---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/14/16: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:56 AM - Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (Richard Pike) 2. 07:06 AM - Re: AOA (John Hauck) 3. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (John Hauck) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (Rex Rodebush) 5. 12:58 PM - Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (Richard Pike) 6. 01:20 PM - Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (George Alexander) 7. 06:03 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (Jack B. Hart) 8. 06:04 PM - Re: AOA (kinne russ) 9. 06:10 PM - Re: AOA (Jack B. Hart) 10. 06:31 PM - Re: AOA (Larry Cottrell) 11. 07:00 PM - Re: AOA (John Hauck) 12. 07:02 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (John Hauck) 13. 07:21 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (John Hauck) 14. 07:22 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (John Hauck) 15. 07:32 PM - Re: AOA (Charlie England) 16. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals (Larry Cottrell) 17. 07:39 PM - Re: AOA (John Hauck) 18. 08:01 PM - Re: AOA (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:22 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals From: "Richard Pike" Rex Rodebush wrote: > I've got gap seals on everything but the horiz. stab. to fuselage tube. My M3X flies good it seems to me. What would be the expected improvement if I add the stab. to tube seal? I had two reasons: one is that with a heavy passenger, my MKIII did not have enough elevator authority at max forward CG and minimum airspeeds. The vortex generators on the wings give the ability to fly an approach at 45 mph with a 26 mph stall speed, even with a passenger. But at those speeds and CG conditions, when it comes time to flare, pulling the stick back did not raise the nose, the AOA did not change with elevator movement. However, gap sealing the elevators to the horizontal stab, sealing the stab to the fuslelage, and adding VG's to the underside of the stab gave more control authority in that particular situation, the elevators became more effective. The second is that many years ago I got obsessive about removing all the drag I could, I wanted to be able to cruise at 65 with the lowest possible throttle setting, and any sort of gap like that adds drag. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451969#451969 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:20 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: AOA Don't know if I can hold my breath in anticipation that long or not. Turning blue at hauck's holler. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama PS: Why not kill two experiments at one time. Stick a piece of yarn on the Lexan and see if it will work. From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:04 AM Subject: Kolb-List: AOA https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s Here is a link with an even cheaper AOA gage that I found on You Tube. I think it is worth watching. I do believe that one could save even more weight and money over the one that I built. Granted mine only cost a bit of my time, a bolt and two pop rivets. This one could be had for the cost of a piece of twine stuck on the side of your lexan. In any case I found it very informative. The weather is being very nice to us by rain and snow, both highly unusual in this part of the country. I may not be able to do any testing on mine before Feb. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:14 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals Richard: Did you make one change at a time and test after each change? Where did you place the vg's on the underside of the horizontal stabilizer? I didn't realize how much the flaps stole air from the elevators until I did a little experiment with a 220 lb passenger. I had been demonstrating some aggressive stalls, dives, and pull outs, when I got the idea to try it with full flaps. On my Kolb MKIII that is 40 degrees. Pushed the nose straight down, hit 85 mph, tried to do an abrupt pull out and the aircraft never changed attitude with the stick full back. Got rid of the flaps and she pulled right out. After that experiment I could then understand the possibility of running out of elevator at extremely slow speeds with a heavy passenger on landing. I have decided to install vg's on my MKIII. Now I need to buy some, probably from John Gilpin . Dan Horton, one of my airplane buddies has said he will give me a hand with the install. How far back from the leading edge do you place the front edge of the vg for best all around results. Too cold to play airplane at Gantt International Airport, Alabama. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:56 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals --> Rex Rodebush wrote: > I've got gap seals on everything but the horiz. stab. to fuselage tube. My M3X flies good it seems to me. What would be the expected improvement if I add the stab. to tube seal? I had two reasons: one is that with a heavy passenger, my MKIII did not have enough elevator authority at max forward CG and minimum airspeeds. The vortex generators on the wings give the ability to fly an approach at 45 mph with a 26 mph stall speed, even with a passenger. But at those speeds and CG conditions, when it comes time to flare, pulling the stick back did not raise the nose, the AOA did not change with elevator movement. However, gap sealing the elevators to the horizontal stab, sealing the stab to the fuslelage, and adding VG's to the underside of the stab gave more control authority in that particular situation, the elevators became more effective. The second is that many years ago I got obsessive about removing all the drag I could, I wanted to be able to cruise at 65 with the lowest possible throttle setting, and any sort of gap like that adds drag. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451969#451969 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:55 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals From: "Rex Rodebush" I don't have V.G.'s but was able to do a full stall landing with a 220# passenger. I do have the larger horizontal stabilizer that was called for shortly after the original Xtra came out. That may be a factor. The drag reduction makes good sense so I'll probably go ahead and put the seals on. Thanks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451974#451974 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:09 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals From: "Richard Pike" John; it's been a while, but as I remember, I put the VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab, test flew it, made a lot of landings, ssaw improvement. Then I put gap seals between the stab & the elevator, same tests, saw more improvement. Then I added the gap seal between the stab and the fuselage, did not notice much difference. The VG's on the underside of the stab are in a straight line; the innermost one has it's back end at 7" aft of the leading edge, measured with the ruler parallel to the boom tube. The outermost one is at the hinge line and 7" from the outboard end. I have no idea if this location is optimum, I had read that 10% of chord is a good rule of thumb, so I put them there, did not experiment with moving them around. Jack Hart has his right behind the leading edge: http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly62.html This page shows them at a fixed distance ahead of the hinge line http://www.vortex-generators.com/installation-of-vortex-generators.html as does this one http://www.speedcomfly.com/sito-ecommerce/file_info/vortex.pdf If you would like to try several different locations to find the optimum and let us know, I will gladly move mine to a better position! My web pages are now on George Alexander's web site, where I've got some fairly extensive details on how I did the VG thing. Here is the one for the MKIII: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Vortex%20Generators.html Here is the one for the FSII: some of the data overlaps a bit and it is also useful. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/FSII%20Vortex%20Generators.html Something you might think of trying, - and I enjoyed doing the process - take your VG's and tape them on and try different measurements. I would use little squares of that aluminum metal duct tape, cut a slot in the middle of the square and poke the VG through, apply to wing, go fly, make notes. Move them to a different spot and do it again. That is how I came to the conclusion as to where they worked best on my airplane. When you hit the sweet spot, you can tell. It is subtle and subjective, but you will know it when it happens. OTOH, if you just took my numbers and used them, you would still like it, but that might not be the ideal setup for Miss P'Fer, and as much work as you have put into the airplane over the years, you ought to go for ideal rather than just better. Besides, once you get involved in the process; slow flying, stalling, moving them to a new spot, flying again, better here, not as good there - it becomes quite intriguing. A Quest for Perfection, very addictive. When you get done, you will find that you now have a different airplane. Kind of like taking Sweet Thing out to dinner, and suddenly realizing that she has somehow lost 50 pounds and become 20 years younger... Enjoy! -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451979#451979 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:20:54 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals From: "George Alexander" John Hauck wrote: > Richard: > > = S = N = I = P > > I have decided to install vg's on my MKIII. > > = S = N = I = P > > Too cold to play airplane at Gantt International Airport, Alabama. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > -- Well, without a doubt, someone has hacked his account and posing as John Hauck. Either that or the cold has gotten to him. Based on the quote above about installing VGs on his Kolb MK III one or the other has to be the case. :D :D :D :D HAPPY NEW YEAR Everyone! -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://www.oh2fly.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451981#451981 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:09 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals John, VG's under the horizontal stabilizer leading edge will give you a little more nose up. If the VG's do not do the job for you with the full flaps, you may want to try them on the wing too. By placing VG's on the wing, they move the wings center of lift toward the tail. Since this effect is over a much greater area and length, it may produce a greater favorable effect than just putting them on the horizontal stabilizer. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:53 PM PST US From: kinne russ Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA John Hope you=99re not completely blue. It=99s a balmy 17F here now. Dont visit for awhile. Never thought I=99d hear you say VG=99s without cussing. In a day or 2 I=99ll measure where mine are on the Xtra. Put on by the original builder here in Maine. I had to replace those on one wing, gottum from Gilpin. Good stuff, easy to apply. Fair winds, Russ K > On Jan 14, 2016, at 10:06 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > Don't know if I can hold my breath in anticipation that long or not. > > Turning blue at hauck's holler. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > PS: Why not kill two experiments at one time. Stick a piece of yarn on the Lexan and see if it will work. > > > > > > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:04 AM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: AOA > > https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s > Here is a link with an even cheaper AOA gage that I found on You Tube. I think it is worth watching. I do believe that one could save even more weight and money over the one that I built. Granted mine only cost a bit of my time, a bolt and two pop rivets. This one could be had for the cost of a piece of twine stuck on the side of your lexan. In any case I found it very informative. The weather is being very nice to us by rain and snow, both highly unusual in this part of the country. I may not be able to do any testing on mine before Feb. > Larry > -- > The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant. > > If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:37 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Hart" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA Larry, A very elegant solution At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: >https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while looking forward. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: Larry Cottrell Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: > > Larry, > > A very elegant solution > > At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: > >> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s >> > > I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but > was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the > windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most > sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while > looking forward. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:43 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: AOA Over the years folks on this List have assumed that I do not like VGs. That assumption was and is entirely incorrect. My stand on VGs has always been, in the past, that I did not need them on my MKIII. Until recently I was a much better pilot than I am now. Two reasons: -Age. -Not flying nearly as much as I used to. I am rusty and will be rusty until I decide I want to fly much more frequently. Flying Larry Cottrell's FSII convinced me that VGs help make a difference landing for old pilots that are rusty as Hell. Why not take advantage of that change/improvement? Never said I did not like VGs. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kinne russ Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA John Hope you=99re not completely blue. It=99s a balmy 17F here now. Dont visit for awhile. Never thought I=99d hear you say VG=99s without cussing. In a day or 2 I=99ll measure where mine are on the Xtra. Put on by the original builder here in Maine. I had to replace those on one wing, gottum from Gilpin. Good stuff, easy to apply. Fair winds, Russ K On Jan 14, 2016, at 10:06 AM, John Hauck wrote: Don't know if I can hold my breath in anticipation that long or not. Turning blue at hauck's holler. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama PS: Why not kill two experiments at one time. Stick a piece of yarn on the Lexan and see if it will work. From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:04 AM Subject: Kolb-List: AOA https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s Here is a link with an even cheaper AOA gage that I found on You Tube. I think it is worth watching. I do believe that one could save even more weight and money over the one that I built. Granted mine only cost a bit of my time, a bolt and two pop rivets. This one could be had for the cost of a piece of twine stuck on the side of your lexan. In any case I found it very informative. The weather is being very nice to us by rain and snow, both highly unusual in this part of the country. I may not be able to do any testing on mine before Feb. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:19 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals I plan to eventually install VGs on the wings first. Then I'll work on the tail section. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack B. Hart Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:02 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals --> John, VG's under the horizontal stabilizer leading edge will give you a little more nose up. If the VG's do not do the job for you with the full flaps, you may want to try them on the wing too. By placing VG's on the wing, they move the wings center of lift toward the tail. Since this effect is over a much greater area and length, it may produce a greater favorable effect than just putting them on the horizontal stabilizer. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:44 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals Thanks for the info. I plan to get started on this as soon as I get some VGs and the weather warms up a bit. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 2:57 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals --> John; it's been a while, but as I remember, I put the VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab, test flew it, made a lot of landings, ssaw improvement. Then I put gap seals between the stab & the elevator, same tests, saw more improvement. Then I added the gap seal between the stab and the fuselage, did not notice much difference. The VG's on the underside of the stab are in a straight line; the innermost one has it's back end at 7" aft of the leading edge, measured with the ruler parallel to the boom tube. The outermost one is at the hinge line and 7" from the outboard end. I have no idea if this location is optimum, I had read that 10% of chord is a good rule of thumb, so I put them there, did not experiment with moving them around. Jack Hart has his right behind the leading edge: http://www.jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly62.html This page shows them at a fixed distance ahead of the hinge line http://www.vortex-generators.com/installation-of-vortex-generators.html as does this one http://www.speedcomfly.com/sito-ecommerce/file_info/vortex.pdf If you would like to try several different locations to find the optimum and let us know, I will gladly move mine to a better position! My web pages are now on George Alexander's web site, where I've got some fairly extensive details on how I did the VG thing. Here is the one for the MKIII: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Vortex%20Generators.html Here is the one for the FSII: some of the data overlaps a bit and it is also useful. http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/FSII%20Vortex%20Generators.html Something you might think of trying, - and I enjoyed doing the process - take your VG's and tape them on and try different measurements. I would use little squares of that aluminum metal duct tape, cut a slot in the middle of the square and poke the VG through, apply to wing, go fly, make notes. Move them to a different spot and do it again. That is how I came to the conclusion as to where they worked best on my airplane. When you hit the sweet spot, you can tell. It is subtle and subjective, but you will know it when it happens. OTOH, if you just took my numbers and used them, you would still like it, but that might not be the ideal setup for Miss P'Fer, and as much work as you have put into the airplane over the years, you ought to go for ideal rather than just better. Besides, once you get involved in the process; slow flying, stalling, moving them to a new spot, flying again, better here, not as good there - it becomes quite intriguing. A Quest for Perfection, very add! ictive. When you get done, you will find that you now have a different airplane. Kind of like taking Sweet Thing out to dinner, and suddenly realizing that she has somehow lost 50 pounds and become 20 years younger... Enjoy! -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451979#451979 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:36 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals I'll be alright. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Alexander Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 3:20 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals --> John Hauck wrote: > Richard: > > = S = N = I = P > > I have decided to install vg's on my MKIII. > > = S = N = I = P > > Too cold to play airplane at Gantt International Airport, Alabama. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > -- Well, without a doubt, someone has hacked his account and posing as John Hauck. Either that or the cold has gotten to him. Based on the quote above about installing VGs on his Kolb MK III one or the other has to be the case. :D :D :D :D HAPPY NEW YEAR Everyone! -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://www.oh2fly.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451981#451981 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: Charlie England Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some > testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will > eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the > alum first. > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart > wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > A very elegant solution > > At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: > > https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s > > > I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but > was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the > windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most > sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while > looking forward. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals From: Larry Cottrell I plan to eventually install VGs on the wings first. Then I'll work on the tail section. john h mkIII ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any Kolb will fly better with VG's only on the wings. I flew that way for quite a long time, but I noticed with the increased lift from the wing, that when landing my tail wheel was touching down first. When I would come in to land and I tried to flare, the tail would go right on through to the ground rather than flare with the wings. I finally decided that the wings were blanking much of the air from the elevator. The rest was lost at the steep angle of the elevator in relation to the wind. I installed four VG's on each side of the elevator, on the bottom, right at the hinge point. The result was that I was able to make three point landings much easier, since my tail was still flying. Perhaps there are better places than the hinge line to install VG's, but the ones that I did install have improved the situation tremendously. It only makes sense that if there are VG's on the wings, they will hold the air longer before stalling. The tail with none, will stall before the wing in a landing configuration. FWIW Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:02 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > I plan to eventually install VGs on the wings first. Then I'll work on the > tail section. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack B. Hart > Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:02 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Horizontal stabilizer seals > > --> > > John, > > VG's under the horizontal stabilizer leading edge will give you a little > more nose up. > > If the VG's do not do the job for you with the full flaps, you may want to > try them on the wing too. By placing VG's on the wing, they move the wings > center of lift toward the tail. Since this effect is over a much greater > area and length, it may produce a greater favorable effect than just > putting > them on the horizontal stabilizer. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: AOA Quick scan, cross check? In a Kolb, any model, I find the ASI works great to prevent stalls. There is very little difference in air speed between a straight and level stall and an accelerated stall. I realize the subject is AOA. Guess I am trying to say I don't think I need one. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: Larry, A very elegant solution At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while looking forward. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: Larry Cottrell Charlie England via matronics.com 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago) to kolb-list Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-) I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be happy to change. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the > headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight > while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the > side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) > > On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some > testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will > eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum > first. > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart > wrote: > >> jbhart@onlyinternet.net> >> >> Larry, >> >> A very elegant solution >> >> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: >> >>> >>> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s >>> >> >> I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but >> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the >> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most >> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while >> looking forward. >> >> Jack B. Hart FF004 >> Winchester, IN >> > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.