---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/05/16: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:18 AM - Sun and Fun 2016 (John Hauck) 2. 09:02 AM - Re: Sun and Fun 2016 (Dave Kulp) 3. 12:46 PM - Re: Short Field Landings (w0odi) 4. 01:57 PM - flap usage (kirk bellard) 5. 02:16 PM - Re: flap usage (Dennis Rowe) 6. 03:17 PM - Re: flap usage (Richard Girard) 7. 03:39 PM - Re: flap usage (Malcolm Brubaker) 8. 04:09 PM - Re: flap usage (B Young) 9. 04:24 PM - Re: flap usage (Bill Berle) 10. 06:53 PM - Please "unsubscribe me" (Larry Lukehart) 11. 07:00 PM - Re: Please "unsubscribe me" (Matt Dralle) 12. 07:07 PM - Re: Please "unsubscribe me" (Charlie England) 13. 08:36 PM - Re: flap usage (Stuart Harner) 14. 08:40 PM - Looking for 62" ish 3 blade prop (turbot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:05 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Sun and Fun 2016 Kolbers: Despite the lack of enthusiasm for Sun and Fun this year, I hope to see a bunch of you all down there. One year, early on, we had 15 or 20 Kolb folks go out to eat dinner with us and Homer Kolb was there. Those were the good old days. A lot of those good folks are no longer with us. Heading out the door now to drive the 3 miles to Gantt International Airport, then 420 sm to Lakeland. Should take 5 hours or less at 80 mph air speed. Calling for a tail wind all the way today. Wind is north at 9 here and north at 6 at Lakeland. I think it will be about the same all the way down. Take care, john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sun and Fun 2016 From: Dave Kulp Have a nice flight, John. Dave Kulp Do not archive On 4/5/2016 11:18 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > Kolbers: > > Despite the lack of enthusiasm for Sun and Fun this year, I hope to > see a bunch of you all down there. One year, early on, we had 15 or > 20 Kolb folks go out to eat dinner with us and Homer Kolb was there. > Those were the good old days. A lot of those good folks are no longer > with us. > > Heading out the door now to drive the 3 miles to Gantt International > Airport, then 420 sm to Lakeland. Should take 5 hours or less at 80 > mph air speed. Calling for a tail wind all the way today. Wind is > north at 9 here and north at 6 at Lakeland. I think it will be about > the same all the way down. > > Take care, > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Short Field Landings From: "w0odi" I thought it was an excellent video.. Thanks for sharing.. :) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454583#454583 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:29 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: flap usage From: "kirk bellard" New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:16:23 PM PST US From: Dennis Rowe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage I never use flaps on take off. I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends. I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs. I may be wrong. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk3, Rotax 670 > On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard wrote: > > > New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow, is my speed indicator off > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:43 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage From: Richard Girard Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe wrote: > > I never use flaps on take off. > I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends. > I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs. > I may be wrong. > > Dennis "Skid" Rowe > Mk3, Rotax 670 > > > > On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard wrote: > > > > > > New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. I s > there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have stall > speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's seems slow , > is my speed indicator off > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:41 PM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage John just made it here at sun fun the flying is great tonight=C2- Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 6:17 PM, Richard Girard wrote : Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full thro ttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forward a b it then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard take off technique. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe wrot e: I never use flaps on take off. I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends. I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs. I may be wrong. Dennis "Skid" Rowe Mk3, Rotax 670 > On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard wrote: > > > New mark iiic owner,=C2- I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees. =C2- Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I ha ve stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's see ms slow, is my speed indicator off > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585 > > br>fts!) r>>w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbo oks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Naviga tor?