---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/23/16: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:47 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (JC Gilpin) 2. 05:33 AM - JC's foldable project... (Herb) 3. 06:31 AM - Re: JC's foldable project... (pcking) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: JC's foldable project... (Herb) 5. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Larry Cottrell) 6. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (undoctor) 7. 10:38 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (mojavjoe@comcast.net) 8. 10:41 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 9. 11:28 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (John Hauck) 10. 11:39 AM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 11. 01:50 PM - Mark III sold (Watkinsdw) 12. 07:04 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Eugene Zimmerman) 13. 07:29 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle) 14. 07:43 PM - sunset at the rock house (B Young) 15. 07:46 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:20 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: JC Gilpin I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums...... I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding. Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on. I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads involved, and history confirms that. 'nother topic - Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are replying to..... JG ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project... From: Herb JC Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics of your project.... ! I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine... Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote: > > I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has > developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into > personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums...... > > I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying > from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding. > Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be > copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on. > I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads > involved, and history confirms that. > > 'nother topic - > Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of > deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each > post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave > a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are > replying to..... > > JG > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:32 AM PST US From: "pcking" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project... Did Bill Bronson publish/sell plans for that cage? That's nice idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:32 AM Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project... > JC > > Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics > of your project.... ! > > I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my > head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many > years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of > Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine... > Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb > > > On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote: >> >> I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has >> developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into >> personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums...... >> >> I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying >> from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding. >> Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be >> copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on. >> I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads >> involved, and history confirms that. >> >> 'nother topic - >> Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of >> deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each >> post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave >> a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are >> replying to..... >> >> JG >> > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and > turn left. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project... From: Herb I received some additional pics from a guy in Mo..who knew Bill...He said that there were no plans...and he was not sure if Bill was still with us...I think the plane was hangared in the Mississippi river flood plain near St. Louis.. Looking at the pics..., Bill's knees were a bit high...indicating a lack of leg room.... Bill sold half VW conversion plans....and claimed to have a good crank,reciprocating parts balance technique.... My unbalanced Global engine would idle smoothly down to 600 rpms but had some vibration in the 2800 to 3000 rpm range where I flew it on an N3 pup.... It weighed 84 lbs..quite similar to a 447...but did not have the thrust of course...Under 2 gal's an hour....Herb On 03/23/2016 08:30 AM, pcking wrote: > > > Did Bill Bronson publish/sell plans for that cage? That's nice idea. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 8:32 AM > Subject: Kolb-List: JC's foldable project... > > >> JC >> >> Bet we would all be impressed to see a drawing or some progress pics >> of your project.... ! >> >> I have been, for some years, rolling the Fourstar around in my >> head... It would look much like the one that Bill Bronson build many >> years ago...He modified or built a cro molly fuselage for a set of >> Firestar wings and tail feathers..It was powered by a half vw engine... >> Here are a couple of low res pic... (have more) Herb >> >> >> >> On 03/23/2016 04:46 AM, JC Gilpin wrote: >>> >>> I'm impressed with the gentlemanly manner that this discussion has >>> developed. Good points, right to the point, without getting into >>> personal flaming. Much more decent than many other forums...... >>> >>> I put a couple of hundred hours on a FireFly and a FireStar, flying >>> from more than a hundred airfields, so lots of folding and unfolding. >>> Love that Kolb tail folding mechanism, absolutely brilliant! I'll be >>> copying it on a homebuilt trailerable ultralight that I'm working on. >>> I have no worries about it's strength, considering the light loads >>> involved, and history confirms that. >>> >>> 'nother topic - >>> Sure would be good if replying posters would get into the habit of >>> deleting the ever increasing trail of earlier poststhat follows each >>> post and just gets longer and longer...... Not hard to do, just leave >>> a pertinent line or two to specifically remind us what you are >>> replying to..... >>> >>> JG >>> >> >> -- >> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light >> and turn left. >> >> > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Larry Cottrell Hi, I have noticed that the messages keep getting stuck on the posts, but I was unsure if it was happening to all the emails, or just mine. Is it all emails from Kolb, or just mine. I am taking measures to stop mine, but quite frankly it is a pain in the butt. Thanks Larry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: undoctor Ckd1aWx0eSwgTGFycnkuIFRob3VnaHQgb2YgaXQgYWZ0ZXIgSSBoaXQgc2VuZC4gU29ycnkuwqAK CkRhdmUgS3VscApEbyBub3QgYXJjaGl2ZQoKU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3Mg NEcgTFRFIHNtYXJ0cGhvbmUKCjxkaXY+LS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0t LTwvZGl2PjxkaXY+RnJvbTogTGFycnkgQ290dHJlbGwgPGxjb3R0cmVsbDEwMjBAZ21haWwuY29t PiA8L2Rpdj48ZGl2PkRhdGU6MDMvMjMvMjAxNiAgMTA6NDQgQU0gIChHTVQtMDU6MDApIDwvZGl2 PjxkaXY+VG86IGtvbGItbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+U3ViamVjdDogUmU6 IEtvbGItTGlzdDogUmU6IEVsZXZhdG9yL1N0YWJpbGl6ZXIgaGluZ2UgYXNzJ3kgPC9kaXY+PGRp dj4KPC9kaXY+SGksCiAgSSBoYXZlIG5vdGljZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZXMga2VlcCBnZXR0 aW5nIHN0dWNrIG9uIHRoZSBwb3N0cywgYnV0IEkgd2FzIA= ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:30 AM PST US From: mojavjoe@comcast.net Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Aman Stuart you said it before I could! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Harner" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 3:27:54 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Bill, I am not an engineer but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night. :) No, not really, but I do have a fundamental understanding of load transmission thr ough a structure. First a question, and please don't be offended. Have you had an opportunity to observe the structure of the Kolb tail while it was being folded and th en again when it is bolted into place? I asked this because I found a coupl e of things in the plans of the Firefly that I did not understand until I w as able to actually see it live. Simply put, I had trouble visualizing it f rom just the plans. One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried by the brace wires. I would posit that most of the forces from the tail th at are transmitted to the boom tube are carried by the braces. These, when properly tensioned are actually pre-loaded slightly. This puts the tubes in compression which makes the whole thing quite strong. It also transfers th e loads from the horizontals to the steel post of the verticals which in tu rn is transferred to the boom tube via the steel ring which is bolted and/o r riveted to the tube. Of course some loads are transferred through the hinge points and the front hinge must be able to slide slightly as the elevator moves through its arc of travel. Could this be made stronger? Of course, but not without sacrifi cing something else such as weight or foldability. It is actually a very cl ever design and I suspect that the majority of loads that move through the rear hinge come from the elevator and not the stabilizer. I would also bet that the loads carried through the hinges is far below the shear and tension limits of properly installed rivets. I am actually more "freaked out" by the fact that everything in the tail de pends on that one little 3/16" bolt (Firefly) that holds the lower braces i n place. Really, the threads on that bolt are all there is between you and falling out of the sky. To combat this irrationality I swap out the bolt fa irly often and the nuts even more often. If it really bothered me, I would stay on the ground. :) Perhaps you could send a copy of your plans to Barnaby Wainfan and ask for his analysis. I hear he is a really nice guy. From reading his articles ove r the years I am sure he could provide the answers you seek. As Uncle Red used to say: "Remember, if women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy" Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y I hope I'm wrong, but my review of the plans indicated that there is no tra ditional DIRECT structural connection between the rear spar tube and the fu selage tube. All the load paths have to take a serpentine route and go rear ward through the elevator hinges first, and only then into the U-joint and pivot bolt in the steel ring. If you removed the elevator hinges (from eith er the elevator or the stabilizer), or if you took the pin out of the hinge s, you could move the stabilizer up and down freely while the elevator rema ined bolted to the fuselage. Even WITH all the hinges in place, all up and down movement of the stabiliz er is transmitted through the rivets that hold the hinge onto the tubes, an d there is no significant stiffness or bracing against this movement. Essen tially you could move the root end of the stabilizer up and down by hand an d this movement would bend the (un-supported section of) the hinge material . This would attempt to pry the rivets out of the tube and/or bend the thin metal back and forth. Also, because of this design the forward stabilizer attach bolt must be a l oose fit, and the stabilizer has to be able to slide back and forth a littl e. The only thing that is gained by this unusual structural load path is that 4 ounces of weight for a pair of fittings (at the rear stabilizer spar) is saved. Can any one explain to me why this was a good bargain? