Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:33 AM - Re: AOA (Patrick Ladd)
2. 06:59 AM - AOA Instruments (John Hauck)
3. 05:04 PM - Re: AOA (mojavjoe@comcast.net)
4. 07:00 PM - Re: AOA (Larry Cottrell)
5. 07:50 PM - Re: AOA (B Young)
6. 08:40 PM - Re: AOA (Charlie England)
7. 08:41 PM - aoa (Larry Cottrell)
8. 08:46 PM - Re: aoa (Charlie England)
9. 08:54 PM - Re: aoa (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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KISS John. I agree with you. Pat
From: John Hauck
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:39 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: AOA
Quick scan, cross check?
In a Kolb, any model, I find the ASI works great to prevent stalls.
There is very little difference in air speed between a straight and
level stall and an accelerated stall.
I realize the subject is AOA. Guess I am trying to say I don't think I
need one. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA
Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in
the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of
sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to
the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some
testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will
eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the
alum first.
Larry
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart
<jbhart@onlyinternet.net> wrote:
<jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
Larry,
A very elegant solution
At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
<https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s>https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s
I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but
was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the
windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most
sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while
looking forward.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
Message 2
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After reading the attached NTSB article, I may have to rethink my attitude
toward AOA Instruments.
In my early years of flying Kolbs I got pretty aggressive at times. One of
my favorite exercises was to impress the crowd with approach and landing
right on the edge of stall all the way to the ground. In the Ultrastar and
Firestar I could keep the Winter venturi operated ASI, designed for gliders,
right on 25 mph, the very edge of stall. If I got a half needle width below
25 the aircraft would start nibbling at the stall. This was great, a lot of
fun, until the couple times when the wind stopped blowing. It is a very
helpless feeling falling in a stall 20, 30, 50 feet above the ground.
While I was typing this I remembered a third incident where I stalled from
approximately 50 feet AGL, on takeoff, in my MKIII, loaded to max, cargo and
fuel, field elevation 6,539 feet, very high air temp, dust devils (clear air
type that one cannot see) in the area at Grants Airport, New Mexico. High,
turbulent cross wind. Soon as I started descending in a mush I went full
throttle, tried to push the stick forward, although I don't think I did a
very good job of it, got blown off the runway center line, and smacked down
very hard into the desert sand, bounced back into the air and continued
flying. Was lucky I did not do more damage than rearrange the 4130 gear
legs on my MKIII. Only my second take off from a high altitude airport
since I departed near sea level conditions on my flight to Monument Valley
from Alabama, May 2009. My muscle memory had me at sea level, not 6,539
feet MSL.
An AOA would probably have prevented the NM stall. I don't know about the
first two. Stupid is as stupid does. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 3
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Larry:
If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm and
a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an audio device.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA
Charlie England via matronics.com
8:33 PM (11 minutes ago)
to kolb-list
Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset,
or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering.
If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in
front can go unnoticed. :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my peripheral vision.
It actually would not take all that much to actually make it audible, or
with lights, with some contact points at the proper places. However I have to
admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-)
I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am sure
that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other unmentionables
enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I am open to change
and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be happy to change.
Larry
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England < ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote:
Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset,
or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering.
If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in
front can go unnoticed. :-)
On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
<blockquote>
Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some testing and
see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the
yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first.
Larry
On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart < jbhart@onlyinternet.net > wrote:
<blockquote>
Larry,
A very elegant solution
At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
<blockquote>
< https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s > https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s
I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but
was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the
windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most
sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while
looking forward.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before
sending.
Message 4
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If the indicating arm is far enough out towards the nose, the air should
flow in a straight line. Assuming that it does and its position is
discernible to the pilot, you might not need a light or horn. Most of my
landings do not have or require any serious movement of the stick until I
get within a foot or so of the ground.
I would however be interested in any thing that you could find that would
make it an audible or visual indicator.
Larry
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 6:01 PM, <mojavjoe@comcast.net> wrote:
> Larry:
> If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm
> and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an
> audio device.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
> *To: *"kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA
>
> Charlie England via <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
> matronics.com
> 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago)
> to kolb-list
>
>
> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the
> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight
> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the
> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my
> peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually
> make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper
> places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-)
>
> I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am
> sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other
> unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I
> am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be
> happy to change.
>
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the
>> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight
>> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the
>> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
>>
>> On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some
>> testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will
>> eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum
>> first.
