---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 07/07/15: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:38 AM - horiz stab cables (Herb) 2. 08:30 AM - Re: Need measurement on M3X with 912 (Flylawnchairs) 3. 08:47 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (B Young) 4. 10:02 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Leland.Lam) 5. 10:22 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 6. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 7. 11:25 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Richard Pike) 8. 11:30 AM - Re: horiz stab cables (Leland.Lam) 9. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 10. 01:01 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 11. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (John Hauck) 12. 03:11 PM - Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (Dee One) 13. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 14. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Gary Aman) 15. 04:35 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (John Hauck) 16. 04:35 PM - Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (GARY JINDRA) 17. 04:45 PM - Re: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra (Dee LeBlanc) 18. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: horiz stab cables (Herb) 19. 08:28 PM - Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering (Duane Ransdell) 20. 08:38 PM - Re: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering (Duane Ransdell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:28 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Kolb-List: horiz stab cables Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-) I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have owned would be easily done...and would not require the contortion that is necessary to install the tension cables underneath the horiz stab... Just two tubes on top in compression and tension......that could be removed by pulling the clevis pins... would necessitate the installation of two brackets on each side... Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:38 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Need measurement on M3X with 912 From: "Flylawnchairs" Hi Jody, I'm building an mx3 also but am in the early stages. Can you tell me the location of your horizontal stab leading edge tube in relation to where it is mounted on the boom tube ? There seems to be a discrepancy in my construction manual ( 2004 ) to newer models. Thanks for any help you can give. Gene Wilson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444513#444513 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: horiz stab cables From: B Young As I remember the contortions were not that bad... the top only braces, how big are they? Weight and drag? Is there a length maximum? If a tube got bent In flight,, (bird strike) would that lock up your elevator so it would not move? Have you put together a list of pros and cons.. maybe that is what you are doing now. Kis. Keep it simple Boyd On Jul 7, 2015 8:40 AM, "Herb" wrote: > > > Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-) > > I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the > horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have owned would > be easily done...and would not require the contortion that is necessary to > install the tension cables underneath the horiz stab... Just two tubes on > top in compression and tension......that could be removed by pulling the > clevis pins... would necessitate the installation of two brackets on each > side... > > > Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!! > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:14 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables From: "Leland.Lam" I just remade my Cable Tabs for the Horizontal Stab. I considered a few option as I don't need to fold my tail, but in the end I figured Mr. Kolb had a reason for the cables so I stayed with them. I did change the cable tabs due to the failures that have occurred. Attached is the print I made and a picture of the finished tabs. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444517#444517 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tabs_210.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tab_print_985.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:18 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: horiz stab cables Just thinking out loud...the top tube in tension and compression certainly works...for Wayne Ison...(UL hall of fame member, likely along with Homer?) designed his beefiest plane, the V Max that way, and others.. The difference is that the Horizontal stab on the Max does not hinge...is in one part...and therefore stronger to start with... this modification would be more simple...than fitting the 4 cables...with adjustable fitting on one or both ends...and could be made from Cro Molly if necessary... Herb On 07/07/2015 10:47 AM, B Young wrote: > > As I remember the contortions were not that bad... the top only > braces, how big are they? Weight and drag? Is there a length > maximum? If a tube got bent In flight,, (bird strike) would that > lock up your elevator so it would not move? Have you put together a > list of pros and cons.. maybe that is what you are doing now. > > Kis. Keep it simple > > Boyd > > On Jul 7, 2015 8:40 AM, "Herb" > wrote: > > > > > > Just soliciting opinions... and I know the danger in that!!! :-) > > I can see that using two aluminum tubes to brace the top of the > horizontal stab as is done with the two Mini Maxes that I have > owned would be easily done...and would not require the contortion > that is necessary to install the tension cables underneath the > horiz stab... Just two tubes on top in compression and > tension......that could be removed by pulling the clevis pins... > would necessitate the installation of two brackets on each side... > > > Herb ...should have been flying the Firefly by now..!!! > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:12 AM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look rather sharp ? Herb On 07/07/2015 12:01 PM, Leland.Lam wrote: > > I just remade my Cable Tabs for the Horizontal Stab. I considered a few option as I don't need to fold my tail, but in the end I figured Mr. Kolb had a reason for the cables so I stayed with them. I did change the cable tabs due to the failures that have occurred. Attached is the print I made and a picture of the finished tabs. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444517#444517 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tabs_210.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/horizontal_tab_print_985.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:43 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables From: "Richard Pike" Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place. If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or shake. Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual and you'll see what I mean. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea looked at by more than one competent engineer before going ahead with it. