---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 04/11/15: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:32 AM - Re: Re: MK 111 rebuild (Patrick Ladd) 2. 04:57 AM - Re: Re: MK 111 rebuild (Eddie) 3. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: MK 111 rebuild (Patrick Ladd) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 (b young) 5. 07:31 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 (Dennis Rowe) 6. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 (Dan Walter) 7. 12:31 PM - Tail Heavy (K I) 8. 02:31 PM - Re: Tail Heavy (Rick Neilsen) 9. 04:56 PM - Re: Tail Heavy (B Young) 10. 05:09 PM - Re: Tail Heavy (John Hauck) 11. 05:14 PM - Rebuilding/modifying my main gear (John Hauck) 12. 07:03 PM - Re: MK 111 rebuild (pipercolt) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:00 AM PST US From: Patrick Ladd Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild <> John, surely the C of G would have been calculated with the battery in position, in flying position before the plane was taken into the air on her first flight. I needed some lead in the nose to bring the C of G between the specified limits on my Xtra. Nothing to do with flying characteristics. If the battery can be moved to produce the correct C of G without adding extra weight somewhere, thats a bonus. Pat -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:38 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild With a steel leg terminating at the midpoint of the gear leg socket, one has effectively constructed a shear at the weakest point of the socket. I haven't paid that much attention to the old solid steel legs. Did not realize they were designed short. Before I would relocate the battery from the CG to the nose I would test fly the airplane. Now that is what I would do if I had an itch to put a heavy battery way up there. Heck, we have had folks haul lead in the nose. Nose down pitch at cruise and full power is the biggest annoyance of a MKIII. Normally, they do not have a CG problem. Adverse pitch down is caused by the high thrust line of the pusher configuration. Can be dealt with by forced trim and aileron adjustment. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pipercolt Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 7:02 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Well John, that does make sense. I live just about 50 airmiles South of your unintended landing at the falls. I think I will install them as they are. I fly off a 2000' grass strip and PLAN on any off field landings. Has anyone moved the battery to the nose section of the plane? I know that is a long way to run the positive cable but It sure would help with the CG. Thanks Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440610#440610 = Photoshare, and much much more: = = = ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:03 AM PST US From: Eddie Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Hi all long time no post from me but still read the list regularly. Like pa t's extra my mk111 classic has lead in the nosecone it is one if the things I am thinking of changing .I figure the battery sits behind the seat at ju st about the cg and if I put it in the nose I can take the same weight of l ead out of there only a few kilos saved but better out the aircraft than in it .people with more experience and knowledge than me are welcome to point out any pitfalls in my thoughts on this Eddie -----Original Message----- From: "Patrick Ladd" Sent: =8E11/=8E04/=8E2015 10:31 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild <> John, surely the C of G would have been calculated with the battery in position, in flying position before the plane was taken into the air on her first flight. I needed some lead in the nose to bring the C of G between the specified limits on my Xtra. Nothing to do with flying characteristics. If the battery can be moved to produce the correct C of G without adding extra weight somewhere, thats a bonus. Pat -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:38 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild With a steel leg terminating at the midpoint of the gear leg socket, one has effectively constructed a shear at the weakest point of the socket. I haven't paid that much attention to the old solid steel legs. Did not realize they were designed short. Before I would relocate the battery from the CG to the nose I would test fly the airplane. Now that is what I would do if I had an itch to put a heavy battery way up there. Heck, we have had folks haul lead in the nose. Nose down pitch at cruise and full power is the biggest annoyance of a MKIII. Normally, they do not have a CG problem. Adverse pitch down is caused by the high thrust line of the pusher configuration. Can be dealt with by forced trim and aileron adjustment. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pipercolt Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 7:02 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Well John, that does make sense. I live just about 50 airmiles South of your unintended landing at the falls. I think I will install them as they are. I fly off a 2000' grass strip and PLAN on any off field landings. Has anyone moved the battery to the nose section of the plane? I know that is a long way to run the positive cable but It sure would help with the CG. Thanks Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440610#440610 = Photoshare, and much much more: = = = ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:31 AM PST US From: Patrick Ladd Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Hi Eddie. just thoughts. i did some experimentation with battery position (and battery come to that) Find something substantial to fix the battery to, and then do the sums. You need something more than a bit of ply to hold the battery in place in a heavy landing, or maybe even in strong turbulence. Better to maybe move the battery forward to a secure location and then fine balance with a small amount of lead. Incidentally I used a racing motorbike battery (Called a RED TOP over here) It had bags of power whereas my first battery went flat if the engine didn`t catch on the first few turns Incidentally I used sheet lead cut to about 3 or 4 inch squares, put them in a stack and drilled two holes right through. I clamped them together with a metal bar across the top drilled to suit the holes in the lead. With a suitable large plate at the other end and a couple of bolts that was it. You can easily add or subtract a single piece of lead when you get to fine tuning. Cheers Pat From: Eddie Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:54 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Hi all long time no post from me but still read the list regularly. Like