Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:38 AM - horiz stab cables (Herb)
2. 08:30 AM - Re: Need measurement on M3X with 912 (Flylawnchairs)
3. 08:47 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (B Young)
4. 10:02 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Leland.Lam)
5. 10:22 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
6. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
7. 11:25 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Richard Pike)
8. 11:30 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Leland.Lam)
9. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
10. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
11. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (John Hauck)
12. 03:11 PM - Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (Dee One)
13. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
14. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Gary Aman)
15. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (John Hauck)
16. 04:35 PM - Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (GARY JINDRA)
17. 04:45 PM - Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (Dee LeBlanc)
18. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb)
19. 08:28 PM - Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering (Duane Ransdell)
20. 08:38 PM - Re: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering (Duane Ransdell)
Message 1
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Subject: | horiz stab cables |
Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-)
I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the
horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have owned
would be easily done...and would not require the contortion that is
necessary to install the tension cables underneath the horiz stab...
Just two tubes on top in compression and tension......that could be
removed by pulling the clevis pins... would necessitate the installation
of two brackets on each side...
Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!!
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Subject: | Re: Need measurement on M3X with 912 |
Hi Jody, I'm building an mx3 also but am in the early stages. Can you tell me the
location of your horizontal stab leading edge tube in relation to where it
is mounted on the boom tube ? There seems to be a discrepancy in my construction
manual ( 2004 ) to newer models. Thanks for any help you can give.
Gene Wilson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444513#444513
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
As I remember the contortions were not that bad... the top only braces,
how big are they? Weight and drag? Is there a length maximum? If a
tube got bent In flight,, (bird strike) would that lock up your elevator
so it would not move? Have you put together a list of pros and cons..
maybe that is what you are doing now.
Kis. Keep it simple
Boyd
On Jul 7, 2015 8:40 AM, "Herb" <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-)
>
> I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the
> horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have owned would
> be easily done...and would not require the contortion that is necessary to
> install the tension cables underneath the horiz stab... Just two tubes on
> top in compression and tension......that could be removed by pulling the
> clevis pins... would necessitate the installation of two brackets on each
> side...
>
>
> Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!!
>
>
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
I just remade my Cable Tabs for the Horizontal Stab. I considered a few option
as I don't need to fold my tail, but in the end I figured Mr. Kolb had a reason
for the cables so I stayed with them. I did change the cable tabs due to the
failures that have occurred. Attached is the print I made and a picture of the
finished tabs.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444517#444517
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tabs_210.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tab_print_985.jpg
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Just thinking out loud...the top tube in tension and compression
certainly works...for Wayne Ison...(UL hall of fame member, likely along
with Homer?) designed his beefiest plane, the V Max that way, and others..
The difference is that the Horizontal stab on the Max does not
hinge...is in one part...and therefore stronger to start with...
this modification would be more simple...than fitting the 4
cables...with adjustable fitting on one or both ends...and could be made
from Cro Molly if necessary... Herb
On 07/07/2015 10:47 AM, B Young wrote:
>
> As I remember the contortions were not that bad... the top only
> braces, how big are they? Weight and drag? Is there a length
> maximum? If a tube got bent In flight,, (bird strike) would that
> lock up your elevator so it would not move? Have you put together a
> list of pros and cons.. maybe that is what you are doing now.
>
> Kis. Keep it simple
>
> Boyd
>
> On Jul 7, 2015 8:40 AM, "Herb" <Herbgh@nctc.com
> <mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com>>
>
>
> Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-)
>
> I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the
> horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have
> owned would be easily done...and would not require the contortion
> that is necessary to install the tension cables underneath the
> horiz stab... Just two tubes on top in compression and
> tension......that could be removed by pulling the clevis pins...
> would necessitate the installation of two brackets on each side...
>
>
> Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!!
>
>
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
> *
>
>
> *
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look
rather sharp ? Herb
On 07/07/2015 12:01 PM, Leland.Lam wrote:
>
> I just remade my Cable Tabs for the Horizontal Stab. I considered a few option
as I don't need to fold my tail, but in the end I figured Mr. Kolb had a reason
for the cables so I stayed with them. I did change the cable tabs due to the
failures that have occurred. Attached is the print I made and a picture of
the finished tabs.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444517#444517
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tabs_210.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tab_print_985.jpg
>
>
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of everything in
the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" chromemoly tube that ties into the tail
wheel support and is welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor
for the whole system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the cables
not only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail
in place.
If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your primary anchor
point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in point several feet
above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage
should it choose to wiggle or shake.
Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual and you'll see what I mean. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as strong. Frankly,
I think this is not a good idea at all. You have completely redesigned
all the inherent strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at least
get this idea looked at by more than one competent engineer before going ahead
with it.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those
to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
"Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look
rather sharp ? Herb "
Herb,
Thank you for pointing that out. I too was somewhat concerned when I made these.
The bends were made in a Mill by bringing the Z axis Knee up into a pseudo forming
die. There is a substantial radius on the far side surface. I was somewhat
concerned about the 70 degree bend and the effect it would have on the overall
strength, so I made an extra tab. I then made a test fixture cable using (7/7)
3/32" galvanized cable. I secured a thimble in place and clamped the assembly
together using my Nico press and two copper sleeves.
I placed this system in tension until failure occurred. The cable broke and the
steel remained unchanged. I then used a hardened steel bolt through the .193
and the .250 holes and placed this in tension until it failed using a 20 ton hydraulic
press. The .193 hole failed not the bend.
I did not perform any test on the 20 or 45 degree tabs.
I realize these test are not completely scientific, but I do feel comfortable knowing
the cable failed long before the tab.
A rough conservative guesstimate since I do not have a strain gauge at my disposal
is the tab failed around 4000 Lbs of force
Leland
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444526#444526
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Too...your stainless brackets are much thicker than normal for these
attach points..
Herb
On 07/07/2015 01:30 PM, Leland.Lam wrote:
>
> "Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look
> rather sharp ? Herb "
>
>
> Herb,
>
> Thank you for pointing that out. I too was somewhat concerned when I made these.
>
> The bends were made in a Mill by bringing the Z axis Knee up into a pseudo forming
die. There is a substantial radius on the far side surface. I was somewhat
concerned about the 70 degree bend and the effect it would have on the overall
strength, so I made an extra tab. I then made a test fixture cable using
(7/7) 3/32" galvanized cable. I secured a thimble in place and clamped the assembly
together using my Nico press and two copper sleeves.
>
> I placed this system in tension until failure occurred. The cable broke and the
steel remained unchanged. I then used a hardened steel bolt through the .193
and the .250 holes and placed this in tension until it failed using a 20 ton
hydraulic press. The .193 hole failed not the bend.
> I did not perform any test on the 20 or 45 degree tabs.
>
> I realize these test are not completely scientific, but I do feel comfortable
knowing the cable failed long before the tab.
>
> A rough conservative guesstimate since I do not have a strain gauge at my disposal
is the tab failed around 4000 Lbs of force
>
>
> Leland
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444526#444526
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Richard
That is why I posted in the first place....Your observations appear
to be on the money...so I will certainly give more thought to the whole
idea...and it was an idea to start...Not going to jump into a
modification without a lot of input...and thought...Herb
On 07/07/2015 01:25 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of everything
in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" chromemoly tube that ties into the tail
wheel support and is welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary
anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the
cables not only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical
tail in place.
>
> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your primary
anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in point several feet
above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage
should it choose to wiggle or shake.
>
> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual and you'll see what I mean. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>
> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as strong.
Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. You have completely redesigned
all the inherent strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at least
get this idea looked at by more than one competent engineer before going
ahead with it.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and
those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
I probably see things a little different than most folks. I
apologize for that.
Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the
Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine
is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've
had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on
the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below
those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads
from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this
point.
Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing".
To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and
horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much
bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail
post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure.
We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices,
etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was
Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of
an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail
boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much
this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can
grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it
laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb
and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post
failures.
Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum
strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt
for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement
required.
I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh
while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII,
breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip
to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what
my MKIII has.
Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning
from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have
certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so
earlier.
I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail
section on a Kolb.
I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's
fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works.
john h
Rock House, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Pike
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
--> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest
point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8"
chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is
welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary
anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high
tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal
tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place.
If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead,
now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum
tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube
where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage
should it choose to wiggle or shake.
Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction
manual and you'll see what I mean.
http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not
nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea
at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent
strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at
least get this idea looked at by more than one competent
engineer before going ahead with it.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy
will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then,
have it your way.'
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
=
Photoshare, and much much more:
=
=
=
Message 12
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Subject: | Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra |
I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a brand-new Rotax
582 in my shop with all the periphials. I'm trying to decide whether to build
an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra with another engine. Given
that more power is always better, I'd like to get your general opinion on whether
the 582 would be sufficient at 1000 pounds take off weight. I know this
depends on many factors, altitude, preferred cruise, grass versus hard surface,
etc. However just want your general opinion. I'll be at sea level on a 4000
foot hard surface primarily. Take off distance and climb rate would be helpful.