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:56 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables From: "Leland.Lam" "Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look rather sharp ? Herb " Herb, Thank you for pointing that out. I too was somewhat concerned when I made these. The bends were made in a Mill by bringing the Z axis Knee up into a pseudo forming die. There is a substantial radius on the far side surface. I was somewhat concerned about the 70 degree bend and the effect it would have on the overall strength, so I made an extra tab. I then made a test fixture cable using (7/7) 3/32" galvanized cable. I secured a thimble in place and clamped the assembly together using my Nico press and two copper sleeves. I placed this system in tension until failure occurred. The cable broke and the steel remained unchanged. I then used a hardened steel bolt through the .193 and the .250 holes and placed this in tension until it failed using a 20 ton hydraulic press. The .193 hole failed not the bend. I did not perform any test on the 20 or 45 degree tabs. I realize these test are not completely scientific, but I do feel comfortable knowing the cable failed long before the tab. A rough conservative guesstimate since I do not have a strain gauge at my disposal is the tab failed around 4000 Lbs of force Leland Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444526#444526 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:06 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables Too...your stainless brackets are much thicker than normal for these attach points.. Herb On 07/07/2015 01:30 PM, Leland.Lam wrote: > > "Looking at the picture...what kind of bends did you make...The look > rather sharp ? Herb " > > > Herb, > > Thank you for pointing that out. I too was somewhat concerned when I made these. > > The bends were made in a Mill by bringing the Z axis Knee up into a pseudo forming die. There is a substantial radius on the far side surface. I was somewhat concerned about the 70 degree bend and the effect it would have on the overall strength, so I made an extra tab. I then made a test fixture cable using (7/7) 3/32" galvanized cable. I secured a thimble in place and clamped the assembly together using my Nico press and two copper sleeves. > > I placed this system in tension until failure occurred. The cable broke and the steel remained unchanged. I then used a hardened steel bolt through the .193 and the .250 holes and placed this in tension until it failed using a 20 ton hydraulic press. The .193 hole failed not the bend. > I did not perform any test on the 20 or 45 degree tabs. > > I realize these test are not completely scientific, but I do feel comfortable knowing the cable failed long before the tab. > > A rough conservative guesstimate since I do not have a strain gauge at my disposal is the tab failed around 4000 Lbs of force > > > Leland > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444526#444526 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:14 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables Richard That is why I posted in the first place....Your observations appear to be on the money...so I will certainly give more thought to the whole idea...and it was an idea to start...Not going to jump into a modification without a lot of input...and thought...Herb On 07/07/2015 01:25 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place. > > If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or shake. > > Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual and you'll see what I mean. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html > > I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea looked at by more than one competent engineer before going ahead with it. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables I probably see things a little different than most folks. I apologize for that. Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this point. Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing". To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure. We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices, etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post failures. Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement required. I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what my MKIII has. Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so earlier. I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail section on a Kolb. I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works. john h Rock House, OR -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables --> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place. If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or shake. Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual and you'll see what I mean. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea looked at by more than one competent engineer before going ahead with it. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.' Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 = Photoshare, and much much more: = = = ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:40 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra From: "Dee One" I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a brand-new Rotax 582 in my shop with all the periphials. I'm trying to decide whether to build an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra with another engine. Given that more power is always better, I'd like to get your general opinion on whether the 582 would be sufficient at 1000 pounds take off weight. I know this depends on many factors, altitude, preferred cruise, grass versus hard surface, etc. However just want your general opinion. I'll be at sea level on a 4000 foot hard surface primarily. Take off distance and climb rate would be helpful. Thanks for your time and input, Dee -------- The Past is History The Future is a Mystery Today is a Gift Thats Why They Call it the Present Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#444539 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:39 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long enough to recall one or two of the incidents...:-) Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a failure...however.... Herb On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote: > I probably see things a little different than most folks. I > apologize for that. > > Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the > Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine > is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've > had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on > the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below > those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads > from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this > point. > > Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing". > To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and > horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much > bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail > post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure. > > We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices, > etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was > Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of > an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail > boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much > this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can > grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it > laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb > and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post > failures. > > Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum > strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt > for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement > required. > > I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh > while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, > breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip > to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what > my MKIII has. > > Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning > from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have > certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so > earlier. > > I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail > section on a Kolb. > > I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's > fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works. > > john h > Rock House, OR > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Richard Pike > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables > > --> > > Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest > point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" > chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is > welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary > anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high > tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal > tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place. > > If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, > now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum > tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube > where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage > should it choose to wiggle or shake. > > Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction > manual and you'll see what I mean. > http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html > > I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not > nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea > at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent > strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at > least get this idea looked at by more than one competent > engineer before going ahead with it. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy > will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, > have it your way.' > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 > > > = > Photoshare, and much much more: > = > = > = > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables From: Gary Aman Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the tail from the ring to the tail rod through bolt. Just do it. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb wrote: > > > thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long enough to recall one or two of the incidents...:-) > > Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a failure...however.... Herb > >> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote: >> I probably see things a little different than most folks. I >> apologize for that. >> >> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the >> Ultrastar or Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine >> is is a different story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've >> had the tail post fail 4 or 5 times, usually at the welds on >> the lower tail boom ring or the tube separate just below >> those welds. The reason it failed was all the side loads >> from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this >> point. >> >> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing". >> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and >> horizontal stabilizers located where they belong. Not much >> bracing power to them, except for those welds at the tail >> post ring that harden the tube and assist in failure. >> >> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices, >> etc., to find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was >> Dan Horton, a local builder, that came up with the idea of >> an external tail post brace that we welded from the tail >> boom ring to the bottom of the tail post. Amazing how much >> this stiffened the lateral movement of the tail post. I can >> grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, shake it >> laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb >> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post >> failures. >> >> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum >> strap, bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt >> for the tail wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement >> required. >> >> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh >> while flying passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, >> breaking the tail post as I turned onto the ultralight strip >> to take off. This MKIII had very low hours, not nearly what >> my MKIII has. >> >> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning >> from my last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have >> certainly put me in a bind had it happened a week or so >> earlier. >> >> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail >> section on a Kolb. >> >> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's >> fix with aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works. >> >> john h >> Rock House, OR >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> Richard Pike >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables >> >> --> >> >> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest >> point of everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" >> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is >> welded to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary >> anchor for the whole system, which is kept at a high >> tension. Therefore, the cables not only hold the horizontal >> tail in place, they also hold the vertical tail in place. >> >> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, >> now your primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum >> tube with the tie in point several feet above the boom tube >> where the horizontal tail can exert substantial leverage >> should it choose to wiggle or shake. >> >> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction >> manual and you'll see what I mean. >> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html >> >> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not >> nearly as strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea >> at all. You have completely redesigned all the inherent >> strength out of the tail assembly. I encourage you to at >> least get this idea looked at by more than one competent >> engineer before going ahead with it. >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy >> will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, >> have it your way.' >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> Photoshare, and much much more: >> = >> = >> = >> >> >> > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:09 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables That sounds like good advice, but I doubt some will hear it. ;-) john h Rock House -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Aman Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the tail from the ring to the tail rod through bolt. Just do it. