Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:53 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (racerjerry)
2. 04:51 AM - Aileron mods...and infinity.... (Herb)
3. 05:23 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
4. 06:20 AM - Flutter (Ted Cowan)
5. 06:22 AM - Kolb FSll cage dimensions (clanon)
6. 07:01 AM - Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (william sullivan)
7. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (Bill Berle)
8. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report (John Hauck)
9. 08:45 AM - Kolb mods... (Herb)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you could no longer
purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was available from the factory.
The 1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II. Actually,
page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other pages had been
revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not, you should
have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B. Since the aileron
counterbalance was added at a later date, it was shown separately, on page
24. You may have missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences of your proposed
aileron control modification. Where are you going to attach your pulley
brackets? You need to be careful where you place extra holes in the wing spar
and also be wary of any concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron controls are trouble
free and no real benefit will come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that I made a
"few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control system taken from the
Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Message 2
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| Subject: | Aileron mods...and infinity.... |
Bill
You might study the method used to build the newer Kolb MkIII
wing...I think they use Bowden cables to actuate the ailerons and to
preserve the wing fold option...This method allowed the aileron to have
a bell crank in the middle.. That was years ago...and from my
memory...Saw it at the factory at Norm Labhart field...and haven't heard
if it was just a one off or if that method is still being used...
I suspect , in your case, it might set off a series of changes? Herb
On 06/04/2016 05:52 AM, racerjerry wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
>
> My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you could no longer
purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was available from the factory.
The 1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II. Actually,
page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other pages had been
revised in 1993.
>
> Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not, you should
have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B. Since the aileron
counterbalance was added at a later date, it was shown separately, on page
24. You may have missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
>
> Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences of your
proposed aileron control modification. Where are you going to attach your pulley
brackets? You need to be careful where you place extra holes in the wing
spar and also be wary of any concentration of stress.
>
> With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron controls are
trouble free and no real benefit will come from their modification.
>
> Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that I made
a "few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control system taken from
the Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
>
>
--
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies
give way to tyranny."
Aristotle
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Good advice, Jerry K.
Thanks for the info. Clears up a few things for me.
Attached is a photo from one of our Monument Valley Flyins. Glad we had the
opportunity to do those.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 5:53 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you could no
longer purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was available from the
factory. The 1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II.
Actually, page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other
pages had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not, you
should have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B. Since
the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date, it was shown
separately, on page 24. You may have missed this detail or may be missing
the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences of
your proposed aileron control modification. Where are you going to attach
your pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you place extra holes in
the wing spar and also be wary of any concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron controls
are trouble free and no real benefit will come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that I
made a "few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control system
taken from the Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Message 4
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I have a 12 year old kolb slingshot with 912 ul 80 hp rotax. I only have abt 800
hrs on af and 400 on engine. At the advise of hawk i doubled up on hor/vert
wires on tail section and they are tight but still can traverse forward and
aft if elevator wants to shift it. Again at hawks advice i installed the rudder
hinges in X style which is time consuming and tricky (see in archives). Elevator
built according to plans and plexiglass trim on them. (Why would they
need extra plates???). Ails have counter balancers and op rod at base as usual.
(Again, why would u go through all that trouble to op them at center of ail???).
This aint a model that goes two hundred. Other than engine is lifted in
rear to make flying line correct- was miscalculated at factory. Needs to be
lifted 1 3/4 to 2 inches in rear of engine above motor mounts. Contact me if
you need further advise on this. (Only slingshots). I have been to 115 mph and
normally cruise at 95 with spirts to 100. No flutter. No nastyness. Albeit
a bit touch on the stick but this set up is nit for the chichenhearted. I think
hawk would love flying this zoomer. Having had over a thousand hrs on my original
firestar, several other kolb types and multiple other brands i can say
Homer knew what he was doing and if you stick with basics, you have a great little
plane. When you start modifying, cutting, adding weight, etc., you might
crear a monster (as sheeting the leading edge) that not only was not worth the
effort but can get down right dangerous. If you decide to make changes, please
do yourself and your future widow a favor and have someone else test it!!!!
