Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:19 AM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Bill Berle)
2. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Herb)
3. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Herb)
4. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Rick Neilsen)
5. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Herb)
6. 12:16 PM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Bill Berle)
7. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography (Herb)
8. 05:13 PM - VGs ()
9. 05:59 PM - Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction ()
10. 06:22 PM - Re: Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction (Herb)
11. 07:50 PM - Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y (R. Hankins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com> wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the
tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because
YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the
tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out
the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He said
"Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual configuration
too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this mean the
tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be because
YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the designer of the
tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I pointed out
the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such a ruckus. He
said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an unusual
configuration too."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
> messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
> reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does
>> this mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>>
>> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't
>> be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because
>> the designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an
>> engineering degree.
>>
>> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>>
>> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I
>> pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started
>> such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of
>> questions about an unusual configuration too."
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>> for-profit entities
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
Herb
Are you trying to stir things up?
You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You need
explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some
incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in
his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of
Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this
issue.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
>>
>> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting the
>> messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>>
>> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible aileron
>> reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>>
>> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical engineering, Does this
>>> mean the tail is going to fall off my Kolb?
>>> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>>>
>>> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it wouldn't be
>>> because YOU didn't have an engineering degree. It would be because the
>>> designer of the tail or hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>>>
>>> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge itself.
>>>
>>> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans today, and I
>>> pointed out the parts that I asked questions about, and which started such
>>> a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I would want to have asked a couple of questions
>>> about an unusual configuration too."
>>>
>>> Bill Berle
>>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
>>> for-profit entities
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and
> turn left.
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
Just a question Rick?
I wonder how our little planes respond to aileron inputs beyond a 60
deg bank? it comes to mind because the ailerons are stiff and sit on a
long torque tube... and the rear tube and ribs are all that support the
aileron beyond the drag strut lift strut attach point...
I recall Wayne Ison saying that 60 degree banks was the max
recommended for their planes.. Apparently not enough aileron or rudder
to get out of the bank beyond some angle... Herb (who me??)
On 03/27/2016 11:11 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote:
> Herb
>
> Are you trying to stir things up?
>
> You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge. You dropped a bomb. You
> need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some
> incredible aerobatics with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2
> g in his attempt to determine the absolute limits of our planes. I'm
> aware of Geebees that have had aileron reversal, never heard of a Kolb
> having this issue.
>
> Rick Neilsen
> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
>
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com
> <mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com>> wrote:
>
> <mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com>>
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g turns...Herb
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
> <mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com>>
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
> the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and possible
> aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to ask....Herb
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net <mailto:victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>>
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com
> <mailto:west1m@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
> engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
> my Kolb?
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
> wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering degree.
> It would be because the designer of the tail or hinge
> mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
> itself.
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
> today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
> about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah, I
> would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
> unusual configuration too."
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com <http://www.ezflaphandle.com> -
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net <http://www.grantstar.net> -
> winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
>
> --
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red
> light and turn left.
>
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
-----------------
The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue
before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that
exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing
whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL
Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up" and
bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet discussion
forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the
more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their
definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing trouble.
Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as to
whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed
as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator
and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone of
Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie or
mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other
for fun, then that is different.
Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant
issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went
"Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design...
as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the
reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight,
if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE NEAR
the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit"
of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way beyond
60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed for
a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate
load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA
"standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level
of strength for any experimental as well.
Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly
higher "Utility Category" design loads.
I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered
or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety
level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with...
the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either address
the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it to
others with more knowledge to answer the question.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible aerobatics
with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
MKIIIC
On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
wrote:
Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
turns...Herb
On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
I have always had a question about wing twist and
possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
ask....Herb
On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
my Kolb?
Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
itself.
A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
unusual configuration too."
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third
red light and turn left.
==========
br>
fts!)
r>
>
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Questions, Modifications, Biography |
I have always been curious about the behavior of our birds...when
maneuvering beyond a 2 g turn....Never seen any sort of hand book or
specs about that area of the flight envelope....
I note to you, Bill, that the kolbs have had counter balances added
to the ailerons some years ago...also that some of the models..have had
the aileron torque tube inboard actuation moved to the middle of the
aileron itself...
