Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle)
2. 03:50 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Patrick Ladd)
3. 05:22 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground is it anyway!! (Herb)
4. 06:23 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (John Hauck)
5. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground is it anyway!! (John Hauck)
6. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (B Young)
7. 07:29 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (John Hauck)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Charlie England)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground is it anyway!! (James Swan)
10. 10:50 AM - Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Bill Berle)
11. 12:19 PM - Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Rex Rodebush)
12. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground is it anyway!! (John Hauck)
13. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground is it anyway!! (James Swan)
14. 02:36 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (w0odi)
15. 02:50 PM - Hinges, additional thoughts (Stuart Harner)
16. 02:57 PM - Re: Wing Swivel (Stuart Harner)
17. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (Bill Berle)
18. 03:08 PM - Re: Hinges, additional thoughts (Bill Berle)
19. 03:55 PM - Re: Wing Swivel (w0odi)
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Oh my goodness....
On Thu, 3/24/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the conclusion that if he looked
in the mirror he would see the "bully" that he was
describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet Pilot. :-/ I guess I prefer
do'ers rather than talkers. I probably spent too many years as a cop, and
my belief in my fellow man was most likely stunted. :-) I shall wait with interest,
and hope for the best.Larry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Richard,
re your first item on the list.
I had a few flights, always solo in my new Xtra. One notch flap for take off
solo and `knew` the trim position. First heavy passenger, first notch of
flap, same automatic set of trim position. Open throttle, tail up, speed
build up a little slow, no problem, plenty of room. She didn`t lift off. Bit
of back stick. Still firmly on the ground. Speed still building with me
pulling harder and harder. Just crept into the air and squeaked over the
hedge. The passenger never knew there was a problem. I adjusted the trim
next time and everything was fine but I was astounded how immovable the
stick was when I was fighting the out of position trim.
This was the first tip I passed on to the new owned when I finally sold her.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Pike
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 3:46 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
As a retired pastor, one of the things that was supposed to be in my job
description was that of being a peacemaker, and thinking about how this
thread has gone, maybe there is time to still do that. Perhaps if - instead
of focusing on the elevator hinge and associated mechanisms - which has had
no known failures within the experience of this list - we had concerned
ourselves with known problems and failures, our time might have been better
spent.
So at the risk of hijacking the thread, I am going to do just that. I will
probably not be able to remember all the Kolb things that have failed over
the years, but I will enumerate all that I can, and if some of you can
remember things that I can't, please add them in.
The forward attachment for the stabilizer: Somebody had one that did not
make any provision to slide fore and aft as the elevator went up and down,
and it bent the 2 stainless L brackets back and forth until they fractured.
The front end of the stab popped up vertical, (!!!) but the pilot was able
to maintain control and land safely.
The Firestar/Firestar II axle fitting. Originally designed for a Part 103
legal U/L, it was not changed and made it's way into heavier aircraft, where
it was extremely marginal. Kolb now sells an upgrade. If you are flying any
sort of non-103 FS/FSII - buy yourself a pair. Now.
Aileron Flutter. Kolb sells counterbalances. Get you some.
Rudder flutter. Some do, some don't. If you take your feet off the rudder
pedals and they start to pulsate, be very careful. Either never take your
feet off the rudder pedals, or make yourself a counterbalance. Something
sort of like this: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/pg6.htm
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you know.
Full flaps on the MKIII with forward CG: If you have a heavy passenger and
full flaps, you can run out of elevator authority in the flare, especially
if you are slow and carrying any power. Gap sealing the elevator to the
horizontal stab and adding VG's to the underside of the horizontal stab
helps a lot.
Before we put the 582 on FSII N582EF, Kolb expressed concern that the upper
fuselage structure was not designed for that much torque, and were concerned
that at full throttle and encountering a big thermal might cause the upper
rear spar structure to twist itself into really nasty shapes. If you are
thinking of going big, beef up that area.
Front spar collapse: John Hauck posted some really freaky pictures of what
happened to his front spar when the forward part of the ribs failed in
compression, and brought him down under silk. Make sure that your leading
edge cannot move or displace under any circumstances.
Twinstar MKII: I have seen one of them break the boom tube right at the end
of the fuselage cage because the H insert was not properly installed.
Inspect carefully.
