Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Dennis Rowe)
2. 10:38 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
3. 10:52 AM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Bill Berle)
4. 10:56 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Malcolm Brubaker)
5. 11:24 AM - Re: Lithium Batteries (west1m)
6. 11:57 AM - Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (flywithme)
7. 12:47 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Bill Berle)
8. 02:25 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
9. 02:52 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (John Hauck)
10. 03:02 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
11. 04:31 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Stuart Harner)
12. 04:54 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (John Hauck)
13. 08:08 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (wakataka)
14. 08:44 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Stuart Harner)
15. 09:44 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
.32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16 or .20 and
they'll be light as feathers.
Dennis "Skid" Rowe
> On May 31, 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Hi Bill
>
> I built replicas of your new design while transferring parts from my FSII t
o my FSSS, found them significantly heavier and went back to the old design.
I redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form ribs. Once again
too heavy and I'm back to the old design. I wish you luck in your build.
>
> Joe.
>
> From: "Bill Berle" <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
>
> Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I probably attached a photo to the ori
ginal e-mail that showed the elevator under construction, not completed.
>
> My control surfaces do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper and l
ower structural rib "cap" at each rib location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb
5/16" tubes just like the plans show.
>
> BUT... instead of the standard Kolb design of riveting the tubes directly
to the leading edge and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum
gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the Kolb plans near t
he back of the plan set as an alternate method of attaching the (upper) rib t
ubes to the trailing edge tube.
>
> What I did that was completely different than the plans is this:
>
> 1) The front of the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset
at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib tubes approximate
ly FLUSH with the top and bottom of the leading edge tube. This is somewhat l
ike the method used in the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.
>
> 2) At the trailing edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb "optio
nal" method at the back of the plans. A small triangular gusset sits "Across
" the 90 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge tube. Then,
the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight angle to rest NEXT TO the t
op rib tube, nesting against the same triangular gusset attaching the top ri
b tube. This way the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is s
till one 5/16" tube.
>
> Looking from the side view, you would see the trailing edge tube with one o
f the rib tubes butting up against it, and you would not see the other rib t
ube because it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the edge of
the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the intersection.
>
> So the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can see in the p
hoto attached tot his e-mail....
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-pro
fit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
> To: "Kolb list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM
>
> Bill, Your photos show single tubes
> from leading edge to trailing edge. Is this according to
> your Kolb plans or your own modification? Every Kolb flight
> surface I=99ve ever built required a second tube for
> triangulation in order to transfer the input torque to the
> control surface.Here is a graphic
> that will hopefully show what I=99m concerned
> about.
>
>
>
>
> On May 20,
> 2016, at 6:00 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> Made progress on the first elevator
> half tonight. Similar to rudder,
> triangular sheet metal
> gussets at
> the intersections. Home-made quickie rivet
> locator tool works well. I will
> probably make a better steel
> one
> when I get to the ailerons because the ones I made from
> aluminum are starting to wear after
> about 50 holes.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade
> for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for
> non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> -<Elevator
> Under Construction.jpg><Elevator
> Gussets 1.jpg>
>
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron
rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of
being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural
caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing
edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.
When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon
using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft
Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter
resistant control surface... or it may not.
Bill
On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny@windstream.net> wrote:
.32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16
or .20 and they'll be light as feathers.
Dennis "Skid"
Rowe
On May 31,
2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net
wrote:
Hi
Bill
I built replicas of your new design
while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them
significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I
redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form
ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old
design. I wish you luck in your build.
Joe.
From: "Bill
Berle" <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50
AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re:
Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I
probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed
the elevator under construction, not completed.
My control surfaces
do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper
and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib
location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16"
tubes just like the plans show.
BUT... instead of the standard Kolb
design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge
and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum
gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the
Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate
method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing
edge tube.
What
I did that was completely different than the plans is this:
1) The front of
the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset
at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib
tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the
leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in
the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.
2) At the trailing
edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb
"optional" method at the back of the plans. A
small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90
degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge
tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight
angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the
same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way
the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is
still one 5/16" tube.
Looking from the side view, you would see
the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up
against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because
it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the
edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the
intersection.
So
the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can
see in the photo attached tot his e-mail....
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb
Firestar Progress report
To: "Kolb
list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM
Bill,Your photos show
single tubes
from leading edge to trailing
edge. Is this according to
your Kolb plans
or your own modification? Every Kolb flight
surface Ive ever built required a second
tube for
triangulation in order to
transfer the input torque to the
control
surface.Here is a graphic
that will
hopefully show what Im concerned
about.