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb wrote: > > > thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long enough to > recall one or two of the incidents...:-) > > Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a failure...however.... Herb > >> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote: >> I probably see things a little different than most folks. I >> apologize for that. >> >> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the Ultrastar or >> Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine is is a different >> story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've had the tail post fail 4 or >> 5 times, usually at the welds on the lower tail boom ring or the tube >> separate just below those welds. The reason it failed was all the >> side loads from the tail wheel during taxi are concentrated at this >> point. >> >> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire bracing". >> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical and horizontal >> stabilizers located where they belong. Not much bracing power to >> them, except for those welds at the tail post ring that harden the >> tube and assist in failure. >> >> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices, etc., to >> find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was Dan Horton, a >> local builder, that came up with the idea of an external tail post >> brace that we welded from the tail boom ring to the bottom of the >> tail post. Amazing how much this stiffened the lateral movement of >> the tail post. I can grab the top of the upper vertical stabilizer, >> shake it laterally, and there is no give. Try that with your Kolb >> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post failures. >> >> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum strap, >> bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt for the tail >> wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement required. >> >> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh while flying >> passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, breaking the tail post >> as I turned onto the ultralight strip to take off. This MKIII had >> very low hours, not nearly what my MKIII has. >> >> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of returning from my >> last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have certainly put me in a >> bind had it happened a week or so earlier. >> >> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail section on a >> Kolb. >> >> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary Haley's fix with >> aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works. >> >> john h >> Rock House, OR >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard >> Pike >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables >> >> --> >> >> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest point of >> everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" >> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and is welded >> to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor for the whole >> system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the cables not >> only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold the vertical >> tail in place. >> >> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin instead, now your >> primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with the tie in >> point several feet above the boom tube where the horizontal tail can >> exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or shake. >> >> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the construction manual >> and you'll see what I mean. >> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html >> >> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being not nearly as >> strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. You have >> completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of the tail >> assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea looked at by more >> than one competent engineer before going ahead with it. >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be >> done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your >> way.' >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> Photoshare, and much much more: >> = >> = >> = >> >> >> > > > > > = Photoshare, and much much more: = = = ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:13 PM PST US From: GARY JINDRA Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra Hello Dee, =C2- I have a Mark 111c that I built=C2- with a 582 . Flew it one year with that engine and found a salvage Mark111 with a 912 ul 80 hp. Switched the motors=C2- and never regretted it. The 582 will fly the plane okay bu t with two people=C2- I had to run high rpm to keep the plane flying. Bur ns lots of fuel that way. 912 burns about 4 gallon per hour, 582 burned 5 1 /2 to 6 gallon two people. 912 is also 4 stroke, no mixing oil.Love the Rot ax 912.=C2-Gary JindraMark111c=C2- 370 hrs From: Dee One To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 6:11 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a brand-new Rotax 582 in my shop with all the periphials.=C2- I'm trying to decide w hether to build an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra with anoth er engine. Given that more power is always better, I'd like to get your gen eral opinion on whether the 582 would be sufficient at 1000 pounds take off weight. I know this depends on many factors, altitude, preferred cruise, g rass versus hard surface, etc. However just want your general opinion. I'll be at sea level on a 4000 foot hard surface primarily. Take off distance a nd climb rate would be helpful. Thanks for your time and input, Dee -------- The Past is History The Future is a Mystery Today is a Gift That=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s Why They Call it the Present Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#444539 S - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:50 PM PST US From: Dee LeBlanc Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra Good comparison . . . thanks for your input . . . I=99m looking at the Xtra on Barnstormers now (80hp Jaburi; but it=99s been wreaked). Bought my current MkIII from Frank Clark in Washington State . . . he disguised the damage and now I have a unusable Mk3 cage and a new motor (582) on my hands. Dee LeBlanc leblancds@cox.net cell 225-802-1038 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Past is History The Future is a Mystery Today is a Gift That=99s Why They Call it the Present > On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:31 PM, GARY JINDRA wrote: > > Hello Dee, > I have a Mark 111c that I built with a 582 . Flew it one year with that engine and found a salvage Mark111 with a 912 ul 80 hp. Switched the motors and never regretted it. The 582 will fly the plane okay but with two people I had to run high rpm to keep the plane flying. Burns lots of fuel that way. 912 burns about 4 gallon per hour, 582 burned 5 1/2 to 6 gallon two people. 912 is also 4 stroke, no mixing oil.Love the Rotax 912. > > Gary Jindra > Mark111c 370 hrs > From: Dee One > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 6:11 PM > Subject: Kolb-List: Rotax 582 Performance on Xtra > > > > I would like your experience to help me make a decision. I have a brand-new Rotax 582 in my shop with all the periphials. I'm trying to decide whether to build an Xtra and install this 582 or purchase an Xtra with another engine. Given that more power is always better, I'd like to get your general opinion on whether the 582 would be sufficient at 1000 pounds take off weight. I know this depends on many factors, altitude, preferred cruise, grass versus hard surface, etc. However just want your general opinion. I'll be at sea level on a 4000 foot hard surface primarily. Take off distance and climb rate would be helpful. > > Thanks for your time and input, > Dee > > -------- > The Past is History > The Future is a Mystery > Today is a Gift > That=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s Why They Call it the Present > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444539#44453or?