MKIII spar bolt: A MKIII was lost w/fatality because the 1/2" bolt that goes
through the main spar into the lift strut fitting was omitted, and the
bracket was attached only by the pop rivets that held it in place prior to
bolt insertion.
Breakage of the lower vertical fin post: Racking the tail wheel around on
rough ground puts huge side loads on the lower steel post of the vertical
stabilizer, John Hauck broke his. It is wise to add braces from the lower
part of that post to the steel ring that fits into the rear of the fuselage
tube to strengthen it.
It's now 11:35, and that's all I can remember; I'm sure the rest of you guys
can add to this list. Once the list becomes comprehensive, maybe it ought to
be made into an unofficial AD Notice list and made into a sticky?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454106#454106
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at
criticism of the Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin
to a guy in a tailored suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking
into a biker bar!! Saying something such as "could I have a glass of
water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just
shown...were he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he
would have been making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of
times...was that ...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember
him looking at the Firestar 1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure
does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Patrick Ladd
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
<patrickjladd@hotmail.com>
Richard,
re your first item on the list.
I had a few flights, always solo in my new Xtra. One notch
flap for take off solo and `knew` the trim position. First
heavy passenger, first notch of flap, same automatic set of
trim position. Open throttle, tail up, speed build up a
little slow, no problem, plenty of room. She didn`t lift
off. Bit of back stick. Still firmly on the ground. Speed
still building with me pulling harder and harder. Just crept
into the air and squeaked over the hedge. The passenger
never knew there was a problem. I adjusted the trim next
time and everything was fine but I was astounded how
immovable the stick was when I was fighting the out of
position trim.
This was the first tip I passed on to the new owned when I
finally sold her.
Pat
Patrick L/Kolbers:
I discovered during the early flight hours of the newest
model MKIII a similar problem when I attempted to fly a 250+
lb passenger at Sun and Fun. During testing at the Kolb
Company in London, KY, the only passenger I flew was Dennis,
the welder, who weighs 150 lbs approximately. Flying Dennis
required a lot of aft stick to get airborne. I was a little
concerned with the heavier passenger. I briefed him prior
to take off, if we were not airborne by midfield, I'd abort
the takeoff. Midfield, stick all the way back, no fly. I
aborted.
When I built my MKIII in 1992, I knew from flying the
factory MKIII there was a lot of stress on the up elevator
cable and practically none of the down elevator cable. I
chose to go with an 1/8th inch up cable and left the down
cable at 3/32 as called for in the instructions. Flying
heavy passengers in my MKIII was never a problem. Then the
light bulb lit, and I realized the up elevator cable on the
factory MKIII was stretching and the elevator was not
responding to my input. Recommended they replace the 3/32
with 1/8 inch cable. Problem solved.
Patrick probably had 3/32 cable on his MKIII, but I don't
know for sure. Taking off with flaps drooped puts more
stress on the up elevator cable.
I adjust my elevator cables tight. To test if they are
tight enough I have someone hold the elevator while I push
and pull the stick. I don't want any play between the
elevator and the stick. Loose elevator cables make for
sloppy control feel and flying.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent
a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are
different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially
someone I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the
road for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't
know this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying
something such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that
...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you know.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When I rebuilt my mkiii I doubled the dihedral. I went from negative to
neutral roll stability... I think if I had increased a bit more that I
would have ended up with positive roll stability. Mbg,, my best guess..
Boyd
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Kolbers:
The only reason Homer put any dihedral in the Kolb wings was to prevent
the wings from looking like they were drooping when the aircraft was
sitting on the ground. He would have used zero dihedral because he
preferred getting more performance than stability.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Instability. Kolbs are unstable. You can add dihedral to a Firestar or
Firestar II and they will become stable. The MKIII will not. Don't know
about doing it to the Xtra, the Firefly or the Slingshot. Just so you
know.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When I rebuilt my mkiii I doubled the dihedral. I went from negative to
neutral roll stability... I think if I had increased a bit more that I
would have ended up with positive roll stability. Mbg,, my best
guess..
Boyd
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
On 3/25/2016 12:22 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the conclusion that
> if he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully" that he was
> describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet Pilot. :-/ I
> guess I prefer do'ers rather than talkers. I probably spent too many
> years as a cop, and my belief in my fellow man was most likely
> stunted. :-)
> I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
> Larry
Who and what are you talking about? For those of use who get individual
emails from the list, what you see above is all we see when you post a
message like this. Are you talking about one of the people that
responded to Bill Berle's questions? Because that could be any of a
number of responders.