Thanks for your time and input,
Dee
--------
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
Thats Why They Call it the Present
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#444539
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long enough to
recall one or two of the incidents...:-)
Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away tail wheel to
caster are the likely culprits. Probably cable stretch
contributed..? I think that replacing the cables top with and bottom
with tubing would stiffen the assy just as well as the additional
bracing... penalty would be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I
want to do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and check/adjust
tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I shall install a safety
strap in case of a failure of the tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has
worried me for years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a
failure...however.... Herb
On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote:
> I probably see things a little different than most folks. I
> apologize for that.
>
> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the
> Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine
> is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've
> had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on
> the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below
> those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads
> from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this
> point.
>
> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing".
> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and
> horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much
> bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail
> post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure.
>
> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices,
> etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was
> Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of
> an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail
> boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much
> this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can
> grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it
> laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb
> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post
> failures.
>
> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum
> strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt
> for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement
> required.
>
> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh
> while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII,
> breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip
> to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what
> my MKIII has.
>
> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning
> from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have
> certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so
> earlier.
>
> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail
> section on a Kolb.
>
> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's
> fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works.
>
> john h
> Rock House, OR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Richard Pike
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
>
> --> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest
> point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8"
> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is
> welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary
> anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high
> tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal
> tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place.
>
> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead,
> now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum
> tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube
> where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage
> should it choose to wiggle or shake.
>
> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction
> manual and you'll see what I mean.
> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>
> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not
> nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea
> at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent
> strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at
> least get this idea looked at by more than one competent
> engineer before going ahead with it.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy
> will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then,
> have it your way.'
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
>
>
> =
> Photoshare, and much much more:
> =
> =
> =
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the tail from the ring to
the tail rod through bolt. Just do it.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
>
> thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long enough to recall one
or two of the incidents...:-)
>
> Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away tail wheel to caster
are the likely culprits. Probably cable stretch contributed..? I think that
replacing the cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the assy
just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would be a bit more drag...
Then again...not what I want to do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable
and check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I shall install
a safety strap in case of a failure of the tensioning bolt.. That little bolt
has worried me for years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a
failure...however.... Herb
>
>> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>> I probably see things a little different than most folks. I
>> apologize for that.
>>
>> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the
>> Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine
>> is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've
>> had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on
>> the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below
>> those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads
>> from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this
>> point.
>>
>> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing".
>> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and
>> horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much
>> bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail
>> post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure.
>>
>> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices,
>> etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was
>> Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of
>> an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail
>> boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much
>> this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can
>> grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it
>> laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb
>> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post
>> failures.
>>
>> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum
>> strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt
>> for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement
>> required.
>>
>> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh
>> while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII,
>> breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip
>> to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what
>> my MKIII has.
>>
>> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning
>> from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have
>> certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so
>> earlier.
>>
>> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail
>> section on a Kolb.
>>
>> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's
>> fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works.
>>
>> john h
>> Rock House, OR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> Richard Pike
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
>>
>> --> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>>
>> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest
>> point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8"
>> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is
>> welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary
>> anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high
>> tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal
>> tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place.
>>
>> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead,
>> now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum
>> tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube
>> where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage
>> should it choose to wiggle or shake.
>>
>> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction
>> manual and you'll see what I mean.
>> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>>
>> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not
>> nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea
>> at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent
>> strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at
>> least get this idea looked at by more than one competent
>> engineer before going ahead with it.
>>
>> --------
>> Richard Pike
>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy
>> will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then,
>> have it your way.'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =
>> Photoshare, and much much more:
>> =
>> =
>> =
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
That sounds like good advice, but I doubt some will hear it.
;-)
john h
Rock House
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Gary Aman
Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
<zeprep251@aol.com>
Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the
tail from the ring to the tail rod through bolt. Just do it.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
>
> thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long
enough to
> recall one or two of the incidents...:-)
>
> Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away
tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably
cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the
cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the
assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would
be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to
do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and
check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I
shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the
tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for
years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a
failure...however.... Herb
>
>> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>> I probably see things a little different than most folks.
I
>> apologize for that.
>>
>> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the
Ultrastar or
>> Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine is is a
different
>> story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've had the tail
post fail 4 or
>> 5 times, usually at the welds on the lower tail boom ring
or the tube
>> separate just below those welds. The reason it failed
was all the
>> side loads from the tail wheel during taxi are
concentrated at this
>> point.
>>
>> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire
bracing".
>> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical
and horizontal
>> stabilizers located where they belong. Not much bracing
power to
>> them, except for those welds at the tail post ring that
harden the
>> tube and assist in failure.
