---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/22/16: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:03 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Dennis Rowe) 2. 10:43 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 3. 11:51 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Charlie England) 4. 12:31 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Stuart Harner) 5. 12:33 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bob) 6. 01:09 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Jim Baker) 7. 01:13 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Larry Cottrell) 8. 01:19 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Rick Neilsen) 9. 01:40 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 10. 01:54 PM - Re: Addendum - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 11. 02:14 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 12. 03:09 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (undoctor) 13. 03:33 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 14. 04:03 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 15. 04:32 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (John Hauck) 16. 04:46 PM - Re: Addendum - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Leland.Lam) 17. 05:31 PM - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Larry Cottrell) 18. 07:37 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 19. 08:52 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:14 AM PST US From: Dennis Rowe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any second. Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be imminent. Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It won't fall apart. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > The rear attachment > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is > through the rear folding weldments that also act as the > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > sure how you would make it any simpler. > Rick Girard > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer > attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > design, and whether any other "old-school" > airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > mechanism works, and after looking at everything several > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > extruded hinge. > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same > concerns? > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this > point. What I want to know is why this load path - through > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > > > ========== > > br> > fts!) > > r> >> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Blessed > are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:39 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :) With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not falling out of the sky. Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM Dennis Rowe Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any second. Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be imminent. Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It won't fall apart. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > The rear attachment > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is > through the rear folding weldments that also act as the > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > sure how you would make it any simpler. > Rick Girard > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer > attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > design, and whether any other "old-school" > airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > mechanism works, and after looking at everything several > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > extruded hinge. > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same > concerns? > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this > point. What I want to know is why this load path - through > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > > > ========== > > br> > fts!) > > r> >> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Blessed > are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.Groucho > Marx > > > > > > Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Charlie England Any way to post a pic of the assembly, or the construction drawing, for those of us who don't have that model to inspect? Not the entire set of plans, of course; just the area in question. On 3/22/2016 12:39 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :) > > With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not falling out of the sky. > > Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM > > Dennis Rowe > > Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 > hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two > 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The > horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any > second. > Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be > imminent. > Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It > won't fall apart. > > > Dennis "Skid" Rowe > Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > > > > > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > > > > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated > that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection > between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the > load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward > through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the > U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the > elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the > stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you > could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the > elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down > movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets > that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no > significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. > Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up > and down by hand and this movement would bend the > (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would > attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the > thin metal back and forth. > > > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer > attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to > be able to slide back and forth a little. > > > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual > structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair > of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any > one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance > upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge > ass'y > > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > > > The rear attachment > > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. > It is > > through the rear folding weldments that also act as > the > > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line > is > > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In > that > > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of > the > > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in > my > > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt > that > > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > > sure how you would make it any simpler. > > Rick Girard > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > > wrote: > > Bill Berle > > > > > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are > qualified > > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask > a > > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this > stabilizer > > attachment. I understand that there have not been many > (or > > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am > asking > > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > > design, and whether any other "old-school" > > airplane people think that this system is a little > wonky. > > > > > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > > mechanism works, and after looking at everything > several > > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer > to > > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural > load > > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar > tube > > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > > extruded hinge. > > > > > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the > root > > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through > the > > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into > the > > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge > is > > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself > is > > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the > tube. > > > > > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a > retired > > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of > experience. > > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I > was > > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. > My > > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked > at the > > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these > same > > concerns? > > > > > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his > design, > > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at > this > > point. What I want to know is why this load path - > through > > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable > elevator, > > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it > was > > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto > the > > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:16 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Bill, I am not an engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. :) No, not really, but I do have a fundamental understanding of load transmission through a structure. First a question, and please don't be offended. Have you had an opportunity to observe the structure of the Kolb tail while it was being folded and then again when it is bolted into place? I asked this because I found a couple of things in the plans of the Firefly that I did not understand until I was able to actually see it live. Simply put, I had trouble visualizing it from just the plans. One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried by the brace wires. I would posit that most of the forces from the tail that are transmitted to the boom tube are carried by the braces. These, when properly tensioned are actually pre-loaded slightly. This puts the tubes in compression which makes the whole thing quite strong. It also transfers the loads from the horizontals to the steel post of the verticals which in turn is transferred to the boom tube via the steel ring which is bolted and/or riveted to the tube. Of course some loads are transferred through the hinge points and the front hinge must be able to slide slightly as the elevator moves through its arc of travel. Could this be made stronger? Of course, but not without sacrificing something else such as weight or foldability. It is actually a very clever design and I suspect that the majority of loads that move through the rear hinge come from the elevator and not the stabilizer. I would also bet that the loads carried through the hinges is far below the shear and tension limits of properly installed rivets. I am actually more "freaked out" by the fact that everything in the tail depends on that one little 3/16" bolt (Firefly) that holds the lower braces in place. Really, the threads on that bolt are all there is between you and falling out of the sky. To combat this irrationality I swap out the bolt fairly often and the nuts even more often. If it really bothered me, I would stay on the ground. :) Perhaps you could send a copy of your plans to Barnaby Wainfan and ask for his analysis. I hear he is a really nice guy. From reading his articles over the years I am sure he could provide the answers you seek. As Uncle Red used to say: "Remember, if women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM The rear attachment of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is through the rear folding weldments that also act as the inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not sure how you would make it any simpler. Rick Girard On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a question about the tail attachment mechanism. Before I even mention the question, I want to assure everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking about is the theoretical "correctness" of the design, and whether any other "old-school" airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. It took a few moments to finally understand how the mechanism works, and after looking at everything several times it was clear that there is no direct structural attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style extruded hinge. So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the steel ring at the back of the fuselage. But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. My question for any real, degreed, qualified, aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same concerns? ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this point. What I want to know is why this load path - through two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:35 PM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I suffer from the same 50 year malady you mentioned earlier, but would suggest you propose to your aero/ structures engineer friend a couple of alternate details. I would agree that the structural configuration is non standard, with the appearance of some odd geometric coupling, but it has clearly worked well for many years and tens of thousands of hours fleet time regardless of the Las Vegas odd makers. The main point is the loads are very small compared to the strength of the hardware...arguably by more than an order of magnitude. Flying downloads on the horizontal tail are probably in the 50 lb maybe 100 lb at the most to provide flyable static pitch and speed stability. Low aspect ratio and taper puts the center of pressure fairly close to the wire bracing attachments, probably forward and inboard, so most of these downloads are taken out as tension in those wires and compression in the vertical stabilizer tube. Smaller loads are reacted at the root bolts and across the hinges. One would not attempt to design the structure for full elevator deflection at Vne, so reasonably one would only ever see relatively modest changes in the aero down loads throughout the flight spectrum. A fairly extreme case that would develop very high pitch rates and require elevator correction would be full power to idle or the reverse. That would produce about 300 lb of force at maybe 2 ft above the cg and would require a change in tail download of about 40 lb assuming the moment arm is about 15 ft. So thats 20 lb per side. Each of the hinge rivets assuming they are 1/8th inch is good for 120 lbs single shear. The load is shared by lots of rivets. The bolts are I believe 5/16 which are good for 5,500 lb single shear even if only grade 5. I would argue that the hinges, dozens of rivets and large diameter pivoting bolts appear to be overdesigned for the basic small aero loads of this aircraft. Fatigue loads from the prop wash swirl could be an issue, but apparently not from fleet experience. Ultimate static strength is most likely dictated by the aluminum tubing substructure, not by the rivets, hinges, or support bolts.... I recommend not trying to improve the design! Bob -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :) With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not falling out of the sky. Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Dennis Rowe Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any second. Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be imminent. Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It won't fall apart. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > The rear attachment > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is > through the rear folding weldments that also act as the > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > sure how you would make it any simpler. > Rick Girard > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer > attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > design, and whether any other "old-school" > airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > mechanism works, and after looking at everything several > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > extruded hinge. > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same > concerns? > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this > point. What I want to know is why this load path - through > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > ========== > > br> > fts!) > > r> >> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > -- > Blessed > are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:40 PM PST US From: Jim Baker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Now the onus is on you. Post one single incident of horizontal stab/elevator failure. Just one. On the other hand, they are experimental and you, the builder, are the experimenter. Press on. Could care less. Jim Baker 405 426 5377 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle Sent: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:39 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :) With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not falling out of the sky. Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM Dennis Rowe Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any second. Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be imminent. Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It won't fall apart. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > The rear attachment > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is > through the rear folding weldments that also act as the > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > sure how you would make it any simpler. > Rick Girard > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer > attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > design, and whether any other "old-school" > airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > mechanism works, and after looking at everything several > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > extruded hinge. > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same > concerns? > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this > point. What I want to know is why this load path - through > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > > > ========== > > br> > fts!) > > r> >> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Blessed > are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > > > > > Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Larry Cottrell Berle wrote: "I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of th e people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours an d Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :)" Not to put too fine a point on the discussion, but the reason that you heard the phrase that you knew would be coming, is that we too have seen this all before as well. I have at least one friend that always had to improve every thing that he bought, simply because that was his disease. That's ok, what ever spins your prop. If reinventing the wheel is your thing, give er hell. I have had VG's for years, as have quite a few of the guys. I have had 4130 longer gear legs for at least a couple of years, so have quite a few of the guy's. Yep, it helps the plane perform better. I have also crashed at least three times and the worst that I got besides humility was a sprained left middle finger. So I personally am a fan of the way that Homer designed the plane. It fits my mission perfectly. If the one that you bought does not fit the mission as you see it, by all means tweak it any way that makes you happy. I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this and a bit of that would make the plane perform just fine with one of the other types of engines. I don't think any of them are still flying them because it turned a perfectly fine plane into something that flew like a C150, and was about as much fun to fly as watching grass grow. Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have at it. I know one guy that just had to have a 1/2 VW on his plane. We on the list went through about 2 years of trying and eventually he gave up, sold the plane and never flew again. So you see, we too have seen some of this before. Now I personally don't want to hurt your feelings, but the little smiley face in your message didn't quite take all the sting out of your last post. We will see if I can do a bit better, or at least as good. No body here cares if you can improve your plane. It is your and yours alone, tweak it any way you like. If it is a real improvement we might want to do the same, just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want and need. :-) Larry On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 1:33 PM, Bob wrote: > > I suffer from the same 50 year malady you mentioned earlier, but would > suggest you propose to your aero/ structures engineer > friend a couple of alternate details. I would agree that the structural > configuration is non standard, with the appearance of some odd geometric > coupling, but it has clearly worked well for many years and tens of > thousands of hours fleet time regardless of the Las Vegas odd makers. > > The main point is the loads are very small compared to the strength of th e > hardware...arguably by more than an order of magnitude. > > Flying downloads on the horizontal tail are probably in the > 50 lb maybe 100 lb at the most to provide flyable static pitch and speed > stability. Low aspect ratio and taper puts the center of pressure fairly > close to the wire bracing attachments, probably forward and inboard, so > most > of these downloads are taken out as tension in those wires and compressio n > in the vertical stabilizer tube. Smaller loads are reacted at the root > bolts and across the hinges. One would not attempt to design the structu re > for full elevator deflection at > Vne, so reasonably one would only ever see relatively modest changes in t he > aero down loads throughout the flight spectrum. A fairly extreme case th at > would develop very high pitch rates and require elevator correction would > be > full power to idle or the reverse. That would produce about 300 lb of > force > at maybe 2 ft > above the cg and would require a change in tail download of about > 40 lb assuming the moment arm is about 15 ft. So that=99s 20 lb pe r side. > Each of the hinge rivets assuming they are 1/8th inch is good for 120 lbs > single shear. The load is shared by lots of rivets. The bolts are I > believe 5/16 which are good for 5,500 lb single shear even if only grade 5. > I would argue that the hinges, dozens of rivets and large diameter pivoti ng > bolts appear > to be overdesigned for the basic small aero loads of this aircraft. > Fatigue > loads from the prop wash swirl could be an issue, > but apparently not from fleet experience. > > Ultimate static strength is most likely dictated by the aluminum tubing > substructure, not by the rivets, hinges, or support bolts.... > > I recommend not trying to improve the design! > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 10:39 AM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > > > I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of t he > people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours > and > Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy anoth er > Kolb :) > > With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not > falling out of the sky. > > Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge te ll > me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as > good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thi n > wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, an d > with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever > loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft > structure > but also attaching a primary control surface ? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM > > Dennis Rowe > > Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 > hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two > 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The > horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any > second. > Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be > imminent. =F0=9F=98=89 > Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It > won't fall apart. > > > Dennis "Skid" Rowe > Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage.=F0=9F=98=B1 > > > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle >> > wrote: > >> >> >> I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated >> > that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection > between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the > load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward > through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the > U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the > elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the > stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you > could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the > elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > >> >> Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down >> > movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets > that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no > significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. > Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up > and down by hand and this movement would bend the > (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would > attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the > thin metal back and forth. > >> >> Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer >> > attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to > be able to slide back and forth a little. > >> >> The only thing that is gained by this unusual >> > structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair > of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any > one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance >> > upgrade for light aircraft > >> www.grantstar.net >> > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard >> > wrote: > >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge >> > ass'y > >> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" >> > > >> Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM >> >> The rear attachment >> of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. >> > It is > >> through the rear folding weldments that also act as >> > the > >> inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line >> > is > >> on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, >> however there is some allowance for misalignment. In >> > that > >> case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of >> > the > >> elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel >> weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit >> Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in >> > my > >> HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to >> fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt >> > that > >> attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not >> sure how you would make it any simpler. >> Rick Girard >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 >> at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle >> wrote: >> Bill Berle >> >> >> >> Are there any Kolb people on this list who are >> > qualified > >> mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask >> > a > >> question about the tail attachment mechanism. >> >> >> >> Before I even mention the question, I want to assure >> everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X >> thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this >> > stabilizer > >> attachment. I understand that there have not been many >> > (or > >> perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am >> > asking > >> about is the theoretical "correctness" of the >> design, and whether any other "old-school" >> airplane people think that this system is a little >> > wonky. > >> >> >> >> It took a few moments to finally understand how the >> mechanism works, and after looking at everything >> > several > >> times it was clear that there is no direct structural >> attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer >> > to > >> the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural >> > load > >> path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar >> > tube > >> and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator >> hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style >> extruded hinge. >> >> >> >> So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the >> > root > >> end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through >> > the > >> hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into >> > the > >> steel ring at the back of the fuselage. >> >> >> >> But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The >> larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge >> > is > >> riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of >> contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root >> stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself >> > is > >> cantilevered off of one tangent point on the >> > tube. > >> >> >> >> Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a >> mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a >> > retired > >> aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of >> > experience. > >> I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I >> > was > >> informed that my concerns about this system were valid. >> > My > >> Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. >> >> >> >> My question for any real, degreed, qualified, >> aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked >> > at the > >> stabilizer root attachment load path and had these >> > same > >> concerns? >> >> >> >> ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his >> > design, > >> and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at >> > this > >> point. What I want to know is why this load path - >> > through > >> two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable >> > elevator, > >> and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it >> > was > >> not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto >> > the > >> fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. >> >> >> >> >> >> Bill Berle >> >> www.ezflaphandle.com >> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> >> www.grantstar.net >> - winning proposals for >> > non-profit and for-profit > >> entities >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> >> br> >> fts!) >> >> r> >> >>> >>> w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com >> >> rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> -Matt >> > Dralle, List Admin. > >> >> ========== >> >> -List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> >> ========== >> >> FORUMS - >> >> eferrer" >> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> ========== >> >> b Site - >> >> -Matt >> > Dralle, List Admin. > >> >> rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> =9CBlessed >> are the cracked, for they shall let in the >> > light.=9D Groucho > >> Marx >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser. Click on > more about > Gifts provided > www.buildersbooks.com > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Rick Neilsen Bill It might be helpful to look at a completed airplane. You may not be visualizing correctly the drawings you are looking at. The design works and it can be folded. Years ago we had a guy that felt he had to fix everything on the Kolb MKIII that he was building. He made a valiant effort in completing the plane. He must have spent 3-4 thousand extra hours working on all the changes. Luckily he never completed the airplane. He was a great guy and is still alive because he didn't ever fly that plane. My advice is build the plane exactly by the plans. There are a few really good changes that a few people have tried to tell you about but??? If you absolutely must make all the changes you are talking about get real good insurance for your love ones and DO NOT call it a Kolb. Don't even mention it started as a Kolb kit. Also please quit talking about all the issues you think are wrong, somebody might think you know what you are talking about and hurt themselves too. Sorry the proof is in the massive hours in the fleet. Did anyone ever tell you about one of the Kolb employees that took a plane up and intentionally tried to tear the plane apart. He finally with considerable effort ripped the wings off, he threw out a chute and later fixed the point of failure. Our planes are well designed and tested. Even with all that evidence I will still say my advice is worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of > the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of > hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to > buy another Kolb :) > > With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not > falling out of the sky. > > Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge > tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considere d > as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a > thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact poin t, > and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that > cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary > aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM > > Dennis Rowe > > Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 > hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two > 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The > horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any > second. > Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be > imminent. =F0=9F=98=89 > Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It > won't fall apart. > > > Dennis "Skid" Rowe > Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage.=F0=9F=98=B1 > > > > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > > > > > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated > that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection > between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the > load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward > through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the > U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the > elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the > stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you > could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the > elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down > movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets > that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no > significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. > Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up > and down by hand and this movement would bend the > (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would > attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the > thin metal back and forth. > > > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer > attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to > be able to slide back and forth a little. > > > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual > structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair > of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any > one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance > upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge > ass'y > > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > > > The rear attachment > > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. > It is > > through the rear folding weldments that also act as > the > > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line > is > > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In > that > > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of > the > > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in > my > > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt > that > > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > > sure how you would make it any simpler. > > Rick Girard > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > > wrote: > > Bill Berle > > > > > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are > qualified > > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask > a > > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this > stabilizer > > attachment. I understand that there have not been many > (or > > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am > asking > > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > > design, and whether any other "old-school" > > airplane people think that this system is a little > wonky. > > > > > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > > mechanism works, and after looking at everything > several > > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer > to > > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural > load > > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar > tube > > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > > extruded hinge. > > > > > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the > root > > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through > the > > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into > the > > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge > is > > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself > is > > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the > tube. > > > > > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a > retired > > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of > experience. > > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I > was > > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. > My > > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked > at the > > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these > same > > concerns? > > > > > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his > design, > > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at > this > > point. What I want to know is why this load path - > through > > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable > elevator, > > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it > was > > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto > the > > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > > > www.ezflaphandle.com > > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > > > www.grantstar.net > > - winning proposals for > non-profit and for-profit > > entities > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > br> > > fts!) > > > > r> > >> > > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > > > rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > ========== > > > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > > > ========== > > > > FORUMS - > > > > eferrer" > > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > ========== > > > > b Site - > > > > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > =9CBlessed > > are the cracked, for they shall let in the > light.=9D Groucho > > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lists This Month -- > Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > Raiser. Click on > more about > Gifts provided > www.buildersbooks.com > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:40:15 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Thank you all for the replies. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this, without people thinking that I am trashing the aircraft, or insulting Mr. Kolb's legacy. Yes I had considered that some part of the tail loads are carried by the brace wires, this is why I referred to the questionable part as the stabilizer "root loads" instead of the whole stabilizer. Of course, just like a strut braced wing there is a large "inward" (compression) load on the tube, but since the elevator is tapered there is still a large portion of the force generated that is vertical at the root end. Those rivets holding the hinge may well be capable of 120 pounds in shear, or perhaps even in tension. I have no quarrel whatsoever with the strength of the rivets on such a light and slow aircraft. And yes there are a lot of them. But the angular ORIENTATION of the hinges, and the fact that the hinges are somewhat "cantilevered" as I have called it, puts a "peel" load on those fasteners, like a crow bar trying to peel and pop the heads off the rivets at an angle. That is probably the worst case for those rivets. The failure mode would be that the loads are rocking the rivets slowly back and forth, loosening them. Also, the hinges themselves are not designed for the loads to be hanging out 3/8 or 1/2 inch from their attachment, like a diving board. One person replied that I may not be understanding the mechanism, and how it folds, and that the front attachment moves a little. I have taken a little time to study the plans and try to understand this. I believe that I understand it (whether I agree with the design or not). If the rear stabilizer attachment is in fact located on exactly the same axis as the elevator hinge, then the front of the stabilizer should not need to move fore and aft at all with elevator deflection. Elevator deflection could create fore-aft (or up-down) movement ONLY if there IS some amount of offset between the hinge axis and the rear stabilizer mounting. If the two axes are concentric, there could not be any linear motion by definition. I believe that the only reason the front stabilizer attachment has to be able to slide a little is because in reality for the average builder it is very difficult to locate the hinges at precisely the center of the welded elevator horn/ pivot mechanism. Without any jig or fixture to guarantee the exact location of the hinge pin in open space, it is etoo asy for the hinge pin to be a little bit fore-aft or up-down... while the holes are drilled and the rivets are installed. So I am guessing that to make it easier for the builder, and to prevent binding and cracking of the parts, the front attachment was left a little loose and the rear attachment was eliminated. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:35 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Addendum - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y With all sincerest respect to Mr. Wainfan and any other great engineers out there who might be monitoring this discussion, the credentials and field experience of the engineer (who I asked to review the elevator attachment) are high enough for the purposes of settling any questions about the appropriateness of any particular aircraft structure. He is a graduate of the 1950's DeHavilland Aircraft Engineering program in England (from youth apprenticeship up through engineering degree in aerostructures and metallurgy), and I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger cannot physically lift his aerospace resume' . Any further comment on his achievements or abilities would sound like an infomercial, so I will leave it at that. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Stuart Harner wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 12:27 PM "Stuart Harner" Bill, I am not an engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. :) No, not really, but I do have a fundamental understanding of load transmission through a structure. First a question, and please don't be offended. Have you had an opportunity to observe the structure of the Kolb tail while it was being folded and then again when it is bolted into place? I asked this because I found a couple of things in the plans of the Firefly that I did not understand until I was able to actually see it live. Simply put, I had trouble visualizing it from just the plans. One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried by the brace wires. I would posit that most of the forces from the tail that are transmitted to the boom tube are carried by the braces. These, when properly tensioned are actually pre-loaded slightly. This puts the tubes in compression which makes the whole thing quite strong. It also transfers the loads from the horizontals to the steel post of the verticals which in turn is transferred to the boom tube via the steel ring which is bolted and/or riveted to the tube. Of course some loads are transferred through the hinge points and the front hinge must be able to slide slightly as the elevator moves through its arc of travel. Could this be made stronger? Of course, but not without sacrificing something else such as weight or foldability. It is actually a very clever design and I suspect that the majority of loads that move through the rear hinge come from the elevator and not the stabilizer. I would also bet that the loads carried through the hinges is far below the shear and tension limits of properly installed rivets. I am actually more "freaked out" by the fact that everything in the tail depends on that one little 3/16" bolt (Firefly) that holds the lower braces in place. Really, the threads on that bolt are all there is between you and falling out of the sky. To combat this irrationality I swap out the bolt fairly often and the nuts even more often. If it really bothered me, I would stay on the ground. :) Perhaps you could send a copy of your plans to Barnaby Wainfan and ask for his analysis. I hear he is a really nice guy. From reading his articles over the years I am sure he could provide the answers you seek. As Uncle Red used to say: "Remember, if women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:30 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM The rear attachment of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is through the rear folding weldments that also act as the inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not sure how you would make it any simpler. Rick Girard On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a question about the tail attachment mechanism. Before I even mention the question, I want to assure everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking about is the theoretical "correctness" of the design, and whether any other "old-school" airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. It took a few moments to finally understand how the mechanism works, and after looking at everything several times it was clear that there is no direct structural attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style extruded hinge. So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the steel ring at the back of the fuselage. But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. My question for any real, degreed, qualified, aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same concerns? ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this point. What I want to know is why this load path - through two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.Groucho Marx Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:14 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Wow. Please forgive me if anyone thought that I was being too aggressive or questioning. Holy Mackerel, I was discussing innovation, experimentation, and individuality in light aircraft construction. Apparently there is no room for improvement in the design, and there were no compromises made in manufacturing the kits. Thankfully, none of this reliance on status quo was in force back when Mr. Kolb was experimenting with a new way to build and improve on his personal aircraft designs. My sincerest apology for the unintended effect of there being a "Sting" in any of my comments. Absolutely unintentional. >From this point I will try to constrain my questions and comments within direct relevance to the existing design, or what has been done (or modified) already. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Rick Neilsen wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 1:19 PM Bill It might be helpful to look at a completed airplane. You may not be visualizing correctly the drawings you are looking at. The design works and it can be folded. Years ago we had a guy that felt he had to fix everything on the Kolb MKIII that he was building. He made a valiant effort in completing the plane. He must have spent 3-4 thousand extra hours working on all the changes. Luckily he never completed the airplane. He was a great guy and is still alive because he didn't ever fly that plane. My advice is build the plane exactly by the plans. There are a few really good changes that a few people have tried to tell you about but??? If you absolutely must make all the changes you are talking about get real good insurance for your love ones and DO NOT call it a Kolb. Don't even mention it started as a Kolb kit. Also please quit talking about all the issues you think are wrong, somebody might think you know what you are talking about and hurt themselves too. Sorry the proof is in the massive hours in the fleet. Did anyone ever tell you about one of the Kolb employees that took a plane up and intentionally tried to tear the plane apart. He finally with considerable effort ripped the wings off, he threw out a chute and later fixed the point of failure. Our planes are well designed and tested. Even with all that evidence I will still say my advice is worth what you paid for it. Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle I wish I could have placed a bet in Las Vegas as to how quickly some of the people would jump in and say that these airplanes have X number of hours and Y number of landings without failure. I would have been able to buy another Kolb :) With all due respect to everyone, I KNOW that these airplanes are not falling out of the sky. Now, also with all due respect, can someone with engineering knowledge tell me, ON A TECHNICAL ENGINEERING level, how it could EVER be considered as good design practice to essentially cantilever a piano hinge off of a thin wall round tube, with one line of rivets at the tangent contact point, and with flight loads often perpendicular to that axis, where that cantilever loaded hinge is not only connecting two pieces of primary aircraft structure but also attaching a primary control surface ? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 9:59 AM Dennis Rowe Somebody notify John Hauck, as Miss Pfer has around 4000 hours on her airframe and has taken an eighty horse and two 100 horse Rotax 912 engines well toward their TBO! The horizontal stabilizer must be ready to fall off at any second. Maybe I can get a good deal on her since her demise must be imminent. Bill, just build the dang Firestar to plans and fly it. It won't fall apart. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk-3 Rotax 690, with a stock Kolb empennage. > On Mar 21, 2016, at 6:29 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no traditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fuselage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rearward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from either the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinges, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator remained bolted to the fuselage. > > Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabilizer is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, and there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essentially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand and this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material. This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. > > Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a loose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a little. > > The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 2:40 PM > > The rear attachment > of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is > through the rear folding weldments that also act as the > inner hinge. When it is set up correctly the hinge line is > on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weldment, > however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that > case the weldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the > elevator), can slide on the bolt in the swivel > weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit > Fox and repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my > HO Homer's is the most clever. All you have to do to > fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a single bolt that > attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not > sure how you would make it any simpler. > Rick Girard > On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 > at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified > mechanical or aero-structure engineers? I want to ask a > question about the tail attachment mechanism. > > > > Before I even mention the question, I want to assure > everyone that I AM COMPLETELY AWARE that there are X > thousand Kolbs flying around safely with this stabilizer > attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or > perhaps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking > about is the theoretical "correctness" of the > design, and whether any other "old-school" > airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. > > > > It took a few moments to finally understand how the > mechanism works, and after looking at everything several > times it was clear that there is no direct structural > attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to > the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load > path between the root end of the main stabilizer spar tube > and the fuselage is transmitted through the elevator > hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style > extruded hinge. > > > > So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root > end of the stabilizer, it puts all that load through the > hinge, into the elevator pivot, and then finally into the > steel ring at the back of the fuselage. > > > > But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The > larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is > riveted to the tubes along one thin "point of > contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root > stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is > cantilevered off of one tangent point on the tube. > > > > Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a > mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired > aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of experience. > I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was > informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My > Kolb will be built with a more stable attachment. > > > > My question for any real, degreed, qualified, > aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the > stabilizer root attachment load path and had these same > concerns? > > > > ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, > and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this > point. What I want to know is why this load path - through > two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a movable elevator, > and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was > not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the > fuselage at the rear stabilizer spar. > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > > > ========== > > br> > fts!) > > r> >> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Blessed > are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.Groucho > Marx > > > > > > Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: undoctor QmlsbCwKSWYgeW91IHNlYXJjaCB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZSBhcmNoaXZlcyBvciBHb29nbGUgS29sYiBB aXJjcmFmdCBoaXN0b3J5LCB5b3UgbWF5IGZpbmQgYSBwaG90byBvZiBIb21lciBzaXR0aW5nIG9u IGhpcyBLb2xiIEZseWVyIGRhdGVkIDE5NTYuIFRoYXQncyBhYm91dCA2MCB5ZWFycyBhZ28gYW5k 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Quite the contrary; if I remember correctly, my first post on the subject that started all this turmoil was actually asking about whether other people had questioned this before I came along, and what the reasons were for designing that mechanism in a counter-intuitive manner. I was more surprised than anyone to find that I appeared to be the first person who asked about it. Bill On Tue, 3/22/16, undoctor wrote: I believe the problem lies in that, whether or not you realize it, you come across as having the opinion that before you came on the scene there was never anyone who could think things through as thoroughly and analytically as you.Trust me when I tell you that that's a huge error. Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:58 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this and a bit of that would make the plane perform just fine with one of the other types of engines. Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have at it. Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane. just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want and need. :-) Larry -------------------------------------------- This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas... am I right about this? The majority of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time have had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even the people who have figured out how to reliably operate the 2 strokes recommend against it when I say that I'm based out of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it would be quick, cheap and easy to just bolt a 503 on the FireStar like it was designed for. I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend a truly reliable engine for this aircraft (for safe flying over a densely populated area) that is as affordable as a used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines that are not affordable. I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different priority requirement than most of the Kolb operators do. I need something that is more reliable than the Rotax 2 strokes. Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:06 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Bill B/Kolbers: I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four stroke power plant for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of ULs and home builts. Sometimes one must pay for what he wants. I have. Haven't had an engine out in well over 3,000 hours. Did have a couple engine outs caused by bad fuel, but that was pilot error and had nothing to do with engine reliability. Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our experience, but it seems you don't want to hear what we have to say. By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge problem. If you want to change yours when you get around to getting your hands dirty and actually building a Kolb, have at it. john h mkIII Fort Campbell, Kentucky -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:03 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this and a bit of that would make the plane perform just fine with one of the other types of engines. Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have at it. Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane. just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want and need. :-) Larry -------------------------------------------- This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas... am I right about this? The majority of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time have had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even the people who have figured out how to reliably operate the 2 strokes recommend against it when I say that I'm based out of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it would be quick, cheap and easy to just bolt a 503 on the FireStar like it was designed for. I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend a truly reliable engine for this aircraft (for safe flying over a densely populated area) that is as affordable as a used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines that are not affordable. I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different priority requirement than most of the Kolb operators do. I need something that is more reliable than the Rotax 2 strokes. Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed? ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:47 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Addendum - Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: "Leland.Lam" I think a question you might want to consider is are your credentials of being a test pilot strong enough that you can make a design change that can result in an uncertain outcome? I have spent 25 years in engineering, testing and manufacturing. I am hesitant to stray to far from a known and working design.... at least when I am the test pilot. Just food for thought. :D -------- Kolb Mark III Classic Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454005#454005 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:31 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Larry Cottrell Bill, I am not interested in getting into a pissing match. You wrote-"This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas." I am under the impression that you intended this for back country use. This is the first I have heard of heavily populated areas. Even so, I don't see a problem either way. I flew a 503 to Demming NM and back to Oregon on a 503. The only problem I had was the amount of gas that it took. I have had one forced landing while flying a two stroke. I got into a situation that I needed to fly my plane after a long lay off, and before I had done an annual. I lost a spark plug cap on my way back home. I was flying a 447 at the time (single ignition) That was when I sprained my middle finger. Other than that I never had a problem. I am afraid that the reputation of the two strokes is for the most part put forth by the Spam can pilots who shudder at the thought of flying any thing uncertified much less one of our toys. Or people who are unable to maintain their engines as they should. What ever, it doesn't matter. So far you have had good advice, that is one of the things that we on the list pride ourselves about. It