Other light planes with inboard aileron actuation over long torque
tubes need counter balancing against flutter..
since Kolbs are not neutrally stable, what happens in a high bank
angle . What brings it back to level flight at inadvertent near or at
redline speeds? Especially when altitude is not your friend?? Herb
On 03/27/2016 02:13 PM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible
aerobatics
> with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> -----------------
>
> The captain of the Titanic "never heard of the Titanic having an iceberg issue
before" either. Just because something never happened before doesn't mean that
exploring the possibility, or wanting to understand the design better, or discussing
whether it's a significant risk... is "stirring up" trouble.
>
> Rick's post brings up an important question of mine: Please define the OFFICIAL
Matronics/Kolb list policy on the difference between "stirring things up"
and bringing up a potential technical/engineering discussion.
>
> Speaking as someone with 20+ years of experience on aviation related internet
discussion forums, I am 100% certain that it would be very appropriate for the
more experienced members here, as well as the list moderator(s) to publish their
definition of the distinction between constructive discussion and causing
trouble.
>
> Then, once we can review that official definition, it should be very clear as
to whether Herb's post, or my previous posts, or anyone else's... should be viewed
as problematic. This posting is an official request for the list moderator
and/or list owner to provide such a definition.
>
> Unless Herb and Rick are buddies, and Rick is just pulling his leg, the tone
of Rick's response is a little ominous. Definitely not displaying camaraderie
or mutual respect to my ears. If they are friends and just poking at each other
for fun, then that is different.
>
> Another thing in Rick's post raised some concern for me on a more directly design-relevant
issue. Unless I'm reading it wrong, he's saying that someone went
"Way beyond 2G" in an attempt to determine the absolute limits of the design...
as if "beyond 2G" is pretty far out there toward the absolute limit. But the
reality is that 2G is what you get with a 60 degree banked turn in level flight,
if I'm remembering my basic flight training 40 years ago. 2G is NOWHERE
NEAR the ultimate load on any legitimate aircraft design.
>
> Saying that "beyond 2G" was a significant attempt to explore the "absolute limit"
of an airplane is like saying that "The Ford Mustang test driver went way
beyond 60 miles an hour to explore the absolute limit of the tires".
>
> At a bare minimum, the Kolb or any non-aerobatic airplane should be designed
for a 3.8G maximum "design load", with a 50% safety margin, yielding a 5.7G "ultimate
load" (absolute limits) before anything actually breaks. This is the FAA
"standard category" load, which also represents an appropriate minimum level
of strength for any experimental as well.
>
> Most airplanes, including a large number of experimentals, are built to slightly
higher "Utility Category" design loads.
>
> I had previously been under the impression that the Kolb was indeed engineered
or tested to at least thee 3.8 +50% level.
>
> FAR more importantly, if Herb brought up a question about something on a safety
level... whether he is correct or incorrect about what he was concerned with...
the more experienced and/or qualified members of this list should either
address the question without trying to intimidate him, or they should leave it
to others with more knowledge to answer the question.
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 3/27/16, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Herb Are you trying to stir things up? You have a question, hearsay, or knowledge.
You dropped a bomb. You need explain more. Your in now.
>
> One of the Kolb employees (an engineer by the way) used to do some incredible
aerobatics
> with the Kolb airplanes. Even went way beyond 2 g in his attempt to determine
the absolute limits of our planes. I'm aware of Geebees that have had aileron
reversal, never heard of a Kolb having this issue.
> Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered
> MKIIIC
> On Sun, Mar 27, 2016
> at 11:04 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
> wrote:
> Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
>
>
>
> to clarify...wing flex, aileron reversal beyond 2 g
> turns...Herb
>
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 09:40 AM, Herb wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> In this Feminine democracy that we have sunk into...shooting
> the messenger has become an olympic sport...!!
>
>
>
> I have always had a question about wing twist and
> possible aileron reversal...but have been hesitant to
> ask....Herb
>
>
>
> On 03/27/2016 01:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 3/26/16, west1m <west1m@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Aw Darn, I don't have a degree in aeronautical
> engineering, Does this mean the tail is going to fall off
> my Kolb?
>
> Awful lot of BS over a hinge...
>
>
>
> If by some chance the tail ever did fall off of a Kolb, it
> wouldn't be because YOU didn't have an engineering
> degree. It would be because the designer of the tail or
> hinge mechanism didn't have an engineering degree.
