Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Lithium Batteries (west1m)
2. 06:11 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Dennis Souder)
3. 11:35 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
4. 03:39 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
5. 04:55 PM - video (Larry Cottrell)
6. 05:07 PM - Re: video (Russ Kinne)
7. 06:18 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
8. 06:59 PM - Re: video (John Hauck)
9. 07:04 PM - Re: video (Larry Cottrell)
10. 08:47 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
11. 09:09 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
12. 09:30 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
13. 09:53 PM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lithium Batteries |
Seems OK, I put a automotive type batt charger on it and after finding the charging
trouble the batt started the motor with no problem.
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456805#456805
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Hello,
Just woke up from a long nap . big yawn.
Elevators are less prone to flutter because of friction and cables - these
provide dampening. Initiation of flutter is enhanced by looseness in
system.
Piano hinges tend to reduce flutter vs. a pin/hinge system because there is
certain amount of built in friction in piano hinges.
Ailerons with P-P linkage are relative loose compared to elevators; if
ailerons were activated by cables they would probably have less tendency to
flutter.
To reduce flutter tendency in ailerons, one or more of the following would
help.
1. Reduce the weight toward the aft of the aileron, without reducing
stiffness. (little opportunity for enough gain here to make a significant
difference)
2. Move CG of aileron forward. A counter balance would do this.
3. A thicker wall torque tube should help as it increases the
stiffness without moving the CG rearward.
Agree that flaps, etc would not enhance TO of FS very much.
TO sequence: Full power . back stick .. Off you go.
But then again, life has taught me that I could be wrong .
Dennis
Message 3
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Glad you woke up, Dennis.
As I travel around I discover that most Kolb aircraft have elevator cables
that are not snugged up nice and tight like they should be. Many are really
sloppy, but elevator flutter is not a problem.
When I first started flying my MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80
mph. I also had aileron flutter on my Ultrastar and Firestar. I flew the
MKIII to Lakeland, to Homer Kolb's, and to Oshkosh. Did a photo shoot off a
Cessna 208. All these miles being very careful not to get over 80 mph and
stay out of turbulence. I had to fly over 80 for the photo shoot. Kept
getting into flutter. Seemed like it took forever to get it done.
Before Kolb came up with the aileron counterbalance weights for their
Firestar, I was trying everything I could think of to keep out of flutter.
I changed rod end bearings constantly. Finally, Dick Rahill got into
flutter with the FS at S&F. Kolb came up with the counterbalance weights
within days and sent me a set. Once installed, no more flutter at any
airspeed or wind condition. That was 1993. I haven't changed aileron rod
end bearings since then, over 3,000.0 hours ago.
A lot of Kolbs experience rudder flutter, but not if the pilot keeps his
feet planted on the rudder pedals. I fixed my rudder flutter problem with
an extra set of heavy rudder pedal springs. Now I can fly feet on the deck
without fear of rudder flutter.
Kolb Aircraft and all of us Kolbers have solved most all problems we have
encountered with them. I'm happy with my MKIII. It is a strong aircraft,
well proven, and has a lot of hours and years left in her.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Souder
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hello,
Just woke up from a long nap . big yawn.
Elevators are less prone to flutter because of friction and cables - these
provide dampening. Initiation of flutter is enhanced by looseness in
system.
Piano hinges tend to reduce flutter vs. a pin/hinge system because there is
certain amount of built in friction in piano hinges.
Ailerons with P-P linkage are relative loose compared to elevators; if
ailerons were activated by cables they would probably have less tendency to
flutter.
To reduce flutter tendency in ailerons, one or more of the following would
help.
1. Reduce the weight toward the aft of the aileron, without reducing
stiffness. (little opportunity for enough gain here to make a significant
difference)
2. Move CG of aileron forward. A counter balance would do this.
3. A thicker wall torque tube should help as it increases the
stiffness without moving the CG rearward.
Agree that flaps, etc would not enhance TO of FS very much.
TO sequence: Full power . back stick .. Off you go.
But then again, life has taught me that I could be wrong .
Dennis
Message 4
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Well John I am very glad you survived those early days of aileron flutter... in
all likelihood, if it was truly severe flutter you would have lost an aileron
or a wing within a very short time. Flutter has destroyed airplanes a whole lot
heavier and stronger than a Kolb.
