---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/20/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Noise Reduction (JC Gilpin) 2. 06:36 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Russ Kinne) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Richard Pike) 4. 07:47 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Charlie England) 5. 07:59 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (B Young) 6. 08:14 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Larry Cottrell) 7. 09:03 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Charlie England) 8. 09:42 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Larry Cottrell) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Rick Neilsen) 10. 10:40 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Charlie England) 11. 11:07 AM - Re: Noise Reduction (Larry Cottrell) 12. 01:15 PM - Re: Noise Reduction (Gary Aman) 13. 02:02 PM - Re: Noise Reduction (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:01 AM PST US From: JC Gilpin Subject: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction I don't know if that forwarded earmold info will get through on the list, so will re-post it here. We all know how noisy it is to fly right in front of a 2-stroke. This earmold might be an answer. Seems like the way to go would be to wear these earmolds under regular earmuffs, so have double noise insulation but the radio piped right into the ears. http://www.airhawk.com.au/product_details.php? This is the Australian distributor, but I expect all that stuff is imported from the US, so must be available over there at a much better price, but I can't find the earmolds on the US Airhawk site.... JG ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:55 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction JG I googled Earmold and they sell for $23.50 here. Lemme know the next time you need some & I can mail them to you at a better price! Russ K > On Jun 20, 2016, at 5:12 AM, JC Gilpin wrote: > > I don't know if that forwarded earmold info will get through on the list, so will re-post it here. > > We all know how noisy it is to fly right in front of a 2-stroke. This earmold might be an answer. Seems like the way to go would be to wear these earmolds under regular earmuffs, so have double noise insulation but the radio piped right into the ears. > > http://www.airhawk.com.au/product_details.php? This is the Australian distributor, but I expect all that stuff is imported from the US, so must be available over there at a much better price, but I can't find the earmolds on the US Airhawk site.... > > JG > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Noise Reduction From: "Richard Pike" I tried the earmold thing a few years back, the way I did it was to use a small ANR earbud headset with a regular aircraft headset over it. Here is the ANR earbud device: http://download.p4c.philips.com/files/s/sbchn060_00/sbchn060_00_pss_enggb.pdf I had my wife help me put the mold material in my ears and then embed the earbuds into the material and wait for it to harden. Worked fairly well for a number of months and then the earmold material hardened up to the point it was uncomfortable. Took the earmold material off and used the little silicone rubber end fittings instead, with a Lightspeed 20XL ANR headset over the top of that. Once again, it sort of worked, but the excess of wires made it a real nuisance. Not really much of an improvement over the Lightspeed headset by itself, which for whatever reason didn't seem to be able to keep out the prop noise. Last week got a new Gulf Coast Avionics ANR headset, which works better than anything else so far, with a lot less fiddling. I do find the little Phillips ANR device to be very useful for motorcycle riding, it diminishes the wind noise pretty well, and the volume control works well with the .mp3 player as it hangs in front of your chest and you can adjust it with gloves on. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457294#457294 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction From: Charlie England Or, for that price, just buy a case of foam ear plugs. They will seal more consistently and attenuate more volume than the molded stuff. Charlie On 6/20/2016 8:36 AM, Russ Kinne wrote: > JG > I googled Earmold and they sell for $23.50 here. Lemme know the next > time you need some & I can mail them to you at a better price! > Russ K > >> On Jun 20, 2016, at 5:12 AM, JC Gilpin > > wrote: >> >> I don't know if that forwarded earmold info will get through on the >> list, so will re-post it here. >> >> We all know how noisy it is to fly right in front of a 2-stroke. >> This earmold might be an answer. Seems like the way to go would be >> to wear these earmolds under regular earmuffs, so have double noise >> insulation but the radio piped right into the ears. >> >> http://www.airhawk.com.au/product_details.php? This is the Australian >> distributor, but I expect all that stuff is imported from the US, so >> must be available over there at a much better price, but I can't find >> the earmolds on the US Airhawk site.... >> >> JG >> >> > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction From: B Young When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these and been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ Has anyone tried them? Boyd young ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:45 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a set of ear buds to the speakers inside the headphones. This both plugs the ears and puts the sound right in the ear canal. I can assure you that you will turn your volume down. You will still get a lot of noise from the engine and the prop that travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better that AN headphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 Larry On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young wrote: > When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these and > been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. > https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ > Has anyone tried them? > > Boyd young > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:31 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction We might need to define requirements & goals, since several people have posted. A molded plug is still a plug, unless there's a speaker or sound tube embedded in it. Remember that if you use regular earbuds (that don't seal up your ear canal), you won't have any trouble hearing your radio (for a while), but that's because the volume is so much louder than the noise. Eventually, your hearing will be getting worse and worse, because you're still subjecting your ears to ridiculously high volumes. I used something similar to the plugfones under a pair of Lightspeeds for a while, and it's effective, but 'clunky' to deal with. I finally broke down and bought a set of QT Halos http://www.quiettechnologies.com/ that my wife immediately stole, so I had to buy a second set. Note that I fly an RV-4, so I can't address how well they will work in a windy environment. Something like the plugfones, wired into an over-ear headset, might be a good solution since you'd get the block in the ear canal plus the overall protection of the muff. Charlie On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a set of ear > buds to the speakers inside the headphones. This both plugs the ears and > puts the sound right in the ear canal. I can assure you that you will turn > your volume down. You will still get a lot of noise from the engine and the > prop that travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better > that AN headphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 > Larry > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young wrote: > >> When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these and >> been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. >> https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ >> Has anyone tried them? >> >> Boyd young >> > > > -- > *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of > others.* > > *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending.* > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:31 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction Charlie, I bought the Quiet Tech ear buds after your posting the link to them, and found that it was still noisier than I preferred. With the "squeezable foam plugs it was better, but they made my ears itch so bad that I changed to the flexible rubber. I found the mike to be floppy enough that it was a distraction. I finally began putting my headset back on over them just to cut out some of the noise through the bones around my ears. The Quiet buds are in the back of my plane as a spare now. The Sig 40 headset and the speaker buds work better for "me". If I was flying an RV I would go back to the Quiet buds over the other, but the noise factor is much greater in the Kolb. In any case the test for these runs about $12 bucks and some time, my spare set cost in excess of $300. Not complaining, "just saying" Larry On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Charlie England wrote: > We might need to define requirements & goals, since several people have > posted. A molded plug is still a plug, unless there's a speaker or sound > tube embedded in it. > > Remember that if you use regular earbuds (that don't seal up your ear > canal), you won't have any trouble hearing your radio (for a while), but > that's because the volume is so much louder than the noise. Eventually, > your hearing will be getting worse and worse, because you're still > subjecting your ears to ridiculously high volumes. > > I used something similar to the plugfones under a pair of Lightspeeds for > a while, and it's effective, but 'clunky' to deal with. I finally broke > down and bought a set of QT Halos > http://www.quiettechnologies.com/ > that my wife immediately stole, so I had to buy a second set. Note that I > fly an RV-4, so I can't address how well they will work in a windy > environment. > > Something like the plugfones, wired into an over-ear headset, might be a > good solution since you'd get the block in the ear canal plus the overall > protection of the muff. > > Charlie > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > >> >> The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a set of ear >> buds to the speakers inside the headphones. This both plugs the ears and >> puts the sound right in the ear canal. I can assure you that you will turn >> your volume down. You will still get a lot of noise from the engine and the >> prop that travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better >> that AN headphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young >> wrote: >> >>> When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these and >>> been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. >>> https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ >>> Has anyone tried them? >>> >>> Boyd young >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of >> others.* >> >> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email >> address before sending.* >> > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:36 AM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction =8BI use Bose QC20 active noise canceling ear buds under my head set =8B. They work about as good as it gets at cutting noise and the radio reception is so good I can recognize voices. I find that the active nose canceling kit in my Sigtronics doesn't help much when the Bose ear buds are on. I don't find the wires to be much of a issue. My eye glass bows are a pain but not the wires. Anyway the list price is $300 but I have found them on E-Bay for under $200. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Charlie England wrote: > We might need to define requirements & goals, since several people have > posted. A molded plug is still a plug, unless there's a speaker or sound > tube embedded in it. > > Remember that if you use regular earbuds (that don't seal up your ear > canal), you won't have any trouble hearing your radio (for a while), but > that's because the volume is so much louder than the noise. Eventually, > your hearing will be getting worse and worse, because you're still > subjecting your ears to ridiculously high volumes. > > I used something similar to the plugfones under a pair of Lightspeeds fo r > a while, and it's effective, but 'clunky' to deal with. I finally broke > down and bought a set of QT Halos > http://www.quiettechnologies.com/ > that my wife immediately stole, so I had to buy a second set. Note that I > fly an RV-4, so I can't address how well they will work in a windy > environment. > > Something like the plugfones, wired into an over-ear headset, might be a > good solution since you'd get the block in the ear canal plus the overall > protection of the muff. > > Charlie > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > >> >> The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a set of ear >> buds to the speakers inside the headphones. This both plugs the ears and >> puts the sound right in the ear canal. I can assure you that you will tu rn >> your volume down. You will still get a lot of noise from the engine and the >> prop that travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better >> that AN headphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 >> Larry >> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young >> wrote: >> >>> When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these and >>> been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. >>> https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ >>> Has anyone tried them? >>> >>> Boyd young >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of >> others.* >> >> *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email >> address before sending.