>
>
>
> The BS was over asking an unwanted question, not the hinge
> itself.
>
>
>
> A degreed mechanical engineer looked at the Kolb plans
> today, and I pointed out the parts that I asked questions
> about, and which started such a ruckus. He said "Yeah,
> I would want to have asked a couple of questions about an
> unusual configuration too."
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third
> red light and turn left.
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
>
> br>
> fts!)
>
> r>
> >
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
Message 8
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Just read my Kolb List mail from the last 3 or 4 days. Wish I had been able to
read and reply to several of the posts, but am on the road in the mountains of
Tennessee and have little or no internet access. When I do have access I am
can receive, but not transmit email. ;-( I have written a lot of replies and
eventually deleted them because trying to transmit was screwing up my system
and my day.
I have decided to install VGs on my MKIII. Experience I gained from flying Larry
Cottrell's FS powered by a strong, reliable HKS engine, has convinced me I
can make better landings with them. They will also reduce my stall and landing
speeds, and that should be fun to play with. At 77, I don't fly nor land as
well as I did 10 or 20 years ago. The VGs should take the edge off some of those
"sharp" touch downs. The funny thing is, I grease the MKIII in on grass,
and usually break a tad high and drop it in on pavement. I don't like flying
off pavement. Maybe I have a psychological hang up. ;-)
Never had anything against VGs, did not dislike them, just did not need them on
my MKIII until now. I was also afraid I would lose cruise speed on my long cross
country flights, and I didn't need that. Now I understand they probable
will not affect airspeed.
Right now I am using web mail, which is a pain in the butt, but it will get this
email out and maybe a couple more before my fingers get too cold to type. I'm
sitting on a mountain near Oliver Springs, TN, on the front porch of the camp
ground office. The best I can do for the moment.
Got to get back home next week and install a new WARP Drive prop that should be
there when I return. I've flown WARP Drive props for 23 years, and all but two
cross country flights with them pushing my MKIII. I am experimenting with
a 68" 3 blade. Previous WARPs were 70, 72, and 71 (current). I think I can get
as good performance out of the 68" and reduce some of the noise produced by
the prop tips as they zip by the tail boom, which in turn amplifies the noise.
We'll see when I test it next week. Noise is the major fatigue factor of flying
my airplane cross country. In the early days I flew 8 to 10 hour flight
days, but now my average day is 6 flight hours. By then I am bushed. If I can
get a little quieter, I'll be a safer more comfortable pilot.
john h
mkIII
Oliver Springs, TN
Message 9
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| Subject: | Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction |
I'm getting cold and it is getting dark. So if I don't make a lot of sense and
make a lot of typos, please forgive. When I get home to my computer, I'll try
to do a better job.
The early Ultrastars had a wing twist problem. When activating those big barn
door full span ailerons, the wing would twist in the opposite direction and cancel
out the input. That was because the the main spar wing attachment was two
small 4130 tubes attached inside the spar, top and bottom. Not a good idea.
This US wing had the same problem the B-47 had, as related to me by a B-47 pilot,
Dave Thomas RIP after relating to him my experience with my first homebuilt,
the early US. The wing universal joint was on the front. Soon a modification
was made to eliminate this problem, the 4130 collar and the universal was
moved to the rear attach point. No more twist.
The ailerons will not reverse control on a Kolb. The Kit Fox and its predecessor
(CRS) had that potential problem if the aileron control linkage was not adjusted
correctly. My buddy, Junk Yard Chuck Shaunesy, put one in the pine trees
upside down when this happened to him.
You can literally put a Kolb on its wing tip in a very tight turn. Looks like
the wing tip is stuck on one spot on the ground. Not 90 degrees, but very close
to it. I have demonstrated this maneuver many times in my MKIII and the factory
FS at the Kolb Homecomings and many other places over the years. When
you want to level out, right stick and it rolls back level.
Kolb ailerons and elevators are hanging on their hinges by their leading edges.