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Lis> http://foru=C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - List Contribution Web Site -http://www.matronic================== = > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:55 PM PST US From: Herb Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables anyone ever talk to Bryan about fixing this? It is certainly a problem...I know that Bryan is not "net Worthy"... :-) Herb On 07/07/2015 06:34 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > That sounds like good advice, but I doubt some will hear it. > ;-) > > john h > Rock House > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Gary Aman > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 5:02 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables > > > > Just take a half hour and install flat strap braces on the > tail from the ring to the tail rod through bolt. Just do it. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 7, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Herb wrote: >> >> >> thanks for the refresher on your failures...been here long > enough to >> recall one or two of the incidents...:-) >> >> Side loads and hitting the rudder to get the break away > tail wheel to caster are the likely culprits. Probably > cable stretch contributed..? I think that replacing the > cables top with and bottom with tubing would stiffen the > assy just as well as the additional bracing... penalty would > be a bit more drag... Then again...not what I want to > do....so....I shall go with a bit heavier cable and > check/adjust tension as part of pre flight.. secondly , I > shall install a safety strap in case of a failure of the > tensioning bolt.. That little bolt has worried me for > years!! same with the top one ...:-) Likely never been a > failure...however.... Herb >>> On 07/07/2015 04:38 PM, John Hauck wrote: >>> I probably see things a little different than most folks. > I >>> apologize for that. >>> >>> Never had a problem with tail wires and tail post on the > Ultrastar or >>> Firestar, but the MKIII configured the way mine is is a > different >>> story. During the last 3,000+ hours I've had the tail > post fail 4 or >>> 5 times, usually at the welds on the lower tail boom ring > or the tube >>> separate just below those welds. The reason it failed > was all the >>> side loads from the tail wheel during taxi are > concentrated at this >>> point. >>> >>> Most folks refer to the tail wires at "tail wire > bracing". >>> To me they are actually spacers that keep the vertical > and horizontal >>> stabilizers located where they belong. Not much bracing > power to >>> them, except for those welds at the tail post ring that > harden the >>> tube and assist in failure. >>> >>> We experimented many times with welded gussets, splices, > etc., to >>> find a remedy for my tail post failures, but it was Dan > Horton, a >>> local builder, that came up with the idea of an external > tail post >>> brace that we welded from the tail boom ring to the > bottom of the >>> tail post. Amazing how much this stiffened the lateral > movement of >>> the tail post. I can grab the top of the upper vertical > stabilizer, >>> shake it laterally, and there is no give. Try that with > your Kolb >>> and see the results. Since this fix, no more tail post > failures. >>> Several others have borrowed our fix. Most use aluminum > strap, >>> bolting to the tail boom ring and the attachment bolt for > the tail >>> wheel strut. No welding and fabric replacement required. >>> >>> I remember one year, back in the early 1990's at Oshkosh > while flying >>> passengers in the Kolb Aircraft Company MKIII, breaking > the tail post >>> as I turned onto the ultralight strip to take off. This > MKIII had >>> very low hours, not nearly what my MKIII has. >>> >>> Another time my tail post broke within an hour of > returning from my >>> last flight to Alaska in 2004. That would have certainly > put me in a >>> bind had it happened a week or so earlier. >>> >>> I would not modify and fly with rigid braces on the tail > section on a >>> Kolb. >>> >>> I found some photos of my tail post and one of Gary > Haley's fix with >>> aluminum strip and a couple bolts. It works. >>> >>> john h >>> Rock House, OR >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf > Of Richard >>> Pike >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 12:25 PM >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: horiz stab cables >>> >>> --> >>> >>> Just thinking here - With the cable method, the strongest > point of >>> everything in the 4 cable system is the lower 7/8" >>> chromemoly tube that ties into the tail wheel support and > is welded >>> to the aft boom ring. This provides the primary anchor > for the whole >>> system, which is kept at a high tension. Therefore, the > cables not >>> only hold the horizontal tail in place, they also hold > the vertical >>> tail in place. >>> >>> If you tied every thing into the upper vertical fin > instead, now your >>> primary anchor point becomes a 1" .058 aluminum tube with > the tie in >>> point several feet above the boom tube where the > horizontal tail can >>> exert substantial leverage should it choose to wiggle or > shake. >>> Check out this diagram listed as Page 20 in the > construction manual >>> and you'll see what I mean. >>> http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html >>> >>> I am not an engineer, but your idea strikes me as being > not nearly as >>> strong. Frankly, I think this is not a good idea at all. > You have >>> completely redesigned all the inherent strength out of > the tail >>> assembly. I encourage you to at least get this idea > looked at by more >>> than one competent engineer before going ahead with it. >>> >>> -------- >>> Richard Pike >>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>> There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy > will be >>> done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have > it your >>> way.' >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=444525#444525 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> Photoshare, and much much more: >>> = >>> = >>> = >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > = > Photoshare, and much much more: > = > = > = > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:32 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering From: Duane Ransdell Hi Everyone, There will be Pizza Hut pizza delivered this coming Friday evening around 6:30 PM. Coffee and donuts Saturday morning. There will be several people in attendance from all over Nebraska and the surrounding area. Hope to see you all there. Sincerely, Duane Ransdell ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering From: Duane Ransdell I sent this a little quicker than I should have. See attached flyer for details... On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Duane Ransdell wrote: > Hi Everyone, > There will be Pizza Hut pizza delivered this coming Friday evening around > 6:30 PM. Coffee and donuts Saturday morning. There will be several people > in attendance from all over Nebraska and the surrounding area. > > Hope to see you all there. > > Sincerely, > Duane Ransdell > > * > > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.