pat's extra my mk111 classic has lead in the nosecone it is one if the things I am thinking of changing .I figure the battery sits behind the seat at just about the cg and if I put it in the nose I can take the same weight of lead out of there only a few kilos saved but better out the aircraft than in it .people with more experience and knowledge than me are welcome to point out any pitfalls in my thoughts on this Eddie ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: Patrick Ladd Sent: =8E11/=8E04/=8E2015 10:31 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild <> John, surely the C of G would have been calculated with the battery in position, in flying position before the plane was taken into the air on her first flight. I needed some lead in the nose to bring the C of G between the specified limits on my Xtra. Nothing to do with flying characteristics. If the battery can be moved to produce the correct C of G without adding extra weight somewhere, thats a bonus. Pat -----Original Message----- From: John Hauck Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:38 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild With a steel leg terminating at the midpoint of the gear leg socket, one has effectively constructed a shear at the weakest point of the socket. I haven't paid that much attention to the old solid steel legs. Did not realize they were designed short. Before I would relocate the battery from the CG to the nose I would test fly the airplane. Now that is what I would do if I had an itch to put a heavy battery way up there. Heck, we have had folks haul lead in the nose. Nose down pitch at cruise and full power is the biggest annoyance of a MKIII. Normally, they do not have a CG problem. Adverse pitch down is caused by the high thrust line of the pusher configuration. Can be dealt with by forced trim and aileron adjustment. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of pipercolt Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 7:02 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild Well John, that does make sense. I live just about 50 airmiles South of your unintended landing at the falls. I think I will install them as they are. I fly off a 2000' grass strip and PLAN on any off field landings. Has anyone moved the battery to the nose section of the plane? I know that is a long way to run the positive cable but It sure would help with the CG. Thanks Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=440610#440610 = Photoshare, and much much mo - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:47 AM PST US From: "b young" Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 I had my battery up front in my mk III for a while then moved it back... it just seemed to fly better with the cg back.... especially with a passenger. boyd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well John, that does make sense. I live just about 50 airmiles South of your unintended landing at the falls. I think I will install them as they are. I fly off a 2000' grass strip and PLAN on any off field landings. Has anyone moved the battery to the nose section of the plane? I know that is a long way to run the positive cable but It sure would help with the CG. Thanks Bob --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:21 AM PST US From: Dennis Rowe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 If John H has a huge tail wheel, 26 gallon of fuel, and a 912S with a three blade 72" warp drive prop all behind his C/G, and his scrawny little butt in front of the C/G and doesn't need his battery in the nose to balance his Mark3, why does any Mark3 need nose ballast? Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk3, Rotax 670, Leechburg, PA > On Apr 11, 2015, at 10:12 AM, b young wrote: > > > I had my battery up front in my mk III for a while then moved it back... it just seemed to fly better with the cg back.... especially with a passenger. > > boyd > > > > Well John, that does make sense. I live just about 50 airmiles South of your unintended > landing at the falls. I think I will install them as they are. I fly > off a 2000' grass strip and PLAN on any off field landings. Has anyone moved the > battery to the nose section of the plane? I know that is a long way to run > the positive cable but It sure would help with the CG. > Thanks > Bob > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:01 PM PST US From: "Dan Walter" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 I started my Ultrastar out with 3 wieghts in the nose to get it balanced. I took out 1, it flew great. Took out 2, it flew great. Took out 3, it flew great. Never gave it another thought. Dan Walter Ercoupe do not archive do we still do this? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rowe" Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 3 Mgs - 04/10/15 > > If John H has a huge tail wheel, 26 gallon of fuel, and a 912S with a > three blade 72" warp drive prop all behind his C/G, and his scrawny little > butt in front of the C/G and doesn't need his battery in the nose to > balance his Mark3, why does any Mark3 need nose ballast? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:40 PM PST US From: K I Subject: Kolb-List: Tail Heavy =0A =0A Greetings Group=2C=0A =0A After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing=2C=0A I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow=0A hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one=0A thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at ab out=0A 80mph ias. As I come in for landing=2C I can reduce some of the pressure on the=0A forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the =0A adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse =93hands free=94=0A or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on=0A the stick=2C it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous posti ngs by=0A John H. regarding =93nose heavy=94. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly=0A as they are and do not require aggressive trimming. =0A =0A If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III=0A appearing to fly tail heavy=2C and you have been able to resolve the issue =2C let=0A me know what you did.