---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/13/16: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:33 AM - Re: Fourstar (Patrick Ladd) 2. 06:20 AM - Re: Firestar tail boom length... (racerjerry) 3. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Firestar tail boom length... (John Hauck) 4. 07:58 AM - Re: 447 Head bolt torque... (Russ Kinne) 5. 09:59 AM - Re: 447 Head bolt torque... (Richard Girard) 6. 10:23 AM - Re: video (KelleyT) 7. 10:29 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Richard Girard) 8. 10:46 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (John Hauck) 9. 11:19 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Richard Girard) 10. 11:28 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Bill Berle) 11. 11:42 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (John Hauck) 12. 11:56 AM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Bill Berle) 13. 11:56 AM - Re: Corrosion Prevention/drain holes (Stuart Harner) 14. 01:16 PM - Re: Corrosion Prevention/drain holes (John Hauck) 15. 01:29 PM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Charlie England) 16. 01:40 PM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Charlie England) 17. 01:49 PM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Charlie England) 18. 01:56 PM - Re: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention (Bill Berle) 19. 02:28 PM - Drain hole 'dancer' (Charlie England) 20. 02:37 PM - alodine process (Charlie England) 21. 02:43 PM - Re: 447 Head bolt torque... (Herb) 22. 06:37 PM - Re: 447 Head bolt torque... (Greg Taylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:01 AM PST US From: Patrick Ladd Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fourstar What a gruesome looking beast. Pat -----Original Message----- From: Herb Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 7:50 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Fourstar Wondering how many have seen this...? Called the Fourstar...one of a kind...Bill Bronson of the St. Louis area designed and built it using Firestar parts... I have enough parts to build it...and the less than 2 gal an hour consumption of my Global engine is desirable... With my memory...may have sent this before...?? Herb ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:17 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar tail boom length... From: "racerjerry" As you say, the stock boom on the Firestar II is 13 feet long as per the plans. When I built my own Firestar II, I wanted a bit more lively performance, so I clipped the wing tips and shortened the tail boom tube to 12 feet. Prior to doing so, I ran my plan past Dennis; who confessed that his Firestar demonstrator airplane was also shortened one foot. 1.5 feet? I wouldn't worry about it! Just do your W&B with extra care and make sure your CG falls within the acceptable range and not TOO nose heavy when loaded with YOU in the airplane. BYW, If there are any defects in your boom tube, install the problem area toward the AFT end, as all the stress is up front where the tube joins the fuselage structure. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454945#454945 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:42 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar tail boom length... 1.5 feet? I wouldn't worry about it! Just do your W&B with extra care and make sure your CG falls within the acceptable range and not TOO nose heavy when loaded with YOU in the airplane. -------- Jerry King Jerry K/Kolbers: I shortened the tail boom of my MKIII 1 foot initially. The airplane never wanted to settle down in cruise. Was like trying to fly on a ball. Get it on top for a few seconds, then it would fall off in no predetermined direction. Fortunately, or unfortunately, a CGS wooden prop came apart, think a dual K&N air filter went through it, destroying the shortened tail boom. I replaced it with a standard length boom. Problem solved. My idea was... by shortening the tail boom I could get a better three point stance and STOL performance. It didn't work. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 447 Head bolt torque... From: Russ Kinne Greg, why the mini-sermon?? Thats not KOLB-related! > On Apr 12, 2016, at 9:04 PM, Herb wrote: > > > Already in trouble with the list Gods...forgot to change the subject line...!! > > Now...to show how forgetful I am...got an email from the guy who bought my Firefly... > > I told him to be sure to re torque the cyl head nuts/studs.... I think the correct torque is 195 inch lbs. or 17 ft lbs...that correct? > > They do loosen up ! considerably... > > I think I also told him that I would change the cooling fan belt...since we have an unknown with it... Herb > > On 04/12/2016 07:30 PM, Herb wrote: >> >> A lot of the guys on the list know each other, either from flyins or cross country stints...so the List Gods tend to tollerate small transgressions from time to time.... >> >> the general attitude is one of a bit of tolerance and the list Gods generally say..."go forth and sin no more"! :-) Herb >> >> On 04/12/2016 06:01 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >>> >>> >>> "Greg Taylor" >>> Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's Grace that we are Saved. >>> ----------------- >>> >>> What's this have to do with Kolbs? >>> >>> Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too? >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 447 Head bolt torque... From: Richard Girard Herb, Have your buddy download the Rotax Two Stroke Illustrated Parts Catalog (IPC). Go to Chapter 10 Torques and he'll find ever screw, bolt, stud, and nut with its part no. and chapter where it can be found, size and thread, and everything else you need to know to properly button up a 447, 503, or 582. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Herb wrote: > > Already in trouble with the list Gods...forgot to change the subject > line...!! > > Now...to show how forgetful I am...got an email from the guy who bought > my Firefly... > > I told him to be sure to re torque the cyl head nuts/studs.... I think > the correct torque is 195 inch lbs. or 17 ft lbs...that correct? > > They do loosen up ! considerably... > > I think I also told him that I would change the cooling fan > belt...since we have an unknown with it... Herb > > On 04/12/2016 07:30 PM, Herb wrote: > >> >> A lot of the guys on the list know each other, either from flyins or >> cross country stints...so the List Gods tend to tollerate small >> transgressions from time to time.... >> >> the general attitude is one of a bit of tolerance and the list Gods >> generally say..."go forth and sin no more"! :-) Herb >> >> On 04/12/2016 06:01 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> "Greg Taylor" >>> Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's >>> Grace that we are Saved. >>> ----------------- >>> >>> What's this have to do with Kolbs? >>> >>> Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and > turn left. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:23:04 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: video From: "KelleyT" Beautiful video and beautiful country. I am envious. Larry, if you don't mind my asking, what part of the country did you spend your RR welder days on? T K Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454955#454955 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:29:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention From: Richard Girard Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends. One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends. Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides). Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100. So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do > not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose > engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surface s. > > Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on > alclad aluminum tubing. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, > fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second on e. > Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical > conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum > tails? > > Bill Berle > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:46:50 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Rick G/Kolbers: Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for me. One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engine. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends. One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends. Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides). Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100. So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails? Bill Berle br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:19 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention From: Richard Girard John, This is a PBI (partially baked idea). I have used it on an LED porch light and it has been holding the mud daubbers at bay for two years now. I just haven't tried it in this manner. When you do your drain grommets, however your method, make the hole, then cover it with small piece of fiberglass screen and place a patch, with hole, over the top to hold the screen insert. You'll have to take some care to keep the screen from filling up with Poly Tone or whatever your final coat is but at least the wasps won't be in your wings or tail feathers. Wish I could do this to keep the little buggers out of my trike wing. Also, don't forget if you leave the locator hole on your prop hub open they'll get in there, too. Rick On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:44 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Rick G/Kolbers: > > > Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at > its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on > previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. > > > Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil > soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for > me. > > > One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them > can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I > pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. > > > I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engin e. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard Girard > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention > > > Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the > Poly Fiber book recommends. > > One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine > or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book > recommends. > > Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and se e > how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spru ce > sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot > until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square fee t > (both sides). > > Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted tha t > you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He > bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled > water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) bu t > he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the > other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of > premix for $100. > > So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater > price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor an d > avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. > > > Rick Girard > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > > Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do > not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose > engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surface s. > > Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on > alclad aluminum tubing. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, > fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second on e. > Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical > conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum > tails? > > Bill Berle > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > ========== > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:19 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Has anyone tried small pieces of window screen to cover the drain holes? Regular back door window screen could be cut into little patches and glued over the hole in the fabric at the drain location. Seems to me like it would keep the mud daubers out, let the moisture drain out, and allow air circulation. But we don't have those little critters here as bad as they do in the south so it's not something we have to deal with here as much. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/13/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 10:44 AM #yiv3134528233 #yiv3134528233 -- _filtered #yiv3134528233 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3134528233 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3134528233 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3134528233 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;} #yiv3134528233 #yiv3134528233 p.yiv3134528233MsoNormal, #yiv3134528233 li.yiv3134528233MsoNormal, #yiv3134528233 div.yiv3134528233MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv3134528233 h1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:24.0pt;} #yiv3134528233 a:link, #yiv3134528233 span.yiv3134528233MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3134528233 a:visited, #yiv3134528233 span.yiv3134528233MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv3134528233 span.yiv3134528233Heading1Char {color:#365F91;font-weight:bold;} #yiv3134528233 span.yiv3134528233EmailStyle18 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv3134528233 .yiv3134528233MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv3134528233 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv3134528233 div.yiv3134528233WordSection1 {} #yiv3134528233 Rick G/Kolbers: Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for me. One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engine. john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends.One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends.Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides).Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100.So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails? Bill Berle ========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:38 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention The crush plate and spinner keep bugs out of the centering hole. Open holes in the back of the prop flange get a little dab of silicone seal, because the mud daubers homesteaded there. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention John, This is a PBI (partially baked idea). I have used it on an LED porch light and it has been holding the mud daubbers at bay for two years now. I just haven't tried it in this manner. When you do your drain grommets, however your method, make the hole, then cover it with small piece of fiberglass screen and place a patch, with hole, over the top to hold the screen insert. You'll have to take some care to keep the screen from filling up with Poly Tone or whatever your final coat is but at least the wasps won't be in your wings or tail feathers. Wish I could do this to keep the little buggers out of my trike wing. Also, don't forget if you leave the locator hole on your prop hub open they'll get in there, too. Rick On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:44 PM, John Hauck wrote: Rick G/Kolbers: Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for me. One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engine. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends. One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends. Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides). Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100. So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails? Bill Berle br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:06 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Just saw Richard's post similar to my idea... great minds think alike I guess :) You would not need to install the screen during the covering process and spend all the effort to prevent it from getting filled up with Poly-Brush etc. Make a 3/4" round patch with a 1/2" hole in the center. Make the patch out of thin ABS plastic, same as some seaplane grommets. You can probably find pre-cut plastic washers or shims somewhere that are the right size. Cut small circles of window screen that are just UNDER 3/4" diameter. Glue the screen over this hole. You can even paint them now if you know the color of the airplane. Set the patches aside until the airplane is all covered. Then cut the hole with the soldering iron or knife or whatever. Then glue the patches on using Poly-Tak with the screen sandwiched between the patch and the fabric. It will take a couple of hours to make up a dozen of the drain patches, but it will prevent the little critters from damaging your aircraft. Speaking of mud daubers, they LOVE to get into your pitot tube and leave you with no airspeed indication. This is easy to solve, get a short piece of rubber tubing that slips over your pitot tube, and wrap a little piece of window screen material over one end of the rubber, then Ty-Rap (zip-tie) the screen onto the tube. Also make sure you capture a little orange or red streamer, ribbon, etc. with the zip tie as a "remove before flight" warning. Apply some glue (RTV, Shoe-Goo) to stick it all down around the rubber tube,m leaving the screen on the tip of the rubber to allow the pitot tube to "breathe" so your airspeed indicator does not get damaged by moisture or pressure. After the glue dries trim off the excess screen, and you have a safe way to prevent bugs and muyd from getting into the pitot. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/13/16, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 11:17 AM John, This is a PBI (partially baked idea). I have used it on an LED porch light and it has been holding the mud daubbers at bay for two years now. I just haven't tried it in this manner.When you do your drain grommets, however your method, make the hole, then cover it with small piece of fiberglass screen and place a patch, with hole, over the top to hold the screen insert. You'll have to take some care to keep the screen from filling up with Poly Tone or whatever your final coat is but at least the wasps won't be in your wings or tail feathers.Wish I could do this to keep the little buggers out of my trike wing.Also, don't forget if you leave the locator hole on your prop hub open they'll get in there, too. Rick On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:44 PM, John Hauck wrote: Rick G/Kolbers:Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt.Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for me.One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty.I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engine.john hmkIIITitus, AlabamaFrom: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion PreventionAlodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends.One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends.Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides).Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100.So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping.Rick GirardOn Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck "John Hauck" Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails? Bill Berle ========== br> fts!) r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:07 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Corrosion Prevention/drain holes John, Interesting about mud daubers. We have them in ND but not too much of a problem. Occasionally find a nest or two in a dark corner of a garage or barn. Maybe because it has been too dry to make mud the last few years. J Sometimes leaf cutter bees can be a problem but again is fairly rare around here. Mice are much more of a threat to all airplanes (and everything else you value). Once a rabbit ate all the ignition wires and some of the wire harness in various places on a company van, but that is another story Drain holes. Usually I would agree that they need to be installed and have followed the plans/FAR=99s on other aircraft I have done. However, for my Firefly I chose to leave them off. At least for now. I did put two holes in the lower outside corners of the fuselage bottom fabric. I used the patch and melt method, quick and easy. In my case the wings and tail surfaces are completely sealed up. The only moisture that can get in would be whatever water vapor could migrate through the fabric and then condense out with temperature changes. That will change as soon as I cut out the inspection holes for the wings. Some (but not all) inspection covers have small vents cut in them that should be sufficient to take care of natural condensation. But other than when I am flying, Serenity sits in a hangar with the wings and tail folded. Having holes at the trailing edge sure won=99t help in that situation. The good side is that small patches and holes are very easy to install in the future because of the Poly Fiber products. Did you put drain holes in the tail and control surfaces? From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:44 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Rick G/Kolbers: Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for me. One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engine. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:56 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Corrosion Prevention/drain holes I put drain holes in everything that could collect water. Each rib bay in wings, ailerons, flaps, horizontal stabilizers, elevators, upper and lower vertical stabilizers, and rudder. In my earlier years of flying cross country I experienced considerable rain in flight and while tied down outside. Down here in the SE the humidity is high and some mornings, like a couple recent ones at Lakeland, the MKIII was drenched with dew, inside and out. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 1:54 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Corrosion Prevention/drain holes John, Interesting about mud daubers. We have them in ND but not too much of a problem. Occasionally find a nest or two in a dark corner of a garage or barn. Maybe because it has been too dry to make mud the last few years. J Sometimes leaf cutter bees can be a problem but again is fairly rare around here. Mice are much more of a threat to all airplanes (and everything else you value). Once a rabbit ate all the ignition wires and some of the wire harness in various places on a company van, but that is another story Drain holes. Usually I would agree that they need to be installed and have followed the plans/FAR=99s on other aircraft I have done. However, for my Firefly I chose to leave them off. At least for now. I did put two holes in the lower outside corners of the fuselage bottom fabric. I used the patch and melt method, quick and easy. In my case the wings and tail surfaces are completely sealed up. The only moisture that can get in would be whatever water vapor could migrate through the fabric and then condense out with temperature changes. That will change as soon as I cut out the inspection holes for the wings. Some (but not all) inspection covers have small vents cut in them that should be sufficient to take care of natural condensation. But other than when I am flying, Serenity sits in a hangar with the wings and tail folded. Having holes at the trailing edge sure won=99t help in that situation. The good side is that small patches and holes are very easy to install in the future because of the Poly Fiber products. Did you put drain holes in the tail and control surfaces? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:44 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention From: Charlie England Just to avoid any confusion, alumiprep is needed, but it ain't alodine. Alumiprep is the acid etch used *after* cleaning off all the oils/contaminates, and prior to the alodine process. Alumiprep strips off the oxide layer that's on all untreated aluminum, so the alodine can work on the alloy itself. Small parts can be dipped in the alumiprep, meaning it can be re-used multiple times before it loses its effectiveness. Same applies to alodine, but don't use it outdoors or where sunlight can hit it; sunlight (UV?) degrades it fairly quickly. Good tip on the powder. Even the powder triggers hazmat fees even though it's non-toxic when dry, but still *much* cheaper if you mix yourself. Ask for Iridite powder if you can buy local. Best tip I ever heard was to mix a large batch in a plastic drum or even a black plastic garbage can, if you can seal it up when not in use. If kept away from light, it will remain active for a long time, and timed 'dipping' is a lot easier & more effective than trying to flow it, or mop it on with sponges or rags. Toughest thing to do with large surfaces is keep the entire surface wet (with either chemical) until the 'exposure time' has run and you rinse it off with clean water. One trick is to build a trough with plastic sheet suspended behind/above it, so runoff goes in the trough for re-use. A cheap fountain pump from Harbor Freight rigged to recycle fluid from the trough might last long enough to do the big stuff. Don't forget, both are highly toxic, so use carefully. Full strength alumiprep will eat your concrete floor (I can testify). Alumiprep is a Chromate product, and Chromates are banned in a lot of states due to toxicity. No reason to be terrified of them, but you do need to respect them (eye protection, good gloves, etc). Charlie On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Richard Girard wrote: > Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the > Poly Fiber book recommends. > One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine > or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book > recommends. > Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see > how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce > sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot > until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet > (both sides). > Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that > you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He > bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled > water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but > he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the > other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of > premix for $100. > So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater > price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and > avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. > > Rick Girard > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: > >> >> Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do >> not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose >> engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. >> >> Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on >> alclad aluminum tubing. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, >> fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. >> Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical >> conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum >> tails? >> >> Bill Berle >> > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention From: Charlie England Never tried this with fabric, but a common trick in aluminum skin drain holes is to bend up a piece of stainless safety wire so it has a bit of a T shape or horizontal spiral on top, and enough of a zigzag or horizontal spiral on the bottom to keep it from going up through the hole. Vibration while flying makes it 'dance' a bit in the hole. This keeps any dirt/grit from clogging the hole, and will keep insects out, as well. Similar trick, except an inverted J shape, can be used in fuel vents, etc. Minimum airflow blockage, but breaks up the hole enough that mud daubers aren't interested. The crook at the bottom (top) is cut/bent to work like a fish hook when inserted into the tubing. Or just drill through the tubing twice at right angles and cross the opening with an X of safety wire. Obviously, this won't be as effective if you're using 3/8" or larger tubing, without some extra effort. I've used 'proseal' (fuel tank sealant) to 'glue' small sections of aluminum window screen over the -4 A/N fittings (fuel tank vents) on my RV-4 & the -7 I'm building. Charlie On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:42 PM, John Hauck wrote: > The crush plate and spinner keep bugs out of the centering hole. Open > holes in the back of the prop flange get a little dab of silicone seal, > because the mud daubers homesteaded there. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard Girard > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 1:17 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention > > > John, This is a PBI (partially baked idea). I have used it on an LED porc h > light and it has been holding the mud daubbers at bay for two years now. I > just haven't tried it in this manner. > > When you do your drain grommets, however your method, make the hole, then > cover it with small piece of fiberglass screen and place a patch, with > hole, over the top to hold the screen insert. You'll have to take some ca re > to keep the screen from filling up with Poly Tone or whatever your final > coat is but at least the wasps won't be in your wings or tail feathers. > > Wish I could do this to keep the little buggers out of my trike wing. > > Also, don't forget if you leave the locator hole on your prop hub open > they'll get in there, too. > > > Rick > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:44 PM, John Hauck wrote : > > Rick G/Kolbers: > > > Anything on my MKIII that could possible hold water gets a drain hole at > its lowest point when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on > previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in the butt. > > > Instead of drain grommets I use 50 cent sized patches and a pencil > soldering iron. I make a 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for > me. > > > One drawback down here in the sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them > can get inside the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when I > pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. They are nasty. > > > I have to constantly keep a look out for their nest in places on my engin e. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Richard Girard > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention > > > Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the > Poly Fiber book recommends. > > One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine > or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book > recommends. > > Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and se e > how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spru ce > sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot > until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square fee t > (both sides). > > Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted tha t > you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He > bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled > water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) bu t > he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the > other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of > premix for $100. > > So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater > price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor an d > avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. > > > Rick Girard > > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > > Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do > not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose > engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surface s. > > Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on > alclad aluminum tubing. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, > fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second on e. > Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical > conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum > tails? > > Bill Berle > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n > ========== > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention From: Charlie England Dirt might not be an issue in an elevator or even a wing, but I can testify that dirt will clog even an open 1/8" hole in the bottom of a fuselage. I once drained ~5 gallons of water from the tailcone of the Luscombe I was learning to fly in. And that was *after* I'd taken off, flown a few T&Gs, & discovered that I had to hold forward stick to flair for landing. (Water was moving aft, over the bulkheads, after each takeoff. Dirt will likely clog screen very quickly, unless you operate and store the plane in a dust free environment. On my RV-4, I use one of the relatively inexpensive 'flapper' style pitot covers. Weight closes it when at rest, and dynamic air pressure opens it automatically when I start the takeoff roll. I always forget, and it never matters. :-) Charlie On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Just saw Richard's post similar to my idea... great minds think alike I > guess :) > > You would not need to install the screen during the covering process and > spend all the effort to prevent it from getting filled up with Poly-Brush > etc. > > Make a 3/4" round patch with a 1/2" hole in the center. Make the patch ou t > of thin ABS plastic, same as some seaplane grommets. You can probably fin d > pre-cut plastic washers or shims somewhere that are the right size. Cut > small circles of window screen that are just UNDER 3/4" diameter. Glue th e > screen over this hole. You can even paint them now if you know the color of > the airplane. Set the patches aside until the airplane is all covered. Th en > cut the hole with the soldering iron or knife or whatever. Then glue the > patches on using Poly-Tak with the screen sandwiched between the patch an d > the fabric. > > It will take a couple of hours to make up a dozen of the drain patches, > but it will prevent the little critters from damaging your aircraft. > > Speaking of mud daubers, they LOVE to get into your pitot tube and leave > you with no airspeed indication. This is easy to solve, get a short piece > of rubber tubing that slips over your pitot tube, and wrap a little piece > of window screen material over one end of the rubber, then Ty-Rap (zip-ti e) > the screen onto the tube. Also make sure you capture a little orange or r ed > streamer, ribbon, etc. with the zip tie as a "remove before flight" > warning. Apply some glue (RTV, Shoe-Goo) to stick it all down around the > rubber tube,m leaving the screen on the tip of the rubber to allow the > pitot tube to "breathe" so your airspeed indicator does not get damaged b y > moisture or pressure. After the glue dries trim off the excess screen, an d > you have a safe way to prevent bugs and muyd from getting into the pitot. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 4/13/16, Richard Girard wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 11:17 AM > > John, This > is a PBI (partially baked idea). I have used it on an LED > porch light and it has been holding the mud daubbers at bay > for two years now. I just haven't tried it in this > manner.When you do your drain grommets, however your > method, make the hole, then cover it with small piece of > fiberglass screen and place a patch, with hole, over the top > to hold the screen insert. You'll have to take some care > to keep the screen from filling up with Poly Tone or > whatever your final coat is but at least the wasps won't > be in your wings or tail feathers.Wish I could do > this to keep the little buggers out of my trike > wing.Also, don't forget if you leave the > locator hole on your prop hub open they'll get in there, > too. > Rick > On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at > 12:44 PM, John Hauck > wrote: > Rick > G/Kolbers: Anything on my MKIII that could > possible hold water gets a drain hole at its lowest point > when in its 3 point stance. I