About as unbalanced as I am. I experienced aileron flutter on my US, FS, and
MKIII. In the MKIII anything over 80 mph and it was prone to flutter. Homer
Kolb and the rest of the Kolb crew did not believe me when I told them all my
Kolbs experienced flutter. I designed counterbalance weights for the MKIII when
I built it. Early on in testing it fluttered. My counterbalance weights
were actually aggravating the problem. I flew down to Sun and Fun, 1993, to fly
the factory MKIII. Dick Rahill was flying the factory FS as usual. He had
been over to South Lakeland screwing off and had to stay until after the air
show. A typical Lakeland thunderstorm was brewing and the wind was starting to
kick ass when Dick departed South Lakeland. He was flying wide open, about
half way back, hit some severe turbulence, and the FS went into severe flutter.
Definitely got Dick's attention. He was white as a sheet when he landed.
Within a week or two I had a set of FS counterbalance weights for my MKIII. They
were not quite heavy enough, but I figured out how to make them work. Never
had a hint of flutter since then. Kolb Company finally figured out we had
a flutter problem and reacted very quickly. If your Kolb does not have aileron
counter balance weights, it should have. I flew a lot of Kolbs that did not
flutter. Never had a elevator flutter, but have had rudder flutter on FS and
MKIII. My fix for the MKIII was double up on rudder pedal springs. It works.
I can fly with my feet on the deck.
Dennis Souder and Homer decided to test the Ultrastar by flying rather than static
load test. The US was equipped with an accelerometer (G Meter) and a Jim
Handbury, hand deployed parachute. Dennis' test consisted of diving for airspeed
and pulling out to load the wings. BTW all Kolbs are rated at 4 Gs + and
-. Several tests to 4 Gs was completed satisfactorily. Dennis decided to do
a final test a little (lot) faster with an abrupt pull out. I can not remember
the numbers, but when he snatched the stick back the left drag strut failed
by bending out of column. Dennis tossed the parachute and recovered himself and
the US. They immediately designed a drag strut brace that solved the problem.
The reason the newer model MKIII has a near center mounted aileron horn is the
use of a Morse Control Cable, rather than the normal push/pull tube configuration
on the older Kolbs.
I am sure there is some twist in the inboard aileron horn mounted front spar, but
it is negligible.
Lack of aft stick with heavy loads is caused by the use of 3/32 up elevator cables.
When I built my MKIII 25 years ago, I installed 1/8" up and 3/32 down cables.
I don't have that problem. I think Kolb went to 1/8" up elevator cables
after the first year we had the new yellow MKIII at Lakeland. I had to abort
a takeoff with a rather hefty passenger when I ran out of aft stick. I had
an idea it was going to do this and informed my passenger prior to takeoff, if
I was not flying by midfield, I would abort. The light bulb went off, I put
two and two together. Bryan put 1/8" up elevator cable on the MKIII and solved
problem.
About all I can think of now. Got to go tend my frost bit fingers.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Twist, Aileron Reversal, Testing to Destruction |
Everything I wanted to hear...thanks Heaps... with my memory you have
likely said most of it before...Good to hear...Herb
On 03/27/2016 07:58 PM, jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote:
>
> I'm getting cold and it is getting dark. So if I don't make a lot of sense and
make a lot of typos, please forgive. When I get home to my computer, I'll
try to do a better job.
>
> The early Ultrastars had a wing twist problem. When activating those big barn
door full span ailerons, the wing would twist in the opposite direction and
cancel out the input. That was because the the main spar wing attachment was
two small 4130 tubes attached inside the spar, top and bottom. Not a good idea.
This US wing had the same problem the B-47 had, as related to me by a B-47
pilot, Dave Thomas RIP after relating to him my experience with my first homebuilt,
the early US. The wing universal joint was on the front. Soon a modification
was made to eliminate this problem, the 4130 collar and the universal
was moved to the rear attach point. No more twist.
>
> The ailerons will not reverse control on a Kolb. The Kit Fox and its predecessor
(CRS) had that potential problem if the aileron control linkage was not adjusted
correctly. My buddy, Junk Yard Chuck Shaunesy, put one in the pine trees
upside down when this happened to him.
>
> You can literally put a Kolb on its wing tip in a very tight turn. Looks like
the wing tip is stuck on one spot on the ground. Not 90 degrees, but very
close to it. I have demonstrated this maneuver many times in my MKIII and the
factory FS at the Kolb Homecomings and many other places over the years. When
you want to level out, right stick and it rolls back level.
>
> Kolb ailerons and elevators are hanging on their hinges by their leading edges.