The counterbalances are probably very well worthwhile. I plan to balance my ailerons,
even though it does not show the balances on the plans I have. My plans
are dated 1993, and the Kolb factory had recently replied to me that there have
been no updates to those plans or the build manual. So I am surprised that
the "current" plans show no aileron balance. John, Dennis... is there anything
that the Kolb factory should have told me that they forgot to mention?
One of the things I want to do is to drive the ailerons (and flaps) from their
centers instead of their ends. Of course this means I have to put bellcranks in
the wing, but I believe it is WELL worth the extra 8 ounces of aluminum. Driving
the ailerons from the center will reduce or perhaps eliminate the twisting
of the ailerons that I have read so much about. The central control horn will
also allow me to put part or all of the balance weight there.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
When I first started flying my
MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80 mph.
Message 5
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While you guy's are fluttering around trying to find problems for your
solutions, I am doing a bit of flying. :-)
It is the time of the year to find my other interest other than flying and
that is falcons. The young should soon be at their most noisy and visible
stage of growth. The Firestar is the next best platform to find them, as
well as the most fun.
I had a rather rare species of Falcon come by the house to visit with my
falcon the other day, and he tweaked my interest. They generally do not
venture further than about 16 miles from their nesting area, and the Owyhee
Canyons at Rome are close enough for him to be living there. A grand excuse
to go flying. Of course all of you have seen various parts of this flight
in some of my other video's so it is in essence a rerun.
Larry
https://vimeo.com/169302818 password- owyheeflyer
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 6
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Larry - another beautiful video.
Thank you most sincerely
Russ Kinne
> On Jun 3, 2016, at 7:55 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> While you guy's are fluttering around trying to find problems for your
solutions, I am doing a bit of flying. :-)
>
> It is the time of the year to find my other interest other than flying
and that is falcons. The young should soon be at their most noisy and
visible stage of growth. The Firestar is the next best platform to find
them, as well as the most fun.
>
> I had a rather rare species of Falcon come by the house to visit with
my falcon the other day, and he tweaked my interest. They generally do
not venture further than about 16 miles from their nesting area, and the
Owyhee Canyons at Rome are close enough for him to be living there. A
grand excuse to go flying. Of course all of you have seen various parts
of this flight in some of my other video's so it is in essence a rerun.
> Larry
>
> https://vimeo.com/169302818 <https://vimeo.com/169302818> password-
owyheeflyer
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
I have experienced severe flutter in my MKIII, FS, and US. I consider flutter
severe when it snatches the stick out of your hand. Kolbs are extremely strong
airplanes, if built to factory specs. If not, I would have experienced catastrophic
failure.
The Factory counterbalance weights are not worthwhile. They are necessary.
You'll have to contact the Factory if you have a problem with plans. Did you buy
a new FS from the Factory?
The twist you have heard about is extremely minor.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Well John I am very glad you survived those early days of aileron flutter... in
all likelihood, if it was truly severe flutter you would have lost an aileron
or a wing within a very short time. Flutter has destroyed airplanes a whole lot
heavier and stronger than a Kolb.
The counterbalances are probably very well worthwhile. I plan to balance my ailerons,
even though it does not show the balances on the plans I have. My plans
are dated 1993, and the Kolb factory had recently replied to me that there have
been no updates to those plans or the build manual. So I am surprised that
the "current" plans show no aileron balance. John, Dennis... is there anything
that the Kolb factory should have told me that they forgot to mention?
One of the things I want to do is to drive the ailerons (and flaps) from their
centers instead of their ends. Of course this means I have to put bellcranks in
the wing, but I believe it is WELL worth the extra 8 ounces of aluminum. Driving
the ailerons from the center will reduce or perhaps eliminate the twisting
of the ailerons that I have read so much about. The central control horn will
also allow me to put part or all of the balance weight there.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
When I first started flying my
MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80 mph.
Message 8
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Larry C/Kolbers:
Damn fine video. I enjoyed the flight.
I have had the pleasure of making many similar flights in my MKIII.
I miss flying it in Jordan Valley, the Owyhee, the Steens, and the
Alvord.
I don't miss the 24 flight hours it takes me to get from Gantt
International Airport to the Rock House and the 24 flight hours to get
back home.
Think that was one of your better clips.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Cottrell
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 6:55 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: video
While you guy's are fluttering around trying to find problems for your
solutions, I am doing a bit of flying. :-)
It is the time of the year to find my other interest other than flying
and that is falcons. The young should soon be at their most noisy and
visible stage of growth. The Firestar is the next best platform to find
them, as well as the most fun.
