Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:48 AM - Re: ground aerobatics... (flywithme)
2. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: ground aerobatics... (Bill Berle)
3. 03:15 PM - Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
4. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: ground aerobatics... (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: ground aerobatics... |
i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as
being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: ground aerobatics... |
By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is
one that uses a bank angle 45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the
"steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it
was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training).
A 60 degree banked level flight turn in calm air results in exactly a 2G load on
the airframe. I'm pretty sure that the Kolb was designed to withstand far far
more than 2G. (if not, I have a Firestar kit for sale cheap).
However, bank angle alone does not determine G forces. A 60 degree banked coordinated
level flight turn will give you 2G. But a "wingover" maneuver is not a
level turn, and most of the time the high bank angle comes at a time when the
airplane is "unloaded". So the reality is that the wingover maneuver shown in
the video could easily have been at ZERO-G. (I do zero-G wingovers all the time
in an old Cessna 172 and it puts zero stress on the airframe)
You can do a simple "aileron roll" that puts no stress whatsoever on the airplane
for 3/4 of the maneuver, and only 1.3 or 1.4G on the airplane during the other
1/4 of the maneuver. There is a very famous incident of a Boeing test pilot
named Tex Johnson doing a full 360 degree aileron roll in the first prototype
707, with a bunch of news reporters on board, and it didn't even ruffle anyone's
hair on board the airplane. You can find the video on youtube I'm sure.
The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than
30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily
be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or
loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What
gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these
maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that
the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot
with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before
playing around with these kinds of maneuvers.
The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense
to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going
to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme <constrjh@pldi.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics...
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM
"flywithme" <constrjh@pldi.net>
i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a
steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb.
is this really such a dangerous maneuver
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 3
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Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
I was out last night working on the Firestar project, and wanted to report my progress.
As of this writing, I have completed two horizontal stabilizers, and have completed
just about everything on the vertical fin assembly. The only thing left on
that is to drill the hole for the lower tail brace wire bolt, but I'm sure this
can wait until I have the tail installed on the fuselage tube and can line
everything up better.
I started to lay out the rudder last night, cut the main upright tube, and started
laying out the gussets. After looking closely at the standard rudder and elevator,
I decided to make a slight change in the method of attaching the parts
together. To make a slightly more robust and more rigid set of controls I will
be using the same style of thin "tube and gusset" construction as the stabilizer.
This will allow two rivets at each intersection instead of one, and provide
a small triangular gusset to stiffen and brace the intersection. The extra
weight and "control surface balance" will very likely be negligible.
I had made a decision to not attempt to build a showplane, and not attempt to make
everything perfect. An engineer friend of mine has a saying... "perfection
is the enemy of completion" :) So my efforts will be used to build a safe, solid,
but not show quality aircraft. Since this one will be used as a dirt and
sand airplane fairly often, any extra effort on a shiny finish will have been
wasted. This whole thing may be left Stits silver anyway, to make dings, repairs
and bullhead thorn repairs easier.
As an esoteric note, I just realized that the serial number on my fuselage (F-1203)
is different than the number in the instruction manual I got (690-something).
Can anyone tell me if there were any changes to the manual that would affect
this? How can I verify that I have the latest and most applicable instruction
manual and/or plans?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/6/16, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics...
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 11:16 AM
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
By normal flight training standards, based on very old
memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle
45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep
turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at
least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot
training).
A 60 degree banked level flight turn in calm air results in
exactly a 2G load on the airframe. I'm pretty sure that the
Kolb was designed to withstand far far more than 2G. (if
not, I have a Firestar kit for sale cheap).
However, bank angle alone does not determine G forces. A 60
degree banked coordinated level flight turn will give you
2G. But a "wingover" maneuver is not a level turn, and most
of the time the high bank angle comes at a time when the
airplane is "unloaded". So the reality is that the wingover
maneuver shown in the video could easily have been at
ZERO-G. (I do zero-G wingovers all the time in an old Cessna
172 and it puts zero stress on the airframe)
You can do a simple "aileron roll" that puts no stress
whatsoever on the airplane for 3/4 of the maneuver, and only
1.3 or 1.4G on the airplane during the other 1/4 of the
maneuver. There is a very famous incident of a Boeing test
pilot named Tex Johnson doing a full 360 degree aileron roll
in the first prototype 707, with a bunch of news reporters
on board, and it didn't even ruffle anyone's hair on board
the airplane. You can find the video on youtube I'm sure.
The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from
level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees
of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that
exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or
loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous"
in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges
or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can
easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that
the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and
THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get
aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around
with these kinds of maneuvers.
The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does
not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb.
As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do
hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade
for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme <constrjh@pldi.net>
wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics...
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM
"flywithme" <constrjh@pldi.net>
i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a
steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a
kolb.
is this really such a dangerous maneuver
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: ground aerobatics... |
I can only speak for myself. My Kolbs all loved to fly that way. To me, it
was/is normal.
The Kolb is a very capable aircraft, but to fly it well, one needs to train
and practice, practice, practice.
I am out of shape now. When I go out to fly, I ease myself into more
demanding maneuvers as I get reacquainted with my airplane.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flywithme
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2016 11:48 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics...
i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn
as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous
maneuver
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928
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