About as unbalanced as I am. I experienced aileron flutter on my US, FS, and
MKIII. In the MKIII anything over 80 mph and it was prone to flutter. Homer
Kolb and the rest of the Kolb crew did not believe me when I told them all
my Kolbs experienced flutter. I designed counterbalance weights for the MKIII
when I built it. Early on in testing it fluttered. My counterbalance weights
were actually aggravating the problem. I flew down to Sun and Fun, 1993, to
fly the factory MKIII. Dick Rahill was flying the factory FS as usual. He had
been over to South Lakeland screwing off and had to stay until after the air
show. A typical Lakeland thunderstorm was brewing and the wind was starting
to kick ass when Dick departed South Lakeland. He was flying wide open, about
half way back, hit some severe turbulence, and the FS went into severe flutter.
Definitely got Dick's attention. He was white as!
> a sheet when he landed. Within a week or two I had a set of FS counterbalance
weights for my MKIII. They were not quite heavy enough, but I figured out
how to make them work. Never had a hint of flutter since then. Kolb Company
finally figured out we had a flutter problem and reacted very quickly. If your
Kolb does not have aileron counter balance weights, it should have. I flew
a lot of Kolbs that did not flutter. Never had a elevator flutter, but have
had rudder flutter on FS and MKIII. My fix for the MKIII was double up on rudder
pedal springs. It works. I can fly with my feet on the deck.
>
> Dennis Souder and Homer decided to test the Ultrastar by flying rather than static
load test. The US was equipped with an accelerometer (G Meter) and a Jim
Handbury, hand deployed parachute. Dennis' test consisted of diving for airspeed
and pulling out to load the wings. BTW all Kolbs are rated at 4 Gs + and
-. Several tests to 4 Gs was completed satisfactorily. Dennis decided to do
a final test a little (lot) faster with an abrupt pull out. I can not remember
the numbers, but when he snatched the stick back the left drag strut failed
by bending out of column. Dennis tossed the parachute and recovered himself
and the US. They immediately designed a drag strut brace that solved the problem.
>
> The reason the newer model MKIII has a near center mounted aileron horn is the
use of a Morse Control Cable, rather than the normal push/pull tube configuration
on the older Kolbs.
>
> I am sure there is some twist in the inboard aileron horn mounted front spar,
but it is negligible.
>
> Lack of aft stick with heavy loads is caused by the use of 3/32 up elevator cables.
When I built my MKIII 25 years ago, I installed 1/8" up and 3/32 down
cables. I don't have that problem. I think Kolb went to 1/8" up elevator cables
after the first year we had the new yellow MKIII at Lakeland. I had to abort
a takeoff with a rather hefty passenger when I ran out of aft stick. I had
an idea it was going to do this and informed my passenger prior to takeoff,
if I was not flying by midfield, I would abort. The light bulb went off, I put
two and two together. Bryan put 1/8" up elevator cable on the MKIII and solved
problem.
>
> About all I can think of now. Got to go tend my frost bit fingers.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
--
Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn
left.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator/Stabilizer hinge ass'y |
Larry,
Legitimate question, not a can of worms at all. Here is my experience with the
wing fold mechanism.
I remade my left wing fold attach fitting a few years back to change the angle
of incidence in the left wing. This allowed me to trim out a slight roll tendency
at high power settings without an ugly trim tab. Knowing the consequences
of a poorly made part here, I cut out five sets of parts. I welded one up
and then destroyed it. Changed my welding technique a bit, made another and
smashed and pried until it failed. The fourth one is on my airplane. You would
be amazed how difficult it was to break even the first one with shallow welds.
It took no end of prying, bending the ears in a vise and smashing with a
4 lb hammer to get it to break.
I beveled the edges on the rest of the parts to get better penetration on the welds.
The second took a good half hour of work to destroy, but I finally got
one of the weld joints to start to split. I made one more adjustment and built
the third. I mangled it badly but could not get the welds to fail. I wish
I had taken a picture of how badly I smashed, bent and chewed on that fitting.
It was seeing the fitting take that kind of abuse that gave me the confidence
to put the fourth one on my airplane.
That is a long way of saying, don't worry about the folding mechanism. It is a
strong and elegant design.
--------
Roger in Oregon
1992 KXP 503 - N1782C
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454250#454250
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