---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 06/02/16: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:48 AM - Re: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Dennis Rowe) 2. 10:38 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle) 3. 10:52 AM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Bill Berle) 4. 10:56 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Malcolm Brubaker) 5. 11:24 AM - Re: Lithium Batteries (west1m) 6. 11:57 AM - Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (flywithme) 7. 12:47 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Bill Berle) 8. 02:25 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck) 9. 02:52 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (John Hauck) 10. 03:02 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle) 11. 04:31 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Stuart Harner) 12. 04:54 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (John Hauck) 13. 08:08 PM - Re: Lithium Batteries (wakataka) 14. 08:44 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Stuart Harner) 15. 09:44 PM - Re: Question Re: Kolb Flaperons (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:24 AM PST US From: Dennis Rowe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report .32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers. Dennis "Skid" Rowe > On May 31, 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net wrote: > > Hi Bill > > I built replicas of your new design while transferring parts from my FSII t o my FSSS, found them significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old design. I wish you luck in your build. > > Joe. > > From: "Bill Berle" > To: "kolb-list" > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50 AM > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report > > Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I probably attached a photo to the ori ginal e-mail that showed the elevator under construction, not completed. > > My control surfaces do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper and l ower structural rib "cap" at each rib location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16" tubes just like the plans show. > > BUT... instead of the standard Kolb design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the Kolb plans near t he back of the plan set as an alternate method of attaching the (upper) rib t ubes to the trailing edge tube. > > What I did that was completely different than the plans is this: > > 1) The front of the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib tubes approximate ly FLUSH with the top and bottom of the leading edge tube. This is somewhat l ike the method used in the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas. > > 2) At the trailing edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb "optio nal" method at the back of the plans. A small triangular gusset sits "Across " the 90 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight angle to rest NEXT TO the t op rib tube, nesting against the same triangular gusset attaching the top ri b tube. This way the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is s till one 5/16" tube. > > Looking from the side view, you would see the trailing edge tube with one o f the rib tubes butting up against it, and you would not see the other rib t ube because it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the intersection. > > So the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can see in the p hoto attached tot his e-mail.... > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-pro fit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report > To: "Kolb list" > Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM > > Bill, Your photos show single tubes > from leading edge to trailing edge. Is this according to > your Kolb plans or your own modification? Every Kolb flight > surface I=99ve ever built required a second tube for > triangulation in order to transfer the input torque to the > control surface.Here is a graphic > that will hopefully show what I=99m concerned > about. > > > > > On May 20, > 2016, at 6:00 PM, Bill Berle > wrote: > > Made progress on the first elevator > half tonight. Similar to rudder, > triangular sheet metal > gussets at > the intersections. Home-made quickie rivet > locator tool works well. I will > probably make a better steel > one > when I get to the ailerons because the ones I made from > aluminum are starting to wear after > about 50 holes. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade > for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for > non-profit and for-profit entities > > - Under Construction.jpg> Gussets 1.jpg> > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:47 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206. When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not. Bill On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: .32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers. Dennis "Skid" Rowe On May 31, 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net wrote: Hi Bill I built replicas of your new design while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old design. I wish you luck in your build. Joe. From: "Bill Berle" To: "kolb-list" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed the elevator under construction, not completed. My control surfaces do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16" tubes just like the plans show. BUT... instead of the standard Kolb design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing edge tube. What I did that was completely different than the plans is this: 1) The front of the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas. 2) At the trailing edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb "optional" method at the back of the plans. A small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is still one 5/16" tube. Looking from the side view, you would see the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the intersection. So the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can see in the photo attached tot his e-mail.... Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report To: "Kolb list" Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM Bill,Your photos show single tubes from leading edge to trailing edge. Is this according to your Kolb plans or your own modification? Every Kolb flight surface Ive ever built required a second tube for triangulation in order to transfer the input torque to the control surface.Here is a graphic that will hopefully show what Im concerned about. On May 20, 2016, at 6:00 PM, Bill Berle wrote: Made progress on the first elevator half tonight. Similar to rudder, triangular sheet metal gussets at the intersections. Home-made quickie rivet locator tool works well. I will probably make a better steel one when I get to the ailerons because the ones I made from aluminum are starting to wear after about 50 holes. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities - ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:52 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them, and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most interested in that since that is what I'm building. If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with the forum bandwidth police :). I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons, and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work. If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would be most welcome. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:56:59 AM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report Palmer Alaska , sorry we missed you, =C2-the =C2-Michiganders are heade d to Fairbanks thuresday am =C2-then to Talkeetna =C2-for a week each. If there are ay Kolbers up here I would love to meet you. =C2- Call any t ime. =C2- Mal=C2- Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Bill Berle wro t> I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aile ron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structu ral caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and tr ailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206. When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an ailero n/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Ai rcraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not. Bill On Thu, 6/2/16, Dennis Rowe wrote: .32 is too thick. If you make sheet metal U channel ribs, use .16 or .20 and they'll be light as feathers. Dennis "Skid" Rowe On May 31, 2016, at 6:47 AM, mojavjoe@comcast.net wrote: Hi Bill I built replicas of your new design while transferring parts from my FSII to my FSSS, found them significantly heavier and went back to the old design. I redesigned the alerions as well using .032 sheet to form ribs. Once again too heavy and I'm back to the old design. I wish you luck in your build. Joe.=C2- From: "Bill Berle" To: "kolb-list" Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:01:50 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report Hi Gene, thank you for the inquiry. I probably attached a photo to the original e-mail that showed the elevator under construction, not completed. My control surfaces do indeed have "triangulation". There is an upper and lower structural rib "cap" at each rib location. The "Caps" are standard Kolb 5/16" tubes just like the plans show. BUT... =C2-instead of the standard Kolb design of riveting the tubes directly to the leading edge and trailing edge, I attached them using .032" aluminum gusset plates. This is actually permitted and shown on the Kolb plans near the back of the plan set as an alternate method of attaching the (upper) rib tubes to the trailing edge tube. What I did that was completely different than the plans is this: 1) The front of the upper and lower rib tube attach is done using a gusset at the top and another gusset at the bottom, with the rib tubes approximately FLUSH with the top and bottom of the leading edge tube. This is somewhat like the method used in the Graham Lee and Robert Baslee Nieuport replicas. 2) At the trailing edge, the method I used starts off like the Kolb "optional" method at the back of the plans. A small triangular gusset sits "Across" the 90 degree joint between the top rib tube and trailing edge tube. Then, the bottom rib tube comes back at a very slight angle to rest NEXT TO the top rib tube, nesting against the same triangular gusset attaching the top rib tube. This way the thickness of the trailing edge is not increased, it is still one 5/16" tube. Looking from the side view, you would see the trailing edge tube with one of the rib tubes butting up against it, and you would not see the other rib tube because it would be behind the first one. Then you would see the edge of the .032 gusset sitting on the top of the intersection. So the finished elevator ribs actually look like what you can see in the photo attached tot his e-mail.... Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com=C2- - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 5/30/16, Eugene Zimmerman wrote: =C2-Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Fw: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report =C2-To: "Kolb list" =C2-Date: Monday, May 30, 2016, 4:24 PM =C2- =C2-Bill,=C2-Your photos show single tubes =C2-from leading edge to trailing edge. Is this according to =C2-your Kolb plans or your own modification? Every Kolb flight =C2-surface I=99ve ever built required a second tube for =C2-triangulation in order to transfer the input torque to the =C2-control surface.Here is a graphic =C2-that will hopefully show what I=99m concerned =C2-about. =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-On May 20, =C2-2016, at 6:00 PM, Bill Berle =C2-wrote: =C2- =C2-Made progress on the first elevator =C2-half tonight. Similar to rudder, =C2-triangular sheet metal =C2-gussets at =C2-the intersections. Home-made quickie rivet =C2-locator tool works well. I will =C2-probably make a better steel =C2-one =C2-when I get to the ailerons because the ones I made from =C2-aluminum are starting to wear after =C2-about 50 holes. =C2- =C2-Bill Berle =C2-www.ezflaphandle.com=C2- - =C2-safety & performance upgrade =C2-for light aircraft =C2-www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2- =C2-=C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals for =C2-non-profit and for-profit entities =C2- =C2-- S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:10 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Lithium Batteries From: "west1m" I believe you statement about running out of power sooner to be true. I seems I ran out of power rather quickly when the alt quit using a Shorai battery. (Earlier post "missed my lunch" -------- West1m Hastings, MN Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456780#456780 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:02 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons From: "flywithme" I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with flaperons. i have a Firefly with flaperons and from reading i can see very little discussion on their use. i may be wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly their plane to the ground with out flaps. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456781#456781 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:47:51 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons After a brief search of the Kolb List archives, it was clear that there are advantages and disadvantages to flaps, flaperons, and just plain ailerons. THANK YOU to Matt Dralle, John H, and all the other experienced Kolb pilots for contributing to the archives. Because all of these configurations have different advantages, and I don't have John's range of experience flying the Kolbs, instead of flaperons I'm going to look into building separate flaps and ailerons. The reason for this is that it gives me options to experiment with, like controlling the flaps and ailerons separately, together, proportionally mixed (twist), and even other exotic possibilities like the "crow" function that I enjoyed so much on the AS-W20 glider. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/2/16, flywithme wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 11:56 AM "flywithme" I too would enjoy listening in on any experience with flaperons. i have a Firefly with flaperons and from reading i can see very little discussion on their use. i may be wrong but at least in the firefly i think most people fly their plane to the ground with out flaps. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456781#456781 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:25:43 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter resistant by changing construction material/technique. You'll have to change the balance point, which we have done with aileron counterbalance weights. Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much easier and quicker to build. But, then it wouldn't be a Kolb. The ailerons, elevators, and ribs, wouldn't have "Homer Bumps". If they were clean, the airplane would look like a city boy airplane. Kolbs have their roots in antique tractors and heavy farm equipment, grass strips and cows. The two go hand in hand. I've been flying out of Gantt International Airport for 32 years. Gantt is equipped with grass strips, cows, cow manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment. Anyone ever experience elevator flutter? I still cannot understand why they are not prone to flutter. One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they work in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one way or the other. I know of one instance of elevator flutter. That was caused by an adjustable trim tab mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator. Somehow it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the pilot. Believe that was a Twin Star. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206. When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not. Bill ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:03 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I've flown the SS and FF quite a bit over the years. The flaperons are useless as tits on a boar hog. Gene Zimmerman has flaps on his modified Kolb. Maybe he'll chime in here. Flaps on my MKIII, serial number 11, not an Xtra, work great, and I use them most every time for landing. Seldom use them for T/O because it takes off so well. Usually use them for T/O in severe conditions, rough field, wet with standing water, mud, sand, tall grass and weeds, or when carrying a large passenger and have limited airstrip. My MKIII has 20 and 40 degrees of flaps, which really slows the airplane down, increases rate of descent without building a lot of airspeed. Besides, they are fun to play with. The MKIII climbs better without flaps. Their purpose, for me, is to break ground and fly. Soon as I am off the ground, gain a little airspeed, I get rid of them. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them, and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most interested in that since that is what I'm building. If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with the forum bandwidth police :). I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons, and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work. If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would be most welcome. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:02:28 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report With 100% sincere and appreciative respect for Mr. Kolb and his legacy, if the Kolb community wants me to distance or separate my aircraft from being called a Kolb (because of the modification I made/make) then I will call it something else. But this raises the possibility of offending some Kolb people by NOT giving due credit for the basic design, and all the Kolb features that I did not change. For example, if I tell someone that this airplane is a Super-Star Model X and that the wing folding mechanism allows it to go from trailer to flight in ten minutes... I can already hear people screaming "You can thank Homer Kolb for that, it didn't come from your mind you disrespectful Bozo !!!" But again, because I genuinely respect the people who have innovated and designed airplane stuff, everyone can let me know whether they want to call this a Kolb or not. I'll go along with whatever the group wants. My original plan, for whatever it is worth, was to refer to it a "modified Kolb FireStar" if anyone asked what kind of airplane it is. Maybe I will give it a funny name like The Comical Comet, or Billy's Bomber, or Franken-STOL or something. Speaking of aileron balance weights, I notice that some of the later two seat Kolbs have some sort of fiberglass wingtip that makes a different shape (droop tip like a bush plane) but still allows the aileron balance rod to move freely. How is this fiberglass wingtip attached to the trailing edge tube? It would seem that there cannot be an attachment to the trailing edge, because that would interfere with the balance rod movement. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 6/2/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, June 2, 2016, 2:25 PM "John Hauck" Don't think you'll make a Kolb aileron more flutter resistant by changing construction material/technique. You'll have to change the balance point, which we have done with aileron counterbalance weights. Sheet metal ribs would make flying surfaces and wings much easier and quicker to build. But, then it wouldn't be a Kolb. The ailerons, elevators, and ribs, wouldn't have "Homer Bumps". If they were clean, the airplane would look like a city boy airplane. Kolbs have their roots in antique tractors and heavy farm equipment, grass strips and cows. The two go hand in hand. I've been flying out of Gantt International Airport for 32 years. Gantt is equipped with grass strips, cows, cow manure, antique tractors, and lots of heavy farm equipment. Anyone ever experience elevator flutter? I still cannot understand why they are not prone to flutter. One reason they don't flutter, possibly, because they work in unison the same direction, and are usually loaded up, one way or the other. I know of one instance of elevator flutter. That was caused by an adjustable trim tab mounted inboard on the trailing edge of one elevator. Somehow it loosened up, went into flutter, and killed the pilot. Believe that was a Twin Star. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama I agree with Dennis 100%, I believe that .016 or .020 will make a flap/aileron rib that is just as light as two 5/16 x .035 tubes, with a possibility of being stiffer (introduction of a proper "shear web" between the rib structural caps) and easier to attach (flat flanges to rivet to the leading and trailing edge). .032" thick aileron ribs would be for a Cessna 206. When my wings are framed up, I will make a TEST SAMPLE section of an aileron/flaperon using the stock leading edge tube, a bent channel rib, and an Aircraft Spruce pre-fab trailing edge. This may produce a stiffer and perhaps more flutter resistant control surface... or it may not. Bill Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:10 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons John, On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or that the affect was minimal? So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take off with any flap applied. As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new. Thanks, Stuart Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 4:52 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I've flown the SS and FF quite a bit over the years. The flaperons are useless as tits on a boar hog. Gene Zimmerman has flaps on his modified Kolb. Maybe he'll chime in here. Flaps on my MKIII, serial number 11, not an Xtra, work great, and I use them most every time for landing. Seldom use them for T/O because it takes off so well. Usually use them for T/O in severe conditions, rough field, wet with standing water, mud, sand, tall grass and weeds, or when carrying a large passenger and have limited airstrip. My MKIII has 20 and 40 degrees of flaps, which really slows the airplane down, increases rate of descent without building a lot of airspeed. Besides, they are fun to play with. The MKIII climbs better without flaps. Their purpose, for me, is to break ground and fly. Soon as I am off the ground, gain a little airspeed, I get rid of them. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I would like to learn about the experiences of Kolb builders and pilots who have used the flaperon setup. I know that some Kolb models were designed with them, and some were not. If anyone has used them on a Firestar, I'm of course most interested in that since that is what I'm building. If someone can show me exactly where in the "archives" this info/experience/discussion can be found I will be glad to look it up and see if it addresses my interests without starting the discussion over again. If people want to discuss the subject again here as a new topic, that's fine with me too if it's OK with the forum bandwidth police :). I would like to consider using flaperons on the Firestar for maximizing the slow speed landing and takeoff performance. I know very well that ALL Kolb aircraft have very good STOL performance. But some of the short wing models used flaperons, and although I'm sure it is less "necessary" on the long wing Kolbs it may yield a little shorter ground roll. What I'm looking to learn is how the mechanism works, how easy/hard it is to incorporate it into the Firestar, and what control deflection amounts worked or didn't work. If someone has direct comparison experience, such as "the flaperons on the Slingshot did X, Y, and Z but on the Firestar they only do A, B, and C and it's not worth it"... OR if their experience is "the Firestar is already a STOL rocket and the flaperons make it fly even slower and take off faster!!!" that would be most welcome. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:29 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I don't know how much you weigh, but the 447 FF was a regular rocket with my 180 lbs. I really could not tell much difference between using flaps or not, so I didn't use them. I I don't know what kind of approach and departure you have. Kind of remember it is going to be one way in and one way out. Unless you have really tall trees at the threshold you may not have problems. You can also shoot your approach at 90 degrees if that option is clear and you can get down lower. That's the secret for a short field. To be able to get down low at the threshold. I flew my Ultrastar off 600 feet, but had pretty good approach and a 25 mph stall. If it was me, I'd take my time and emphasize to myself that I did not have to land until everything felt 100%. If it didn't, I'd go somewhere else and land, do some more homework, and try again. One cannot make the airplane do something it does not want to do. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons John, On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or that the affect was minimal? So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take off with any flap applied. As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new. Thanks, Stuart Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:05 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Lithium Batteries From: "wakataka" When you ran out of juice, did it permanently kill the battery, or were you able to keep using it? -------- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456801#456801 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:02 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons In summer clothes I am probably close to 220. I know the FF will climb like a homesick angel at 40 MPH indicated, but that steep of an angle makes me nervous. For one thing your reflexes have to be really quick should the engine sputter. I like 50 better. You are right, the plan is to take off to the north where the trees are shorter and a 30 degree right turn will put me out over open fields. Landing to the south would be a 30 degree turn from a weird shaped base to final. On the south end of the field the trees are taller but there is a gap to squeak through in an emergency. Last year at Y19 I practiced on 400' of grass between the taxi way and the main runway. 150' wide and 1000'+ on either end, so I had to imagine my obstacles. The current plan is to take off to the north and turn away from the trees toward the open area as soon as possible. Then circle around and start making approaches and getting a "feel" for the visual clues and angles needed. If I can't get comfortable enough to land in the first 30 minutes, I will still have enough fuel to easily get back to Y19. On the FF does the use of full flaps reduce your approach speed or just steepen the angle? I like going as slow as possible for touchdown and the idea of staying up a little higher, then "dropping" in gives the added bonus of extra height for engine problems. But it is also something else to possible complicate things when you least need them complicated. :) In my case, if flaps don't lower the approach speed or significantly shorten the takeoff roll, I don't see much need for them as an angled approach will keep me in the clear. I am getting anxious to get out and try it. Thanks for the input. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:54 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons I don't know how much you weigh, but the 447 FF was a regular rocket with my 180 lbs. I really could not tell much difference between using flaps or not, so I didn't use them. I I don't know what kind of approach and departure you have. Kind of remember it is going to be one way in and one way out. Unless you have really tall trees at the threshold you may not have problems. You can also shoot your approach at 90 degrees if that option is clear and you can get down lower. That's the secret for a short field. To be able to get down low at the threshold. I flew my Ultrastar off 600 feet, but had pretty good approach and a 25 mph stall. If it was me, I'd take my time and emphasize to myself that I did not have to land until everything felt 100%. If it didn't, I'd go somewhere else and land, do some more homework, and try again. One cannot make the airplane do something it does not want to do. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2016 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons John, On the Firefly, did you find the flaperons did not affect the flying at all or that the affect was minimal? So far I have only tried the first notch and found that it lowered the straight ahead stall speed by maybe 2 MPH and on approach to landing it did seem to steepen the approach. Landing roll seemed to be about the same. Basically it as soon as you go to idle and get the tail down, it stops. I have not tried take off with any flap applied. As I am soon to move to a 600' strip I am most likely to start playing with the flaps more. Any input/stories/advice you have would be greatly appreciated. I like to gather as much input as possible before striking out with something new. Thanks, Stuart Serenity-447-3 blade WARP-Fat tires and brakes ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Question re: Kolb Flaperons From: Larry Cottrell Perhaps you should take it up to altitude and see what speed indicated that it stalls with the flaps on. That is much preferable to taking someone else's word for what their ff preforms at. Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.