---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/06/16: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:48 AM - Re: ground aerobatics... (flywithme) 2. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: ground aerobatics... (Bill Berle) 3. 03:15 PM - Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle) 4. 05:50 PM - Re: Re: ground aerobatics... (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:48:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... From: "flywithme" i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:30 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle 45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training). A 60 degree banked level flight turn in calm air results in exactly a 2G load on the airframe. I'm pretty sure that the Kolb was designed to withstand far far more than 2G. (if not, I have a Firestar kit for sale cheap). However, bank angle alone does not determine G forces. A 60 degree banked coordinated level flight turn will give you 2G. But a "wingover" maneuver is not a level turn, and most of the time the high bank angle comes at a time when the airplane is "unloaded". So the reality is that the wingover maneuver shown in the video could easily have been at ZERO-G. (I do zero-G wingovers all the time in an old Cessna 172 and it puts zero stress on the airframe) You can do a simple "aileron roll" that puts no stress whatsoever on the airplane for 3/4 of the maneuver, and only 1.3 or 1.4G on the airplane during the other 1/4 of the maneuver. There is a very famous incident of a Boeing test pilot named Tex Johnson doing a full 360 degree aileron roll in the first prototype 707, with a bunch of news reporters on board, and it didn't even ruffle anyone's hair on board the airplane. You can find the video on youtube I'm sure. The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around with these kinds of maneuvers. The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM "flywithme" i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:43 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report I was out last night working on the Firestar project, and wanted to report my progress. As of this writing, I have completed two horizontal stabilizers, and have completed just about everything on the vertical fin assembly. The only thing left on that is to drill the hole for the lower tail brace wire bolt, but I'm sure this can wait until I have the tail installed on the fuselage tube and can line everything up better. I started to lay out the rudder last night, cut the main upright tube, and started laying out the gussets. After looking closely at the standard rudder and elevator, I decided to make a slight change in the method of attaching the parts together. To make a slightly more robust and more rigid set of controls I will be using the same style of thin "tube and gusset" construction as the stabilizer. This will allow two rivets at each intersection instead of one, and provide a small triangular gusset to stiffen and brace the intersection. The extra weight and "control surface balance" will very likely be negligible. I had made a decision to not attempt to build a showplane, and not attempt to make everything perfect. An engineer friend of mine has a saying... "perfection is the enemy of completion" :) So my efforts will be used to build a safe, solid, but not show quality aircraft. Since this one will be used as a dirt and sand airplane fairly often, any extra effort on a shiny finish will have been wasted. This whole thing may be left Stits silver anyway, to make dings, repairs and bullhead thorn repairs easier. As an esoteric note, I just realized that the serial number on my fuselage (F-1203) is different than the number in the instruction manual I got (690-something). Can anyone tell me if there were any changes to the manual that would affect this? How can I verify that I have the latest and most applicable instruction manual and/or plans? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 5/6/16, Bill Berle wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 11:16 AM Bill Berle By normal flight training standards, based on very old memories, a steep turn is one that uses a bank angle 45 degrees or higher. 60 degrees is considered the "steep turn" benchmark when you do FAA private pilot training (at least it was in the 1970's when we had real pilot training). A 60 degree banked level flight turn in calm air results in exactly a 2G load on the airframe. I'm pretty sure that the Kolb was designed to withstand far far more than 2G. (if not, I have a Firestar kit for sale cheap). However, bank angle alone does not determine G forces. A 60 degree banked coordinated level flight turn will give you 2G. But a "wingover" maneuver is not a level turn, and most of the time the high bank angle comes at a time when the airplane is "unloaded". So the reality is that the wingover maneuver shown in the video could easily have been at ZERO-G. (I do zero-G wingovers all the time in an old Cessna 172 and it puts zero stress on the airframe) You can do a simple "aileron roll" that puts no stress whatsoever on the airplane for 3/4 of the maneuver, and only 1.3 or 1.4G on the airplane during the other 1/4 of the maneuver. There is a very famous incident of a Boeing test pilot named Tex Johnson doing a full 360 degree aileron roll in the first prototype 707, with a bunch of news reporters on board, and it didn't even ruffle anyone's hair on board the airplane. You can find the video on youtube I'm sure. The FAA definition of "Aerobatics" is an excursion from level flight of more than 30 degrees of pitch and 60 degrees of bank. But "aerobatic" maneuvers can easily be done that exceed these numbers without putting any abnormal stress or loads on the airplane... and are in reality not "dangerous" in any way. What gets dangerous is when the pilot misjudges or mishandles the recovery from these maneuvers, and can easily accidentally exceed the speed or G load limits that the airframe can handle. THAT is the dangerous part, and THAT is why any pilot with a brain in his head will get aerobatic or "upset recovery" training before playing around with these kinds of maneuvers. The Kolb was of course not designed for aerobatics. It does not make any sense to do intentional aerobatics in a Kolb. As mentioned by others, if you are going to go out and do hard aerobatics on purpose then go rent a Citabria. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 5/6/16, flywithme wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, May 6, 2016, 9:48 AM "flywithme" i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:38 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... I can only speak for myself. My Kolbs all loved to fly that way. To me, it was/is normal. The Kolb is a very capable aircraft, but to fly it well, one needs to train and practice, practice, practice. I am out of shape now. When I go out to fly, I ease myself into more demanding maneuvers as I get reacquainted with my airplane. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of flywithme Sent: Friday, May 06, 2016 11:48 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: ground aerobatics... i see in some posts reference to the first pilot making a steep banking turn as being a dangerous maneuver in a kolb. is this really such a dangerous maneuver Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=455928#455928 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.