In the context of the elevator/stabilizer discussion:
As a somewhat disinterested observer (mostly lurking here because I
would like to own a Kolb in the future), I'd have to say that most of
the responses to Bill Berle's questions have been, well, more like
watching the current presidential debates than reasoned,
scientific/engineering based answers. Most have, at least in spirit,
accused Bill of being a communist fascist atheist muslim terrorist for
even suggesting that anything Homer designed might be less than perfect.
All he really asked for is an explanation of why a particular mechanism
was designed the way it was. It should have been easy enough to simply
say something like, 'Every design is a compromise, and it was done that
way because it's strong enough to be safe, and allows a simple
implementation of another feature (like folding the tail).' Instead,
because no one seems to know the answer, the questioner was attacked for
asking a legitimate question about a design point that is apparently
outside common engineering practice.
I'd like to commend Bill for maintaining a thick skin and sticking
around after all the attacks. Most would have given up and gone
elsewhere for answers. Which, Bill, you'll probably need to do, since
all that's available here is a religious devotion to Homer and his
preaching. :-)
Charlie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent
a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are
different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially
someone I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the
road for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't
know this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying
something such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that
...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
Thank you for the kind words Charlie, pardon me for taking so long to reply but
I'm trying to pry this big black hat off my head.
I have a thick enough skin to be here, and take whatever anyone can dish out. I
can dish it out pretty well too, except that I can already tell that "respectful
but spirited debate" is not on the menu here.
Per Mr. Hauck's comment, I would have posted a bio here, but some of the people
might have seen it as boastful, and some others might have seen it as irrelevant
to the Kolb, and others surely might have seen it as "posturing" and "posing"
to substitute for actual technical ability. But since someone asked, my aviation
mini-bio is this:
Powered aircraft owned and flown:
4 Taylorcrafts (3 American, 1 British "Auster")
Piper J-3-75 Cub
Grumman AA-1-150 Yankee
Van's RV-3A
Cassutt IIM Formula One race aircraft (#81 "BooRay")
1956 "Straight Tail" Cessna 172 (current)
Powered aircraft competition results:
5th Place F-1 Silver, Reno National Championship Air Races 1988
Racing Sailplanes owned and flown:
Schempp-Hirth HS-7 Mini-Nimbus"
Schleicher AS-W20
Schleicher AS-W20BL
Schempp-Hirth Ventus B 16.6
Sailplane competition results (national level only) Contest Number "VB":
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed 15 Meter Class 1984
FAI US National Speed Record 500KM out & return speed Open Class, 1984
9th Place, US National Sports Class Soaring Championships, Minden NV 1986
FAI Soaring Achievement Badges A, B, C, Silver C, Gold C, Diamond C
First Solo 12-30-1977 (Cessna 152, KSMO)
FAA Ratings: Private Pilot Airplane, Private Pilot Glider (Aero-Tow only)
Total Hours PIC: Approx 1800
Formal Aircraft Technical Training:
2.5 Year Course Completion, Los Angeles Trade Tech College, Airframe and Powerplant
Mechanics, 1983
Federal Aviation Administration Aircraft Design / Modification Approvals:
FAA-STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) SA02246LA "EZ Flap" www.ezflaphandle.com
FAA-PMA (Parts Manufacturing Manufacturing Approval) for above STC
As for the points mentioned in several other posts on this list, I would like to
mention a few things... I chose to look for a Kolb kit in the first place because
I was impressed with many of the design choices made by Mr. Kolb, and specifically
that it had a good reputation for safety and flying qualities.
The Kolb design was upgraded and modernized several times by Mr. Kolb and the Kolb
company, complete with modifications, changes, fine-tuning, and other things.
It is clear that these changes were done for several reasons, including improved
safety, durability, higher performance, lower risk, ease of manufacturing,
and cost of manufacturing. Just like every other aircraft manufacturer from
Boeing to Grumman to Van's to RANS to Piper to Aeronca.
And every single airplane ever produced has some shortcoming or compromise that
MAY benefit from being tweaked a little. A lot of the time people's ideas are
quickly shown to not make any improvements. Occasionally there will be some improvement.
