Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:04 AM - Re: FW: FireStar 2 Kit Received ! (Bill Berle)
2. 06:24 AM - Re: FW: FireStar 2 Kit Received ! (John Hauck)
3. 05:25 PM - Re: FireStar 2 Kit Received ! (Dennis Rowe)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FireStar 2 Kit Received ! |
I have no Kolb experience whatsoever. This is my first Kolb. So some of my ideas
may not work out as well as I hope, and some of them may work better than I
imagined. The challenge and enjoyment of improving the performance of an already
good airplane is one of the things I'm looking forward to.
I have a specific question which you might be able to answer: If you put the wing
on a FireStar at the lower incidence angle of the Slingshot, and then put on
the taller gear from the Slingshot, would you get both benefits (a higher cruise
speed from the tailboom flying straight), AND better STOL performance (from
the higher ground angle)?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 3/16/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: FW: Kolb-List: FireStar 2 Kit Received !
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016, 8:03 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Folks:
The paragraphs in quotation marks are Bill B's.
Homer Kolb didn't design the Kolbra. That aircraft was
designed and built some time after the original Kolb
Aircraft Co was sold.
"Mr. Kolb himself changed the wing dimensions to create the
Slingshot, Kolbra, Firelfy, and others. He also changed the
angle of incidence (wing mounting angle) to create different
characteristics on different models."
All Kolb wing dimensions are the same, except length of the
wing panel. Shape of the rib and cord is the same on
all models.
The Slingshot had less incidence because of the high main
gear and the nose high attitude the aircraft sat on the
ground. It also flew faster, pulling the tail boom
parallel through the air stream. At slower speeds the
SS really drags its tail. Very tail
low.Other Kolb models fly tail high
because of the excessive incidence.
"Raked wingtips are shown to work, especially at high AoA
and low speeds. They create a pressure field that slightly
reduces the wingtip vortex."
I think you will find that Homer's wingtip takes care of the
above.
"VG's are shown to work great, especially on simple
turbulent flow airfoils like the Cub, Kolb, and Aeronca.
They help the airflow stay attached to the wing at higher
AoA. This results in better control authority at low speeds,
which will be a lifesaver in off-airport STOL operations."
All Kolb models have excellent low speed flight
characteristics without VGs. About the only thing I
have been able to determine with the addition of VGs on a
Kolb is more gentle break on landing, and slightly less
stall speed.
"Mr. Kolb designed the landing gear to be as easy and
low-risk for new or low-time pilots as possible. It worked,
and the Kolb has a wonderful reputation for easy ground
handling. This is just what the doctor ordered for a kit
plane that was safe for low time pilots. But this mellow
ground handling comes at the cost of losing the ideal
ground angle for the wing to take off and land slower. A
longer or taller landing gear requires a slightly more
experienced pilot, but you get better STOL performance in
the bargain."
The Hauck Brothers have been designing and building "tall"
landing gear for Kolb aircraft for 30 years. We put
the first pair of heat treated 4130 legs on a Kolb.
The main reason we started experimenting with long legs on
my FS was the lack of brakes. One of the first mods to
my FS was 4130 streamlined lift struts. They cleaned
up the FS so much I couldn't get it stopped on my short
grass strip. The 36" legs turned the bottom of the
wing up more and helped slow the FS down on landing.
They also made nice springs, and worked wonders for
softening up the suspension.
BTW Bill B, tell us about your Kolb experience, please.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | FireStar 2 Kit Received ! |
I always thought dragging the tail boom straight, instead of sideways
through the air, would clean it up a bit and increase cruise. The SS
and Kolbra utilize that design technique with lower incidence to
increase cruise. John Williamson's Kolbra, with 912ULS, same engine on
my MKIII, cruised 10 mph faster at the same rpm. Top speed is about 10
to 15 mph quicker. The major difference in drag between the Kolbra/SS
and the MKIII was the difference between the width and shape of the
fuselage. Also, the Kolbra had less wing area because it did not have
flaps. The MKIII flies slower and gets off the ground quicker.
Actually, the fuselage of the FS would have to be redesigned because the
tail boom was designed to fly tail high. Flying with the tail boom
horizontal would make the pilot feel as though he were laying on his
back and climbing all the time.
My original Firestar was faster and flew slower than the FSII. It had
full span ailerons. The FSII is like the Kolbra with half span.
I am a firm believer is extremely tight fabric. I believe this is one
of the major differences between air speed/flight characteristic
differences of the same model Kolbs. My MKIII has never been outrun by
another MKIII. Same for my original FS. Both aircraft had fabric that
bowed the tubes on wings and empennage. Soft fabric changes shape much
more than tight fabric.
There were a lot of things I would have liked to experiment with my
Kolbs over the last 32 years, but age caught up with me before I got
them all done. Then I got to the stage that what I have now is great.