is not apparent to me that you are accepting any of it. The Kolb with the proper engine is a fun reliable airplane even if built to standard plans. VG's help a lot, making it even safer and more fun to fly. Longer gear legs help as well. In my opinion the stock alum. legs is the only weak spot on the plane, but then again Homer intended it to be a weak spot so as to fail before the cage was damaged. In my case it appeared, at least to me, to cause more damage than it prevented, therefore the 4130 spring steel gear legs. If there is one thing that I have learned, its that it is by far the best to only do something once, and do it right the first time. I borrowed from my 401 K to buy an HKS. I then paid myself back with interest. I didn't buy it for the reliability, I bought it because a 503 would not get me to another airport without taking extra gas with me. It has been a bit of work, but it has been worth it. I do not intend to scrimp on my safety, for the sake of saving a few pennies. Of course I have been flying a Firestar for 19 years, so I am pretty happy with it. There are a hell of a lot of very smart and handy guys on this list. I would hazard a guess that we have managed to screw up a few times and in the process learned a hell of a lot. All that experience is available to you, and almost all of us will make the effort to pass it on to you, If you appear to listen. Perhaps I am wrong, but I haven't noticed much listening on your part. I would guess the closest thing to an engineer on this list would be Jack Hart. Personally from my experience that may be a good thing. You wrote- "Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed?" Perhaps I am an overly sensitive person, but as they say "paranoia is merely an heightened sense of reality". If you haven't done much to the Kit that you received, perhaps Kolb would consider taking it back. That is if you are not happy with it or think it is unsafe. If you do decide to keep it, make what ever changes you think best. It is "experimental" after all. You are free to make any changes you see fit. Now I don't know about you, but this is my last comment on the subject. Respectfully, Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:44 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Guys, I cannot believe what has happened here. The moment I asked a couple of technical questions, and then explained my reasoning for simply asking the question, people panicked, got insulted, and painted me as the bad guy who's trashing a good airplane, or not wanting to hear what anyone else said, etc. A Heathen !!! I came to this list respectfully, asking for discussion and correspondence, and perhaps even friendly debate about this stuff, NEVER ONCE saying I was smarter than anyone, and NEVER ONCE saying I didn't want to hear about the experiences of more experienced Kolbers. I had/have all sorts of ideas about modifications, and adjustments, and upgrades and what not. I was just looking for a place to discuss them, de-bunk them, argue the pros and cons of any given idea, and brainstorm with like-minded Kolbers, etc. The aircraft is indeed intended to be operated as a back country or off-airport fun machine, but I am still based at a city municipal airport that requires me to fly over solid city and houses to get into or out from that airport. So for at least the first and last 10 minutes of every flight, I need a high level of reliability. I also don't want to get stuck out in the middle of the desert either, even with no houses below me. There's !(#*% rattlesnakes out there. There is a good chance that my home airport won't even want me to fly this aircraft there if I used a 2 stroke. Like I said, I will limit my future questions on this list to things that relate to the original Kolb plans and design. Any creative ideas, or new approaches, or innovtive thinking stuff... I'll have to go back and discuss that on HBA where people are not offended. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 3/22/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2016, 4:31 PM "John Hauck" Bill B/Kolbers: I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four stroke power plant for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of ULs and home builts. Sometimes one must pay for what he wants. I have. Haven't had an engine out in well over 3,000 hours. Did have a couple engine outs caused by bad fuel, but that was pilot error and had nothing to do with engine reliability. Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our experience, but it seems you don't want to hear what we have to say. By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge problem. If you want to change yours when you get around to getting your hands dirty and actually building a Kolb, have at it. john h mkIII Fort Campbell, Kentucky -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:03 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y On Tue, 3/22/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: I have also seen several guys on the list that were convinced that a bit of this and a bit of that would make the plane perform just fine with one of the other types of engines. Again, you are a big boy, and apparently you have a better idea, by all mean have at it. Nobody here cares if you can improve your plane. just try to not tell me how stupid I am because mine does just exactly what I want and need. :-) Larry -------------------------------------------- This aircraft will be flying over a densely populated area. I believe the vast majority of Kolbs are not being flown over populated areas... am I right about this? The majority of people who have flown with 2 stroke engines over time have had emergency landings due to inflight failures. Even the people who have figured out how to reliably operate the 2 strokes recommend against it when I say that I'm based out of a big city municipal airport. So my discussion about alternate engines was based on this reality. Believe me, it would be quick, cheap and easy to just bolt a 503 on the FireStar like it was designed for. I'd be absolutely thankful if you would be able to recommend a truly reliable engine for this aircraft (for safe flying over a densely populated area) that is as affordable as a used 503 2 stroke. I already know where to look for engines that are not affordable. I do NOT "have a better idea", I just have a different priority requirement than most of the Kolb operators do. I need something that is more reliable than the Rotax 2 strokes. Did me or anyone else tell you that you were stupid, at any time, inferred or expressed? Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. Click on more about Gifts provided www.buildersbooks.com -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:55 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: "Richard Pike" Bill - take a deep breath. Prop your feet up. Relax. Nobody is mad, it's just that you are amongst a bunch of old curmudgeons and we are doing what we do. Having said that, I noticed something in your last post that says volumes to me; "There is a good chance that my home airport won't even want me to fly this aircraft there if I used a 2 stroke." OK.... I think I see the problem I have a beloved daughter who is married to a nice guy who lives in LA. I raised that child right, she has her head on straight, but after several years of living in LA, she has adopted some really odd concepts, probably to get along with her fruits and nuts peer group. Peer pressure can be tough. Brother Bill, I have said all that to say this: if you get a Kolb, you will be really out of the mainstream at a GA airport that expects you to be a conformist, and you have 2 options: try to conform to their expectations, stay frustrated, and look at your really neat little airplane like they do - with a critical and jaundiced eye - always looking for and finding something else to criticize. Or... Stand up for yourself and your airplane and take no prisoners. I went out to the hangar today and looked at the tail and the elevator hinge. I looked at the rivits. I moved the elevator up and down, I looked at the cables, I thought about it a bit. I decided that while I have a number of problems in my life, the tail of my Kolb ain't one of them. When I transferred to TRI and started training here, my instructor Joe was half Indian, and had the worst temper of any man I ever knew. Ask any air traffic controller, they will tell you that some days are just "dummy days." Everybody on frequency is acting stupid. Joe had the solution to dummy days; he told me "Pick somebody at random and just chew his ass unmercifully: the rest of them will smarten up." Try that at you GA airport and I suspect the rest of them will not say a peep regardless of what engine you use or what your airplane looks like. And you will be a lot happier, even if people do think of you as an old curmudgeon. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454011#454011 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.