Burt Rutan's name was mentioned by myself and others. He has always
said that his success was because he was willing to try new things, and do weird
stuff to see if it worked. I may not be as smart as he is, but I'm smart
enough to watch how he thinks and dare to try something new like he did.
It's completely irrelevant to Kolb elevator hinges, but I invented a safety/performance
modification for airplanes that everyone said was not necessary ("Cessna
did it just fine, son"). The treatment that I received on the internet lists
and forums makes this place look like a luxury spa. So far, I have over 300
of these modifications sold around the world, and have maintained a 96% customer
satisfaction rate.
Among several other reasons, I came to the Kolb list with a desire to discuss ideas
and "brainstorm" with others about making a good airplane better. I never
expected there to be such a large gap between the brains and the storm :)
Charlie thanks again for standing up for me, not only for me personally but for
anyone else who may be easier to keel-haul than me.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 25, 2016, 8:17 AM
Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
On 3/25/2016 12:22 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote:
> I do hope that you are right. Personally I came to the
conclusion that
> if he looked in the mirror he would see the "bully"
that he was
> describing. I guess he reminds me a bit too much of Jet
Pilot. :-/ I
> guess I prefer do'ers rather than talkers. I probably
spent too many
> years as a cop, and my belief in my fellow man was most
likely
> stunted. :-)
> I shall wait with interest, and hope for the best.
> Larry
Who and what are you talking about? For those of use who get
individual
emails from the list, what you see above is all we see when
you post a
message like this. Are you talking about one of the people
that
responded to Bill Berle's questions? Because that could be
any of a
number of responders.
In the context of the elevator/stabilizer discussion:
As a somewhat disinterested observer (mostly lurking here
because I
would like to own a Kolb in the future), I'd have to say
that most of
the responses to Bill Berle's questions have been, well,
more like
watching the current presidential debates than reasoned,
scientific/engineering based answers. Most have, at least in
spirit,
accused Bill of being a communist fascist atheist muslim
terrorist for
even suggesting that anything Homer designed might be less
than perfect.
All he really asked for is an explanation of why a
particular mechanism
was designed the way it was. It should have been easy enough
to simply
say something like, 'Every design is a compromise, and it
was done that
way because it's strong enough to be safe, and allows a
simple
implementation of another feature (like folding the tail).'
Instead,
because no one seems to know the answer, the questioner was
attacked for
asking a legitimate question about a design point that
is apparently
outside common engineering practice.
I'd like to commend Bill for maintaining a thick skin and
sticking
around after all the attacks. Most would have given up and
gone
elsewhere for answers. Which, Bill, you'll probably need to
do, since
all that's available here is a religious devotion to Homer
and his
preaching. :-)
Charlie
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Dralle, List Admin.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and was in project, design, R & D, and
Mgt. for about 40 years. I am a firm believer in that "If its not broke don't
screw with it." If you look at a completed Kolb Mk III tail and visualize
the loads it is apparent (at least to me), that the hinges should not be a problem.
Many flight hours have proven that out.
Having said that I didn't have any problem with Bill's questions. He noticed something
that concerned him (right or wrong) and questioned it.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454141#454141
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Hi Jim S:
Long time.
Are you still flying the FS?
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Swan
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut
Knolls Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins
criticizing "our" aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying
is unsafe. It is especially annoying when the criticizer has no hands on
experience with our airplanes and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've
spent a lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the
last 32 years. I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and
fly them. We are different from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage
when someone, especially someone I do not know, begins tearing my
airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a
little note of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly,
and what I like to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed
it. I've been on the road for a few days and haven't been up to date on
my email. Right now I don't know this guy other than the fact he has a
Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's
play ground is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at
criticism of the Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin
to a guy in a tailored suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking
into a biker bar!! Saying something such as "could I have a glass of
water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just
shown...were he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he
would have been making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was
that ...he was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking
at the Firestar 1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does
vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground |
is it anyway!!
Hello John H.,
yes I am still flying the FS and enjoying it...sure a fun airplane and cheap
to operate.....at my age I have to be a bit more careful with my concentration....and
pre flight....I don't wander far from home, but visit some of the local
people I know...will soon get the F.S. out and give it a good cleaning also
need to do some service work on it.....I seem to just want to fly it and let
the work part go...also at my age I am glad that I only have a single place....I
don't think a person would have real good judgement to ride with me and yet
some still want to and I would have a hard time turning them down..I should have
kept tract of how many people I gave their lst ride in a plane.......if I
was younger I would be all for flying and a camping....the Kolb would be a fun
plane to do it with........as you well know.....