>>
>> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices,
etc., to
>> find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was Dan
Horton, a
>> local builder, that came up with the idea of an external
tail post
>> brace that we welded from the tail boom ring to the
bottom of the
>> tail post. Amazing how much this stiffened the lateral
movement of
>> the tail post. I can grab the top of the upper vertical
stabilizer,
>> shake it laterally, and there is no give. Try that with
your Kolb
>> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post
failures.
>>
>> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum
strap,
>> bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt for
the tail
>> wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement required.
>>
>> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh
while flying
>> passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, breaking
the tail post
>> as I turned onto the ultralight strip to take off. This
MKIII had
>> very low hours, not nearly what my MKIII has.
>>
>> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of
returning from my
>> last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have certainly
put me in a
>> bind had it happened a week or so earlier.
>>
>> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail
section on a
>> Kolb.
>>
>> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary
Haley's fix with
>> aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works.
>>
>> john h
>> Rock House, OR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Richard
>> Pike
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
>>
>> --> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>>
>> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest
point of
>> everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8"
>> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and
is welded
>> to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor
for the whole
>> system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the
cables not
>> only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold
the vertical
>> tail in place.
>>
>> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin
instead, now your
>> primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with
the tie in
>> point several feet above the boom tube where the
horizontal tail can
>> exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or
shake.
>>
>> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the
construction manual
>> and you'll see what I mean.
>> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>>
>> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being
not nearly as
>> strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all.
You have
>> completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of
the tail
>> assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea
looked at by more
>> than one competent engineer before going ahead with it.
>>
>> --------
>> Richard Pike
>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy
will be
>> done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have
it your
>> way.'
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> =
>> Photoshare, and much much more:
>> =
>> =
>> =
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
=
Photoshare, and much much more:
=
=
=
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra |
Hello Dee,
=C2- I have a Mark 111c that I built=C2- with a 582 . Flew it one year
with that engine and found a salvage Mark111 with a 912 ul 80 hp. Switched
the motors=C2- and never regretted it. The 582 will fly the plane okay bu
t with two people=C2- I had to run high rpm to keep the plane flying. Bur
ns lots of fuel that way. 912 burns about 4 gallon per hour, 582 burned 5 1
/2 to 6 gallon two people. 912 is also 4 stroke, no mixing oil.Love the Rot
ax 912.=C2-Gary JindraMark111c=C2- 370 hrs
From: Dee One <leblancds@cox.net>
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 6:11 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra
I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a brand-new
Rotax 582 in my shop with all the periphials.=C2- I'm trying to decide w
hether to build an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra with anoth
er engine. Given that more power is always better, I'd like to get your gen
eral opinion on whether the 582 would be sufficient at 1000 pounds take off
weight. I know this depends on many factors, altitude, preferred cruise, g
rass versus hard surface, etc. However just want your general opinion. I'll
be at sea level on a 4000 foot hard surface primarily. Take off distance a
nd climb rate would be helpful.
Thanks for your time and input,
Dee
--------
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s Why They Call it the Present
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#444539
S -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra |
Good comparison . . . thanks for your input . . . I=99m looking
at the Xtra on Barnstormers now (80hp Jaburi; but it=99s been
wreaked). Bought my current MkIII from Frank Clark in Washington State
. . . he disguised the damage and now I have a unusable Mk3 cage and a
new motor (582) on my hands.
Dee LeBlanc
leblancds@cox.net
cell 225-802-1038
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That=99s Why They Call it the Present
> On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:31 PM, GARY JINDRA <gajindra@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Hello Dee,
> I have a Mark 111c that I built with a 582 . Flew it one year with
that engine and found a salvage Mark111 with a 912 ul 80 hp. Switched
the motors and never regretted it. The 582 will fly the plane okay but
with two people I had to run high rpm to keep the plane flying. Burns
lots of fuel that way. 912 burns about 4 gallon per hour, 582 burned 5
1/2 to 6 gallon two people. 912 is also 4 stroke, no mixing oil.Love the
Rotax 912.
>
> Gary Jindra
> Mark111c 370 hrs
> From: Dee One <leblancds@cox.net>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 6:11 PM
> Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra
>
<mailto:leblancds@cox.net>>
>
> I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a
brand-new Rotax 582 in my shop with all the periphials. I'm trying to
decide whether to build an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra
with another engine. Given that more power is always better, I'd like to
get your general opinion on whether the 582 would be sufficient at 1000
pounds take off weight. I know this depends on many factors, altitude,
preferred cruise, grass versus hard surface, etc. However just want your
general opinion. I'll be at sea level on a 4000 foot hard surface
primarily. Take off distance and climb rate would be helpful.
