---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/03/16: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:04 AM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Herb) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (racerjerry) 3. 06:30 AM - Re: new to Kolb list (flywithme) 4. 06:33 AM - Re: new to Kolb list (flywithme) 5. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (John Hauck) 6. 07:54 AM - Missed my lunch reservations. (west1m) 7. 08:32 AM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Richard Girard) 8. 08:43 AM - Re: Missed my lunch reservations. (Richard Girard) 9. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Rick Neilsen) 10. 09:04 AM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Herb) 11. 09:11 AM - Re: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Larry Cottrell) 12. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (John Hauck) 13. 09:18 AM - snow what??? (Herb) 14. 09:21 AM - Re: Re: new to Kolb list (Stuart Harner) 15. 09:31 AM - Re: Missed my lunch reservations. (west1m) 16. 10:59 AM - Re: snow what??? (Bill Berle) 17. 11:10 AM - Re: snow what??? (John Hauck) 18. 11:43 AM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Stuart Harner) 19. 11:44 AM - Re: snow what??? (Herb) 20. 12:00 PM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Bill Berle) 21. 12:01 PM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Herb) 22. 12:08 PM - Re: snow what??? (w0odi) 23. 12:16 PM - Re: snow what??? (Bill Berle) 24. 12:27 PM - Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? (Stuart Harner) 25. 01:18 PM - Re: snow what??? (John Hauck) 26. 01:25 PM - Re: snow what??? (Larry Cottrell) 27. 01:28 PM - Fw: snow what??? (Larry Cottrell) 28. 02:02 PM - Re: snow what??? (Bill Berle) 29. 02:24 PM - Re: snow what??? (Herb) 30. 02:39 PM - Re: snow what??? (Herb) 31. 02:51 PM - Re: snow what??? (John Hauck) 32. 03:21 PM - Re: snow what??? (Bill Berle) 33. 03:36 PM - Re: snow what??? (Herb) 34. 03:52 PM - Re: snow what??? (John Hauck) 35. 03:56 PM - Firefly Accident...too late now...! (Herb) 36. 04:00 PM - Re: snow what??? (Bill Berle) 37. 04:03 PM - Re: snow what??? (Larry Cottrell) 38. 04:07 PM - Re:great white hunter... (Herb) 39. 04:12 PM - firefly accident in Ill.. (Herb) 40. 04:46 PM - Re: snow what??? (Herb) 41. 05:54 PM - Re: snow what??? (pcking) 42. 07:44 PM - ground aerobatics... (Herb) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Herb When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > > Ever year we have several members finish their > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it > would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying > experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document > of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed > projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to > get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb > will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will > be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what > are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that > one of the company owner would have printed some of the > information, but if they have I have never heard a reference > to it. What do you think? > > Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without > the support and knowledge of this group! > > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska > PAAQ > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > > > > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:29 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: "racerjerry" The very best thing a new Kolb pilot can do is to GET DUAL INSTRUCTION in a 2-place KOLB. Let me rephrase that - It is the ONLY thing to do! The sight picture and flight characteristics of any side-by-side 2-place Kolb are nearly the same as a single seat Kolb and VERY different from a Champ. A while back, we had a very experienced GA pilot stall/mush a perfectly good ultralight clear into the ground on its first flight because of the differences. In this case, it was not a Kolb. The combination of light weight, very draggy airframe and high thrust line of the pusher prop in a Kolb can quickly get you into trouble if you do not know what to expect. When you get off the throttle, you must be ready to immediately apply forward stick to maintain airspeed. Very unlike a Champ that has the weight and inertia to keep up speed. Fly 'em to the ground with power not completely off (at least in the beginning) and Kolbs are very safe and an absolute joy to fly. Well, at least they are a joy when the winds are not howling. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455786#455786 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:48 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: new to Kolb list From: "flywithme" yes a fly inn would be great although i need to repair the runway first. it would be fun to meet other Kolb owners and get to see their airplanes and pick their brains for wisdom. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455788#455788 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:33 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: new to Kolb list From: "flywithme" I have a few questions. on my firefly i have differential brakes that are cable operated and the levers are on the control stick. if when landing i have one hand on the throttle and i need brakes do i need to be carefull not to ground loop? should i change to a single lever? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455789#455789 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:38 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Cross check the ASI and keep it above stall speed. No stall. Pretty simple. Forget the ASI, fall below stall speed and stall. Can be fatal. I started flying Kolbs in 1984. I still keep a close cross check on my airspeed on approach to nearly touchdown. Don't ask me what the V speeds are on my MKIII, which I have been flying for 24 years. It takes off when it is ready to fly, climbs out about 60 mph, shoot my approaches about 50 mph. I try not to fly beyond 100 and drop the flaps above 70. Maneuver speed is when I slow down because it is getting to rough for me to be comfortable. My MKIII stalls at 38 to 40 clean, 35 with half flaps (20 degrees), and about 32 with full flaps (40 degrees). I think these will be a few mph slower when I get John Gilpin's VGs installed, hopefully, when the wind and weather lightens up a bit. I frequently check stall speeds to keep me up to date, especially when I have a passenger, which I don't fly very often, and when I take off with 150 lbs of fuel and 100 lbs of gear on board. Sorry I am not more help. I try to keep my Kolb and my approach to fly it as simple as possible. The above works for me. I don't know if it will work for you or not. Does that relieve me of liability? ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 8:19 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? The very best thing a new Kolb pilot can do is to GET DUAL INSTRUCTION in a 2-place KOLB. Let me rephrase that - It is the ONLY thing to do! The sight picture and flight characteristics of any side-by-side 2-place Kolb are nearly the same as a single seat Kolb and VERY different from a Champ. A while back, we had a very experienced GA pilot stall/mush a perfectly good ultralight clear into the ground on its first flight because of the differences. In this case, it was not a Kolb. The combination of light weight, very draggy airframe and high thrust line of the pusher prop in a Kolb can quickly get you into trouble if you do not know what to expect. When you get off the throttle, you must be ready to immediately apply forward stick to maintain airspeed. Very unlike a Champ that has the weight and inertia to keep up speed. Fly 'em to the ground with power not completely off (at least in the beginning) and Kolbs are very safe and an absolute joy to fly. Well, at least they are a joy when the winds are not howling. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455786#455786 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Missed my lunch reservations. From: "west1m" This is a copy of an email I sent a friend (easier than retyping) It should have been a good day for a hundred dollar hamburger! I flew to Menomomnie checked out the huge Walmart distribution center. Filled up with fuel and headed to Chetek for a burger at Reds Food Emporium. Well I almost made it... The idiot light came on and told me the alternator quit. Decision time! I am only about 8-9 miles from Chetek, been flying about 20 miles so far. Can't fix anything in Chetek so I decided to head back to New Richmond. Punched in KRNH and the GPS says 40 miles.... About 10 miles further the EIS quit, no gages alt, gas gauge, rpm, etc. in another 5 mi or so the I-Fly GPS quits. Good thing I rely on my Goecaching hand held! Anyway I made it back with fumes to spare.. I haven't had time to check it out yet so I don't know if it's the alt, reg, or wiring issue. but the batt sure went dead fast after the alt quit, the only thing running is the EIS , I-Fly and a fuel gauge sender on the tank I'll get out the meter but off hand does this seem like a lot of power use for a Rotax alt? -------- West1m Hastings, MN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455793#455793 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/menomomnie_may2_614.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3928_603.jpg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Richard Girard After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low > time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very > well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on th e > comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument > panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the > foam joy stick grip?? Herb > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > >> >> Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors >> of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. >> >> On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane >> guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly >> manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, >> and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my >> services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual >> rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they >> may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM >> Nick Cassara >> Kolbers, >> Ever year we have several =9Cmembers=9D finish their >> projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it >> would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying >> experience could create a =9CKolb Flying Tips =9C document >> of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed >> projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to >> get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb >> will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a >> do=99s and don=99t of fly the Kolb. I know that there will >> be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what >> are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that >> one of the company owner would have printed some of the >> information, but if they have I have never heard a reference >> to it. What do you think? >> Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without >> the support and knowledge of this group! >> Nick Cassara >> Palmer, Alaska >> PAAQ >> Kolbra Kit #1 >> Forum - >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> List Contribution Web Site - >> -Matt >> Dralle, List Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and > turn left. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Missed my lunch reservations. From: Richard Girard You didn't mention what battery you have in the airplane. This should be a cautionary tale to those who run batteries with sketchy specs. Imagine what the results might have been if you'd had an electrically dependent ignition system. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:54 AM, west1m wrote: > > This is a copy of an email I sent a friend (easier than retyping) > > It should have been a good day for a hundred dollar hamburger! > I flew to Menomomnie checked out the huge Walmart distribution center. > Filled up with > fuel and headed to Chetek for a burger at Reds Food Emporium. > Well I almost made it... > The idiot light came on and told me the alternator quit. Decision time! > I am only about 8-9 miles from Chetek, been flying about 20 miles so far. > Can't fix anything in Chetek so I decided to head back to New Richmond. > Punched in KRNH and the GPS says 40 miles.... > About 10 miles further the EIS quit, no gages alt, gas gauge, rpm, etc. > in another 5 mi or so the I-Fly GPS quits. Good thing I rely on my > Goecaching hand held! > Anyway I made it back with fumes to spare.. > > I haven't had time to check it out yet so I don't know if it's the alt, > reg, or wiring issue. but the batt sure went dead fast after the alt quit , > the only thing running is the EIS , I-Fly and a fuel gauge sender on the > tank > > I'll get out the meter but off hand does this seem like a lot of power us e > for a Rotax alt? > > -------- > West1m > Hastings, MN > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455793#455793 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/menomomnie_may2_614.jpg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_3928_603.jpg > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Rick Neilsen Be aware that our airplanes are all different. They are not a identically built Cessna or Piper and that is mostly a good thing. Indicated air speeds are always inaccurate to some extent. Some more than others. Your static source is the most common point of inaccuracy. Adding to that our planes may stall, have a flap failure and/or structural failure at different actual air speeds. We have seen posts that talk about wildly inaccurate airspeed readings. Some have reported airspeeds that do not change in flight. My plane showed inaccurate air speeds by more than 15 MPH low for first few flights, right when I needed it most. Yes it was a static source issue. Bottom line don't fly your new plane by the numbers given by anyone. Use the V numbers as only a basic guide. You are going to be a test pilot. Listen to wind sounds. Watch the ASI on takeoff roll. Note the indicated air speed when the plane takes flight and what it indicates in different attitudes especially when it stalls. Again worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:58 AM, John Hauck wrote: > > Cross check the ASI and keep it above stall speed. No stall. Pretty > simple. > > Forget the ASI, fall below stall speed and stall. Can be fatal. > > I started flying Kolbs in 1984. I still keep a close cross check on my > airspeed on approach to nearly touchdown. > > Don't ask me what the V speeds are on my MKIII, which I have been flying > for > 24 years. It takes off when it is ready to fly, climbs out about 60 mph, > shoot my approaches about 50 mph. I try not to fly beyond 100 and drop > the > flaps above 70. Maneuver speed is when I slow down because it is getting > to > rough for me to be comfortable. > > My MKIII stalls at 38 to 40 clean, 35 with half flaps (20 degrees), and > about 32 with full flaps (40 degrees). I think these will be a few mph > slower when I get John Gilpin's VGs installed, hopefully, when the wind and > weather lightens up a bit. > > I frequently check stall speeds to keep me up to date, especially when I > have a passenger, which I don't fly very often, and when I take off with > 150 > lbs of fuel and 100 lbs of gear on board. > > Sorry I am not more help. I try to keep my Kolb and my approach to fly it > as simple as possible. > > The above works for me. I don't know if it will work for you or not. Does > that relieve me of liability? ;-) > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 8:19 AM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? > > > The very best thing a new Kolb pilot can do is to GET DUAL INSTRUCTION in a > 2-place KOLB. Let me rephrase that - It is the ONLY thing to do! > > The sight picture and flight characteristics of any side-by-side 2-place > Kolb are nearly the same as a single seat Kolb and VERY different from a > Champ. > > A while back, we had a very experienced GA pilot stall/mush a perfectly > good > ultralight clear into the ground on its first flight because of the > differences. In this case, it was not a Kolb. The combination of light > weight, very draggy airframe and high thrust line of the pusher prop in a > Kolb can quickly get you into trouble if you do not know what to expect. > > When you get off the throttle, you must be ready to immediately apply > forward stick to maintain airspeed. Very unlike a Champ that has the > weight > and inertia to keep up speed. > > Fly 'em to the ground with power not completely off (at least in the > beginning) and Kolbs are very safe and an absolute joy to fly. Well, at > least they are a joy when the winds are not howling. > > -------- > Jerry King > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455786#455786 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Herb Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional > project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some > real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely > unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying > manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't > fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can > find himself in real trouble. > > Rick Girard > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > wrote: > > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about > a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is > doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) > I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have > painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? > Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect > the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the > s**t hits the fan. > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced > "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an > improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and > construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the > factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. > I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual > rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their > decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a > better manual.. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & > performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - > winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > Ever year we have several members finish their > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it > would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying > experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document > of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed > projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to > get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb > will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will > be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what > are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that > one of the company owner would have printed some of the > information, but if they have I have never heard a reference > to it. What do you think? > Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without > the support and knowledge of this group! > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska > PAAQ > Kolbra Kit #1 > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red > light and turn left. > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > -- > > > Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:31 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Larry Cottrell Just to add to the good advice given you by Rick, I make it a practice when flying a strange airplane, to get up about a 1000 feet and do a stall, checking where it stalls on the ASI. That will give you the knowledge that you will need to safely get it back on the ground again. It doesn't matter whether the ASI is correct or not, what you need is to know is how much faster you need it to read to keep from stalling. I once tested a guy's Firestar that had put every bell and whistle on that he could think of. It was at close to max gross with me as pilot. I carefully flew it off the ground and up to 1000 feet agl. Wide open throttle the ASI showed 60 MPH. I throttled back and it stalled at 56 MPH. Needless to say I did a wheel landing when I got it on the ground. Larry On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Rick Neilsen wrote: > Be aware that our airplanes are all different. They are not a identically > built Cessna or Piper and that is mostly a good thing. Indicated air > speeds are always inaccurate to some extent. Some more than others. Your > static source is the most common point of inaccuracy. Adding to that our > planes may stall, have a flap failure and/or structural failure at > different actual air speeds. > > We have seen posts that talk about wildly inaccurate airspeed readings. > Some have reported airspeeds that do not change in flight. My plane showed > inaccurate air speeds by more than 15 MPH low for first few flights, right > when I needed it most. Yes it was a static source issue. > > Bottom line don't fly your new plane by the numbers given by anyone. Use > the V numbers as only a basic guide. You are going to be a test pilot. > Listen to wind sounds. Watch the ASI on takeoff roll. Note the indicated > air speed when the plane takes flight and what it indicates in different > attitudes especially when it stalls. > > Again worth what you paid for it. > > Rick Neilsen > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 9:58 AM, John Hauck wrote: > >> >> Cross check the ASI and keep it above stall speed. No stall. Pretty >> simple. >> >> Forget the ASI, fall below stall speed and stall. Can be fatal. >> >> I started flying Kolbs in 1984. I still keep a close cross check on my >> airspeed on approach to nearly touchdown. >> >> Don't ask me what the V speeds are on my MKIII, which I have been flying >> for >> 24 years. It takes off when it is ready to fly, climbs out about 60 mph, >> shoot my approaches about 50 mph. I try not to fly beyond 100 and drop >> the >> flaps above 70. Maneuver speed is when I slow down because it is getting >> to >> rough for me to be comfortable. >> >> My MKIII stalls at 38 to 40 clean, 35 with half flaps (20 degrees), and >> about 32 with full flaps (40 degrees). I think these will be a few mph >> slower when I get John Gilpin's VGs installed, hopefully, when the wind >> and >> weather lightens up a bit. >> >> I frequently check stall speeds to keep me up to date, especially when I >> have a passenger, which I don't fly very often, and when I take off with >> 150 >> lbs of fuel and 100 lbs of gear on board. >> >> Sorry I am not more help. I try to keep my Kolb and my approach to fly it >> as simple as possible. >> >> The above works for me. I don't know if it will work for you or not. >> Does >> that relieve me of liability? ;-) >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 8:19 AM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? >> >> >> The very best thing a new Kolb pilot can do is to GET DUAL INSTRUCTION in >> a >> 2-place KOLB. Let me rephrase that - It is the ONLY thing to do! >> >> The sight picture and flight characteristics of any side-by-side 2-place >> Kolb are nearly the same as a single seat Kolb and VERY different from a >> Champ. >> >> A while back, we had a very experienced GA pilot stall/mush a perfectly >> good >> ultralight clear into the ground on its first flight because of the >> differences. In this case, it was not a Kolb. The combination of light >> weight, very draggy airframe and high thrust line of the pusher prop in a >> Kolb can quickly get you into trouble if you do not know what to expect. >> >> When you get off the throttle, you must be ready to immediately apply >> forward stick to maintain airspeed. Very unlike a Champ that has the >> weight >> and inertia to keep up speed. >> >> Fly 'em to the ground with power not completely off (at least in the >> beginning) and Kolbs are very safe and an absolute joy to fly. Well, at >> least they are a joy when the winds are not howling. >> >> -------- >> Jerry King >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455786#455786 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:45 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Allow me to add to Rick's comments. Although the ASI may not be calibrated correctly, huge error between indicated and true airspeed, as long as it is operational and you have checked, it will indicate stall speed. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Be aware that our airplanes are all different. They are not a identically built Cessna or Piper and that is mostly a good thing. Indicated air speeds are always inaccurate to some extent. Some more than others. Your static source is the most common point of inaccuracy. Adding to that our planes may stall, have a flap failure and/or structural failure at different actual air speeds. We have seen posts that talk about wildly inaccurate airspeed readings. Some have reported airspeeds that do not change in flight. My plane showed inaccurate air speeds by more than 15 MPH low for first few flights, right when I needed it most. Yes it was a static source issue. Bottom line don't fly your new plane by the numbers given by anyone. Use the V numbers as only a basic guide. You are going to be a test pilot. Listen to wind sounds. Watch the ASI on takeoff roll. Note the indicated air speed when the plane takes flight and what it indicates in different attitudes especially when it stalls. Again worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:07 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the one flying the Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube site... this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? Herb I understand that you were not the one flying the Firefly in that video? I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you dead....Kolbs have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on landing and dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! If you are lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and bend the frame...but you will still get something broken.... You must get some dual instruction in another plane of similar characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it back and come and get it...Herb On 05/03/2016 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > Rick > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link > below!!! I am sick!!! Herb > > On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: >> After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional >> project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some >> real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely >> unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying >> manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't >> fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can >> find himself in real trouble. >> >> Rick Girard >> >> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > wrote: >> >> >> When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried >> about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that >> he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a >> BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to >> not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing >> that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg >> >> >> >> On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: >> >> >> >> Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect >> the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the >> s**t hits the fan. >> >> On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced >> "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an >> improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and >> construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the >> factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my >> services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly >> manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their >> decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a >> better manual.. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & >> performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - >> winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM >> Nick Cassara > >> Kolbers, >> Ever year we have several members finish their >> projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it >> would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying >> experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document >> of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed >> projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to >> get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb >> will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a >> dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will >> be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what >> are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that >> one of the company owner would have printed some of the >> information, but if they have I have never heard a reference >> to it. What do you think? >> Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without >> the support and knowledge of this group! >> Nick Cassara >> Palmer, Alaska >> PAAQ >> Kolbra Kit #1 >> Forum - >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> List Contribution Web Site - >> -Matt >> Dralle, List Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red >> light and turn left. >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho >> Marx >> >> > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:37 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: new to Kolb list First question, yes. If you have enough airspeed that the tail is up, you have rudder but it is still a tail dragger and they are always trying to swap ends while on the ground. Remember the center of gravity is behind the main gear and wants to be in front of it. It is up to the pilot to make a tail dragger stays in the unnatural state of wheels first. Second question, maybe. That is probably something you will have to learn how to coordinate during taxi tests. Once your fingers learn the routine it will probably not be an issue. Having said that, I can see where hand levers could cause a problem on a bounce or a gust of wind. I have toe brakes and the same could probably be said of them. During initial taxi tests I discovered that my brakes were not adjusted the same from side to side. I stopped and corrected that before continuing on with tests. No sense in testing something with a known abnormality that might cover up something else. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flywithme Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 8:33 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: new to Kolb list I have a few questions. on my firefly i have differential brakes that are cable operated and the levers are on the control stick. if when landing i have one hand on the throttle and i need brakes do i need to be carefull not to ground loop? should i change to a single lever? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455789#455789 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:58 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Missed my lunch reservations. From: "west1m" The Batt is two seasons old one of the light weight lithium, I believe 12amp /hr? (no spec here). Rotax 447 motor The independent ignition system was the biggest factor in my pressing on back to KRNH. next was the fuel, there were a lot of farmers out working I might have been able to stop and get fuel but no rope start, would have to hand prop. -------- West1m Hastings, MN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455809#455809 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:12 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Looking at the youtube video, it appears as though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the one flying the Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube site... this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? Herb I understand that you were not the one flying the Firefly in that video? I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you dead....Kolbs have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on landing and dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! If you are lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and bend the frame...but you will still get something broken.... You must get some dual instruction in another plane of similar characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it back and come and get it...Herb On 05/03/2016 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: Berle Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara Kolbers, Ever year we have several members finish their projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that one of the company owner would have printed some of the information, but if they have I have never heard a reference to it. What do you think? Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without the support and knowledge of this group! Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska PAAQ Kolbra Kit #1 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:00 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? I didn't notice the position of the stick. Was too busy looking out at the countryside. One can rig the stick anywhere it is comfortable for him, by adjusting aileron push/pull tubes, and elevator cable turn buckles. I like mine to fall into my hand when I am in a nice comfortable relaxed position with my right elbow on my right thigh. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Looking at the youtube video, it appears as though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the one flying the Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube site... this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? Herb I understand that you were not the one flying the Firefly in that video? I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you dead....Kolbs have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on landing and dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! If you are lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and bend the frame...but you will still get something broken.... You must get some dual instruction in another plane of similar characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it back and come and get it...Herb On 05/03/2016 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM --> Kolb-List message posted by: Nick Cassara Kolbers, Ever year we have several members finish their projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that one of the company owner would have printed some of the information, but if they have I have never heard a reference to it. What do you think? Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without the support and knowledge of this group! Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska PAAQ Kolbra Kit #1 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:54 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known chicken in the air. If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote: When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM Nick Cassara Kolbers, Ever year we have several =9Cmembers=9D finish their projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying experience could create a =9CKolb Flying Tips =9C document of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a do=99s and don=99t of fly the Kolb. I know that there will be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that one of the company owner would have printed some of the information, but if they have I have never heard a reference to it. What do you think? Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without the support and knowledge of this group! Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska PAAQ Kolbra Kit #1 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb I noticed that and have just chatted with the guy who flew the plane...he said it flew perfectly...no problems at all...and he has 20+ plus years in Kolbs... owns a Fly... Several Kolbs at the field... I then assumed camera angle...but did not think to ask...after his "perfectly" statement... Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb On 05/03/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Looking at the youtube video, it appears as though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. > > Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM > > > > > > > Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the > one flying the > Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube > site... > > > > this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? > Herb > > > > > > I understand that you were not the one flying the > Firefly in that > video? > > > > I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you > dead....Kolbs > have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on > landing and > dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! > If you are > lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and > bend the > frame...but you will still get something broken.... > > > > You must get some dual instruction in another > plane of similar > characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... > > > > Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it > back and come > and get it...Herb > > On 05/03/2016 > 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > > > > Rick > > > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You > tube at the > link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb > > > > On > 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard > Girard wrote: > > > > After my experience with the > "Plane from Hell", I > think a additional project should be a "how > to inspect a Kolb > (model). There are some real morons out there when > it comes to > building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes > to selling. > You can have all the flying manuals you want but > if the plane > is poorly built it probably won't fly within > the manual > parameters and a pilot with little skill can find > himself in > real trouble. > > > > Rick Girard > > > > On Tue, May > 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > wrote: > > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: Herb > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was > naturally > worried about a low time pilot....but this > video seems to > indicate that he is doing very well...guide or > no...I > notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned > on the > comments that it was a Herbup to not have > painted the > instrument panel...must have been dozing that > day?? Not > sure what happened to the foam joy stick > grip?? Herb > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Berle > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so > long as you can > protect the authors of those tips from > liability or > blame when the s**t hits the fan. > > > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder > but an > experienced "airplane guy", I > believe there is also > a strong need for an improved assembly > manual. I > have written assembly and construction > manuals > professionally, and I have sent the > factory an > e-mail that mentioned this and offered > my services. > I would be very glad to participate in > the assembly > manual rewrite if the factory is > interested. But it > is their decision, and they may not > agree that there > is a need for a better manual.. > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for > light > aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - > winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit > entities > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new > Pilot Guide to > Kolb flying? > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: > > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > > Ever year we have several > members finish their > > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our > group. I > think it > > would be a good thing if those of you > with Kolb > flying > > experience could create a Kolb > Flying Tips > document > > of some sort. I hope to joint the > group of > completed > > projects this summer, and I know the > best think to > do is to > > get more time in a Champ, but I know, > that flying > my Kolb > > will be different than flying the > Champ. So how > about a > > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I > know that there > will > > be differences in every Kolb built > and each model, > but what > > are the average V speeds for each > model? I would > think that > > one of the company owner would have > printed some > of the > > information, but if they have I have > never heard a > reference > > to it. What do you think? > > Thanks as always, I would have > never gotten this > far without > > the support and knowledge of this > group! > > Nick Cassara > > Palmer, Alaska > > PAAQ > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > Forum - > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? > Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn > left. > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Blessed are > the cracked, for they shall let in the > light. Groucho > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:52 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? "Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known chicken in the air. If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly." Are we all talking about the traditional "wingover" maneuver that the guy did in the video at the 3:04 mark and 3:58 mark? Or is there some sort of inverted flat spin and Lomcevak he did that I didn't see when watching the video? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Stuart Harner wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:43 AM #yiv4032260202 #yiv4032260202 -- _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;} #yiv4032260202 #yiv4032260202 p.yiv4032260202MsoNormal, #yiv4032260202 li.yiv4032260202MsoNormal, #yiv4032260202 div.yiv4032260202MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 h1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:24.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 a:link, #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4032260202 a:visited, #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4032260202 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202hoenzb {} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202Heading1Char {color:#365F91;font-weight:bold;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202HTMLPreformattedChar {color:black;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202EmailStyle21 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv4032260202 .yiv4032260202MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv4032260202 div.yiv4032260202WordSection1 {} #yiv4032260202 Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known chicken in the air. If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 11:05 AM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote:After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM Nick Cassara Kolbers, Ever year we have several members finish their projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that one of the company owner would have printed some of the information, but if they have I have never heard a reference to it. What do you think? Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without the support and knowledge of this group! Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska PAAQ Kolbra Kit #1 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:05 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? From: Herb I was relieved to learn that the pilot had 40+ years in Kolbs and ga planes... When I first believed it was the low time owner...I thought that he was going to be safe in this little bird...flew confidently...though putting the Fly through more paces in one flight than I have in years... They are strong....no doubt... I suspect that Dennis and John have flown some interesting maneuvers... :-) Not sure if in a Fly however?? :-) Herb On 05/03/2016 01:43 PM, Stuart Harner wrote: > > Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known > chicken in the air. > > If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly. > > Stuart > > *From:*owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Herb > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 11:05 AM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? > > Rick > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link > below!!! I am sick!!! Herb > > On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > > After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a > additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). > There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and > absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all > the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it > probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with > little skill can find himself in real trouble. > > Rick Girard > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > wrote: > > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about > a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is > doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) > I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have > painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? > Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the > authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits > the fan. > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced > "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an > improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction > manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that > mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to > participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is > interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that > there is a need for a better manual.. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & > performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning > proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > Ever year we have several members finish their > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it > would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying > experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document > of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed > projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to > get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb > will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will > be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what > are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that > one of the company owner would have printed some of the > information, but if they have I have never heard a reference > to it. What do you think? > Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without > the support and knowledge of this group! > Nick Cassara > Palmer, Alaska > PAAQ > Kolbra Kit #1 > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red > light and turn left. > > > ========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > -- > > > Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. > Groucho Marx > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:27 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: snow what??? From: "w0odi" you can't fix arrogance or stupid but you can hopefully nip in the bud with the wife.... sounds like the kind of person that knows it all and in reality don't know JACK!! I don't own a kolb but I do have enough sense to know that I would need training to fly it... that would be like climbing in a citabria and having never flown and expecting to fly it like the experts.....Good luck guys.. the story scares me.. I fly a quicksilver and just lurk around here because of the good info about flying in general.. I love the kolb and have ever since seeing my first one at Oshkosh in 91.. This guy needs to re think his abilities.. I have seen these types.. they usually don't last to long.. I think he maybe one of these the warning labels have been created for.. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455824#455824 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/labelonly_sm_132.png ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:20 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Can someone explain to me what is being discussed here, I'm afraid that I'm not getting something that's important. What I am reading on this discussion forum sounds like it is different than what people are upset or irritated about. I must be missing a big piece of this story. Here is what I am "hearing" on the discussion forum : 1) Herb sold his beautiful Firefly to someone, and 2) that someone (the buyer) allowed someone else (with 20+ years in Kolbs) to fly it for that video, and 3) that highly experienced Kolb pilot did two traditional wingover maneuvers on camera, and 4) the buyer of Herb's Firefly (who was not shown in the video) now needs to be saved before something awful happens to his family. I am NOT being a smart-ass (my usual self), I'm just missing part of the story and I do not understand what specific thing happened that has ruined Herb's day, made him so upset, who crashed the airplane and when, and why he would rather have seen the airplane destroyed. Another thing I think I noticed is that the farm where this video was taken APPEARS to be the same farm where a previous youtube video was done showing the Kolb doing numerous slow takeoffs and landings by a pretty good quality pilot. Like I said, I am probably missing something significant... can someone clue me in? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:44 AM Herb I noticed that and have just chatted with the guy who flew the plane...he said it flew perfectly...no problems at all...and he has 20+ plus years in Kolbs... owns a Fly... Several Kolbs at the field... I then assumed camera angle...but did not think to ask...after his "perfectly" statement... Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!)Herb On 05/03/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Looking at the youtube video, it appears as though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. > > Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > >Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM > > > > > > > Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the >one flying the > Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube >site... > > > > this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? >Herb > > > > > > I understand that you were not the one flying the >Firefly in that > video? > > > > I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you >dead....Kolbs > have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on >landing and > dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! >If you are > lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and >bend the > frame...but you will still get something broken.... > > > > You must get some dual instruction in another >plane of similar > characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... > > > > Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it >back and come > and get it...Herb > > On 05/03/2016 >11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > > > > Rick > > > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You >tube at the > link below!!! I am sick!!!Herb > > > > On >05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard > Girard wrote: > > > > After my experience with the >"Plane from Hell", I > think a additional project should be a "how >to inspect a Kolb > (model). There are some real morons out there when >it comes to > building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes >to selling. > You can have all the flying manuals you want but >if the plane > is poorly built it probably won't fly within >the manual > parameters and a pilot with little skill can find >himself in > real trouble. > > > > Rick Girard > > > > On Tue, May >3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > wrote: > > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: Herb > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was >naturally > worried about a low time pilot....but this >video seems to > indicate that he is doing very well...guide or >no...I > notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned >on the > comments that it was a Herbup to not have >painted the > instrument panel...must have been dozing that >day?? Not > sure what happened to the foam joy stick >grip?? Herb > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill >Berle > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so >long as you can > protect the authors of those tips from >liability or > blame when the s**t hits the fan. > > > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder >but an > experienced "airplane guy", I >believe there is also > a strong need for an improved assembly >manual. I > have written assembly and construction >manuals > professionally, and I have sent the >factory an > e-mail that mentioned this and offered >my services. > I would be very glad to participate in >the assembly > manual rewrite if the factory is >interested. But it > is their decision, and they may not >agree that there > is a need for a better manual.. > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for >light > aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - > winning proposals for non-profit and >for-profit > entities > > > > >-------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new >Pilot Guide to > Kolb flying? > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > > --> Kolb-List message posted >by: > > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > > Ever year we have several >members finish their > > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our >group. I > think it > > would be a good thing if those of you >with Kolb > flying > > experience could create a Kolb >Flying Tips > document > > of some sort. I hope to joint the >group of > completed > > projects this summer, and I know the >best think to > do is to > > get more time in a Champ, but I know, >that flying > my Kolb > > will be different than flying the >Champ. So how > about a > > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I >know that there > will > > be differences in every Kolb built >and each model, > but what > > are the average V speeds for each >model? I would > think that > > one of the company owner would have >printed some > of the > > information, but if they have I have >never heard a > reference > > to it. What do you think? > > Thanks as always, I would have >never gotten this > far without > > the support and knowledge of this >group! > > Nick Cassara > > Palmer, Alaska > > PAAQ > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > Forum - > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? >Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn >left. > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" >target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" >target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Blessed are > the cracked, for they shall let in the >light.Groucho > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- >Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >red light and turn left. > > > > > -- >Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >red light and turn left. > > > > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:01 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? The part where the earth was spinning under a wing tip. Wingover I guess. Too close to inverted for my taste. One little bump in the air and you are upside down! Used to do that kind of thing in heavier aircraft, but not in my 2-stroke powered leaf. The accelerated stall got my attention too. Of course I have never liked them in any aircraft. Always scared me, never got used to doing that. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 2:00 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? "Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known chicken in the air. If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly." Are we all talking about the traditional "wingover" maneuver that the guy did in the video at the 3:04 mark and 3:58 mark? Or is there some sort of inverted flat spin and Lomcevak he did that I didn't see when watching the video? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Stuart Harner wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:43 AM #yiv4032260202 #yiv4032260202 -- _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {font-family:Georgia;panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 4 5 2 3 3;} #yiv4032260202 #yiv4032260202 p.yiv4032260202MsoNormal, #yiv4032260202 li.yiv4032260202MsoNormal, #yiv4032260202 div.yiv4032260202MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 h1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:24.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 a:link, #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4032260202 a:visited, #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4032260202 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202hoenzb {} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202Heading1Char {color:#365F91;font-weight:bold;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202HTMLPreformattedChar {color:black;} #yiv4032260202 span.yiv4032260202EmailStyle21 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv4032260202 .yiv4032260202MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4032260202 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv4032260202 div.yiv4032260202WordSection1 {} #yiv4032260202 Scared the crap out of me just watching it. Of course I am a known chicken in the air. If I wanted to fly like that I would have a Citabria, not a Firefly. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 11:05 AM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? Rick My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You tube at the link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb On 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote:After my experience with the "Plane from Hell", I think a additional project should be a "how to inspect a Kolb (model). There are some real morons out there when it comes to building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes to selling. You can have all the flying manuals you want but if the plane is poorly built it probably won't fly within the manual parameters and a pilot with little skill can find himself in real trouble. Rick Girard On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb When I sold the Firefly last month...I was naturally worried about a low time pilot....but this video seems to indicate that he is doing very well...guide or no...I notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned on the comments that it was a Herbup to not have painted the instrument panel...must have been dozing that day?? Not sure what happened to the foam joy stick grip?? Herb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle Great idea on the piloting tips, so long as you can protect the authors of those tips from liability or blame when the s**t hits the fan. On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder but an experienced "airplane guy", I believe there is also a strong need for an improved assembly manual. I have written assembly and construction manuals professionally, and I have sent the factory an e-mail that mentioned this and offered my services. I would be very glad to participate in the assembly manual rewrite if the factory is interested. But it is their decision, and they may not agree that there is a need for a better manual.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new Pilot Guide to Kolb flying? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM Nick Cassara Kolbers, Ever year we have several members finish their projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our group. I think it would be a good thing if those of you with Kolb flying experience could create a Kolb Flying Tips document of some sort. I hope to joint the group of completed projects this summer, and I know the best think to do is to get more time in a Champ, but I know, that flying my Kolb will be different than flying the Champ. So how about a dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I know that there will be differences in every Kolb built and each model, but what are the average V speeds for each model? I would think that one of the company owner would have printed some of the information, but if they have I have never heard a reference to it. What do you think? Thanks as always, I would have never gotten this far without the support and knowledge of this group! Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska PAAQ Kolbra Kit #1 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho Marx -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:11 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? You are missing somethings. All Kolb models are very maneuverable aircraft. They are a lot of fun to fly. They are not rated for aerobatics, but will do most aerobatic maneuvers with ease. The two most agile models of Kolbs are the Slingshot and the Firefly, because of their short wing span, primarily. The long wing models are slower to role, but, as Homer Kolb explained to me many years ago when I was complaining about how slow they rolled, "Be gentle and the aircraft will do what you want it to do." Many Kolb pilots never experience any maneuver more than straight and level and slow turns. By pushing the limits of the Kolb I learned how to better fly it, especially when I got myself into serious wind and weather problems. One will never know what his Kolb will do unless he pushes out of his comfort zone a little. I find it very disappointing and sad that many Kolb owners think they can fly without instruction and/or indoctrination. We have lost a lot of Kolb people because of ego and stupidity. It is not necessary. I guess it is very similar to jumping in the water over your head and not knowing how to swim, but have heard how, read the manual, jump in and drown. Not recommending anyone do as I do. Simply expressing how I have experienced my Kolbs over the years. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Can someone explain to me what is being discussed here, I'm afraid that I'm not getting something that's important. What I am reading on this discussion forum sounds like it is different than what people are upset or irritated about. I must be missing a big piece of this story. Here is what I am "hearing" on the discussion forum : 1) Herb sold his beautiful Firefly to someone, and 2) that someone (the buyer) allowed someone else (with 20+ years in Kolbs) to fly it for that video, and 3) that highly experienced Kolb pilot did two traditional wingover maneuvers on camera, and 4) the buyer of Herb's Firefly (who was not shown in the video) now needs to be saved before something awful happens to his family. I am NOT being a smart-ass (my usual self), I'm just missing part of the story and I do not understand what specific thing happened that has ruined Herb's day, made him so upset, who crashed the airplane and when, and why he would rather have seen the airplane destroyed. Another thing I think I noticed is that the farm where this video was taken APPEARS to be the same farm where a previous youtube video was done showing the Kolb doing numerous slow takeoffs and landings by a pretty good quality pilot. Like I said, I am probably missing something significant... can someone clue me in? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:44 AM Herb I noticed that and have just chatted with the guy who flew the plane...he said it flew perfectly...no problems at all...and he has 20+ plus years in Kolbs... owns a Fly... Several Kolbs at the field... I then assumed camera angle...but did not think to ask...after his "perfectly" statement... Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb On 05/03/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM > > > > > > > Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the > one flying the > Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube > site... > > > > this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? > Herb > > > > > > I understand that you were not the one flying the > Firefly in that > video? > > > > I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you > dead....Kolbs > have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on > landing and > dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! > If you are > lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and > bend the > frame...but you will still get something broken.... > > > > You must get some dual instruction in another > plane of similar > characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... > > > > Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it > back and come > and get it...Herb > > On 05/03/2016 > 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > > > > Rick > > > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You > tube at the > link below!!! I am sick!!! Herb > > > > On > 05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard > Girard wrote: > > > > After my experience with the > "Plane from Hell", I > think a additional project should be a "how > to inspect a Kolb > (model). There are some real morons out there when > it comes to > building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes > to selling. > You can have all the flying manuals you want but > if the plane > is poorly built it probably won't fly within > the manual > parameters and a pilot with little skill can find > himself in > real trouble. > > > > Rick Girard > > > > On Tue, May > 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > wrote: > > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: Herb > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was > naturally > worried about a low time pilot....but this > video seems to > indicate that he is doing very well...guide or > no...I > notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned > on the > comments that it was a Herbup to not have > painted the > instrument panel...must have been dozing that > day?? Not > sure what happened to the foam joy stick > grip?? Herb > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill > Berle > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so > long as you can > protect the authors of those tips from > liability or > blame when the s**t hits the fan. > > > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder > but an > experienced "airplane guy", I > believe there is also > a strong need for an improved assembly > manual. I > have written assembly and construction > manuals > professionally, and I have sent the > factory an > e-mail that mentioned this and offered > my services. > I would be very glad to participate in > the assembly > manual rewrite if the factory is > interested. But it > is their decision, and they may not > agree that there > is a need for a better manual.. > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for > light > aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - > winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit > entities > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new > Pilot Guide to > Kolb flying? > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: > > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > > Ever year we have several > members finish their > > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our > group. I > think it > > would be a good thing if those of you > with Kolb > flying > > experience could create a Kolb > Flying Tips > document > > of some sort. I hope to joint the > group of > completed > > projects this summer, and I know the > best think to > do is to > > get more time in a Champ, but I know, > that flying > my Kolb > > will be different than flying the > Champ. So how > about a > > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I > know that there > will > > be differences in every Kolb built > and each model, > but what > > are the average V speeds for each > model? I would > think that > > one of the company owner would have > printed some > of the > > information, but if they have I have > never heard a > reference > > to it. What do you think? > > Thanks as always, I would have > never gotten this > far without > > the support and knowledge of this > group! > > Nick Cassara > > Palmer, Alaska > > PAAQ > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > Forum - > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? > Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn > left. > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Blessed are > the cracked, for they shall let in the > light. Groucho > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Larry Cottrell On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb wrote: > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage > which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have > repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... > To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if > it was not fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife > and kids are last resort!!) Herb > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be open to suggestions. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:53 PM PST US Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Larry Cottrell On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb wrote: > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage > which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have > repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... > To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if > it was not fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife > and kids are last resort!!) Herb > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be open to suggestions. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:54 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? Good advice of course, thank you. When my Firestar is completed I will seek out someone in this area with a two place Kolb and see if I can get some familiarization and indoctrination. I had one brief flight in a Twinstar or Mark 3 many years ago, but it was just a ride with no actual stick time. The speeds, takeoff and landing distances, and general "buoyancy" of that airplane (with two heavy people aboard) seemed about like the Taylorcraft I had at the time. But we did not do any sudden power reductions, and he did not demonstrate anything having to do with the high thrust line, so I do not have any useful experience to compare. As far as the video referenced earlier in this thread.... so it appears that it was indeed the "wingover" maneuver that has caused the discomfort and concern Herb and others are feeling? Was there any other instance of the "overconfidence" or recklessness that I have missed? Once again, what I am hearing is that the guy in the video has 20+ years in Kolbs (almost as much as John and other highly experienced Kolbers), and his wingover maneuver was seen by some as being very reckless. What ELSE happened (besides that wingover) that has people so upset? A comment was made about the over-confidence of the buyer (not the guy flying in the video). What did the buyer do that has people thinking he is being reckless or irresponsible? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 1:17 PM "John Hauck" You are missing somethings. All Kolb models are very maneuverable aircraft. They are a lot of fun to fly. They are not rated for aerobatics, but will do most aerobatic maneuvers with ease. The two most agile models of Kolbs are the Slingshot and the Firefly, because of their short wing span, primarily. The long wing models are slower to role, but, as Homer Kolb explained to me many years ago when I was complaining about how slow they rolled, "Be gentle and the aircraft will do what you want it to do." Many Kolb pilots never experience any maneuver more than straight and level and slow turns. By pushing the limits of the Kolb I learned how to better fly it, especially when I got myself into serious wind and weather problems. One will never know what his Kolb will do unless he pushes out of his comfort zone a little. I find it very disappointing and sad that many Kolb owners think they can fly without instruction and/or indoctrination. We have lost a lot of Kolb people because of ego and stupidity. It is not necessary. I guess it is very similar to jumping in the water over your head and not knowing how to swim, but have heard how, read the manual, jump in and drown. Not recommending anyone do as I do. Simply expressing how I have experienced my Kolbs over the years. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 2:13 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Can someone explain to me what is being discussed here, I'm afraid that I'm not getting something that's important. What I am reading on this discussion forum sounds like it is different than what people are upset or irritated about. I must be missing a big piece of this story. Here is what I am "hearing" on the discussion forum : 1) Herb sold his beautiful Firefly to someone, and 2) that someone (the buyer) allowed someone else (with 20+ years in Kolbs) to fly it for that video, and 3) that highly experienced Kolb pilot did two traditional wingover maneuvers on camera, and 4) the buyer of Herb's Firefly (who was not shown in the video) now needs to be saved before something awful happens to his family. I am NOT being a smart-ass (my usual self), I'm just missing part of the story and I do not understand what specific thing happened that has ruined Herb's day, made him so upset, who crashed the airplane and when, and why he would rather have seen the airplane destroyed. Another thing I think I noticed is that the farm where this video was taken APPEARS to be the same farm where a previous youtube video was done showing the Kolb doing numerous slow takeoffs and landings by a pretty good quality pilot. Like I said, I am probably missing something significant... can someone clue me in? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:44 AM Herb I noticed that and have just chatted with the guy who flew the plane...he said it flew perfectly...no problems at all...and he has 20+ plus years in Kolbs... owns a Fly... Several Kolbs at the field... I then assumed camera angle...but did not think to ask...after his "perfectly" statement... Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!)Herb On 05/03/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Looking at the youtube video, it appears as though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. > > Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not rigged right? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > >Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? >To: kolb-list@matronics.com >Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 AM > > > > > > > Guys ...after learning that the new owner was not the >one flying the > Firefly..and seeing the latest post on the youtube >site... > > > > this is my email to the owner....can I do more?? >Herb > > > > > > I understand that you were not the one flying the >Firefly in that > video? > > > > I cannot emphasize enough...this plane will kill you >dead....Kolbs > have a very sharp stall!! Typically getting too slow on >landing and > dropping a wing and hitting the ground Very Bad!!! >If you are > lucky , it will mush in and bend the landing gear and >bend the > frame...but you will still get something broken.... > > > > You must get some dual instruction in another >plane of similar > characteristics..!! Mark III or Firestar II... > > > > Please do not orphan those kids!!! I will buy it >back and come > and get it...Herb > > On 05/03/2016 >11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > > > > Rick > > > > My day is ruined....check the latest comment on You >tube at the > link below!!! I am sick!!!Herb > > > > On >05/03/2016 10:31 AM, Richard > Girard wrote: > > > > After my experience with the >"Plane from Hell", I > think a additional project should be a "how >to inspect a Kolb > (model). There are some real morons out there when >it comes to > building and absolutely unscrupulous when it comes >to selling. > You can have all the flying manuals you want but >if the plane > is poorly built it probably won't fly within >the manual > parameters and a pilot with little skill can find >himself in > real trouble. > > > > Rick Girard > > > > On Tue, May >3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > wrote: > > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: Herb > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I was >naturally > worried about a low time pilot....but this >video seems to > indicate that he is doing very well...guide or >no...I > notice he installed a BRS...:-) I mentioned >on the > comments that it was a Herbup to not have >painted the > instrument panel...must have been dozing that >day?? Not > sure what happened to the foam joy stick >grip?? Herb > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill >Berle > > > > Great idea on the piloting tips, so >long as you can > protect the authors of those tips from >liability or > blame when the s**t hits the fan. > > > > On a similar note, as a new Kolb builder >but an > experienced "airplane guy", I >believe there is also > a strong need for an improved assembly >manual. I > have written assembly and construction >manuals > professionally, and I have sent the >factory an > e-mail that mentioned this and offered >my services. > I would be very glad to participate in >the assembly > manual rewrite if the factory is >interested. But it > is their decision, and they may not >agree that there > is a need for a better manual.. > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for >light > aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - > winning proposals for non-profit and >for-profit > entities > > > > >-------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: How about a new >Pilot Guide to > Kolb flying? > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Monday, May 2, 2016, 9:26 PM > > --> Kolb-List message posted >by: > > Nick Cassara > > Kolbers, > > Ever year we have several >members finish their > > projects, or buy a Kolb and joint our >group. I > think it > > would be a good thing if those of you >with Kolb > flying > > experience could create a Kolb >Flying Tips > document > > of some sort. I hope to joint the >group of > completed > > projects this summer, and I know the >best think to > do is to > > get more time in a Champ, but I know, >that flying > my Kolb > > will be different than flying the >Champ. So how > about a > > dos and dont of fly the Kolb. I >know that there > will > > be differences in every Kolb built >and each model, > but what > > are the average V speeds for each >model? I would > think that > > one of the company owner would have >printed some > of the > > information, but if they have I have >never heard a > reference > > to it. What do you think? > > Thanks as always, I would have >never gotten this > far without > > the support and knowledge of this >group! > > Nick Cassara > > Palmer, Alaska > > PAAQ > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > Forum - > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? >Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn >left. > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" >target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" >target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" >target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Blessed are > the cracked, for they shall let in the >light.Groucho > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- >Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >red light and turn left. > > > > > -- >Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >red light and turn left. > > > > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan message...to him... as thick as I could , no holds barred!! I feel as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... :-( Herb On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb > wrote: > > > > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did > considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in > that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is > hardly noticeable... > To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been > great if it was not fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets > hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its > back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? > Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what > he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that > would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be > open to suggestions. > Larry > > > -- > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant > of others./ > / > / > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending./ -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb Bill His experience was in flying powered parachutes!! and he put it over on its back.....If he had gotten in the air...witnesses said that he would be dead or severely injured.. Lucky as it was... Looking at the flying video again... I think the pilot was just fine with his flying...more hot doggy than me...but lots more experience too...also...a ballistic chute has been installed.. :-) Might have added some confidence flying a newly built firefly... :-) Normally, test flying a new plane,,,I hold my breath for the few minutes I am in the air....close my eyes and land...something on that order! :-) Our planes are strong...and this guy walked away...so did the warp drive prop....:-) Herb On 05/03/2016 03:59 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Good advice of course, thank you. When my Firestar is completed I will seek out someone in this area with a two place Kolb and see if I can get some familiarization and indoctrination. > > I had one brief flight in a Twinstar or Mark 3 many years ago, but it was just a ride with no actual stick time. The speeds, takeoff and landing distances, and general "buoyancy" of that airplane (with two heavy people aboard) seemed about like the Taylorcraft I had at the time. But we did not do any sudden power reductions, and he did not demonstrate anything having to do with the high thrust line, so I do not have any useful experience to compare. > > As far as the video referenced earlier in this thread.... so it appears that it was indeed the "wingover" maneuver that has caused the discomfort and concern Herb and others are feeling? Was there any other instance of the "overconfidence" or recklessness that I have missed? > > Once again, what I am hearing is that the guy in the video has 20+ years in Kolbs (almost as much as John and other highly experienced Kolbers), and his wingover maneuver was seen by some as being very reckless. What ELSE happened (besides that wingover) that has people so upset? A comment was made about the over-confidence of the buyer (not the guy flying in the video). What did the buyer do that has people thinking he is being reckless or irresponsible? > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 1:17 PM > > "John Hauck" > > You are missing somethings. > > All Kolb models are very maneuverable aircraft. They > are a lot of fun to fly. They are not rated for > aerobatics, but will do most aerobatic maneuvers with ease. > > The two most agile models of Kolbs are the Slingshot and the > Firefly, because of their short wing span, primarily. > The long wing models are slower to role, but, as Homer Kolb > explained to me many years ago when I was complaining about > how slow they rolled, "Be gentle and the aircraft will do > what you want it to do." > > Many Kolb pilots never experience any maneuver more than > straight and level and slow turns. By pushing the > limits of the Kolb I learned how to better fly it, > especially when I got myself into serious wind and weather > problems. One will never know what his Kolb will do > unless he pushes out of his comfort zone a little. > > I find it very disappointing and sad that many Kolb owners > think they can fly without instruction and/or > indoctrination. We have lost a lot of Kolb people > because of ego and stupidity. It is not > necessary. I guess it is very similar to jumping in > the water over your head and not knowing how to swim, but > have heard how, read the manual, jump in and drown. > > Not recommending anyone do as I do. Simply expressing > how I have experienced my Kolbs over the years. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 2:13 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > > Can someone explain to me what is being discussed here, I'm > afraid that I'm not getting something that's important. What > I am reading on this discussion forum sounds like it is > different than what people are upset or irritated about. I > must be missing a big piece of this story. > > Here is what I am "hearing" on the discussion forum : > > 1) Herb sold his beautiful Firefly to someone, and > 2) that someone (the buyer) allowed someone else (with 20+ > years in Kolbs) to fly it for that video, and > 3) that highly experienced Kolb pilot did two traditional > wingover maneuvers on camera, and > 4) the buyer of Herb's Firefly (who was not shown in the > video) now needs to be saved before something awful happens > to his family. > > I am NOT being a smart-ass (my usual self), I'm just > missing part of the story and I do not understand what > specific thing happened that has ruined Herb's day, made him > so upset, who crashed the airplane and when, and why he > would rather have seen the airplane destroyed. > > Another thing I think I noticed is that the farm where this > video was taken APPEARS to be the same farm where a previous > youtube video was done showing the Kolb doing numerous slow > takeoffs and landings by a pretty good quality pilot. > > Like I said, I am probably missing something significant... > can someone clue me in? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance > upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for > non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb > wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 11:44 AM > > Herb > > I noticed that and have just chatted with the guy who > flew the plane...he said it flew perfectly...no > problems at all...and he has 20+ plus years in > Kolbs... owns a Fly... Several Kolbs at the field... > > I then assumed camera angle...but did > not think to ask...after his "perfectly" > statement... > > Up shot...the new owner put it on > its back..and did considerable damage which the > club members (a lot of expertise in that > club!!) have > repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly > noticeable... > To be honest, after all that I have > heard,, it would have been great if it was not > fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help > save this guy.... lets hope.... > (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb > > On 05/03/2016 12:56 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Looking at the youtube video, it appears as > though the pilot is having to hold the stick 10 > degrees to the right for "normal" level flight. > > > > Experienced Kolb pilots - is this correct? Is this > just camera parallax? Is this particular airplane not > rigged right? > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & > performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb > wrote: > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 9:17 > AM > > > > > > > > > Guys ...after learning that the new > owner was not the > one flying > the > Firefly..and > seeing the latest post on the youtube > > site... > > > > > > > > this is my > email > to the owner....can I do more?? > > Herb > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that you > were not the one flying the > > Firefly in that > > video? > > > > > > > > I cannot emphasize > enough...this plane will kill you > > dead....Kolbs > > have a very sharp > stall!! Typically getting too slow on > > landing and > > dropping a wing and > hitting the ground Very Bad!!! > > If you are > > lucky , it will mush > in > and bend the landing gear and > > bend the > > frame...but you will > still get something broken.... > > > > > > > > You must > get some dual instruction in another > > plane of similar > > > characteristics..!! Mark III or > Firestar II... > > > > > > > > Please do not > orphan those kids!!! I will buy it > > back and come > > and get it...Herb > > > > On 05/03/2016 > > 11:04 AM, Herb wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > My day > is > ruined....check the latest comment on You > > tube at the > > link below!!! I am > sick!!! Herb > > > > > > On > 05/03/2016 > 10:31 AM, Richard > > Girard > wrote: > > > > > > > > After my > experience with the > > "Plane from Hell", I > > > think a additional project should be a > "how > to inspect a Kolb > > > (model). There are some real morons out > there when > it comes to > > > building and absolutely unscrupulous > when it comes > to selling. > > > You > can have all the flying manuals you want but > > if the plane > > is poorly built > it probably won't fly within > the > manual > > parameters and a pilot with little skill > can find > himself in > > real trouble. > > > > > > > > > Rick Girard > > > > > > > > > On > Tue, May > > 3, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Herb > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > --> > > > Kolb-List message posted by: Herb > > > > > > > > > > When I sold the Firefly last month...I > was > naturally > > worried about a low time pilot....but > this > video seems to > > indicate that he is doing very > well...guide or > > no...I > > > notice he installed a BRS...:-) I > mentioned > > on the > > > comments that it was a Herbup to not > have > painted the > > instrument panel...must have been dozing > that > day?? Not > > sure what happened to the foam joy stick > > grip?? Herb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWZ4smwWOg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2016 12:49 AM, Bill Berle > wrote: > > > > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message > posted by: Bill > > Berle > > > > > > > > > > > Great idea on the > piloting tips, so > > long as you can > > > protect the authors of those > tips from > > liability or > > > blame when the s**t hits the > fan. > > > > > > > > > > > On a similar note, as a new > Kolb builder > > but an > > > experienced "airplane guy", > I > > believe there is also > > > a strong need for an > improved assembly > > manual. I > > > have written assembly and > construction > > manuals > > > professionally, and I have > sent the > > factory an > > > e-mail that mentioned this > and offered > > my services. > > > I would be very glad to > participate in > > the assembly > > > manual rewrite if the > factory is > > interested. But it > > > is their decision, and they > may not > > agree that there > > > is a need for a better > manual.. > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > > > > www.ezflaphandle.com > > > - safety & performance > upgrade for > > light > > > aircraft > > > > > www.grantstar.net > > - > > > winning proposals for > non-profit and > > for-profit > > > entities > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > > On Mon, 5/2/16, Nick Cassara > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Kolb-List: > How about a new > > Pilot Guide to > > > Kolb flying? > > > > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > > > Date: Monday, May 2, > 2016, 9:26 PM > > > > > --> > Kolb-List message posted > > by: > > > > > Nick Cassara > > > > Kolbers, > > > > > Ever year we > have several > > members finish their > > > > > projects, or buy a > Kolb and joint our > > group. I > > > think it > > > > > would be a good thing > if those of you > > with Kolb > > > flying > > > > > experience could > create a Kolb > > Flying Tips > > > document > > > > > of some sort. I hope > to joint the > > group of > > > completed > > > > > projects this summer, > and I know the > > best think to > > > do is to > > > > > get more time in a > Champ, but I know, > > that flying > > > my Kolb > > > > > will be different > than flying the > > Champ. So how > > > about a > > > > > dos and dont of > fly the Kolb. I > > know that there > > > will > > > > > be differences in > every Kolb built > > and each model, > > > but what > > > > > are the average V > speeds for each > > model? I would > > > think that > > > > > one of the company > owner would have > > printed some > > > of the > > > > > information, but if > they have I have > > never heard a > > > reference > > > > > to it. What do you > think? > > > > > Thanks as > always, I would have > > never gotten this > > > far without > > > > > the support and > knowledge of this > > group! > > > > > Nick Cassara > > > > > Palmer, Alaska > > > > > PAAQ > > > > > Kolbra Kit #1 > > > > > > > Forum - > > > > > - > MATRONICS WEB > FORUMS - > > > > > MATRONICS LIST WIKI > - > > > > > List Contribution Web > Site - > > > > > > > -Matt > > > > > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? > > Sure...Mr. > > > Foster...Third red light and turn > > left. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > > > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > > > > ========== > > > > > FORUMS - > > > > > eferrer" > > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > ========== > > > > > WIKI - > > > > > errer" > > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > > > > ========== > > > > > b Site - > > > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Blessed are > > > the cracked, for they > shall let in the > > light. Groucho > > > Marx > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? > Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > > red light and turn left. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? > Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > > red light and turn left. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn left. > > > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:03 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? I only have control over one person, me, and not all the time. Certainly do not have control over anyone else. If I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no responsibility or control of what he or she may do with it. Hope your customer does not harm or kill himself. However, if he does, you have no control over that. He will not be the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks are built that way. The man has been warned. What else can you do? I don't know. One thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well and did not fall out of the sky, nor did the engine quit. BTW: I like the subject line. ;-)( john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan message...to him... as thick as I could , no holds barred!! I feel as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... :-( Herb On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb wrote: Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be open to suggestions. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:09 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? There is no accident or "over on its back" shown in that video... what "accident" is everyone talking about? What did the buyer do? I am seriously missing some big part of this story that nobody is mentioning. Now I hear that a video of something else is restricted or top secret.... what happened in this video? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 2:50 PM #yiv4496894905 #yiv4496894905 -- _filtered #yiv4496894905 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv4496894905 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} #yiv4496894905 #yiv4496894905 p.yiv4496894905MsoNormal, #yiv4496894905 li.yiv4496894905MsoNormal, #yiv4496894905 div.yiv4496894905MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4496894905 a:link, #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4496894905 a:visited, #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv4496894905 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv4496894905 .yiv4496894905MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv4496894905 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv4496894905 div.yiv4496894905WordSection1 {} #yiv4496894905 I only have control over one person, me, and not all the time. Certainly do not have control over anyone else. If I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no responsibility or control of what he or she may do with it. Hope your customer does not harm or kill himself. However, if he does, you have no control over that. He will not be the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks are built that way. The man has been warned. What else can you do? I don't know. One thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well and did not fall out of the sky, nor did the engine quit. BTW: I like the subject line. ;-)( john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan message...to him... as thick as I could , no holds barred!! I feel as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... :-( Herb On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be open to suggestions.Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing on my mind...! You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 years in Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... I called him and he said pretty much the same.... May have missed your calling , John! did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine dead when the plane went over....with no damage? Father....a miracle?? :-) Herb On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > I only have control over one person, me, and not all the time. > > Certainly do not have control over anyone else. > > If I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no responsibility or > control of what he or she may do with it. Hope your customer does not > harm or kill himself. However, if he does, you have no control over > that. He will not be the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks > are built that way. > > The man has been warned. What else can you do? I don't know. > > One thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well and did not fall > out of the sky, nor did the engine quit. > > BTW: I like the subject line. ;-)( > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > *From:*owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Herb > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the > accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask > for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am > looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw > it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are > necessary for take off , let alone landing! > > I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan message...to him... as > thick as I could , no holds barred!! > > I feel as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... :-( > Herb > > On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb > wrote: > > > > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did > considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in > that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is > hardly noticeable... > To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been > great if it was not fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets > hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on > its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you > think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell > a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of > guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he > will now be open to suggestions. > > Larry > > > -- > > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are > intolerant of others./ > > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my > email address before sending./ > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:12 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? Herb: I understand Sky King put the FF on its back, but have not seen the video. Not necessary to see the video though. I put my brand new FS on its back when the 447 failed and I landed in a cotton field. I know what it looks like from the driver's seat. My Dad was a Baptist preacher. I never wanted to be one. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing on my mind...! You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 years in Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... I called him and he said pretty much the same.... May have missed your calling , John! did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine dead when the plane went over....with no damage? Father....a miracle?? :-) Herb k? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Firefly Accident...too late now...! From: Herb I am a bad communicator...at times.... tend to use verbal short hand...:-) The you tube video is of the maiden flight of the Firefly I built(pretty much in the quick build stage actually) ...with a long time glider /Kolb pilot at the controls ...could be why he liked wind here up.?..etc..? He belongs to my old Soaring club...St. Louis Soaring Assn. at Highland Winett airport...just south of I-70 east of St. Louis..near Highland ,Ill.. the second vid is of the accident and I have no permission to show it... That is the Buyer accident... One or Two of the Kolb guys at the field...via email predicted just what would happen before the flight ...given the fact of no experience...and others cautioned him about the quirks of Pushers and Kolbs specifically...no one gave him a chance of a successful flight...but he would not listen...! The vid showed someone with no instincts with rudder and aileron trying to fly a Firefly off at half power....! If I get permission, I will link to it...Herb On 05/03/2016 05:20 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > There is no accident or "over on its back" shown in that video... what "accident" is everyone talking about? > > What did the buyer do? > > I am seriously missing some big part of this story that nobody is mentioning. Now I hear that a video of something else is restricted or top secret.... what happened in this video? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 2:50 PM > > #yiv4496894905 > #yiv4496894905 -- > > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 > 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 > 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} > #yiv4496894905 > #yiv4496894905 p.yiv4496894905MsoNormal, #yiv4496894905 > li.yiv4496894905MsoNormal, #yiv4496894905 > div.yiv4496894905MsoNormal > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv4496894905 a:link, #yiv4496894905 > span.yiv4496894905MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv4496894905 a:visited, #yiv4496894905 > span.yiv4496894905MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv4496894905 pre > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905HTMLPreformattedChar > {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} > #yiv4496894905 span.yiv4496894905EmailStyle19 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv4496894905 .yiv4496894905MsoChpDefault > {font-size:10.0pt;} > _filtered #yiv4496894905 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > #yiv4496894905 div.yiv4496894905WordSection1 > {} > #yiv4496894905 I only have control over one > person, me, and not all the time. Certainly do not have control over > anyone else. If I sell an airplane to an > individual, I have no responsibility or control of what he > or she may do with it. Hope your customer does not harm or > kill himself. However, if he does, you have no control > over that. He will not be the first, nor will he be the > last. Some folks are built that way. The man has been warned. What > else can you do? I don't know. One thing for sure, the airplane > seems to fly well and did not fall out of the sky, nor did > the engine quit. BTW: I like the subject line. > ;-)( john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf > Of Herb > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, > 2016 4:24 PM > To: > kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: > Kolb-List: snow what??? I am in contact with another > guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the > test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is > restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am > looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others > who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts > that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! > > I sent the wife and kids > ...widow/orphan message...to him... as thick as I could , no > holds barred!! > > I feel > as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... > :-( Herb On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry > Cottrell wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 > PM, Herb > wrote:--> Kolb-List > message posted by: Herb > > > Up > shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did > considerable damage which the club members (a lot of > expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that > the repair is hardly noticeable... > To be > honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been > great if it was not fixable!!! :-( > > We have developed a plan to help save this > guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) > Herb------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm not sure what you are > so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he > should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing > like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy > what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of > guy's that would help him put it back together. I am > sure that he will now be open to > suggestions.Larry > > > -- > The older I > get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of > others. If you forward this email, > or any part of it, please remove my email address before > sending. > > -- Signature text; Fort > Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn > left. > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:09 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? Any English speaking people here? This may be the fourth or fifth time I've asked... what exactly happened that got everyone so !)$(% upset at the new owner of Herb's Firefly? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 3:34 PM I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing on my mind...! You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 years in Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... I called him and he said pretty much the same.... May have missed your calling , John! did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine dead when the plane went over....with no damage? Father....a miracle?? :-) Herb On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, John Hauck wrote: #yiv5329024951 #yiv5329024951 -- _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} #yiv5329024951 #yiv5329024951 p.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 li.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv5329024951 a:link, #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv5329024951 a:visited, #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv5329024951 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv5329024951 .yiv5329024951MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv5329024951 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951WordSection1 {} #yiv5329024951 I only have control over one person, me, and not all the time. Certainly do not have control over anyone else. If I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no responsibility or control of what he or she may do with it. Hope your customer does not harm or kill himself. However, if he does, you have no control over that. He will not be the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks are built that way. The man has been warned. What else can you do? I don't know. One thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well and did not fall out of the sky, nor did the engine quit. BTW: I like the subject line. ;-)( john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan message...to him... as thick as I could , no holds barred!! I feel as if I am witnessing someone's death in slow motion... :-( Herb On 05/03/2016 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Herb wrote: --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb Up shot...the new owner put it on its back..and did considerable damage which the club members (a lot of expertise in that club!!) have repaired..to the extent that the repair is hardly noticeable... To be honest, after all that I have heard,, it would have been great if it was not fixable!!! :-( We have developed a plan to help save this guy.... lets hope.... (wife and kids are last resort!!) Herb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'm not sure what you are so worried about. If the guy had it on its back already, he should be getting the message, don't you think? Nothing like a little personal up close experience to tell a guy what he does and does not know. Sounds like a great bunch of guy's that would help him put it back together. I am sure that he will now be open to suggestions. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Larry Cottrell There is no accident or "over on its back" shown in that video... what "accident" is everyone talking about? What did the buyer do? I am seriously missing some big part of this story that nobody is mentioning. Now I hear that a video of something else is restricted or top secret.... what happened in this video? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- perhaps you are not getting all the messages. Sometimes that happens, no one has so far explained why. I subscribe to the individual messages and the Digest as well. That way I can see if I am missing something. It just sometimes happens. This is apparently what you are missing- Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? I am in contact with another guy on the field who witnessed the accident and who did the test flight,sent me the video, (do not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is not hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that have been exchanged by several others who saw it...most are discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are necessary for take off , let alone landing! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:16 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re:great white hunter... From: Herb I will post if I get approval...Its on you tube also.. Generally wrecking on take off...gets no points...but wrecking upon landing in an "invented" 40 mile an hour direct cross wind is something to talk about...:-) the taxi way starts to look good at that point! 20 years flying all kinds of aircraft in Tanzania, getting shot at, harvesting meat on the plains, speaking Swahili...you may have missed your calling...!! :-) Herb On 05/03/2016 05:51 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > Herb: > > I understand Sky King put the FF on its back, but have not seen the video. > > Not necessary to see the video though. I put my brand new FS on its > back when the 447 failed and I landed in a cotton field. I know what > it looks like from the driver's seat. > > My Dad was a Baptist preacher. I never wanted to be one. > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > *From:*owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Herb > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 5:35 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing on my mind...! > > You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 years in > Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... > > I called him and he said pretty much the same.... > > May have missed your calling , John! > > did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine dead when the > plane went over....with no damage? Father....a miracle?? :-) Herb > > k? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:12:59 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: firefly accident in Ill.. From: Herb OOPs....in todays climate...asking for English will get one a visit from the justice dept.... :-) anyway...tried to explain in further emails and Larry did a good synopsis...Herb(speak Hillbilly to me) On 05/03/2016 05:59 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Any English speaking people here? > > This may be the fourth or fifth time I've asked... what exactly happened that got everyone so !)$(% upset at the new owner of Herb's Firefly? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 3:34 PM > > > I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing > on my > mind...! > > > > You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 > years in > Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... > > > > I called him and he said pretty much the same.... > > > > May have missed your calling , John! > > > > did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine > dead when the > plane went over....with no damage? Father....a > miracle?? :-) Herb > > > > > On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, > John Hauck > wrote: > > > > #yiv5329024951 > #yiv5329024951 -- > > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 > 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 > 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} > #yiv5329024951 > #yiv5329024951 p.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 > li.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 > div.yiv5329024951MsoNormal > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 a:link, #yiv5329024951 > span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv5329024951 a:visited, #yiv5329024951 > span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv5329024951 pre > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951HTMLPreformattedChar > {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951EmailStyle19 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv5329024951 .yiv5329024951MsoChpDefault > {font-size:10.0pt;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951WordSection1 > {} > #yiv5329024951 > I > only have control over one person, me, and not > all the time. > > Certainly > do not have control over anyone else. > > > If > I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no > responsibility or control of what he or she may > do with it. > Hope your customer does not harm or kill > himself. However, > if he does, you have no control over that. He > will not be > the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks > are built > that way. > > The > man has been warned. What else can you do? I > don't know. > > One > thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well > and did not > fall out of the sky, nor did the engine > quit. > > BTW: > I like the subject line. ;-)( > > > > john > h > mkIII > Titus, > Alabama > > > > > > > From: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On > Behalf Of Herb > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 > PM > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow > what??? > > > > I am in > contact with another guy on the field who > witnessed the > accident and who did the test flight,sent me the > video, (do > not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is > not > hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that > have been > exchanged by several others who saw it...most are > discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are > necessary for > take off , let alone landing! > > > > I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan > message...to him... > as thick as I could , no holds barred!! > > > > I feel as if I am witnessing someone's > death in slow > motion... :-( Herb > > On 05/03/2016 > 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, > May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, > Herb > wrote: > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: > Herb > > > > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its > back..and did > considerable damage which the club members > (a lot of > expertise in that club!!) have > repaired..to the extent > that the repair is hardly noticeable... > > To be honest, after all that I have > heard,, it would > have been great if it was not fixable!!! > :-( > > > > We have developed a plan to help save > this guy.... > lets hope.... (wife and kids are last > resort!!) Herb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > I'm > not sure what you are so > worried about. If the guy had it on its > back > already, he should be getting the > message, don't you > think? Nothing like a little personal up > close > experience to tell a guy what he does > and does not > know. Sounds like a great bunch of > guy's that would > help him put it back together. I am sure > that he > will now be open to suggestions. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > The older I > get, the less > tolerant I am of those who > are > intolerant of > others. > > > > > > If you forward this > email, or any part of it, > please remove > my email address before > sending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn left. > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:46:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? From: Herb Bill Just in case...this vid shows the maiden flight of the Firefly... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY&feature=youtu.be and viewing it again...I see nothing in the maneuvers that alarm....he did a hands off...and I noticed a slight nose down...which is good...he did some slow flight prior to landing and some hot dogging of sorts for the audience ...which is not in my repertoire but fine in our little birds... Makes me want to try them though... :-) Ain't dead yet!! Herb On 05/03/2016 05:59 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Any English speaking people here? > > This may be the fourth or fifth time I've asked... what exactly happened that got everyone so !)$(% upset at the new owner of Herb's Firefly? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 3:34 PM > > > I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing > on my > mind...! > > > > You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 > years in > Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... > > > > I called him and he said pretty much the same.... > > > > May have missed your calling , John! > > > > did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine > dead when the > plane went over....with no damage? Father....a > miracle?? :-) Herb > > > > > On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, > John Hauck > wrote: > > > > #yiv5329024951 > #yiv5329024951 -- > > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 > 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 > 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} > #yiv5329024951 > #yiv5329024951 p.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 > li.