It does what I need. It is an 85 mph cruise aircraft. If I can find a
15 mph tailwind, then I've got a temporary 100 mph airplane across the
ground. It will carry everything I can cram into it to keep me and it
going for extended periods of time. So far, the longest duration flight
was 48 days. The longest flight was 17,400 sm in 41 days and 232.0
flight hours. It will keep me in the air for 5 hours, if I could do
that without wetting my pants. It gets me in and out of tiny fields,
two track trails, gravel bars, beaches on the Atlantic, the Gulf of
Mexico, the Arctic Ocean, and small dry lakes in the dessert. It does
much more than Homer Kolb and John Hauck ever dreamed one of his little
airplanes would do. It takes me where I want to go. All I have to do
is put gas in it, take off and point the nose in that direction.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:01 AM
Subject: RE: FW: Kolb-List: FireStar 2 Kit Received !
I have no Kolb experience whatsoever. This is my first Kolb. So some of
my ideas may not work out as well as I hope, and some of them may work
better than I imagined. The challenge and enjoyment of improving the
performance of an already good airplane is one of the things I'm looking
forward to.
I have a specific question which you might be able to answer: If you put
the wing on a FireStar at the lower incidence angle of the Slingshot,
and then put on the taller gear from the Slingshot, would you get both
benefits (a higher cruise speed from the tailboom flying straight), AND
better STOL performance (from the higher ground angle)?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 3/16/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: FW: Kolb-List: FireStar 2 Kit Received !
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016, 8:03 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Hi Folks:
The paragraphs in quotation marks are Bill B's.
Homer Kolb didn't design the Kolbra. That aircraft was designed and
built some time after the original Kolb Aircraft Co was sold.
"Mr. Kolb himself changed the wing dimensions to create the Slingshot,
Kolbra, Firelfy, and others. He also changed the angle of incidence
(wing mounting angle) to create different characteristics on different
models."
All Kolb wing dimensions are the same, except length of the wing
panel. Shape of the rib and cord is the same on all models.
The Slingshot had less incidence because of the high main gear and the
nose high attitude the aircraft sat on the ground. It also flew
faster, pulling the tail boom parallel through the air stream. At
slower speeds the SS really drags its tail. Very tail low. Other
Kolb models fly tail high because of the excessive incidence.
"Raked wingtips are shown to work, especially at high AoA and low
speeds. They create a pressure field that slightly reduces the wingtip
vortex."
I think you will find that Homer's wingtip takes care of the above.
"VG's are shown to work great, especially on simple turbulent flow
airfoils like the Cub, Kolb, and Aeronca.
They help the airflow stay attached to the wing at higher AoA. This
results in better control authority at low speeds, which will be a
lifesaver in off-airport STOL operations."
All Kolb models have excellent low speed flight characteristics
without VGs. About the only thing I have been able to determine with
the addition of VGs on a Kolb is more gentle break on landing, and
slightly less stall speed.
"Mr. Kolb designed the landing gear to be as easy and low-risk for new
or low-time pilots as possible. It worked, and the Kolb has a wonderful
reputation for easy ground handling. This is just what the doctor
ordered for a kit plane that was safe for low time pilots. But this
mellow ground handling comes at the cost of losing the ideal ground
angle for the wing to take off and land slower. A longer or taller
landing gear requires a slightly more experienced pilot, but you get
better STOL performance in the bargain."
The Hauck Brothers have been designing and building "tall"
landing gear for Kolb aircraft for 30 years. We put the first pair of
heat treated 4130 legs on a Kolb. The main reason we started
experimenting with long legs on my FS was the lack of brakes. One of
the first mods to my FS was 4130 streamlined lift struts. They cleaned
up the FS so much I couldn't get it stopped on my short grass strip.
The 36" legs turned the bottom of the wing up more and helped slow the
FS down on landing. They also made nice springs, and worked wonders for
softening up the suspension.
BTW Bill B, tell us about your Kolb experience, please.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
www.buildersbooks.com
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: FireStar 2 Kit Received ! |
Man, let me know if you ever want to sell Miss Pfer. that was quite the sales
pitch!
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 9:22 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I always thought dragging the tail boom straight, instead of sideways through
the air, would clean it up a bit and increase cruise. The SS and Kolbra utilize
that design technique with lower incidence to increase cruise. John Williamson's
Kolbra, with 912ULS, same engine on my MKIII, cruised 10 mph faster at
the same rpm. Top speed is about 10 to 15 mph quicker. The major difference
in drag between the Kolbra/SS and the MKIII was the difference between the width
and shape of the fuselage. Also, the Kolbra had less wing area because it
did not have flaps. The MKIII flies slower and gets off the ground quicker.
>
> Actually, the fuselage of the FS would have to be redesigned because the tail
boom was designed to fly tail high. Flying with the tail boom horizontal would
make the pilot feel as though he were laying on his back and climbing all the
time.
>
> My original Firestar was faster and flew slower than the FSII. It had full span
ailerons. The FSII is like the Kolbra with half span.