>
> Thanks for your time and input,
> Dee
>
> --------
> The Past is History
> The Future is a Mystery
> Today is a Gift
> That=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s Why They Call it the Present
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#44453or?Kolb-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Lis>
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#444539>http://foru=C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - List Contribution Web Site
-http://www.matronic==================
=
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://forums.matronics.com/> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/> <http://forums.matronics.com/>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>
>
<http://forums.matronics.com/>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List>
<http://www.matronics.com/contribution>
>
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Re: horiz stab cables |
anyone ever talk to Bryan about fixing this? It is certainly a
problem...I know that Bryan is not "net Worthy"... :-) Herb
On 07/07/2015 06:34 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> That sounds like good advice, but I doubt some will hear it.
> ;-)
>
> john h
> Rock House
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Gary Aman
> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 5:02 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
>
> <zeprep251@aol.com>
>
> Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the
> tail from the ring to the tail rod through bolt. Just do it.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long
> enough to
>> recall one or two of the incidents...:-)
>>
>> Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away
> tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably
> cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the
> cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the
> assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would
> be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to
> do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and
> check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I
> shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the
> tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for
> years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a
> failure...however.... Herb
>>> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>> I probably see things a little different than most folks.
> I
>>> apologize for that.
>>>
>>> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the
> Ultrastar or
>>> Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine is is a
> different
>>> story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've had the tail
> post fail 4 or
>>> 5 times, usually at the welds on the lower tail boom ring
> or the tube
>>> separate just below those welds. The reason it failed
> was all the
>>> side loads from the tail wheel during taxi are
> concentrated at this
>>> point.
>>>
>>> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire
> bracing".
>>> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical
> and horizontal
>>> stabilizers located where they belong. Not much bracing
> power to
>>> them, except for those welds at the tail post ring that
> harden the
>>> tube and assist in failure.
>>>
>>> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices,
> etc., to
>>> find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was Dan
> Horton, a
>>> local builder, that came up with the idea of an external
> tail post
>>> brace that we welded from the tail boom ring to the
> bottom of the
>>> tail post. Amazing how much this stiffened the lateral
> movement of
>>> the tail post. I can grab the top of the upper vertical
> stabilizer,
>>> shake it laterally, and there is no give. Try that with
> your Kolb
>>> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post
> failures.
>>> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum
> strap,
>>> bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt for
> the tail
>>> wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement required.
>>>
>>> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh
> while flying
>>> passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, breaking
> the tail post
>>> as I turned onto the ultralight strip to take off. This
> MKIII had
>>> very low hours, not nearly what my MKIII has.
>>>
>>> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of
> returning from my
>>> last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have certainly
> put me in a
>>> bind had it happened a week or so earlier.
>>>
>>> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail
> section on a
>>> Kolb.
>>>
>>> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary
> Haley's fix with
>>> aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works.
>>>
>>> john h
>>> Rock House, OR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Richard
>>> Pike
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM
>>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables
>>>
>>> --> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>>>
>>> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest
> point of
>>> everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8"
>>> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and
> is welded
>>> to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor
> for the whole
>>> system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the
> cables not
>>> only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold
> the vertical
>>> tail in place.
>>>
>>> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin
> instead, now your
>>> primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with
> the tie in
>>> point several feet above the boom tube where the
> horizontal tail can
>>> exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or
> shake.
>>> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the
> construction manual
>>> and you'll see what I mean.
>>> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
>>>
>>> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being
> not nearly as
>>> strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all.
> You have
>>> completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of
> the tail
>>> assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea
> looked at by more
>>> than one competent engineer before going ahead with it.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Richard Pike
>>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>>> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy
> will be
>>> done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have
> it your
>>> way.'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =
>>> Photoshare, and much much more:
>>> =
>>> =
>>> =
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> =
> Photoshare, and much much more:
> =
> =
> =
>
>
Message 19
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|
Subject: | Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering |
Hi Everyone,
There will be Pizza Hut pizza delivered this coming Friday evening around
6:30 PM. Coffee and donuts Saturday morning. There will be several people
in attendance from all over Nebraska and the surrounding area.
Hope to see you all there.
Sincerely,
Duane Ransdell
Message 20
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|
Subject: | Re: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering |
I sent this a little quicker than I should have. See attached flyer for
details...
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Duane Ransdell <radiobluebook@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> There will be Pizza Hut pizza delivered this coming Friday evening around
> 6:30 PM. Coffee and donuts Saturday morning. There will be several people
> in attendance from all over Nebraska and the surrounding area.
>
> Hope to see you all there.
>
> Sincerely,
> Duane Ransdell
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
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