---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 06/05/16: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:56 AM - Re: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications (Bill Berle) 2. 05:46 AM - Re: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications (Richard Pike) 3. 10:00 AM - Re: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications (Rex Rodebush) 4. 11:04 AM - STOL Bush Kolb (mikemac) 5. 11:30 AM - Re: STOL Bush Kolb (Larry Cottrell) 6. 11:51 AM - Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering (Duane Ransdell) 7. 12:24 PM - Re: Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines (Russ Kinne) 8. 06:00 PM - Re: Kolb FSll cage dimensions (Richard Pike) 9. 06:52 PM - Re: Re: Kolb FSll cage dimensions (Bill Berle) 10. 07:08 PM - Re: STOL Bush Kolb (Bill Berle) 11. 08:39 PM - Re: STOL Bush Kolb (Richard Girard) 12. 09:11 PM - Re: STOL Bush Kolb (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:55 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications Racer Jerry, thank you again. I did indeed find the later addendum in the plans that shows the aileron counterbalance. The information and drawing was right where you said they would be, on Page 24. So that now verifies what I had suspected, the FireStar does indeed need and/or benefit from the counterbalances. So whether I build stock ailerons or center-driven ailerons, they need to be balanced. Just to be able to calibrate myself and stay out of trouble, would one of the more experienced members on this list please post a detailed listing of which modifications are OK for me to discuss here and which ones are not. I see several modifications mentioned by others, but it seems that it is a big problem when I want to discuss them. Somebody give me a hand and explain which people are approved to talk about upgrading/strengnthening/problem-solving, and which problems or weak spots are approved to be mentioned or actually discussed. It's kind of mysterious to me. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:53 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications From: "Richard Pike" If you are thick skinned enough, you can talk about anything you want. For instance, when I came out (pardon the expression) with putting my gas tank in the upper center section of the wing, I had several people crawl all over me because if I turned the airplane upside down in a bad crash, it would break the tank, and nobody with any sense would do it that way. Yeah, whatever, go look at some pictures of the deHaviland Tiger Moth. In hindsight, spending the time & money to put the tank directly behind the seats would have been less hassle over the years, but as long as you keep ethanol away from it and use top quality fuel line, it does OK up top. At one time vortex generators were a source of lively contention, but that seems to have settled down. But none of that directly answers your question, so here goes: Unmentionable? Ferguson aircraft, period. Posting anything about the Fergy is like asking Muslims about the Fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Christ... Restricted? Seafoam postings are only permissible on six month intervals. Known problems? FS & FSII lower landing gear/axle fittings. Tubing wall is too thin and will break in a hard landing. Modify, update or plan on bad things to happen, your choice. Early gear legs that don't go far enough up into the gear leg sockets. Hard landings will bend or break the socket. Twinstar fuselages at the rear fuselage attach point are marginal. I have seen them break when abused. Not sure exactly why, perhaps the H section insert at that point is not the same as on the FSII? Don't know. The MKIII horizontal tail does not have as much control authority as you would wish if you are carrying a heavy passenger and using a lot of flaps. A decent flare at low airspeeds (exacerbated by vortex generators) in this condition is very problematic. Solution is to gap seal the elevators to the stabilizers and add vg's the the underside of the horizontal stab. The rudder post below the fuselage needs to be braced to support side loads generated by the tail wheel on rough ground. That's all I can think of at the moment, maybe some of the other old timers can add to this list? -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456870#456870 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:51 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Counterbalance / Kolb Modifications From: "Rex Rodebush" Just a comment on the Mark III horiz. stabilizers. I have an early Xtra in which a few months after I bought the kit the stabilizers were enlarged. Some time later they went back to the "standard size". I asked Norm at the time if I should change them back and he said don't bother. I have done a full stall landing with a 220# passenger. I weigh around 185#. No problems on the flair. Don't know if the larger stab. had any effect or not. BTW. My CG is on the aft border line. Rex Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456875#456875 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:29 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb From: "mikemac" Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's. 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 to present. I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way to go. Goals: STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no wind the better. I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around. My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight. I want the largest Bush Gear possible. With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL? I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. Does the FS 1 and FS 2 have the same wing area? I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the more wing area the better. I am totally open to suggestions. If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. Mike MacPherson Pequea PA. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:22 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb If you can find a Firestar I in good condition I would prefer it to a Firestar II. A friend of mine has one, and it will out perform mine any day for what you are talking about. It is a bit faster as well. It will need VG's, stronger gear legs, bigger tires, and a bigger gas tank, but that is all. Larry .https://vimeo.com/69917549 password - owyheeflyer On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:03 PM, mikemac wrote: > > Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. > I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's. > 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. > Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 > to present. > > I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way > to go. > Goals: STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no > wind the better. I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around. > My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight. > I want the largest Bush Gear possible. > With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL? > I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. > Does the FS 1 and FS 2 have the same wing area? > I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the > more wing area the better. > I am totally open to suggestions. > If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am > interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where > to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear > sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be > appreciated. > Mike MacPherson > Pequea PA. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879 > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:51:46 AM PST US From: Duane Ransdell Subject: Kolb-List: Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering Mark your calendars; the Annual Nebraska Ultralight Gathering is being held on July 22nd (Friday) through July 24th (Sunday) this year at David City Nebraska. This is the weekend prior to Airventure, but it coincides with the local county fair and we're hoping we'll catch some of you on your way through. Airport 93Y just south of David City, NE Coordinates: 41-13-49.3000 N / 097-07-21.0000 W CTAF 122.900 - Pizza Friday evening - Hamburgers and Hotdog BBQ Saturday Noon - Watermelon feed (and more BBQ) Saturday evening - Staged Manhunt celebrating the great manhunt of 2015 - Camping available on the North West corner of the field - 100LL and 87 car gas available - Any and all forms of aircraft welcome Questions or comments contact Duane Ransdell - radiobluebook@gmail.com. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Official Kolb-List Usage Guidelines From: Russ Kinne Matt - trying to post an ad on the Kolb list & the website is driving me nuts Can you help me? Thanx, fair winds, Russ Kinne > On Jun 2, 2016, at 2:36 AM, Matt Dralle wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > Please read over the Kolb-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete > Kolb-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the > following URL: > > http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Kolb-List.FAQ.html > > Thank you, > > Matt Dralle > Matronics Email List Administrator > > > > > ****************************************************************************** > Kolb-List Usage Guidelines > ****************************************************************************** > > The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Kolb-List. > You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. > Failure to use the Kolb-List in the manner described below may result > in the removal of the subscribers from the List. > > > Kolb-List Policy Statement > > The purpose of the Kolb-List is to provide a forum of discussion for > things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals > are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver > high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie > among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals > requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of > the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: > > > - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit > posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long > lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. > > - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be > relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. > > - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive > that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and > terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and > responses. > > - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, > aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line > about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid > bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary > space in the archive. > > - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is > easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the > web page or FAQ first. > > - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of > your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it > easy to find threads in the archive. > > - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your > response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the > reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that > quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive > can not be overstated! > > - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT > then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the > "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your > response to the original poster. You might have to actively address > your response with the original poster's email address. > > - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something > to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I > agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent > to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. > > - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to > comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly > contribute something valuable. > > - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone > polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack > other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously > controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that > will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. > > - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly > subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by > List members promoting their respective products or items for sale > should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble > a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but > is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to > everyone, including those who provide products to the entire > community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the > operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. > > ------- > > > [This is an automated posting.] > > do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:14 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb FSll cage dimensions From: "Richard Pike" Don't have a drawing, but the length is approximately 94" from just behind the boom through bolt to the bottom front, the width at the upper cross member directly behind the seat is 25 1/4" outside to outside, and measuring on sort of an angle from the bottom of the fuselage directly below that cross member to the top of the front spar carry through is 45". Not guaranteed to be exact, only approximate. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456893#456893 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:31 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb FSll cage dimensions If there are specific measurements you want I will be able to go to the hangar Tuesday night and get those measurements. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/5/16, Richard Pike wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb FSll cage dimensions To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 5:59 PM "Richard Pike" Don't have a drawing, but the length is approximately 94" from just behind the boom through bolt to the bottom front, the width at the upper cross member directly behind the seat is 25 1/4" outside to outside, and measuring on sort of an angle from the bottom of the fuselage directly below that cross member to the top of the front spar carry through is 45". Not guaranteed to be exact, only approximate. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456893#456893 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:36 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb I am in almost the same position and desire as you. No Kolb experience but a reasonable amount of experimental airplane experience. I am building a Firestar 2 kit. I got a good deal on an HKS engine, which is apparently one of the better choices for this aircraft. STOL takeoff capability is determined by the balance between three things on ANY aircraft: 1) The amount of lift your wing can make, which includes the lift coefficient of the airfoil, the amount of wing area you have to make lift out of airspeed, and also usually includes the angle of attack you have available for takeoff. 2 The mass of the aircraft, which determines how fast you accelerate, and also determines the minimum speed at which the wing needs to go in order to make enough lift to fly. 3) The thrust available to accelerate that given mass to the magic speed. Improving any one of these three factors will shorten a takeoff roll, and/or reduce the speed you need to fly. So by all rights and reason, for any airplane that operates within the laws of physics, to achieve your goal you need to minimize weight/mass because that affects two important things at once... then you need to maximize lift (which includes anything from the vortex generators to flaperon setting, to gap seals, to taller landing gear legs)... and then you need to maximize thrust (which is fairly easy if you don't need to go fast... get the better quality and advanced design prop and adjust prop pitch for the highest low speed thrust). Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 6/5/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 11:03 AM "mikemac" Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's. 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider Trikes since 2002 to present. I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the Kolb is the way to go. Goals:STOL is top priority. The slower I can take off and land in no wind the better.I love to fly Low & Slow just boating around. My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any weight. I want the largest Bush Gear possible. With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL? I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. Does the FS 1 and FS 2 have the same wing area? I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve my goals the more wing area the better. I am totally open to suggestions. If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. Mike MacPherson Pequea PA. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:34 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb You left out reducing drag. Same result as increasing thrust. One very good way to do that is to seal the rudder end of the boom tube. See the attached photo. The Winter ASI just below the altimeter is connect to a tube measuring airflow coming back up the boom tube. At 72 mph indicated the wind flowing back up the boom is moving at 25 mph. That's a fair amount of drag to delete. Rick Girard On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > I am in almost the same position and desire as you. No Kolb experience bu t > a reasonable amount of experimental airplane experience. > > I am building a Firestar 2 kit. I got a good deal on an HKS engine, which > is apparently one of the better choices for this aircraft. > > STOL takeoff capability is determined by the balance between three things > on ANY aircraft: > > 1) The amount of lift your wing can make, which includes the lift > coefficient of the airfoil, the amount of wing area you have to make lift > out of airspeed, and also usually includes the angle of attack you have > available for takeoff. > > 2 The mass of the aircraft, which determines how fast you accelerate, and > also determines the minimum speed at which the wing needs to go in order to > make enough lift to fly. > > 3) The thrust available to accelerate that given mass to the magic speed. > > Improving any one of these three factors will shorten a takeoff roll, > and/or reduce the speed you need to fly. > > So by all rights and reason, for any airplane that operates within the > laws of physics, to achieve your goal you need to minimize weight/mass > because that affects two important things at once... then you need to > maximize lift (which includes anything from the vortex generators to > flaperon setting, to gap seals, to taller landing gear legs)... and then > you need to maximize thrust (which is fairly easy if you don't need to go > fast... get the better quality and advanced design prop and adjust prop > pitch for the highest low speed thrust). > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 6/5/16, mikemac wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Sunday, June 5, 2016, 11:03 AM > > "mikemac" > > Experience: Hang Gliders starting in 1976. > I built 4 Terratorn Aircraft in the 80's. > 1 weight shift, 1 Two Axis, & 2 Three axis Tierras. > Foot Launch Powered Paragliders and Powered Paraglider > Trikes since 2002 to present. > > I now want to go back to fixed wing and it looks like the > Kolb is the way to go. > Goals: STOL is top priority. The slower I > can take off and land in no wind the > better. I love to fly Low & Slow just > boating around. > My current weight is 240 Lbs with no hope of losing any > weight. > I want the largest Bush Gear possible. > With a Rotax 503 what is the best prop for STOL? > I am considering the FS 1 or FS 2. > Does the FS 1 and FS 2 have the same wing area? > I am not interested in the Firefly as I believe to achieve > my goals the more wing area the better. > I am totally open to suggestions. > If anyone has any pictures, videos, links to people who have > what I am interested in doing I would love to hear from you. > Any information on where to strengthen any of the areas on > the Kolb such as the landing gear sockets, landing gear, > rudder post, tail wheel etc. etc would be appreciated. > Mike MacPherson > Pequea PA. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=456879#456879 > > > Forum - > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt > Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:08 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Girard Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2016 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: STOL Bush Kolb You left out reducing drag. Same result as increasing thrust. One very good way to do that is to seal the rudder end of the boom tube. See the attached photo. The Winter ASI just below the altimeter is connect to a tube measuring airflow coming back up the boom tube. At 72 mph indicated the wind flowing back up the boom is moving at 25 mph. That's a fair amount of drag to delete. Rick Girard Rick G/Kolbers: Did you block the tail boom? How much airspeed did the aircraft pick up? Which end of the tail boom did you block? Does it make a difference which end to block? Which end is most effective? I know a lot of cold air comes through the tail boom and up the back of my neck. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.