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D =C2-=C2-Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage From: B Young Dennis I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did multiple tradeoffs with no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full 40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost identical results. clean I accelerated quicker, full flaps I took off slower, but it took longer to accelerate. 20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent shorter. I have modified my flap handle, but have not been able to test yet. in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up and down about 5 deg in each direction. the locked position is around 15 deg. and I can pull the handle to about 25 deg without removing the handle from the center notch. with more testing I'll pass on my results. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:23 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" technique used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable difference. B Young is correct in saying the airplane accelerates faster with no flaps, but it takes off at the slowest speed with flaps. So what gives you the best of both worlds is to accelerate on the ground at the fastest speed with no flaps,and upon reaching the minimum takeoff speed (with flaps) you "pop" the flaps quickly from zero to the half or full deployment position. I am not intimately familiar with the flap control on the Kolbs (my Firestar plans do not show flaps). But ASSUMING that the flap control is able to be operated by the pilot without distraction, the technique should work well. The Piper Tri-Pacer pilot operating handbook indicates that using this technique will reduce takeoff roll by 20-25%. The Kolb might do better than that because flap deployment creates air flow disturbance around the prop, so it MIGHT have an even larger effect. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/5/16, B Young wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2016, 4:09 PM Dennis I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did multiple tradeoffs with no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full 40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost identical results. clean I accelerated quicker, full flaps I took off slower, but it took longer to accelerate. 20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent shorter. I have modified my flap handle, but have not been able to test yet. in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up and down about 5 deg in each direction. the locked position is around 15 deg. and I can pull the handle to about 25 deg without removing the handle from the center notch. with more testing I'll pass on my results. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:47 PM PST US From: "Larry Lukehart" Subject: Kolb-List: Please "unsubscribe me" Thanks Larry L. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:57 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Please "unsubscribe me" At 06:53 PM 4/5/2016 Tuesday, you wrote: >Thanks > >Larry L. Done. Matt Matt G Dralle | Matronics | 581 Jeannie Way | Livermore | CA | 94550 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Please "unsubscribe me" From: Charlie England SGkgTWF0dCwKCkp1c3Qgd2FudGVkIHRvIHRlbGwgeW91IGhvdyBncmVhdCBpdCBpcyB0byBoYXZl IHlvdSBiYWNrIGluIHRoZSBzYWRkbGUuCgpXZWxjb21lIGJhY2shCgpDaGFybGllCgo8ZGl2Pi0t LS0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIG1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0tLS08L2Rpdj48ZGl2PkZyb206IE1hdHQgRHJh bGxlIDxkcmFsbGVAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4gPC9kaXY+PGRpdj5EYXRlOjA0LzA1LzIwMTYgIDk6 NTYgUE0gIChHTVQtMDU6MDApIDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+VG86IGtvbGItbGlzdEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29t IDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IEtvbGItTGlzdDogUGxlYXNlICJ1bnN1YnNjcmliZSBt ZSIgPC9kaXY+PGRpdj4KPC9kaXY+LS0+IEtvbGItTGlzdCBtZXNzYWdlIHBvc3RlZCBieTogTWF0 dCBEcmFsbGUgPGRyYWxsZUBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tPgoKQXQgMDY6NTMgUE0gNC81LzIwMTYgVHVl c2RheSwgeW91IHdyb3RlOgo+VGhhbmtzCj4gCj5MYXJyeSBMLgoKCkRvbmUuCgpNYXR0CgoKCgoK TWF0dCBHIERyYWxsZSB8IE1hdHJvbmljcyB8IDU4MSBKZWFubmllIFdheSB8IExpdmVybW9yZSB8 IENBIHwgOTQ1NTAKOTI1LTYwNi0xMDAxIFYgfCA5MjUtNjA2LTYyODEgRiB8IGRyYWxsZUBtYXRy b25pY3MuY29tIEVtYWlsCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS8gV1dXIHwgRmVhdHVyaW5n IFByb2R1Y3RzIEZvciBBaXJjcmFmdAoKCgpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQpfLT0KXy09ICAgICAgIC0tIFBsZWFzZSBT dXBwb3J0IFlvdXIgTGlzdHMgVGhpcyBNb250aCAtLQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgIChBbmQgR2V0IFNv