I had a rather rare species of Falcon come by the house to visit with my
falcon the other day, and he tweaked my interest. They generally do not
venture further than about 16 miles from their nesting area, and the
Owyhee Canyons at Rome are close enough for him to be living there. A
grand excuse to go flying. Of course all of you have seen various parts
of this flight in some of my other video's so it is in essence a rerun.
Larry
https://vimeo.com/169302818 password- owyheeflyer
--
The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.
If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
Message 9
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Perhaps it was because I didn't narrate it. :-)
Larry
On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 7:59 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Larry C/Kolbers:
>
>
> Damn fine video. I enjoyed the flight.
>
>
> I have had the pleasure of making many similar flights in my MKIII.
>
>
> I miss flying it in Jordan Valley, the Owyhee, the Steens, and the Alvord.
>
>
> I don't miss the 24 flight hours it takes me to get from Gantt
> International Airport to the Rock House and the 24 flight hours to get back
> home.
>
>
> Think that was one of your better clips.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Larry Cottrell
> *Sent:* Friday, June 03, 2016 6:55 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: video
>
>
> While you guy's are fluttering around trying to find problems for your
> solutions, I am doing a bit of flying. :-)
>
>
> It is the time of the year to find my other interest other than flying and
> that is falcons. The young should soon be at their most noisy and visible
> stage of growth. The Firestar is the next best platform to find them, as
> well as the most fun.
>
>
> I had a rather rare species of Falcon come by the house to visit with my
> falcon the other day, and he tweaked my interest. They generally do not
> venture further than about 16 miles from their nesting area, and the Owyhee
> Canyons at Rome are close enough for him to be living there. A grand excuse
> to go flying. Of course all of you have seen various parts of this flight
> in some of my other video's so it is in essence a rerun.
>
> Larry
>
>
> https://vimeo.com/169302818 password- owyheeflyer
>
>
> --
>
> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
> others.*
>
>
> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
> address before sending.*
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 10
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Hi John and Kolb list members,
I bought a used kit from the second owner. I contacted Kolb during the purchase,
and Bryan was very very helpful... he indicdated that he would support the project
and sell me any parts that were needed. EXCELLENT "customer support", even
for someone who did not buy the kit from them.
I sent an e-mail to them letting them know this was FireStar kit # 636 (hand written
in the build manual), and the number F1203 was also stamped on the engine
mount upper tube. I later learned that this is the "cage number".
I sent an e-mail to Helen at the Kolb factory with the dates and revision number
on the plans and build manual. She sent me an e-mail saying that I had the most
current versions.
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one drawing of the aileron. I
looked at it twice or three times to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current plans, and those plans
do not show a critical safety upgrade ... where am I going wrong?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, June 3, 2016, 6:17 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
I have experienced severe flutter in my MKIII, FS, and
US. I consider flutter severe when it snatches the
stick out of your hand. Kolbs are extremely strong
airplanes, if built to factory specs. If not, I would
have experienced catastrophic failure.
The Factory counterbalance weights are not worthwhile.
They are necessary.
You'll have to contact the Factory if you have a problem
with plans. Did you buy a new FS from the Factory?
The twist you have heard about is extremely minor.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 5:39 PM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Well John I am very glad you survived those early days of
aileron flutter... in all likelihood, if it was truly severe
flutter you would have lost an aileron or a wing within a
very short time. Flutter has destroyed airplanes a whole lot
heavier and stronger than a Kolb.
The counterbalances are probably very well worthwhile. I
plan to balance my ailerons, even though it does not show
the balances on the plans I have. My plans are dated 1993,
and the Kolb factory had recently replied to me that there
have been no updates to those plans or the build manual. So
I am surprised that the "current" plans show no aileron
balance. John, Dennis... is there anything that the Kolb
factory should have told me that they forgot to mention?
One of the things I want to do is to drive the ailerons (and
flaps) from their centers instead of their ends. Of course
this means I have to put bellcranks in the wing, but I
believe it is WELL worth the extra 8 ounces of aluminum.
Driving the ailerons from the center will reduce or perhaps
eliminate the twisting of the ailerons that I have read so
much about. The central control horn will also allow me to
put part or all of the balance weight there.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
When I first started flying my
MKIII I had severe aileron flutter over 80 mph.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Thought you were going to change the ailerons and design your own counterbalance
weights?