tried drain grommets on > previous Kolb models, but they turned out to be a pain in > the butt. Instead of drain grommets I use 50 > cent sized patches and a pencil soldering iron. I make a > 3/16" drain hole approximately. Works well for > me. One drawback down here in the > sunny south is mud daubers. Some of them can get inside > the drain holes to build mud nest. I discovered that when > I pulled fabric to repair wing and aileron 15 years ago. > They are nasty. I have to constantly keep a look > out for their nest in places on my > engine. john hmkIIITitus, > Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Richard Girard > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 12:29 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight > 2005/Alodine/Corrosion > Prevention Alodine works better if its > used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber > book recommends.One sure way to get your Kolb > wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; > don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly > Fiber book recommends.Tip on Alodine. It > doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see > how many square feet it will convert and protect. The > Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of > coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider > that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet > (both sides). Years ago a fellow in EAA > Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're > paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed > alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and > bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum > purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough > to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the > other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even > get a gallon of premix for > $100. So, buy the gallon for $42 > and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or > better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor > and avoid the hazardous materials fees for > shipping. Rick > Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 > AM, John Hauck > "John Hauck" > > Only thing I Alodine on my > MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint > them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with > lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore > between the two surfaces. > > Haven't found it necessary to use a > corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit > Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able > to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have > a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical > conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on > the aluminum tails? > > Bill > Berle > > > ========== > br> > fts!) > r> > w.buildersbooks.com" > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > -List" > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for > they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho > Marx > > > -- > > =9CBlessed are > the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho > Marx > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:00 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention Good advice Charlie! If I decide to use Alodine on my Kolb project, I figured I could cut a piece of 6 or 8 inch plastic pipe (with caps on the ends) in half lengthwise, and have two troughs for the Alumiprep and Alodine. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/13/16, Charlie England wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Last Flight 2005/Alodine/Corrosion Prevention To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, April 13, 2016, 1:29 PM Just to avoid any confusion, alumiprep is needed, but it ain't alodine. Alumiprep is the acid etch used *after* cleaning off all the oils/contaminates, and prior to the alodine process. Alumiprep strips off the oxide layer that's on all untreated aluminum, so the alodine can work on the alloy itself. Small parts can be dipped in the alumiprep, meaning it can be re-used multiple times before it loses its effectiveness. Same applies to alodine, but don't use it outdoors or where sunlight can hit it; sunlight (UV?) degrades it fairly quickly. Good tip on the powder. Even the powder triggers hazmat fees even though it's non-toxic when dry, but still *much* cheaper if you mix yourself. Ask for Iridite powder if you can buy local. Best tip I ever heard was to mix a large batch in a plastic drum or even a black plastic garbage can, if you can seal it up when not in use. If kept away from light, it will remain active for a long time, and timed 'dipping' is a lot easier & more effective than trying to flow it, or mop it on with sponges or rags. Toughest thing to do with large surfaces is keep the entire surface wet (with either chemical) until the 'exposure time' has run and you rinse it off with clean water. One trick is to build a trough with plastic sheet suspended behind/above it, so runoff goes in the trough for re-use. A cheap fountain pump from Harbor Freight rigged to recycle fluid from the trough might last long enough to do the big stuff. Don't forget, both are highly toxic, so use carefully. Full strength alumiprep will eat your concrete floor (I can testify). Alumiprep is a Chromate product, and Chromates are banned in a lot of states due to toxicity. No reason to be terrified of them, but you do need to respect them (eye protection, good gloves, etc). Charlie On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Richard Girard wrote: Alodine works better if its used under an epoxy coating. As I believe the Poly Fiber book recommends.One sure way to get your Kolb wing or tail to corrode whether you alodine or not; don't install drain grommets. Once again, as the Poly Fiber book recommends.Tip on Alodine. It doesn't work forever. Look at the product usage and see how many square feet it will convert and protect. The Alumiprep that Spruce sells is good for 100 sq. ft. of coverage per quart. Sounds like a lot until you consider that a single 4 X 8 