>
> I am a firm believer is extremely tight fabric. I believe this is one of the
major differences between air speed/flight characteristic differences of the
same model Kolbs. My MKIII has never been outrun by another MKIII. Same for
my original FS. Both aircraft had fabric that bowed the tubes on wings and empennage.
Soft fabric changes shape much more than tight fabric.
>
> There were a lot of things I would have liked to experiment with my Kolbs over
the last 32 years, but age caught up with me before I got them all done. Then
I got to the stage that what I have now is great. It does what I need. It
is an 85 mph cruise aircraft. If I can find a 15 mph tailwind, then I've got
a temporary 100 mph airplane across the ground. It will carry everything I can
cram into it to keep me and it going for extended periods of time. So far,
the longest duration flight was 48 days. The longest flight was 17,400 sm in
41 days and 232.0 flight hours. It will keep me in the air for 5 hours, if I
could do that without wetting my pants. It gets me in and out of tiny fields,
two track trails, gravel bars, beaches on the Atlantic, the Gulf of Mexico,
the Arctic Ocean, and small dry lakes in the dessert. It does much more than
Homer Kolb and John Hauck ever dreamed one of his little airplanes would do.
It takes me where I want to go. All I have to do is put gas in it, take off and
point the nose in that direction.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:01 AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: FW: Kolb-List: FireStar 2 Kit Received !
>
>
> I have no Kolb experience whatsoever. This is my first Kolb. So some of my ideas
may not work out as well as I hope, and some of them may work better than
I imagined. The challenge and enjoyment of improving the performance of an already
good airplane is one of the things I'm looking forward to.
>
> I have a specific question which you might be able to answer: If you put the
wing on a FireStar at the lower incidence angle of the Slingshot, and then put
on the taller gear from the Slingshot, would you get both benefits (a higher
cruise speed from the tailboom flying straight), AND better STOL performance (from
the higher ground angle)?
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 3/16/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: FW: Kolb-List: FireStar 2 Kit Received !
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, March 16, 2016, 8:03 PM
>
> "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
>
> Hi Folks:
>
> The paragraphs in quotation marks are Bill B's.
>
> Homer Kolb didn't design the Kolbra. That aircraft was designed and built some
time after the original Kolb Aircraft Co was sold.
>
> "Mr. Kolb himself changed the wing dimensions to create the Slingshot, Kolbra,
Firelfy, and others. He also changed the angle of incidence (wing mounting
angle) to create different characteristics on different models."
>
> All Kolb wing dimensions are the same, except length of the wing panel. Shape
of the rib and cord is the same on all models.
>
> The Slingshot had less incidence because of the high main gear and the nose
high attitude the aircraft sat on the ground. It also flew faster, pulling the
tail boom parallel through the air stream. At slower speeds the SS really
drags its tail. Very tail low. Other Kolb models fly tail high because
of the excessive incidence.
>
> "Raked wingtips are shown to work, especially at high AoA and low speeds. They
create a pressure field that slightly reduces the wingtip vortex."
>
> I think you will find that Homer's wingtip takes care of the above.
>
> "VG's are shown to work great, especially on simple turbulent flow airfoils
like the Cub, Kolb, and Aeronca.
> They help the airflow stay attached to the wing at higher AoA. This results
in better control authority at low speeds, which will be a lifesaver in off-airport
STOL operations."
>
> All Kolb models have excellent low speed flight characteristics without VGs.
About the only thing I have been able to determine with the addition of VGs
on a Kolb is more gentle break on landing, and slightly less stall speed.
>
> "Mr. Kolb designed the landing gear to be as easy and low-risk for new or low-time
pilots as possible. It worked, and the Kolb has a wonderful reputation
for easy ground handling. This is just what the doctor ordered for a kit plane
that was safe for low time pilots. But this mellow ground handling comes
at the cost of losing the ideal ground angle for the wing to take off and land
slower. A longer or taller landing gear requires a slightly more experienced
pilot, but you get better STOL performance in the bargain."
>
> The Hauck Brothers have been designing and building "tall"
> landing gear for Kolb aircraft for 30 years. We put the first pair of heat
treated 4130 legs on a Kolb. The main reason we started experimenting with long
legs on my FS was the lack of brakes. One of the first mods to my FS was
4130 streamlined lift struts. They cleaned up the FS so much I couldn't get
it stopped on my short grass strip. The 36" legs turned the bottom of the
wing up more and helped slow the FS down on landing. They also made nice springs,
and worked wonders for softening up the suspension.
>
> BTW Bill B, tell us about your Kolb experience, please.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lists This Month --
> Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
> Raiser. Click on
> more about
> Gifts provided
> www.buildersbooks.com
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
> Forum -
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> List Contribution Web Site -
> -Matt
> Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <P5260055.JPG>
> <Arrival Rock House Sep 2014.jpg>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|