J. Swan
Eaton Rapids, Michigan
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 3:47 pm
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Hi Jim S:
Long time.
Are you still flying the FS?
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Swan
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
I was there when Homer made that statement.........
-----Original Message-----
From: John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 25, 2016 9:44 am
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
Herb/Kolbers:
I believe I remember that. It was at one of the Kolb fly ins at Chesnut Knolls
Airfield. Wasn't the VW hard mounted?
It is a little annoying when a new comer hits the List and begins criticizing "our"
aircraft, especially if they hint what we are flying is unsafe. It is especially
annoying when the criticizer has no hands on experience with our airplanes
and we don't know who he is.
As Reverend Pike suggests many times, I am an old Kolb curmudgeon. I've spent a
lot of time building and flying these little airplanes for the last 32 years.
I am very proud of our Kolbs and the people who build and fly them. We are different
from "normal" aviators. ;-) I take umbrage when someone, especially someone
I do not know, begins tearing my airplane apart.
I've been on the Kolb List for 18 years. When I got here I posted a little note
of who I was, where I was from, what I had done, what I fly, and what I like
to do. If Bill B posted his mini-bio I probably missed it. I've been on the road
for a few days and haven't been up to date on my email. Right now I don't know
this guy other than the fact he has a Kolb elevator hinge fetish.
john h
mkIII
Jasper, Tennessee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y and who's play ground
is it anyway!!
to add a bit of levity.....a new bee to this list, who hints at criticism of the
Kolb line of airplanes... normally has a life span akin to a guy in a tailored
suit and derby hat. carrying a cane and walking into a biker bar!! Saying something
such as "could I have a glass of water for me and my poodle".
Homer was a perfect gentleman...but he was not God as Bro Pike just shown...were
he not constrained by contractual obligations, I am sure he would have been
making, suggesting improvements along the way...
And the one thing I took away from meeting him a couple of times...was that ...he
was very careful not to criticize... I remember him looking at the Firestar
1 with the half vw mounted and saying " sure does vibrate" :-)
Plane less Herb....in Ky...
> -
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern over a possible future
purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I have heard nothing but good and here I
go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems fine to me but it
is those little u-joint attachments of the wings that make me nervous..the wing
attachment is as Bill called the tail a little "wonky" but far be it from me
as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know only what little i have
read and seen with my own eyes...never gave the tail much thought but the folding
wings I have had more than a passing thought about.... Now all of you guys
can give me hell and rightly so because I truly know very little about the
machine other than it has REALLY intrigued me ever since I saw my first KOLB at
Oshkosh in 1991 and I was in awe of its performance.....never saw anything that
took off like the kolb short of a helicopter.... Please guys know I am not
bad mouthing the design or the aircraft or Mr. Kolb... I just don't know enough
about the design of the wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can
sometimes lead to fear for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
> Understood, but in this case the person in question is sharp as a tack. It's
MY cognitive acuity that is suspect !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 3/21/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
> To: "Kolb list"
> Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 3:13 PM
>
>
> On Mar 21,
> 2016, at 1:55 PM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
> So I called a friend of mine who is a
> retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+ years of
> experience.
> LOL
> The cognitive acuity of anyone with
> 50+ years of experience should probably be
> suspect.Trust me, I have
> 50+ years of experience. ;)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454149#454149
Message 15
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| Subject: | Hinges, additional thoughts |
Guys,
The discussion about elevator hinges and how they are mounted got me to
thinking.
When two surfaces are held together with a bolt, you torque that bolt to
"preload" the joint. I know it took me a while to understand this and read
about it somewhere. I looked in my copy of AC 43.13 but it was not there.
Perhaps one of the Tony Bingelis books, Experimenter or Kitplanes, I just
don't remember for sure.