sheet of aluminum is 96 square feet (both sides).Years ago a fellow in EAA Chapter 1000 (Edwards Air Force Base) noted that you're paying a hell of a lot for water when you buy premixed alodine. He bought the powder from Henkel Technologies and bought his own distilled water. Unfortunately the minimum purchase size was $100 (early 2000's) but he had enough to do something like 4 RV style aluminum airplanes. On the other hand, if you buy quarts from Spruce you won't even get a gallon of premix for $100.So, buy the gallon for $42 and get 4 times as much for 1.5 times greater price. Or better yet, go to your local auto body materials distributor and avoid the hazardous materials fees for shipping. Rick Girard On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 7:00 AM, John Hauck wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" Only thing I Alodine on my MKIII is the engine mounts for the 912. I do not paint them. Initially, I did paint them and had a problem with lose engine mount bolts when the primer and paint wore between the two surfaces. Haven't found it necessary to use a corrosion preventive treatment on alclad aluminum tubing. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama Started on the stabilizers of my Firestar kit Saturday, got one side cut, fitted and Clecoed, and was able to start cutting tubes for the second one. Does anyone have a recommendation for or againsit using Alodine chemical conversion as a no-weight corrosion preventive treatment on the aluminum tails? Bill Berle ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:27 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Drain hole 'dancer' From: Charlie England Quick & dirty pic of the drain hole 'dancer' I was trying to describe. Made it in about a minute using needle nose pliers & safety wire pliers. Spiral it into the drain hole; won't come out until you remove it. Charlie ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:25 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: alodine process From: Charlie England One version of the alodine process (note that the 1st step is 'clean (as recommended).' That would be the clean/degrease/alumiprep (acid etch) process. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/Iridite-Instructions.pdf Charlie ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 447 Head bolt torque... From: Herb I did a search..and gound all of the torques...so we are good to go...I will send him the link...Herb On 04/13/2016 11:59 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Herb, Have your buddy download the Rotax Two Stroke Illustrated Parts > Catalog (IPC). Go to Chapter 10 Torques and he'll find ever screw, > bolt, stud, and nut with its part no. and chapter where it can be > found, size and thread, and everything else you need to know to > properly button up a 447, 503, or 582. > > Rick Girard > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Herb > wrote: > > > > > Already in trouble with the list Gods...forgot to change the > subject line...!! > > Now...to show how forgetful I am...got an email from the guy who > bought my Firefly... > > I told him to be sure to re torque the cyl head nuts/studs.... > I think the correct torque is 195 inch lbs. or 17 ft lbs...that > correct? > > They do loosen up ! considerably... > > I think I also told him that I would change the cooling fan > belt...since we have an unknown with it... Herb > > On 04/12/2016 07:30 PM, Herb wrote: > > > > > A lot of the guys on the list know each other, either from > flyins or cross country stints...so the List Gods tend to > tollerate small transgressions from time to time.... > > the general attitude is one of a bit of tolerance and the > list Gods generally say..."go forth and sin no more"! :-) Herb > > On 04/12/2016 06:01 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > > > > "Greg Taylor" > > Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it > is by God's Grace that we are Saved. > ----------------- > > What's this have to do with Kolbs? > > Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too? > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red > light and turn left. > > > ========== > br> fts!) > r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > -- > > > Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:28 PM PST US From: "Greg Taylor" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 447 Head bolt torque... It's a good message, but I don't want intrude on the list. However for me God is related to everything including flying, its a great way to view his creation. By the way is there any good mark 3's out there for sale? -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russ Kinne Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 10:58 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 447 Head bolt torque... Greg, why the mini-sermon?? Thats not KOLB-related! > On Apr 12, 2016, at 9:04 PM, Herb wrote: > > > Already in trouble with the list Gods...forgot to change the subject line...!! > > Now...to show how forgetful I am...got an email from the guy who bought my Firefly... > > I told him to be sure to re torque the cyl head nuts/studs.... I think the correct torque is 195 inch lbs. or 17 ft lbs...that correct? > > They do loosen up ! considerably... > > I think I also told him that I would change the cooling fan > belt...since we have an unknown with it... Herb > > On 04/12/2016 07:30 PM, Herb wrote: >> >> A lot of the guys on the list know each other, either from flyins or cross country stints...so the List Gods tend to tollerate small transgressions from time to time.... >> >> the general attitude is one of a bit of tolerance and the list Gods >> generally say..."go forth and sin no more"! :-) Herb >> >> On 04/12/2016 06:01 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >>> --> >>> >>> >>> "Greg Taylor" >>> Good video, Christ has pay the prince for our sins, it is by God's Grace that we are Saved. >>> ----------------- >>> >>> What's this have to do with Kolbs? >>> >>> Can I post all of my other non-Kolb stuff here too? >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.