Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:21 AM - Re: flap usage (Patrick Ladd)
2. 02:52 AM - Re: flap usage (Patrick Ladd)
3. 03:03 AM - Re: Sun and Fun 2016 (Patrick Ladd)
4. 12:43 PM - Re: flap usage (kirk bellard)
5. 12:55 PM - Re: flap usage (Rick Neilsen)
Message 1
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<<The old girl would leap 40 or 50 feet into the air.>>
Ernest K Gann in one of his books describes this technique. i can`t remember
what he was flying but something quite big. It was in India and by mistake
the plane was topped up with fuel instead of the reduced amount he had asked
for. He just about took off but couldn`t climb because of the extra weight
and he found himself heading straight for the Taj Mahal and too low to bank
much. I remember that he said he was close enough to the Taj Mahal that he
could see men who were working on the temple at the time jumping off the
scaffolding. He pulled the trick of lowering his flaps and bumping the plane
enough to clear the building.
To anyone not familiar with Ganns books. Look them up.Great stuff. `Fate is
the Hunter` is one I remember and one I believe was made into a film. (Burt
Lancaster?)
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Harner
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 4:32 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: flap usage
I used to do that in my old '63 Cherokee 180. Full throttle, 60MPH grab the
"Johnson Bar" and yank in two notches of flaps with the right hand while
hauling back on the yoke with the left. The old girl would leap 40 or 50
feet into the air. Shove the nose over to maintain airspeed while slowly
retracting the flaps and pulling the nose up at 65MPH indicated.
Great technique for short and/or soft fields.
I need way more takeoffs in the Firefly before I start trying different
things. No flap takeoffs are about 400'. I bet that can be reduced
significantly with practice and the right technique.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Anyone interested in maximum STOL takeoff should try out the "pop" technique
used in larger STOL type aircraft. This would likely make a noticeable
difference.
B Young is correct in saying the airplane accelerates faster with no flaps,
but it takes off at the slowest speed with flaps.
So what gives you the best of both worlds is to accelerate on the ground at
the fastest speed with no flaps,and upon reaching the minimum takeoff speed
(with flaps) you "pop" the flaps quickly from zero to the half or full
deployment position.
I am not intimately familiar with the flap control on the Kolbs (my Firestar
plans do not show flaps). But ASSUMING that the flap control is able to be
operated by the pilot without distraction, the technique should work well.
The Piper Tri-Pacer pilot operating handbook indicates that using this
technique will reduce takeoff roll by 20-25%. The Kolb might do better than
that because flap deployment creates air flow disturbance around the prop,
so it MIGHT have an even larger effect.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 4/5/16, B Young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Dennis
I did a lot of testing with my Maliki. I did multiple tradeoffs with
no flaps, 20 deg flaps, and full
40 deg flaps. no flaps and 40 deg flaps gave me almost identical
results. clean I accelerated quicker, full flaps I took off slower, but
it took longer to accelerate.
20 deg flaps gave me the shortest takeoff. in the neighborhood of 15 to
20 percent shorter. I have modified my flap handle, but have not been able
to test yet. in the 20 deg position I cut the notch both up and down about
5 deg in each direction. the locked position is around 15 deg. and I
can pull the handle to about 25 deg without removing the handle from the
center notch. with more testing I'll pass on my results.
Boyd Young
Message 2
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For what its worth I always used one notch of flap on my Xtra and took
it off at 5/600 ft . Lowering flaps one notch doesn`t slow the plane
worth a damn.. No need to retrim when the flap comes off, you can easily
hold the speed steady with the stick. At 500ft you should still be on
the look out for a landing spot if the engine stops not fiddling with
unimportant things in the cockpit. I usually climbed out in a long curve
which would put my strip under the wing as I turned downwind. That made
it easy to put the nose down and get back to the strip if everything
went quiet. I would retrim after throttling back to cruise speed at
around 1200 feet by which time I was back overhead my strip with a known
spot for starting any navigational calculations. All the while keeping
a weather eye open for C 130 s doing drops at a field about 2 miles from
my strip. Happy days.
Pat
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off.
You don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full
throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose
will rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick
forward a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new
standard take off technique.
Rick Girard
On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny@windstream.net>
wrote:
<rowedenny@windstream.net>
I never use flaps on take off.
I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
I may be wrong.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
Mk3, Rotax 670
> On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <k.bellard@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees.
Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have
stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's
seems slow, is my speed indicator off
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Sun and Fun 2016 |
Happy flying John.