The rest of this is from my memory banks such as they are. And I am still
not an engineer but this is fun to think about. J
Anyway, the point is that if a bolt exerts 10 pounds of compression force to
the two plates, any load on the plates that is less than 10 pounds will not
be "seen" by the bolt. Pull on one plate with 9 pounds of force and the
other plate moves with it and the bolt is still stressed at 10 pounds. But
if you put 11 pounds of force on one of the plates the bolt now experiences
11 pounds of stress. If the bolt can't take 11 pounds, it either fails or
stretches enough to allow the plates to move because there is no more force
between them. Trouble begins when the bolt is either not torqued properly or
the forces on it exceed its limits.
For our Kolb hinges, substitute stainless steel pop rivets for bolts. The
principals of mechanical attachment of two plates still hold even if one of
the plates has a radius and one does not. As long as the forces on the joint
do not exceed the preload forces exerted by the rivets, there will be no
movement of the joint. For all practical purposes the joint acts as a solid
structure.
Now the question becomes what forces are seen by the rivet in question?
First one must determine the force exerted at the hinge pin and then
multiply by the moment arm (distance from pin center to rivet center. Then
divide by the number of rivets. I don't have the data on how much force is
applied to the hinge pin and I do not know the clamping force or limits of
the rivets.
It would take some detailed analysis of the forces to see what is at the
hinge pin and what direction they are going.
I must admit when I first saw a flat hinge riveted to a round tube I raised
an eyebrow because it is not something you usually see. My Firefly was a
quick build kit so Bryan had already installed the hinges with temporary
aluminum rivets. After installing all the rivets on final assembly and
seeing how well everything was tied together I forgot all about it.
Now, having said all of that, I think there is a way to get more strength
out of that hinge to tube joint. Put an arc into the leaves of the hinge
with a radius that matches the tube it will be connected to. This could
probably be done with some pipe and a bench vice. Once the two surfaces have
more contact area, you could then stagger the rivets into two rows. This
would have the benefit of putting the holes farther apart from each other
and out of alignment with the adjacent hole, thus distributing the stresses
into the parts more evenly. It might even look a little nicer on the
finished product. You would have to be careful to not get the rivet holes
too close to the edges of the hinge leaf. If that were a problem you could
go with a slightly larger hinge.
Another option would be to run a full length hinge from root to outer tip of
the elevator. More strength, more rivets and a built in gap seal.
Downsides of all this are more complex, more work and possibly more weight.
Overall not a bad mental exercise and a good topic for those days at the
hangar when the weather keeps you and your friends on the ground.
In practicality, since there are no known reports of failures relating to
the elevator hinges it is fairly safe to say there is no reason to change
the design.
Pre-flight inspection of all hinges on the aircraft control surfaces was one
of the first things I learned as a student pilot. Eyeball every pin and
safety device, wiggle, rotate and pull to check for tightness. I still do
this on every flight (Thank you Mr. Thomas) so if there were ever a problem
develop I am sure to catch it on the ground. Something like this should
never be discovered at an annual inspection if you are doing proper
pre-flights. So, if my Kolb ever develops a loose hinge to tube joint I
might have to consider one of the options outlined above.
In the meantime:
Build (it was a lot of fun and easy)
Fly (still learning something every flight)
Enjoy!
Just my $.02 worth offered with a $.02 instant rebate.
Stuart
Message 16
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The wing fold thing is the coolest part of a Kolb.
When you see one being folded it explains itself.
The U-joint is made of steel and is absolutely solid when the wing is pinned
into place. The build tolerances were so good on mine that the powder coat
interfered with the fit. Tight is good, loose is not. :)
If you get back to OSH stop at the Kolb booth and watch it in action. You
will be impressed.
The ability to easily and quickly fold was essential to me. I don't worry
about that part at all!
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of w0odi
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 4:36 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern over a possible
future purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I have heard nothing but good and
here I go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems fine to me but
it is those little u-joint attachments of the wings that make me
nervous..the wing attachment is as Bill called the tail a little "wonky"
but far be it from me as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know
only what little i have read and seen with my own eyes...never gave the tail
much thought but the folding wings I have had more than a passing thought
about.... Now all of you guys can give me hell and rightly so because I
truly know very little about the machine other than it has REALLY intrigued
me ever since I saw my first KOLB at Oshkosh in 1991 and I was in awe of its
performance.....never saw anything that took off like the kolb short of a
helicopter.... Please guys know I am not bad mouthing the design or the
aircraft or Mr. Kolb... I just don't know enough about the design of the
wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can sometimes lead to fear
for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Let me be the first... the wing rear hinge looks to be pretty well designed to
me. The majority of the flight loads are taken by the massive main spar, in this
case including most of the torsional loads.. The drag / anti-drag loads, and
fixing the wing angle of incidence (wing mounting angle) are the only significant
loads on the rear attach. Built per the plans it looks perfectly good for
an aircraft witth his weight/speed/load
Make no mistake, the people here who lit a fire under me (for asking a question
they didn't like) were 100% correct in saying that the fleet safety history of
the Kolb is high. My poking back at them was limited to the hinge and elevator
pivot, which once again has a very low if any failure rate.