>> Larry
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>>
>>> Larry,
>>>
>>> A very elegant solution
>>>
>>> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s> <https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s>
>>>> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s
>>>>
>>>
>>> I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but
>>> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the
>>> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most
>>> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while
>>> looking forward.
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
>
> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.*
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 5
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I'm thinking install a micro switch. Install a light on top of the dash.
Set the light to come on 5 mph above the stall
Boyd
On Jan 15, 2016 6:07 PM, <mojavjoe@comcast.net> wrote:
> Larry:
> If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm
> and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an
> audio device.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
> *To: *"kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA
>
> Charlie England via <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
> matronics.com
> 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago)
> to kolb-list
>
>
> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the
> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight
> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the
> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my
> peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually
> make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper
> places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-)
>
> I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am
> sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other
> unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I
> am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be
> happy to change.
>
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the
>> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight
>> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the
>> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
>>
>> On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some
>> testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will
>> eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum
>> first.
>> Larry
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net>jbhart@onlyinternet.net>
>>>
>>> Larry,
>>>
>>> A very elegant solution
>>>
>>> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> <https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s> <https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s>
>>>> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s
>>>>
>>>
>>> I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but
>>> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the
>>> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most
>>> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while
>>> looking forward.
>>>
>>> Jack B. Hart FF004
>>> Winchester, IN
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
>
> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.*
>
>
Message 6
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Might not be that useful on a Kolb, but the really useful feature of AOA
indicators is supposed to be the ability to fly at max lift/drag; not
just avoid stall. The AOA lets you do that regardless of weight, since
stall speed changes significantly with weight but stall AOA does not.
Ideally, a variable light/tone should be helpful. This one has a
'ladder' type display. Wouldn't take much for a HAM radio buddy to build
you a voltage to frequency converter for audio.
http://www.barkeraircraft.com/AOA_kit.html
I hope it's still available; it's been on & off the market a couple of
times.
Charlie
On 1/15/2016 9:49 PM, B Young wrote:
>
> I'm thinking install a micro switch. Install a light on top of the
> dash. Set the light to come on 5 mph above the stall
>
> Boyd
>
> On Jan 15, 2016 6:07 PM, <mojavjoe@comcast.net
> <mailto:mojavjoe@comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Larry:
> If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on
> the arm and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall,
> hooked to an audio device.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell1020@gmail.com
> <mailto:lcottrell1020@gmail.com>>
> *To: *"kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com
> <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>>
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA
>
>
> Charlie England via
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
> matronics.com <http://matronics.com>
>
>
> 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago)
>
>
> to kolb-list
>
>
> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio
> in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal
> line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on
> something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my
> peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to
> actually make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points
> at the proper places. However I have to admit that I am most
> likely too lazy to do so. :-)
>
> I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a
> Firestar. I am sure that it would help a novice, but I have
> bounced, crashed and other unmentionables enough times that I
> think I have it slammed into my head. I am open to change and if I
> can land better and slower with one, I will be happy to change.
>
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England
> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of
> audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the
> pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're
> visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in
> front can go unnoticed. :-)
>
> On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
> Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I
> will do some testing and see if Firestars react
> differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the
> yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first.
> Larry
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net <mailto:jbhart@onlyinternet.net>>
> wrote:
>
> <jbhart@onlyinternet.net <mailto:jbhart@onlyinternet.net>>
>
> Larry,
>
> A very elegant solution
>
> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
>
> <https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s>https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s
>
>
> I tried several different things over the years. One
> worked well but
> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side
> of the
> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it
> was the most
> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could
> not see it while
> looking forward.
>
> Jack B. Hart FF004
> Winchester, IN
>
>
> --
> /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant./
> /
> /
> /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my
> email address before sending./
>
>
Message 7
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What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on the
inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with 4 or five
wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the ends. The arm as
it moves up and down would make contact with the different wires as it
moves, each lighting a different light moving up to the red one.
Larry
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 8
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On 1/15/2016 10:41 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on
> the inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with
> 4 or five wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the
> ends. The arm as it moves up and down would make contact with the
> different wires as it moves, each lighting a different light moving up
> to the red one.
> Larry
>
> --
> /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant./
> /
> /
> /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending./
Ships passing in the night....
Message 9
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Ships passing in the night....
I'm betting the other one would be a lot nicer. :-)
On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 1/15/2016 10:41 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
>
> What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on the
> inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with 4 or five
> wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the ends. The arm as
> it moves up and down would make contact with the different wires as it
> moves, each lighting a different light moving up to the red one.
> Larry
>
> --
> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
>
> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.*
>
> Ships passing in the night....
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
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