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 > div.yiv5329024951MsoNormal > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 a:link, #yiv5329024951 > span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv5329024951 a:visited, #yiv5329024951 > span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv5329024951 pre > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951HTMLPreformattedChar > {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} > #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951EmailStyle19 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv5329024951 .yiv5329024951MsoChpDefault > {font-size:10.0pt;} > _filtered #yiv5329024951 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951WordSection1 > {} > #yiv5329024951 > I > only have control over one person, me, and not > all the time. > > Certainly > do not have control over anyone else. > > > If > I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no > responsibility or control of what he or she may > do with it. > Hope your customer does not harm or kill > himself. However, > if he does, you have no control over that. He > will not be > the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks > are built > that way. > > The > man has been warned. What else can you do? I > don't know. > > One > thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well > and did not > fall out of the sky, nor did the engine > quit. > > BTW: > I like the subject line. ;-)( > > > > john > h > mkIII > Titus, > Alabama > > > > > > > From: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On > Behalf Of Herb > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 > PM > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow > what??? > > > > I am in > contact with another guy on the field who > witnessed the > accident and who did the test flight,sent me the > video, (do > not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is > not > hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that > have been > exchanged by several others who saw it...most are > discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are > necessary for > take off , let alone landing! > > > > I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan > message...to him... > as thick as I could , no holds barred!! > > > > I feel as if I am witnessing someone's > death in slow > motion... :-( Herb > > On 05/03/2016 > 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, > May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, > Herb > wrote: > --> > Kolb-List message posted by: > Herb > > > > > > Up shot...the new owner put it on its > back..and did > considerable damage which the club members > (a lot of > expertise in that club!!) have > repaired..to the extent > that the repair is hardly noticeable... > > To be honest, after all that I have > heard,, it would > have been great if it was not fixable!!! > :-( > > > > We have developed a plan to help save > this guy.... > lets hope.... (wife and kids are last > resort!!) Herb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > I'm > not sure what you are so > worried about. If the guy had it on its > back > already, he should be getting the > message, don't you > think? Nothing like a little personal up > close > experience to tell a guy what he does > and does not > know. Sounds like a great bunch of > guy's that would > help him put it back together. I am sure > that he > will now be open to suggestions. > > > Larry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > The older I > get, the less > tolerant I am of those who > are > intolerant of > others. > > > > > > If you forward this > email, or any part of it, > please remove > my email address before > sending. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. > Foster...Third red light and turn left. > > > > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third > red light and turn left. > > > > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:16 PM PST US From: "pcking" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? That the pilot flies sailplanes could explain what you see as extreme maneuvers in the video. A 45 degree bank is normal in a sailplane when you are trying to fly in the core of a thermal. A pullup to wings vertical is a fast way to reverse direction when you have flown out of the core. This pilot found himself in a plane with a crisp roll rate and enjoyed it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 7:45 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > Bill > > Just in case...this vid shows the maiden flight of the Firefly... > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY&feature=youtu.be > > > and viewing it again...I see nothing in the maneuvers that alarm....he > did a hands off...and I noticed a slight nose down...which is good...he > did some slow flight prior to landing and some hot dogging of sorts for > the audience ...which is not in my repertoire but fine in our little > birds... Makes me want to try them though... :-) Ain't dead yet!! Herb > > > On 05/03/2016 05:59 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >> >> Any English speaking people here? >> >> This may be the fourth or fifth time I've asked... what exactly happened >> that got everyone so !)$(% upset at the new owner of Herb's Firefly? >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and >> for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 3:34 PM >> I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing >> on my >> mind...! >> You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 >> years in >> Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... >> I called him and he said pretty much the same.... >> May have missed your calling , John! >> did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine >> dead when the >> plane went over....with no damage? Father....a >> miracle?? :-) Herb >> On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, >> John Hauck >> wrote: >> #yiv5329024951 >> #yiv5329024951 -- >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 >> 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 >> 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} >> #yiv5329024951 >> #yiv5329024951 p.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 >> li.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 >> div.yiv5329024951MsoNormal >> {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} >> #yiv5329024951 a:link, #yiv5329024951 >> span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlink >> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv5329024951 a:visited, #yiv5329024951 >> span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlinkFollowed >> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >> #yiv5329024951 pre >> {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} >> #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951HTMLPreformattedChar >> {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} >> #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951EmailStyle19 >> {color:#1F497D;} >> #yiv5329024951 .yiv5329024951MsoChpDefault >> {font-size:10.0pt;} >> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} >> #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951WordSection1 >> {} >> #yiv5329024951 >> I >> only have control over one person, me, and not >> all the time. >> Certainly >> do not have control over anyone else. >> If >> I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no >> responsibility or control of what he or she may >> do with it. >> Hope your customer does not harm or kill >> himself. However, >> if he does, you have no control over that. He >> will not be >> the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks >> are built >> that way. >> The >> man has been warned. What else can you do? I >> don't know. >> One >> thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well >> and did not >> fall out of the sky, nor did the engine >> quit. >> BTW: >> I like the subject line. ;-)( >> john >> h >> mkIII >> Titus, >> Alabama >> From: >> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On >> Behalf Of Herb >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 >> PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow >> what??? >> I am in >> contact with another guy on the field who >> witnessed the >> accident and who did the test flight,sent me the >> video, (do >> not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is >> not >> hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that >> have been >> exchanged by several others who saw it...most are >> discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are >> necessary for >> take off , let alone landing! >> I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan >> message...to him... >> as thick as I could , no holds barred!! >> I feel as if I am witnessing someone's >> death in slow >> motion... :-( Herb >> On 05/03/2016 >> 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell >> wrote: >> On Tue, >> May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, >> Herb >> wrote: >> --> >> Kolb-List message posted by: >> Herb >> Up shot...the new owner put it on its >> back..and did >> considerable damage which the club members >> (a lot of >> expertise in that club!!) have >> repaired..to the extent >> that the repair is hardly noticeable... >> To be honest, after all that I have >> heard,, it would >> have been great if it was not fixable!!! >> :-( >> We have developed a plan to help save >> this guy.... >> lets hope.... (wife and kids are last >> resort!!) Herb >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> I'm >> not sure what you are so >> worried about. If the guy had it on its >> back >> already, he should be getting the >> message, don't you >> think? Nothing like a little personal up >> close >> experience to tell a guy what he does >> and does not >> know. Sounds like a great bunch of >> guy's that would >> help him put it back together. I am sure >> that he >> will now be open to suggestions. >> Larry >> -- >> The older I >> get, the less >> tolerant I am of those who >> are >> intolerant of >> others. >> If you forward this >> email, or any part of it, >> please remove >> my email address before >> sending. >> -- >> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. >> Foster...Third red light and turn left. >> -- >> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >> red light and turn left. >> >> >> >> >> > > -- > Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and > turn left. > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:57 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: ground aerobatics... From: Herb Seems that Herb cannot get anything right today...been that kind of day....!! anyhow...the Test flight video of the Firefly(for those of you who have been following this saga) was the second flight...The same guy,experienced Kolb owner, flew a no video ,by the book first flight...testing trim, stall so on... Satisfied the strapped on the camera and did the you tube flight....and the third flight was the owner flipping the plane on its back.. private , non accessible video at this time.. clear as mud? Herb On 05/03/2016 07:58 PM, pcking wrote: > > > That the pilot flies sailplanes could explain what you see as extreme > maneuvers in the video. A 45 degree bank is normal in a sailplane when > you are trying to fly in the core of a thermal. A pullup to wings > vertical is a fast way to reverse direction when you have flown out of > the core. This pilot found himself in a plane with a crisp roll rate > and enjoyed it. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herb" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? > > >> >> Bill >> >> Just in case...this vid shows the maiden flight of the Firefly... >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmmXDbhcTwY&feature=youtu.be >> >> >> and viewing it again...I see nothing in the maneuvers that >> alarm....he did a hands off...and I noticed a slight nose >> down...which is good...he did some slow flight prior to landing and >> some hot dogging of sorts for the audience ...which is not in my >> repertoire but fine in our little birds... Makes me want to try >> them though... :-) Ain't dead yet!! Herb >> >> >> >> On 05/03/2016 05:59 PM, Bill Berle wrote: >>> >>> Any English speaking people here? >>> >>> This may be the fourth or fifth time I've asked... what exactly >>> happened that got everyone so !)$(% upset at the new owner of Herb's >>> Firefly? >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >>> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and >>> for-profit entities >>> >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> On Tue, 5/3/16, Herb wrote: >>> >>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow what??? >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Date: Tuesday, May 3, 2016, 3:34 PM >>> I have been so upset that subject line is the last thing >>> on my >>> mind...! >>> You think like my Southern Baptist Minister...flew 20 >>> years in >>> Tanzania...supporting the ministry over there... >>> I called him and he said pretty much the same.... >>> May have missed your calling , John! >>> did you notice that the Warp prop stopped the engine >>> dead when the >>> plane went over....with no damage? Father....a >>> miracle?? :-) Herb >>> On 05/03/2016 04:50 PM, >>> John Hauck >>> wrote: >>> #yiv5329024951 >>> #yiv5329024951 -- >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 >>> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 >>> 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 >>> 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} >>> #yiv5329024951 >>> #yiv5329024951 p.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 >>> li.yiv5329024951MsoNormal, #yiv5329024951 >>> div.yiv5329024951MsoNormal >>> {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} >>> #yiv5329024951 a:link, #yiv5329024951 >>> span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlink >>> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} >>> #yiv5329024951 a:visited, #yiv5329024951 >>> span.yiv5329024951MsoHyperlinkFollowed >>> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} >>> #yiv5329024951 pre >>> {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} >>> #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951HTMLPreformattedChar >>> {font-family:Consolas;color:black;} >>> #yiv5329024951 span.yiv5329024951EmailStyle19 >>> {color:#1F497D;} >>> #yiv5329024951 .yiv5329024951MsoChpDefault >>> {font-size:10.0pt;} >>> _filtered #yiv5329024951 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} >>> #yiv5329024951 div.yiv5329024951WordSection1 >>> {} >>> #yiv5329024951 >>> I >>> only have control over one person, me, and not >>> all the time. >>> Certainly >>> do not have control over anyone else. >>> If >>> I sell an airplane to an individual, I have no >>> responsibility or control of what he or she may >>> do with it. >>> Hope your customer does not harm or kill >>> himself. However, >>> if he does, you have no control over that. He >>> will not be >>> the first, nor will he be the last. Some folks >>> are built >>> that way. >>> The >>> man has been warned. What else can you do? I >>> don't know. >>> One >>> thing for sure, the airplane seems to fly well >>> and did not >>> fall out of the sky, nor did the engine >>> quit. >>> BTW: >>> I like the subject line. ;-)( >>> john >>> h >>> mkIII >>> Titus, >>> Alabama >>> From: >>> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Herb >>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:24 >>> PM >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: snow >>> what??? >>> I am in >>> contact with another guy on the field who >>> witnessed the >>> accident and who did the test flight,sent me the >>> video, (do >>> not ask for it is restricted.) ...and he is >>> not >>> hopeful...!! And I am looking at emails that >>> have been >>> exchanged by several others who saw it...most are >>> discouraged... absolutely no instincts that are >>> necessary for >>> take off , let alone landing! >>> I sent the wife and kids ...widow/orphan >>> message...to him... >>> as thick as I could , no holds barred!! >>> I feel as if I am witnessing someone's >>> death in slow >>> motion... :-( Herb >>> On 05/03/2016 >>> 03:25 PM, Larry Cottrell >>> wrote: >>> On Tue, >>> May 3, 2016 at 12:44 PM, >>> Herb >>> wrote: >>> --> >>> Kolb-List message posted by: >>> Herb >>> Up shot...the new owner put it on its >>> back..and did >>> considerable damage which the club members >>> (a lot of >>> expertise in that club!!) have >>> repaired..to the extent >>> that the repair is hardly noticeable... >>> To be honest, after all that I have >>> heard,, it would >>> have been great if it was not fixable!!! >>> :-( >>> We have developed a plan to help save >>> this guy.... >>> lets hope.... (wife and kids are last >>> resort!!) Herb >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> I'm >>> not sure what you are so >>> worried about. If the guy had it on its >>> back >>> already, he should be getting the >>> message, don't you >>> think? Nothing like a little personal up >>> close >>> experience to tell a guy what he does >>> and does not >>> know. Sounds like a great bunch of >>> guy's that would >>> help him put it back together. I am sure >>> that he >>> will now be open to suggestions. >>> Larry >>> -- >>> The older I >>> get, the less >>> tolerant I am of those who >>> are >>> intolerant of >>> others. >>> If you forward this >>> email, or any part of it, >>> please remove >>> my email address before >>> sending. >>> -- >>> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. >>> Foster...Third red light and turn left. >>> -- >>> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third >>> red light and turn left. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light >> and turn left. >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Signature text; Fort Marcy Park? Sure...Mr. Foster...Third red light and turn left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.