On May 20,
2016, at 6:00
PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Made progress on the first elevator
half tonight. Similar to rudder,
triangular sheet metal
gussets at
the
intersections. Home-made quickie rivet
locator tool works well. I will
probably make a better steel
one
when I get to the
ailerons because the ones I made from
aluminum are starting to wear after
about 50 holes.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
-
safety & performance upgrade
for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit entities
-<Elevator
Under Construction.jpg><Elevator
Gussets 1.jpg>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have
used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them,
and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most
interested in that since that is what I'm building.
If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion
can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests
without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss
the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with
the forum bandwidth police :).
I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow
speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft
have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons,
and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it
may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the
mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and
what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work.
If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot
did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not
worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket
and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would
be most welcome.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Palmer Alaska , sorry we missed you, =C2-the =C2-Michiganders are heade
d to Fairbanks thuresday am =C2-then to Talkeetna =C2-for a week each.
If there are ay Kolbers up here I would love to meet you. =C2- Call any t
ime. =C2- Mal=C2-
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Bill Berle<victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wro
t>
I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aile
ron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility
of
being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structu
ral caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and tr
ailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.
When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an ailero
n/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Ai
rcraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps
more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.
Bill
On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe <rowedenny@windstream.net> wrote:
.32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16
or .20 and they'll be light as feathers.
Dennis "Skid"
Rowe
On May 31,
2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net
wrote:
Hi
Bill
I built replicas of your new design
while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them
significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I
redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form
ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old
design. I wish you luck in your build.
Joe.=C2-
From: "Bill
Berle" <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
To: "kolb-list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50
AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re:
Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I
probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed
the elevator under construction, not completed.
My control surfaces
do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper
and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib
location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16"
tubes just like the plans show.
BUT... =C2-instead of the standard Kolb
design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge
and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum
gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the
Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate
method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing
edge tube.
What
I did that was completely different than the plans is this:
1) The front of
the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset
at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib
tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the
leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in
the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas.
2) At the trailing
edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb
"optional" method at the back of the plans. A
small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90
degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge
tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight
angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the
same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way
the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is
still one 5/16" tube.
Looking from the side view, you would see
the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up
against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because
it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the
edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the
intersection.
So
the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can
see in the photo attached tot his e-mail....
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com=C2-
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com>
wrote:
=C2-Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb
Firestar Progress report
=C2-To: "Kolb
list" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
=C2-Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM
=C2-
=C2-Bill,=C2-Your photos show
single tubes
=C2-from leading edge to trailing
edge. Is this according to
=C2-your Kolb plans
or your own modification? Every Kolb flight
=C2-surface I=99ve ever built required a second
tube for
=C2-triangulation in order to
transfer the input torque to the
=C2-control
surface.Here is a graphic
=C2-that will
hopefully show what I=99m concerned
=C2-about.
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-On May 20,
=C2-2016, at 6:00
PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
=C2-wrote:
=C2-
=C2-Made progress on the first elevator
=C2-half tonight. Similar to rudder,
=C2-triangular sheet metal
=C2-gussets at
=C2-the
intersections. Home-made quickie rivet
=C2-locator tool works well. I will
=C2-probably make a better steel
=C2-one
=C2-when I get to the
ailerons because the ones I made from
=C2-aluminum are starting to wear after
=C2-about 50 holes.
=C2-
=C2-Bill Berle
=C2-www.ezflaphandle.com=C2-
-
=C2-safety & performance upgrade
=C2-for light aircraft
=C2-www.grantstar.net =C2-
=C2-
=C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals for
=C2-non-profit and for-profit entities
=C2-
=C2--<Elevator
=C2-Under Construction.jpg><Elevator
=C2-Gussets 1.jpg>
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
I believe you statement about running out of power sooner to be true. I seems I
ran out of power rather quickly when the alt quit using a Shorai battery. (Earlier
post "missed my lunch"
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456780#456780
Message 6
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Subject: | Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with flaperons. i have a Firefly
with flaperons and from reading i can see very little discussion on their use.
i may be wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly their plane
to the ground with out flaps.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456781#456781
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
After a brief search of the Kolb List archives, it was clear that there are advantages
and disadvantages to flaps, flaperons, and just plain ailerons.
THANK YOU to Matt Dralle, John H, and all the other experienced Kolb pilots for
contributing to the archives.
Because all of these configurations have different advantages, and I don't have
John's range of experience flying the Kolbs, instead of flaperons I'm going to
look into building separate flaps and ailerons. The reason for this is that
it gives me options to experiment with, like controlling the flaps and ailerons
separately, together, proportionally mixed (twist), and even other exotic possibilities
like the "crow" function that I enjoyed so much on the AS-W20 glider.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/2/16, flywithme <constrjh@pldi.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 11:56 AM
"flywithme" <constrjh@pldi.net>
I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with
flaperons. i have a Firefly with flaperons and from reading
i can see very little discussion on their use. i may be
wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly
their plane to the ground with out flaps.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456781#456781
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 8
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Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter resistant by changing construction
material/technique. You'll have to change the balance point, which we
have done with aileron counterbalance weights.
Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much easier and quicker to
build. But, then it wouldn't be a Kolb. The ailerons, elevators, and ribs,
wouldn't have "Homer Bumps". If they were clean, the airplane would look like
a city boy airplane. Kolbs have their roots in antique tractors and heavy farm
equipment, grass strips and cows. The two go hand in hand. I've been flying
out of Gantt International Airport for 32 years. Gantt is equipped with grass
strips, cows, cow manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment.
Anyone ever experience elevator flutter? I still cannot understand why they are
not prone to flutter. One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they
work in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one way or the
other. I know of one instance of elevator flutter. That was caused by an adjustable
trim tab mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator. Somehow
it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the pilot. Believe that was a
Twin Star.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron
rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being
stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps)
and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge).
.032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206.
When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon
using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft
Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter
resistant control surface... or it may not.
Bill
Message 9
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Subject: | Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
I've flown the SS and FF quite a bit over the years. The flaperons are useless
as tits on a boar hog.
Gene Zimmerman has flaps on his modified Kolb. Maybe he'll chime in here.
Flaps on my MKIII, serial number 11, not an Xtra, work great, and I use them most
every time for landing. Seldom use them for T/O because it takes off so well.
Usually use them for T/O in severe conditions, rough field, wet with standing
water, mud, sand, tall grass and weeds, or when carrying a large passenger
and have limited airstrip.
My MKIII has 20 and 40 degrees of flaps, which really slows the airplane down,
increases rate of descent without building a lot of airspeed. Besides, they are
fun to play with.
The MKIII climbs better without flaps. Their purpose, for me, is to break ground
and fly. Soon as I am off the ground, gain a little airspeed, I get rid of
them.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have
used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them,
and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most
interested in that since that is what I'm building.
If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion
can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests
without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss
the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with
the forum bandwidth police :).
I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow
speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft
have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons,
and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it
may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the
mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and
what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work.
If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot
did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not
worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket
and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would
be most welcome.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 10
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Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
With 100% sincere and appreciative respect for Mr. Kolb and his legacy, if the
Kolb community wants me to distance or separate my aircraft from being called
a Kolb (because of the modification I made/make) then I will call it something
else.
But this raises the possibility of offending some Kolb people by NOT giving due
credit for the basic design, and all the Kolb features that I did not change.
For example, if I tell someone that this airplane is a Super-Star Model X and that
the wing folding mechanism allows it to go from trailer to flight in ten minutes...
I can already hear people screaming "You can thank Homer Kolb for that,
it didn't come from your mind you disrespectful Bozo !!!"
But again, because I genuinely respect the people who have innovated and designed
airplane stuff, everyone can let me know whether they want to call this a Kolb
or not. I'll go along with whatever the group wants.
My original plan, for whatever it is worth, was to refer to it a "modified Kolb
FireStar" if anyone asked what kind of airplane it is. Maybe I will give it a
funny name like The Comical Comet, or Billy's Bomber, or Franken-STOL or something.
Speaking of aileron balance weights, I notice that some of the later two seat Kolbs
have some sort of fiberglass wingtip that makes a different shape (droop
tip like a bush plane) but still allows the aileron balance rod to move freely.
How is this fiberglass wingtip attached to the trailing edge tube? It would
seem that there cannot be an attachment to the trailing edge, because that would
interfere with the balance rod movement.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 6/2/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 2:25 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter
resistant by changing construction material/technique.
You'll have to change the balance point, which we have done
with aileron counterbalance weights.
Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much
easier and quicker to build. But, then it wouldn't be
a Kolb. The ailerons, elevators, and ribs, wouldn't
have "Homer Bumps". If they were clean, the airplane
would look like a city boy airplane. Kolbs have their
roots in antique tractors and heavy farm equipment, grass
strips and cows. The two go hand in hand. I've
been flying out of Gantt International Airport for 32
years. Gantt is equipped with grass strips, cows, cow
manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment.
Anyone ever experience elevator flutter? I still
cannot understand why they are not prone to flutter.
One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they work
in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one
way or the other. I know of one instance of elevator
flutter. That was caused by an adjustable trim tab
mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator.
Somehow it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the
pilot. Believe that was a Twin Star.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will
make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x
.035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer
(introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib
structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet
to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs
would be for a Cessna 206.
When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE
section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge
tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab
trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more
flutter resistant control surface... or it may not.
Bill
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Message 11
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Subject: | Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
John,
On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or
that the affect was minimal?
So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight
ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen
the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as
soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take
off with any flap applied.
As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the
flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I
like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new.