bWUgQVdFU09NRSBGUkVFIEdpZnRzISkKXy09Cl8tPSAgIE5vdmVtYmVyIGlzIHRoZSBBbm51YWwg TGlzdCBGdW5kIFJhaXNlci4gIENsaWNrIG9uCl8tPSAgIHRoZSBDb250cmlidXRpb24gbGluayBi ZWxvdyB0byBmaW5kIG91dCBtb3JlIGFib3V0Cl8tPSAgIHRoaXMgeWVhcidzIFRlcnJpZmljIEZy ZWUgSW5jZW50aXZlIEdpZnRzIHByb3ZpZGVkCl8tPSAgIGJ5OgpfLT0gICAKXy09ICAgICAqIFRo ZSBCdWlsZGVyJ3MgQm9va3N0b3JlIHd3dy5idWlsZGVyc2Jvb2tzLmNvbQpfLT0KXy09ICAgTGlz dCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2ViIFNpdGU6Cl8tPQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25p Y3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbgpfLT0KXy09ICAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGdlbmVyb3Vz IHN1cHBvcnQhCl8tPQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFs bGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uCl8tPQpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgLSBUaGUgS29sYi1MaXN0IEVt YWlsIEZvcnVtIC0KXy09IFVzZSB0aGUgTWF0cm9uaWNzIExpc3QgRmVhdHVyZXMgTmF2aWdhdG9y IHRvIGJyb3dzZQpfLT0gdGhlIG1hbnkgTGlzdCB1dGlsaXRpZXMgc3VjaCBhcyBMaXN0IFVuL1N1 YnNjcmlwdGlvbiwKXy09IEFyY2hpdmUgU2VhcmNoICYgRG93bmxvYWQsIDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZSwg Q2hhdCwgRkFRLApfLT0gUGhvdG9zaGFyZSwgYW5kIG11Y2ggbXVjaCBtb3JlOgpfLT0KXy09ICAg LS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9OYXZpZ2F0b3I/S29sYi1MaXN0Cl8tPQpfLT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtIE1BVFJPTklDUyBXRUIgRk9SVU1TIC0KXy09IFNhbWUgZ3Jl YXQgY29udGVudCBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSB2aWEgdGhlIFdlYiBGb3J1bXMhCl8tPQpfLT0gICAt LT4gaHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tCl8tPQpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAg LSBMaXN0IENvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBXZWIgU2l0ZSAtCl8tPSAgVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciB5b3VyIGdl bmVyb3VzIHN1cHBvcnQhCl8tPSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC1NYXR0IERy YWxsZSwgTGlzdCBBZG1pbi4KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9jb250 cmlidXRpb24KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KCgoK ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:53 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: flap usage I used to do that in my old '63 Cherokee 180. Full throttle, 60MPH grab the "Johnson Bar" and yank in two notches of flaps with the right hand while hauling back on the yoke with the left. The old girl would leap 40 or 50 feet into the air. Shove the nose over to maintain airspeed while slowly retracting the flaps and pulling the nose up at 65MPH indicated. Great technique for short and/or soft fields. I need way more takeoffs in the Firefly before I start trying different things. No flap takeoffs are about 400'. I bet that can be reduced significantly with practice and the right technique. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" technique used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable difference. B Young is correct in saying the airplane accelerates faster with no flaps, but it takes off at the slowest speed with flaps. So what gives you the best of both worlds is to accelerate on the ground at the fastest speed with no flaps,and upon reaching the minimum takeoff speed (with flaps) you "pop" the flaps quickly from zero to the half or full deployment position. I am not intimately familiar with the flap control on the Kolbs (my Firestar plans do not show flaps). But ASSUMING that the flap control is able to be operated by the pilot without distraction, the technique should work well. The Piper Tri-Pacer pilot operating handbook indicates that using this technique will reduce takeoff roll by 20-25%. The Kolb might do better than that because flap deployment creates air flow disturbance around the prop, so it MIGHT have an even larger effect. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 4/5/16, B Young wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2016, 4:09 PM Dennis I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did multiple tradeoffs with no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full 40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost identical results. clean I accelerated quicker, full flaps I took off slower, but it took longer to accelerate. 20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 percent shorter. I have modified my flap handle, but have not been able to test yet. in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up and down about 5 deg in each direction. the locked position is around 15 deg. and I can pull the handle to about 25 deg without removing the handle from the center notch. with more testing I'll pass on my results. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Looking for 62" ish 3 blade prop From: "turbot" Good day all Anyone have a 3 blade 62" ish diameter propeller they want to sell ? Need it for a pusher rotax 582. Let me know if you have one collecting dust Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454597#454597 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.