=0A =0A Thanks=2C=0A =0A Kurt=0A =0A Mark III C=0A =0A Sandy=2C Utah=0A =0A ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:39 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Heavy From: Rick Neilsen Kurt There is tail heavy more accurately called beyond the aft CG limits and there is a rigging or trim issue that makes the plane pitch up. You need to know what the problem is before you can resolve the issue. Kolbs have a long fuselage and large tail surfaces so they aren't sensitive to CG (Center of Gravity) changes. Do you know where the CG is for your plane? If you don't you need to know this. My VW powered MKIIC needed the battery in the nose cone to get the CG where it needed to be. Once you have determined that the CG is in the recommended range check that the horizontal stabilizer is mounted according to factory recommendations. I assume you have adjusted the elevator trim lever and maybe the trim spring tension. Reducing the tension will reduce the pitch up condition also assuming it is tight. With every thing else rigged right you get the best performance with the elevator trimmed to set about even with the horizontal stabilizer with a light solo pilot but don't worry about that yet. Check the wing angle of attack for factory recommendations. There is one angle of attack for long gear legs and one for the stock legs with corresponding changes for the horizontal stabilizer. Changes to the flaps and ailerons rigging will have small changes to pitch. I normally like to see flaps and ailerons rigged even with the bottom on the wing. This will give you something to check on. As always worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 3:31 PM, K I wrote: > > > Greetings Group, > > After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally too k > it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I > found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The on e > thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at > about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the > pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. a nd > I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help i t > cruse =9Chands free=9D or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off > the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have > read some previous postings by John H. regarding =9Cnose heavy =9D. His writings > indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressi ve > trimming. > > If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly > tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what > you did. > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > Mark III C > > Sandy, Utah > > * > =========== onics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:54 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Heavy From: B Young Can someone smarter than me explain adjusting aileron and flaps to eliminate having to push forward on the stick to fly level. (Out of trim feels tall heavy) VS Being tail heavy on the scales.... Boyd Y On Apr 11, 2015 1:33 PM, "K I" wrote: > > > Greetings Group, > > After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally too k > it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I > found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The on e > thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at > about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the > pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. a nd > I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help i t > cruse =9Chands free=9D or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off > the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have > read some previous postings by John H. regarding =9Cnose heavy =9D. His writings > indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressi ve > trimming. > > If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly > tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what > you did. > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > Mark III C > > Sandy, Utah > > * > =========== onics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:07 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Tail Heavy During flight, pull the flaps on. That will trim the nose down. If flaps and/or ailerons are reflexed, that pulls the nose up. If flaps and ailerons are trimmed level with the bottom of the wing on the ground, they will be slightly drooped in flight. Air coming over the wings pushed them down. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2015 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Tail Heavy Can someone smarter than me explain adjusting aileron and flaps to eliminate having to push forward on the stick to fly level. (Out of trim feels tall heavy) VS Being tail heavy on the scales.... Boyd Y On Apr 11, 2015 1:33 PM, "K I" wrote: Greetings Group, After buying an older Mark III that needed a LOT of fixing, I finally took it out this year for some Fast Taxi testing and a couple of crow hops. I found it was better to fly the pattern than it was to crow hop it. The one thing I have been having difficulty with is it tends to be tail-heavy at about 80mph ias. As I come in for landing, I can reduce some of the pressure on the forward stick due to the diminishing air speed. Boyd Y. and I changed the adjustment position of the flaps in hopes this would help it cruse =9Chands free=9D or relatively stable flight. Currently when I let off the forward pressure on the stick, it starts to climb right away. I have read some previous postings by John H. regarding =9Cnose heavy=9D. His writings indicate the Kolb designed to fly as they are and do not require aggressive trimming. If anyone has had a similar experience with the Mark III appearing to fly tail heavy, and you have been able to resolve the issue, let me know what you did. Thanks, Kurt Mark III C Sandy, Utah get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:59 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Rebuilding/modifying my main gear Couple weeks ago carried my main gear and gear legs to London, KY, to let the Kolb boys do some work on them. After some hard landings, some extremely hard, a bent a drag strut on the left main gear. Brother Jim suggested adding a 4130 sheet web to help keep the braces in column during my klutzy landings. Even after all these years I still have the ability to screw up pretty badly. Attached are a few before during and after photos of the gear and a few of the Kolb Gang. Brian and Helen met me in Chattanooga, TN, this morning with my new looking main gear. Thanks to all the guys at Kolb for your help. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:10 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: MK 111 rebuild From: "pipercolt" Hi All I just looked in my airframe logbook and it says that if it is flown solo, the pilot must weigh at least 195 lbs. That is with the pizza cutter tail wheel. I am removing that one and installing one that weighs about twice as much. I have not run the numbers yet but I am guessing that the pilot will have to be well over 200 lbs to stay within limits. As far as the battery goes, on my snowmobile forum there is a lot of talk of light weight batteries that work well if it isn't real cold out. 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