The fact that I might want to ask a few pointed questions does not mean that the
airplane is unsafe. The problem over my questions was a technical, even academic
one. I sand by the question, but the reason things got out of hand is because
nobody was able to answer the specific "design practice" aspect of the hinge....
not that the hinge was or was not shown to be unsafe.
>From all the research I've done, I decided to go look for a Kolb FireStar and
get one. For whatever it is worth I will highly recommend the FireStar, even
before I have flown one.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, w0odi <woodyz1957@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, March 25, 2016, 2:36 PM
"w0odi" <woodyz1957@gmail.com>
Kolb List..... I am a lurker that is in a holding pattern
over a possible future purchase of a Kolb Firestar II.... I
have heard nothing but good and here I go.....
I am going to open up another can of worms....the tail seems
fine to me but it is those little u-joint attachments of the
wings that make me nervous..the wing attachment is as Bill
called the tail a little "wonky" but far be it from me
as I am a current quicksilver sport 2s owner and know only
what little i have read and seen with my own eyes...never
gave the tail much thought but the folding wings I have had
more than a passing thought about.... Now all of you guys
can give me hell and rightly so because I truly know very
little about the machine other than it has REALLY intrigued
me ever since I saw my first KOLB at Oshkosh in 1991 and I
was in awe of its performance.....never saw anything that
took off like the kolb short of a helicopter.... Please guys
know I am not bad mouthing the design or the aircraft or Mr.
Kolb... I just don't know enough about the design of the
wing folding mechanism/attachment and the unknown can
sometimes lead to fear for no reason...
Thanks
Larry
victorbravo(at)sbcglobal. wrote:
> Understood, but in this case the person in question is
sharp as a tack. It's MY cognitive acuity that is suspect !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning
proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 3/21/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y
> To: "Kolb list"
> Date: Monday, March 21, 2016, 3:13 PM
>
>
> On Mar 21,
> 2016, at 1:55 PM, Bill Berle
> wrote:
> So I called a friend of mine who is a
> retired aerospace structural engineer, with 50+
years of
> experience.
> LOL
> The cognitive acuity of anyone with
> 50+ years of experience should probably be
> suspect.Trust me, I have
> 50+ years of experience. ;)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454149#454149
Lists This Month --
Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
Raiser. Click on
more about
Gifts provided
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Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Hinges, additional thoughts |
THAT is precisely the type of discussion and communication that I was looking for
when all of this started. THAT is the two-way exchange of information which
should be encouraged on all type-specific forums. THAT is what should prevail
over ruffled feathers and bruised egos.
Bravo.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 3/25/16, Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net> wrote:
Guys, The discussion about elevator hinges and how they are mounted got me to
thinking. When two surfaces are held
together with a bolt, you torque that bolt to preload the joint. I know it took
me a while
to understand this and read about it somewhere. I looked in
my copy of AC 43.13 but it was not there. Perhaps one of the
Tony Bingelis books, Experimenter or Kitplanes, I just
dont remember for sure. The rest of this is from my
memory banks such as they are. And I am still not an
engineer but this is fun to think about. J Anyway, the point is that if
a bolt exerts 10 pounds of compression force to the two
plates, any load on the plates that is less than 10 pounds
will not be seen by the bolt. Pull on one
plate with 9 pounds of force and the other plate moves with
it and the bolt is still stressed at 10 pounds. But if you
put 11 pounds of force on one of the plates the bolt now
experiences 11 pounds of stress. If the bolt cant
take 11 pounds, it either fails or stretches enough to allow
the plates to move because there is no more force between
them. Trouble begins when the bolt is either not torqued
properly or the forces on it exceed its limits. For our Kolb hinges,
substitute stainless steel pop rivets for bolts. The
principals of mechanical attachment of two plates still hold
even if one of the plates has a radius and one does not. As
long as the forces on the joint do not exceed the preload
forces exerted by the rivets, there will be no movement of
the joint. For all practical purposes the joint acts as a
solid structure.