Sent from my iPhone
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kolb FSll cage dimensions |
HI , trying to get the stock dimensions for the Kolb FSll cage ...(length , height
,width)
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Thankz
PS: a drawing would be great too!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456848#456848
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| Subject: | Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Bill- Until recently, I had an original 5 rib wing Firestar with a 447. It was
so old there wasn't a serial number, so a guess would be about 1986. It had
"barn door ailerons", and had never had counterweights. The only noticeable
thing was a loose rod end.
As far as building a flying machine, build it to the plans. The counterweight
is not a critical modification. If you need it, they are easy to add later.
Spend your mental energy on the cockpit, making it fit you.
Kolbs are easy to modify, work on, and fly. John Hauck is probably the most
experienced pilot/builder on the List. Others have web sites that are worthwhile
studying. Jack Hart's "Firefly Slide Show" is a valuable resource.
Enjoy
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 6/3/16, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolb Firestar Progress report
My plans DO NOT show any counterweight arm on the one
drawing of the aileron. I looked at it twice or three times
to make sure.
So if Helen at the factory tells me that I have the current
plans, and those plans do not show a critical safety upgrade
... where am I going wrong?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
Thank you Jerry, I will look to see if I have that page in the plans. And thank
you for explaining the plan dates and progression!
For whatever it is worth, falling on deaf ears or not, NONE of the modifications
or customized features that I have EVER even thought about reduce the strength
or safety of the aircraft. Every one of them is intended to mak,e something
more robust, without adding a significant amount of weight.
The gusset plates add stiffness and "tear-out" resistance to the control surfaces.
They are shown on the plans as an optional way to build it, near the back
of the plan set. They are Homer approved. They make the controls a little stronger.
The raked wingtip shape is shown to improve low speed safety and delay "tip stall"
on numerous aircraft. But they also REDUCE the wing area at the wingtip, which
REDUCES the bending loads on the spars and REDUCES the tension loads on the
strut.
The hinge modifications that started this whole problem were to make the airplane
STRONGER and MORE resistant to pulling rivets out. The original hinge method
may be "just fine" but it allows movement and bending in an area that should
be stiffer. Doing the "X pattern" will eliminate that movement or bending, by
simply bracing the hinge to keep it in the same place. SAFER, not risky-er.
Moving the aileron counterbalance toward the center of the aileron REDUCES the
possibility of the aileron acting like a big spring and twisting back and forth
leading to flutter. It ADDS a little safety margin, it makes me a smaller risk-taker
not a bigger risk-taker.
I'm really sorry again that I have apparently made myself look like an uneducated
hayseed who wants to duct tape the airplane together and bolt a Chevy V8 onto
the fuselage, but that is not the case. The facts do not support pinning that
tail on this donkey.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 6/4/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Saturday, June 4, 2016, 3:52 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date
is when you could no longer purchase a Firestar I and only
the Firestar II was available from the factory. The
1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I &
II. Actually, page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was
reused, but MOST other pages had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev
1? If not, you should have it. Aileron
construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B.
Since the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date,
it was shown separately, on page 24. You may have
missed this detail or may be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended
consequences of your proposed aileron control
modification. Where are you going to attach your
pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you
place extra holes in the wing spar and also be wary of any
concentration of stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb
aileron controls are trouble free and no real benefit will
come from their modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better
knowing that I made a "few" changes myself, including adding
a flaperon control system taken from the Kolb Firefly.
Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report |
To each his own.
Live and let live.
Some folks may like what Bill B is doing, some of us may not. It
doesn't matter.
To be a Kolb List member has nothing to do with acceptance or rejection
of a member's ideas.
Build your FS the way you want to. I'll build mine the way I want to.
