---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/15/16: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:33 AM - Re: AOA (Patrick Ladd) 2. 06:59 AM - AOA Instruments (John Hauck) 3. 05:04 PM - Re: AOA (mojavjoe@comcast.net) 4. 07:00 PM - Re: AOA (Larry Cottrell) 5. 07:50 PM - Re: AOA (B Young) 6. 08:40 PM - Re: AOA (Charlie England) 7. 08:41 PM - aoa (Larry Cottrell) 8. 08:46 PM - Re: aoa (Charlie England) 9. 08:54 PM - Re: aoa (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:48 AM PST US From: Patrick Ladd Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA KISS John. I agree with you. Pat From: John Hauck Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 3:39 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: AOA Quick scan, cross check? In a Kolb, any model, I find the ASI works great to prevent stalls. There is very little difference in air speed between a straight and level stall and an accelerated stall. I realize the subject is AOA. Guess I am trying to say I don't think I need one. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote: Larry, A very elegant solution At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while looking forward. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:09 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: AOA Instruments After reading the attached NTSB article, I may have to rethink my attitude toward AOA Instruments. In my early years of flying Kolbs I got pretty aggressive at times. One of my favorite exercises was to impress the crowd with approach and landing right on the edge of stall all the way to the ground. In the Ultrastar and Firestar I could keep the Winter venturi operated ASI, designed for gliders, right on 25 mph, the very edge of stall. If I got a half needle width below 25 the aircraft would start nibbling at the stall. This was great, a lot of fun, until the couple times when the wind stopped blowing. It is a very helpless feeling falling in a stall 20, 30, 50 feet above the ground. While I was typing this I remembered a third incident where I stalled from approximately 50 feet AGL, on takeoff, in my MKIII, loaded to max, cargo and fuel, field elevation 6,539 feet, very high air temp, dust devils (clear air type that one cannot see) in the area at Grants Airport, New Mexico. High, turbulent cross wind. Soon as I started descending in a mush I went full throttle, tried to push the stick forward, although I don't think I did a very good job of it, got blown off the runway center line, and smacked down very hard into the desert sand, bounced back into the air and continued flying. Was lucky I did not do more damage than rearrange the 4130 gear legs on my MKIII. Only my second take off from a high altitude airport since I departed near sea level conditions on my flight to Monument Valley from Alabama, May 2009. My muscle memory had me at sea level, not 6,539 feet MSL. An AOA would probably have prevented the NM stall. I don't know about the first two. Stupid is as stupid does. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:50 PM PST US From: mojavjoe@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA Larry: If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an audio device. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Cottrell" Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA Charlie England via matronics.com 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago) to kolb-list Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-) I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be happy to change. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England < ceengland7@gmail.com > wrote: Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first. Larry On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart < jbhart@onlyinternet.net > wrote:
Larry, A very elegant solution At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote:
< https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s > https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while looking forward. Jack B. Hart FF004 Winchester, IN
-- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:46 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: Larry Cottrell If the indicating arm is far enough out towards the nose, the air should flow in a straight line. Assuming that it does and its position is discernible to the pilot, you might not need a light or horn. Most of my landings do not have or require any serious movement of the stick until I get within a foot or so of the ground. I would however be interested in any thing that you could find that would make it an audible or visual indicator. Larry On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 6:01 PM, wrote: > Larry: > If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm > and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an > audio device. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Larry Cottrell" > *To: *"kolb-list" > *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM > *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA > > Charlie England via > matronics.com > 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago) > to kolb-list > > > Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the > headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight > while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the > side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my > peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually > make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper > places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-) > > I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am > sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other > unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I > am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be > happy to change. > > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > >> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the >> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight >> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the >> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) >> >> On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: >> >> Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some >> testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will >> eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum >> first. >> Larry >> >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart >> wrote: >> >>> jbhart@onlyinternet.net> >>> >>> Larry, >>> >>> A very elegant solution >>> >>> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s >>>> >>> >>> I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but >>> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the >>> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most >>> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while >>> looking forward. >>> >>> Jack B. Hart FF004 >>> Winchester, IN >>> >> >> > > > -- > *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* > > *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending.* > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: B Young I'm thinking install a micro switch. Install a light on top of the dash. Set the light to come on 5 mph above the stall Boyd On Jan 15, 2016 6:07 PM, wrote: > Larry: > If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on the arm > and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, hooked to an > audio device. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Larry Cottrell" > *To: *"kolb-list" > *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM > *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA > > Charlie England via > matronics.com > 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago) > to kolb-list > > > Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the > headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight > while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the > side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my > peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to actually > make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points at the proper > places. However I have to admit that I am most likely too lazy to do so. :-) > > I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a Firestar. I am > sure that it would help a novice, but I have bounced, crashed and other > unmentionables enough times that I think I have it slammed into my head. I > am open to change and if I can land better and slower with one, I will be > happy to change. > > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England > wrote: > >> Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio in the >> headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal line of sight >> while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on something out to the >> side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) >> >> On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: >> >> Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I will do some >> testing and see if Firestars react differently to Fire Flys. I will >> eventually go to the yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum >> first. >> Larry >> >> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart >> wrote: >> >>> jbhart@onlyinternet.net> >>> >>> Larry, >>> >>> A very elegant solution >>> >>> At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s >>>> >>> >>> I tried several different things over the years. One worked well but >>> was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side of the >>> windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it was the most >>> sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could not see it while >>> looking forward. >>> >>> Jack B. Hart FF004 >>> Winchester, IN >>> >> >> > > > -- > *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* > > *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending.* > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:40:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: AOA From: Charlie England Might not be that useful on a Kolb, but the really useful feature of AOA indicators is supposed to be the ability to fly at max lift/drag; not just avoid stall. The AOA lets you do that regardless of weight, since stall speed changes significantly with weight but stall AOA does not. Ideally, a variable light/tone should be helpful. This one has a 'ladder' type display. Wouldn't take much for a HAM radio buddy to build you a voltage to frequency converter for audio. http://www.barkeraircraft.com/AOA_kit.html I hope it's still available; it's been on & off the market a couple of times. Charlie On 1/15/2016 9:49 PM, B Young wrote: > > I'm thinking install a micro switch. Install a light on top of the > dash. Set the light to come on 5 mph above the stall > > Boyd > > On Jan 15, 2016 6:07 PM, > wrote: > > Larry: > If your device works; it would be simple to put a small magenet on > the arm and a mag. pickup inside, placed near the point of stall, > hooked to an audio device. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Larry Cottrell" > > *To: *"kolb-list" > > *Sent: *Thursday, January 14, 2016 11:01:00 PM > *Subject: *Re: Kolb-List: AOA > > > Charlie England via > > matronics.com > > > 8:33 PM (11 minutes ago) > > > to kolb-list > > > Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of audio > in the headset, or to at least be directly in the pilot's normal > line of sight while maneuvering. If you're visually fixating on > something out to the side, bad things in front can go unnoticed. :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I think where I have it located I will be able to see it with my > peripheral vision. It actually would not take all that much to > actually make it audible, or with lights, with some contact points > at the proper places. However I have to admit that I am most > likely too lazy to do so. :-) > > I still haven't convinced myself that one is needed with a > Firestar. I am sure that it would help a novice, but I have > bounced, crashed and other unmentionables enough times that I > think I have it slammed into my head. I am open to change and if I > can land better and slower with one, I will be happy to change. > > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:33 PM, Charlie England > > wrote: > > Keep in mind that to be truly useful, AOA needs some sort of > audio in the headset, or to at least be directly in the > pilot's normal line of sight while maneuvering. If you're > visually fixating on something out to the side, bad things in > front can go unnoticed. :-) > > On 1/14/2016 8:31 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Thanks for the comments Jack. When the weather clears I > will do some testing and see if Firestars react > differently to Fire Flys. I will eventually go to the > yarn, but I want to try the bigger surface of the alum first. > Larry > > On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jack B. Hart > > > wrote: > > > > > Larry, > > A very elegant solution > > At 01:04 AM 1/14/2016, you wrote: > > https://youtu.be/Ubx5S8rzl7s > > > I tried several different things over the years. One > worked well but > was cumbersome. The other was a yarn tuft on the side > of the > windshield. I moved it up and down to see where it > was the most > sensitive. Unfortunately that spot was where I could > not see it while > looking forward. > > Jack B. Hart FF004 > Winchester, IN > > > -- > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant./ > / > / > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my > email address before sending./ > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:41 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: aoa From: Larry Cottrell What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on the inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with 4 or five wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the ends. The arm as it moves up and down would make contact with the different wires as it moves, each lighting a different light moving up to the red one. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:04 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aoa From: Charlie England On 1/15/2016 10:41 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on > the inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with > 4 or five wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the > ends. The arm as it moves up and down would make contact with the > different wires as it moves, each lighting a different light moving up > to the red one. > Larry > > -- > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant./ > / > / > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending./ Ships passing in the night.... ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: aoa From: Larry Cottrell Ships passing in the night.... I'm betting the other one would be a lot nicer. :-) On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 9:46 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 1/15/2016 10:41 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > What I am visualizing is a vane, much like what I have with an arm on the > inside of the lexan. Run one wire to the arm. make a "board" with 4 or five > wires sticking through the board with a solder lump on the ends. The arm as > it moves up and down would make contact with the different wires as it > moves, each lighting a different light moving up to the red one. > Larry > > -- > *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* > > *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending.* > > Ships passing in the night.... > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.