My FS Manual is dated 1986. No aileron counterbalance weights. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 10:44 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi John and Kolb list members,
I bought a used kit from the second owner. I contacted Kolb during the purchase,
and Bryan was very very helpful... he indicdated that he would support the project
and sell me any parts that were needed. EXCELLENT "customer support", even
for someone who did not buy the kit from them.
I sent an e-mail to them letting them know this was FireStar kit # 636 (hand written
in the build manual), and the number F1203 was also stamped on the engine
mount upper tube. I later learned that this is the "cage number".
I sent an e-mail to Helen at the Kolb factory with the dates and revision number
on the plans and build manual. She sent me an e-mail saying that I had the most
current versions.
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one drawing of the aileron. I
looked at it twice or three times to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current plans, and those plans
do not show a critical safety upgrade ... where am I going wrong?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 12
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Whatever modifications I am considering, or designing, or doing, are one thing.
Having the correct information about the aircraft,a nd having the information
about what others have succeeded or failed with, is another thing. They are
not mutually exclusive.
I'm really sorry that my attempts at ingenuity (or customizing my Kolb like so
many others have customized theirs) seems to rattle everyone's cage, The archives
and people's build logs show a lot of customizing, improvement, and addressing
weaknesses or room for improvement in the basic design.
But where the safety of an aircraft, its piilot, or even people on the ground are
concerned, we need to put all that aside and address any and all safety issues..I
can say with absolute authority that this is what real aviators do.
My plans are dated 1993, no aileron counterweight. Can anyone explain WHY?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, June 3, 2016, 9:09 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Thought you were going to change the ailerons and design
your own counterbalance weights?
My FS Manual is dated 1986. No aileron counterbalance
weights. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 10:44 PM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi John and Kolb list members,
I bought a used kit from the second owner. I contacted Kolb
during the purchase, and Bryan was very very helpful... he
indicdated that he would support the project and sell me any
parts that were needed. EXCELLENT "customer support", even
for someone who did not buy the kit from them.
I sent an e-mail to them letting them know this was FireStar
kit # 636 (hand written in the build manual), and the number
F1203 was also stamped on the engine mount upper tube. I
later learned that this is the "cage number".
I sent an e-mail to Helen at the Kolb factory with the dates
and revision number on the plans and build manual. She sent
me an e-mail saying that I had the most current versions.
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one
drawing of the aileron. I looked at it twice or three times
to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current
plans, and those plans do not show a critical safety upgrade
... where am I going wrong?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit entities
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
I don't think the aileron counterbalance weights existed for the FS in 1993. That
is probably why they didn't make your Builders Manual and Plans.
Kolb Aircraft, to the best of my knowledge, expedited design, manufacture, and
distribution of counterbalance weights as soon as they discovered the need for
them, probably 1994.
I haven't seen a FS Manual or Plans since 1986, when I built my FS.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Whatever modifications I am considering, or designing, or doing, are one thing.
Having the correct information about the aircraft,a nd having the information
about what others have succeeded or failed with, is another thing. They are
not mutually exclusive.
I'm really sorry that my attempts at ingenuity (or customizing my Kolb like so
many others have customized theirs) seems to rattle everyone's cage, The archives
and people's build logs show a lot of customizing, improvement, and addressing
weaknesses or room for improvement in the basic design.
But where the safety of an aircraft, its piilot, or even people on the ground are
concerned, we need to put all that aside and address any and all safety issues..I
can say with absolute authority that this is what real aviators do.
My plans are dated 1993, no aileron counterweight. Can anyone explain WHY?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, June 3, 2016, 9:09 PM
"John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
Thought you were going to change the ailerons and design your own counterbalance
weights?
My FS Manual is dated 1986. No aileron counterbalance weights. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 10:44 PM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi John and Kolb list members,
I bought a used kit from the second owner. I contacted Kolb during the purchase,
and Bryan was very very helpful... he indicdated that he would support the
project and sell me any parts that were needed. EXCELLENT "customer support",
even for someone who did not buy the kit from them.
I sent an e-mail to them letting them know this was FireStar kit # 636 (hand
written in the build manual), and the number
F1203 was also stamped on the engine mount upper tube. I later learned that this
is the "cage number".
I sent an e-mail to Helen at the Kolb factory with the dates and revision number
on the plans and build manual. She sent me an e-mail saying that I had the
most current versions.
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one drawing of the aileron.
I looked at it twice or three times to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current plans, and those
plans do not show a critical safety upgrade ... where am I going wrong?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for
non-profit and for-profit entities
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