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www. grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 3/21/16, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y The rear attachment of the horizontal stabilizer is NOT through the hinge. It is through the re ar folding weldments that also act as the inner hinge. When it is set up co rrectly the hinge line is on the same center as the swivel bolt in the weld ment, however there is some allowance for misalignment. In that case the we ldment in the elevator spar (forward tube of the elevator), can slide on th e bolt in the swivel weldment.I've seen folding mechanisms on the Kit Fox a nd repaired the mechanism on the Highlander and in my HO Homer's is the mos t clever. All you have to do to fold the HS on a Kolb is to take out a sing le bolt that attaches the lower wires to the rudder post. I'm not sure how you would make it any simpler. Rick Girard On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 12:55 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle Are there any Kolb people on this list who are qualified mechanical or aero -structure engineers? I want to ask a question about the tail attachment me chanism. Before I even mention the question, I want to assure everyone that I AM COM PLETELY AWARE that there are X thousand Kolbs flying around safely with thi s stabilizer attachment. I understand that there have not been many (or per haps any) failures of this mechanism. What I am asking about is the theoret ical "correctness" of the design, and whether any other "old-school" airplane people think that this system is a little wonky. It took a few moments to finally understand how the mechanism works, and af ter looking at everything several times it was clear that there is no direc t structural attachment between the main spar tube of the stabilizer to the fuselage tube (tailboom). The primary structural load path between the roo t end of the main stabilizer spar tube and the fuselage is transmitted thro ugh the elevator hinge... and this hinge isn't even the aircraft style extr uded hinge. So if the air loads try to lift up or push down on the root end of the stab ilizer, it puts all that load through the hinge, into the elevator pivot, a nd then finally into the steel ring at the back of the fuselage. But that's not even the biggest issue in my head. The larger issue is that (according to plan) the flat hinge is riveted to the tubes along one thin " point of contact" line tangent to the tube. So the root stabilizer load is all acting on a hinge, which itself is cantilevered off of one tangent poin t on the tube. Now I'm not a degreed engineer, and I'm not a mathematician. So I called a friend of mine who is a retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ yea rs of experience. I showed him the plans and explained my concern, and I was informed that my concerns about this system were valid. My Kolb will be built with a more s table attachment. My question for any real, degreed, qualified, aircraft-experience engineers is... has anyone looked at the stabilizer root attachment load path and ha d these same concerns? ONCE AGAIN, this is not an attack on Mr. Kolb or his design, and it is not intended to cause any panic or concern at this point. What I want to know i s why this load path - through two tangent mounted hinge halves, into a mov able elevator, and then into the fuselage - is good enough, and why it was not appropriate to install an attachment bracket onto the fuselage at the r ear stabilizer spar. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities =========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List =========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =========== -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:41 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y On Tue, 3/22/16, John Hauck wrote: " I'll tell you if there was a cheap, reliable, alternate four stroke power plant for a Kolb aircraft, it would be flying on a lot of Kolbs and other makes of ULs and home builts. " That is exactly what Pegasus Air Power is working on with their O-100 engine. 58HP maximum and at least 50HP continuous, with "Continental aircraft engine" reliability, and 105 pounds ready to fly. Can use cheap used Continental cylinder assemblies to save money, or new ones for those who want new. I have seen this engine run, and I've seen the effort that is being put into the development. " Some of us have tried to share with you a little of our experience, but it seems you don't want to hear what we have to say." Nonsense. Y'all need to remember that there's supposed to be two sides of a discussion, not one. That's the difference between discussion/debate/brainstorming and a one-sided lecture or church sermon. "By now you should recognize there is no elevator hinge problem. " I recognized then, and now, that the loads on the rear of the stabilizer root are light on this aircraft, and that these loads are further reduced by the presence of the brace wires. Considering that the elevator pivot bolt is carried by a heavy steel ring, it is clear that the elevator pivot bolt, loaded properly