Pat
From: John Hauck
Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 4:18 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Sun and Fun 2016
Kolbers:
Despite the lack of enthusiasm for Sun and Fun this year, I hope to see
a bunch of you all down there. One year, early on, we had 15 or 20 Kolb
folks go out to eat dinner with us and Homer Kolb was there. Those were
the good old days. A lot of those good folks are no longer with us.
Heading out the door now to drive the 3 miles to Gantt International
Airport, then 420 sm to Lakeland. Should take 5 hours or less at 80 mph
air speed. Calling for a tail wind all the way today. Wind is north at
9 here and north at 6 at Lakeland. I think it will be about the same
all the way down.
Take care,
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 4
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i appreciate the help fellas
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454630#454630
Message 5
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Dennis
Good to listen to people that have flown a Kolb with flaps. Kolbs are very
light air planes which means they speed up and slow down much more quickly
than a Cessna or Piper.
I always use one notch of flaps on take off and landing. I used to pull one
notch of flaps at the same time rotate for takeoff, then retract for climb
out. Lately I just set one notch before takeoff and then retract for climb
out. I found that my plane accelerates so quick and takes off at such a low
speed that any reduced drag from having the flaps up is not measurable. My
plane has the spring steel gear legs a bit longer than the original
aluminum but not as long as the new tubular steel legs. With that
configuration the flaps give me a higher effective angle of attack to get
off the ground more quickly. I have never really measured the climb out
with and without flaps. Using full flaps will only extend the takeoff.
For landing I alway use one notch of flaps because I like the lower landing
speed and reduced float after the flair. One notch also puts you at about
the same pitch trim as you had with power. I have found that one notch of
flaps with some power produces a landing approach just about the same as a
dead engine and no flaps. I also found that with no flaps I could get the
tail down first. This worked out real well when I had a forced landing in a
bean field. The tail acted like it was catching the arresting wire on a
aircraft carrier. Yes use the flaps in a forced landing to get to the best
landing spot then retract them. I had a GA instructor jump all over me once
when I told him I retraced my flaps just before landing when I had a forced
landing. He used words like, never never reduce flaps on approach. Hey it
works well in a Kolb.
One more thing, get out there and practice with idle power extending flaps
and pitching forward to keep your airspeed the same. Do this several times
to full flaps and back keeping your airspeed pegged on one speed while
watching the landing point change. Later if you have a forced landing you
will have plenty of control with the flaps to get yourself down to a safe
landing spot. So when it gets real quiet pick a spot well within gliding
range. Set up for landing a bit long and dial in flaps, don't lock them in
a notch, moving them up and down as necessary. If you have to land in
something soft and/or deep it might just help to get the tail down first.
Flaps tend to pitch you forward so you can't get the tail down first as
easy.
As always worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 5:51 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> For what its worth I always used one notch of flap on my Xtra and took it
> off at 5/600 ft . Lowering flaps one notch doesn`t slow the plane worth
a
> damn.. No need to retrim when the flap comes off, you can easily hold the
> speed steady with the stick. At 500ft you should still be on the look out
> for a landing spot if the engine stops not fiddling with unimportant thin
gs
> in the cockpit. I usually climbed out in a long curve which would put my
> strip under the wing as I turned downwind. That made it easy to put the
> nose down and get back to the strip if everything went quiet. I would
> retrim after throttling back to cruise speed at around 1200 feet by which
> time I was back overhead my strip with a known spot for starting any
> navigational calculations. All the while keeping a weather eye open for C
> 130 s doing drops at a field about 2 miles from my strip. Happy days.
>
> Pat
>
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 5, 2016 11:17 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: flap usage
>
> Dennis, One notch of flaps is what I call the Kolb automatic take off. Yo
u
> don't move the stick at all, just hold it neutral and feed in full
> throttle. The Mk III takes off from three in about 200 feet. The nose wil
l
> rise when you pull off the flaps so you will have to move the stick forwa
rd
> a bit then. Give it a try. Bet you a quarter it becomes your new standard
> take off technique.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny@windstream.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I never use flaps on take off.
>> I fly from a 600' field but do not have trees at the ends.
>> I feel the flaps add too much drag for take offs.
>> I may be wrong.
>>
>> Dennis "Skid" Rowe
>> Mk3, Rotax 670
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 5, 2016, at 4:57 PM, kirk bellard <k.bellard@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > New mark iiic owner, I have a 1700 ft grass strip with 60 ft trees.
>> Is there a recommended altitude when flaps should be taken out. I have
>> stall speed of 30 MPH with flaps with take off weight at 750; that's see
ms
>> slow, is my speed indicator off
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454585#454585
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> www.buildersbooks.com
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho Marx
> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
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