If you can build your FS better than my MKIII, have at it. I am
constantly trying to learn from others accomplishments and their
failures.
I included another photo from my flight to the Rock House near Burns
Junction, OR, September 2014. I had just completed this 24.0 flight to
celebrate my 75th year, and to enjoy the company of my Kolb friends that
annually gather there. What a crew!
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2016 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
Thank you Jerry, I will look to see if I have that page in the plans.
And thank you for explaining the plan dates and progression!
For whatever it is worth, falling on deaf ears or not, NONE of the
modifications or customized features that I have EVER even thought about
reduce the strength or safety of the aircraft. Every one of them is
intended to mak,e something more robust, without adding a significant
amount of weight.
The gusset plates add stiffness and "tear-out" resistance to the control
surfaces. They are shown on the plans as an optional way to build it,
near the back of the plan set. They are Homer approved. They make the
controls a little stronger.
The raked wingtip shape is shown to improve low speed safety and delay
"tip stall" on numerous aircraft. But they also REDUCE the wing area at
the wingtip, which REDUCES the bending loads on the spars and REDUCES
the tension loads on the strut.
The hinge modifications that started this whole problem were to make the
airplane STRONGER and MORE resistant to pulling rivets out. The original
hinge method may be "just fine" but it allows movement and bending in an
area that should be stiffer. Doing the "X pattern" will eliminate that
movement or bending, by simply bracing the hinge to keep it in the same
place. SAFER, not risky-er.
Moving the aileron counterbalance toward the center of the aileron
REDUCES the possibility of the aileron acting like a big spring and
twisting back and forth leading to flutter. It ADDS a little safety
margin, it makes me a smaller risk-taker not a bigger risk-taker.
I'm really sorry again that I have apparently made myself look like an
uneducated hayseed who wants to duct tape the airplane together and bolt
a Chevy V8 onto the fuselage, but that is not the case. The facts do not
support pinning that tail on this donkey.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 6/4/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb Firestar Progress report
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Saturday, June 4, 2016, 3:52 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Hi Bill,
I hope that I can clear some things up for you.
My Kolb Firestar plans are also dated 1993. This date is when you
could no longer purchase a Firestar I and only the Firestar II was
available from the factory. The
1993 plans reprint was made to cover both Firestar I & II. Actually,
page 1 is still dated Dec. 1991 and was reused, but MOST other pages
had been revised in 1993.
Do you have page 24 with copyright date of Dec. 1993, Rev 1? If not,
you should have it. Aileron construction is shown on pages 10A & 10B.
Since the aileron counterbalance was added at a later date, it was
shown separately, on page 24. You may have missed this detail or may
be missing the page entirely.
Forgive me, but I must also caution you about unintended consequences
of your proposed aileron control modification. Where are you going to
attach your pulley brackets? You need to be careful where you place
extra holes in the wing spar and also be wary of any concentration of
stress.
With the addition of an aileron counterbalance, the Kolb aileron
controls are trouble free and no real benefit will come from their
modification.
Now after that sermon, maybe it will make you feel better knowing that
I made a "few" changes myself, including adding a flaperon control
system taken from the Kolb Firefly. Good luck, my friend.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456841#456841
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 9
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I think that one of the things that happens with any "mature design" is
that cost gets out of hand in comparison to what is on the current
market... and a perceived value for the bucks!!
$500 spar and boom tubes seems excessive and the number of suppliers
is small...I think that most if not all cro molly is made in China....or
maybe some in Germany...
A design needs to change to adsorb new materials and construction
techniques...otherwise the used market will kill the company.....I sold
three Fireflys....none for over 11k...and one with an enclosed
trailer...(wish I had that one back!!)
9500 Slingshot...with high time engine....8500 MkIII with no
engine...show winner Mini Max for 5k.... and made good bucks on all....
I think Mark Twain said it best..."Wilbur,Orville; don't listen to
the yahoo's....do it your way...no one will know the difference since it
has never been done before"! :-) frugal Herb
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