Thanks,
Stuart
Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
I've flown the SS and FF quite a bit over the years. The flaperons are useless
as tits on a boar hog.
Gene Zimmerman has flaps on his modified Kolb. Maybe he'll chime in here.
Flaps on my MKIII, serial number 11, not an Xtra, work great, and I use them most
every time for landing. Seldom use them for T/O because it takes off so well.
Usually use them for T/O in severe conditions, rough field, wet with standing
water, mud, sand, tall grass and weeds, or when carrying a large passenger
and have limited airstrip.
My MKIII has 20 and 40 degrees of flaps, which really slows the airplane down,
increases rate of descent without building a lot of airspeed. Besides, they are
fun to play with.
The MKIII climbs better without flaps. Their purpose, for me, is to break ground
and fly. Soon as I am off the ground, gain a little airspeed, I get rid of
them.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have
used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them,
and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most
interested in that since that is what I'm building.
If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion
can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests
without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss
the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with
the forum bandwidth police :).
I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow
speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft
have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons,
and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it
may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the
mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and
what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work.
If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot
did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not
worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket
and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would
be most welcome.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 12
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Subject: | Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
I don't know how much you weigh, but the 447 FF was a regular rocket with my 180
lbs. I really could not tell much difference between using flaps or not, so
I didn't use them. I
I don't know what kind of approach and departure you have. Kind of remember it
is going to be one way in and one way out. Unless you have really tall trees
at the threshold you may not have problems. You can also shoot your approach
at 90 degrees if that option is clear and you can get down lower. That's the
secret for a short field. To be able to get down low at the threshold.
I flew my Ultrastar off 600 feet, but had pretty good approach and a 25 mph stall.
If it was me, I'd take my time and emphasize to myself that I did not have to land
until everything felt 100%. If it didn't, I'd go somewhere else and land,
do some more homework, and try again.
One cannot make the airplane do something it does not want to do.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
John,
On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or
that the affect was minimal?
So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight
ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen
the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as
soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take
off with any flap applied.
As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the
flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I
like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new.
Thanks,
Stuart
Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
When you ran out of juice, did it permanently kill the battery, or were you able
to keep using it?
--------
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of
conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
Mark Twain
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456801#456801
Message 14
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Subject: | Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
In summer clothes I am probably close to 220. I know the FF will climb like a homesick
angel at 40 MPH indicated, but that steep of an angle makes me nervous.
For one thing your reflexes have to be really quick should the engine sputter.
I like 50 better.
You are right, the plan is to take off to the north where the trees are shorter
and a 30 degree right turn will put me out over open fields. Landing to the south
would be a 30 degree turn from a weird shaped base to final. On the south
end of the field the trees are taller but there is a gap to squeak through in
an emergency.
Last year at Y19 I practiced on 400' of grass between the taxi way and the main
runway. 150' wide and 1000'+ on either end, so I had to imagine my obstacles.
The current plan is to take off to the north and turn away from the trees toward
the open area as soon as possible. Then circle around and start making approaches
and getting a "feel" for the visual clues and angles needed. If I can't
get comfortable enough to land in the first 30 minutes, I will still have enough
fuel to easily get back to Y19.
On the FF does the use of full flaps reduce your approach speed or just steepen
the angle?
I like going as slow as possible for touchdown and the idea of staying up a little
higher, then "dropping" in gives the added bonus of extra height for engine
problems. But it is also something else to possible complicate things when you
least need them complicated. :)
In my case, if flaps don't lower the approach speed or significantly shorten the
takeoff roll, I don't see much need for them as an angled approach will keep
me in the clear.
I am getting anxious to get out and try it.
Thanks for the input.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
I don't know how much you weigh, but the 447 FF was a regular rocket with my 180
lbs. I really could not tell much difference between using flaps or not, so
I didn't use them. I
I don't know what kind of approach and departure you have. Kind of remember it
is going to be one way in and one way out. Unless you have really tall trees
at the threshold you may not have problems. You can also shoot your approach
at 90 degrees if that option is clear and you can get down lower. That's the
secret for a short field. To be able to get down low at the threshold.
I flew my Ultrastar off 600 feet, but had pretty good approach and a 25 mph stall.
If it was me, I'd take my time and emphasize to myself that I did not have to land
until everything felt 100%. If it didn't, I'd go somewhere else and land,
do some more homework, and try again.
One cannot make the airplane do something it does not want to do.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons
John,
On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or
that the affect was minimal?
So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight
ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen
the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as
soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take
off with any flap applied.
As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the
flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I
like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new.
Thanks,
Stuart
Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Question re: Kolb Flaperons |
Perhaps you should take it up to altitude and see what speed indicated that
it stalls with the flaps on. That is much preferable to taking someone
else's word for what their ff preforms at.
Larry
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