Now the question
becomes what forces are seen by the rivet in question? First one must determine
the
force exerted at the hinge pin and then multiply by the
moment arm (distance from pin center to rivet center. Then
divide by the number of rivets. I dont have the data
on how much force is applied to the hinge pin and I do not
know the clamping force or limits of the rivets. It would take some detailed
analysis of the forces to see what is at the hinge pin and
what direction they are going. I must admit when I first saw
a flat hinge riveted to a round tube I raised an eyebrow
because it is not something you usually see. My Firefly was
a quick build kit so Bryan had already installed the hinges
with temporary aluminum rivets. After installing all the
rivets on final assembly and seeing how well everything was
tied together I forgot all about it. Now, having said all of that,
I think there is a way to get more strength out of that
hinge to tube joint. Put an arc into the leaves of the hinge
with a radius that matches the tube it will be connected to.
This could probably be done with some pipe and a bench vice.
Once the two surfaces have more contact area, you could then
stagger the rivets into two rows. This would have the
benefit of putting the holes farther apart from each other
and out of alignment with the adjacent hole, thus
distributing the stresses into the parts more evenly. It
might even look a little nicer on the finished product. You
would have to be careful to not get the rivet holes too
close to the edges of the hinge leaf. If that were a problem
you could go with a slightly larger hinge. Another option would be to
run a full length hinge from root to outer tip of the
elevator. More strength, more rivets and a built in gap
seal. Downsides of all this are
more complex, more work and possibly more weight. Overall not a bad mental
exercise and a good topic for those days at the hangar when
the weather keeps you and your friends on the ground. In practicality, since there
are no known reports of failures relating to the elevator
hinges it is fairly safe to say there is no reason to change
the design.
Pre-flight
inspection of all hinges on the aircraft control surfaces
was one of the first things I learned as a student pilot.
Eyeball every pin and safety device, wiggle, rotate and pull
to check for tightness. I still do this on every
flight (Thank you Mr. Thomas) so if there were ever a
problem develop I am sure to catch it on the ground.
Something like this should never be discovered at an annual
inspection if you are doing proper pre-flights. So, if my
Kolb ever develops a loose hinge to tube joint I might have
to consider one of the options outlined above. In the meantime:Build (it was
a lot of fun
and easy)Fly (still
learning something every flight)Enjoy! Just my $.02 worth
offered with a $.02 instant rebate. Stuart
Message 19
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|
Thanks Stuart...... I would love to go to Oshkosh again....... but not sure my
legs and back could take all that walking and they won't let me bring my atv...lol
Maybe the rules have changed since I was there... :)
I have seen one kolb up close and personal since Oshkosh 91 and that was last April
and it was an immaculate machine...This was prior to my purchase of my Sport
2 S.... It was like a brand new machine had maybe 150 hours and is 2006 he
demoed the Firestar II and it looked like it ran and flew great I was just a
little concerned about the attachment....just being a worry wart I guess...
At the time I was thinkingI needed a 2 place but now I am wondering if that was
a good ideaI have lots of folks wanting rides yet I am not ready since i have
so little time in the machine..... I would feel like I am really responsible
if I were to take someone for a ride... let alone my own well being.. But that
is off topic. I feel better after hearing from you about the attachment..
I am seriously thinking about selling the sport and getting a Firestar... The record
speaks for the brand.... not that there is anything wrong with the Quicksilver
just have a desire for the Kolb and a single seat..
.. thanks for letting me comment on this subject and thanks to anyone else who
answers...
Larry
stuart(at)harnerfarm.net wrote:
> The wing fold thing is the coolest part of a Kolb.
>
> When you see one being folded it explains itself.
>
> The U-joint is made of steel and is absolutely solid when the wing is pinned
> into place. The build tolerances were so good on mine that the powder coat
> interfered with the fit. Tight is good, loose is not. :)
>
> If you get back to OSH stop at the Kolb booth and watch it in action. You
> will be impressed.
>
> The ability to easily and quickly fold was essential to me. I don't worry
> about that part at all!
>
> Stuart
>
> --
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454155#454155
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