in shear on both sides of the steel ring, is strong enough to carry the elevator loads and the rear stabilizer attach load. However, the load path between the elevator pivot bolt and the stabilizer root is compromised by a hinge mounting design that is questionable. So I have indeed come to the conclusion that the rear stabilizer root loads are low enough that they can be carried by the elevator pivot bolt, without a separate root attach fitting. This heated discussion served to get me fired up enough to look closely at it, and consider all options instead of just my first idea. So I have this list to thank for part of it. Now, as for the hinges themselves, one FINAL time... try to visualize this question: 1) Imagine the front door on your house. The hinges are flat piano hinges, and they're screwed on to the flat edge of the door and the flat edge of the door frame. 2) Now imagine a chain link fence post and a chain link gate, which are made out of round poles that need to be hinged together. Question 1: Why are the gate hinges are not screwed right onto the tubes like they are on your front door? Question 2: Why are the hinges for the round poles a different design than the flat hinges on your front door? Bill ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:32 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Question 1: Why are the gate hinges are not screwed right onto the tubes like they are on your front door? Question 2: Why are the hinges for the round poles a different design than the flat hinges on your front door? Bill Bill B/Kolbers: Never confronted a loose hinge on the elevator, but have experienced the bottom rudder hinge loosening rivets on my MKIII. The reason is the extreme loads placed in the area of the rudder horn. Not only is there pressure from the rudder cables one at a time, but there are times when rudder pedals are overloaded because of hard landings, crashes, or pure frightening occurrences. It is normal to push on both pedals when experiencing these events. That really loads up the bottom hinge on the rudder. I have seen people bend the hinges to conform to the tube radius. I am sure that made a stronger connection, but that amount of strength is not needed on the elevators. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:37 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y On Tue, 3/22/16, Stuart Harner wrote: " One thing that I think is missing from this discussion is the loads carried by the brace wires. " Thank you Stuart, this is the missing piece that I did not pay enough attention to originally. I had been thinking of the stabilizer root as being much more movable than it actually is, because I was looking at the root attach fittings without the brace wires. If there is a brace wire from the fin post down to the rear stabilizer spar tube, then this wire will resist some of the up-down movement at the rear of the stabilizer root. As such, the reduction of vertical load/movement at this location reduces the load on the elevator pivot mechanism. I can now be a lot more confident in there being additional resistance to vertical movement of the rear stabilizer spar, and less need for a bolted fitting at that location. Bill Berle ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:06 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Mark III sold From: "Watkinsdw" My 2001 Mk III built by Stephen Green has been purchased by a real gentleman who lives in Vernon, British Columbia. He plans to put floats on her and fly the mountain lakes there. The Kolb was picked up yesterday, and will be delivered by truck to BC later this week. Please welcome Johnny, when he no doubt joins the group in the near future. Thanks for all your camaraderie and advice over the years. I'll still be looking in from time to time, and will visit the Kolb trailer at Sun & Fun next month, but plan to fly the Piper products belonging to our flying club here at Pompano for the time being. Thanks again, and stay safe! Dave Watkins Pompano Beach, FL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454048#454048 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:32 PM PST US From: Eugene Zimmerman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y > On Mar 22, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Also, the hinges themselves are not designed for the loads to be hanging out 3/8 or 1/2 inch from their attachment, like a diving board. Bill, The surest way to compromise the structural integrity of a Kolb Aircraft is to attempt to fix a structual problem/weakness that does not actually exist. Over the years numerous kolb aircraft have experienced catastrophic violent crashes and not even in a violent crash has one ever documented a failure of the parts you hope to =9Cimprove=9D. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:28 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y Forget the !(#$(% hinges guys, like all of you have said over and over and over they don't fail. Congratulations, nobody has to think any more than that. This reminds me of the scene in the movie Rain Man where Tom Cruise finally says "That's all right Raymond, you don't have to answer any more questions." Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:27 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: sunset at the rock house From: B Young flew from Utah to Oregon to help Larry with brakes. saw a nice sunset ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y From: Larry Cottrell "This reminds me of the scene in the movie Rain Man where Tom Cruise finally says "That's all right Raymond, you don't have to answer any more questions." Bill, does that mean we are all Savants? You certainly didn't say we were stupid,right? ROFLMAO! Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.