* >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:30 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction From: Charlie England Bummer that the Halo didn't work out; they certainly aren't cheap (just be glad you didn't spring for one of the other brands; they are almost twice as much). I use the silicone plugs, but you're right; they don't cut as much volume as the foam ones. They are 'good enough' for my application, and much easier/faster to 'install'. Not to beat a dead horse, but...Having lost a significant percentage of my hearing, I tried to educate myself on where the risks are & how to abate them as much as is reasonably possible. I know that ear buds will get loud enough to hear comms over noise, but if it's too noisy to hear with an over the ear headset, then the buds are just adding to an already too-loud 'ear-vironment'. The potential for long term hearing quality is not good in that situation. FWIW... On 6/20/2016 11:42 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > Charlie, > I bought the Quiet Tech ear buds after your posting the link to > them, and found that it was still noisier than I preferred. With the > "squeezable foam plugs it was better, but they made my ears itch so > bad that I changed to the flexible rubber. I found the mike to be > floppy enough that it was a distraction. I finally began putting my > headset back on over them just to cut out some of the noise through > the bones around my ears. The Quiet buds are in the back of my plane > as a spare now. The Sig 40 headset and the speaker buds work better > for "me". > > If I was flying an RV I would go back to the Quiet buds over the > other, but the noise factor is much greater in the Kolb. In any case > the test for these runs about $12 bucks and some time, my spare set > cost in excess of $300. Not complaining, "just saying" > Larry > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Charlie England > > wrote: > > We might need to define requirements & goals, since several people > have posted. A molded plug is still a plug, unless there's a > speaker or sound tube embedded in it. > > Remember that if you use regular earbuds (that don't seal up your > ear canal), you won't have any trouble hearing your radio (for a > while), but that's because the volume is so much louder than the > noise. Eventually, your hearing will be getting worse and worse, > because you're still subjecting your ears to ridiculously high > volumes. > > I used something similar to the plugfones under a pair of > Lightspeeds for a while, and it's effective, but 'clunky' to deal > with. I finally broke down and bought a set of QT Halos > http://www.quiettechnologies.com/ > that my wife immediately stole, so I had to buy a second set. Note > that I fly an RV-4, so I can't address how well they will work in > a windy environment. > > Something like the plugfones, wired into an over-ear headset, > might be a good solution since you'd get the block in the ear > canal plus the overall protection of the muff. > > Charlie > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Larry Cottrell > > wrote: > > > The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a > set of ear buds to the speakers inside the headphones. This > both plugs the ears and puts the sound right in the ear canal. > I can assure you that you will turn your volume down. You will > still get a lot of noise from the engine and the prop that > travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better > that AN headphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 > Larry > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young > > > wrote: > > When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've > seen these and been going to try a pair, but haven't yet > ordered a pair. > https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ > Has anyone tried them? > > Boyd young > > > -- > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are > intolerant of others./ > / > / > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove > my email address before sending./ > > > -- > /The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant > of others./ > / > / > /If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email > address before sending./ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:34 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction Nothing will change the noise put out by the engine, other than a helmet. However the volume that is needed to over come the engine noise is something that you can regulate by having the sound input within the ear, rather than having to overcome the existing noise. As I said I came to the conclusion that the engine noise was less with the headset on over the ear buds. However the bones of your head and ear structure still transmits the noise, just in a more round about way. The Quiet buds were a definate improvement. The only hassle with them was the mike support, it would not stay in one place. However the cheap ear buds soldered to the speakers was even better for me. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Charlie wrote- Not to beat a dead horse, but...Having lost a significant percentage of my hearing, I tried to educate myself on where the risks are & how to abate them as much as is reasonably possible. I know that ear buds will get loud enough to hear comms over noise, but if it's too noisy to hear with an over the ear headset, then the buds are just adding to an already too-loud 'ear-vironment'. The potential for long term hearing quality is not good in that situation. FWIW... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction From: Gary Aman I use a noise canceling setup from headsets inc in my 30 year old David Clar ks H10 30's. I fly a mk3 c with a direct drive Jabiru that turns over 3000 o n take off. The noise it generates is unbelievable. But at cruise power,The i ntercom and radio functions adequately , but only because I insulated the ce nter overhead with densofoam. The wing root ends, spar carry through and top and bottom, all on the inside. Also the rear facing windows that were betwe en me and the prop. But I think the wing skins are drummed by prop passes an d it drives the sound into the cabin through the wing root ends. A couple of the guys have flown in my ship, Rick and Beauford I think. T hey probably have an opinion on the sound from my setup. The addition of ins ulation on the root ends was the difference for me. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 20, 2016, at 1:43 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Bummer that the Halo didn't work out; they certainly aren't cheap (just be glad you didn't spring for one of the other brands; they are almost twice a s much). I use the silicone plugs, but you're right; they don't cut as much v olume as the foam ones. They are 'good enough' for my application, and much e asier/faster to 'install'. > > Not to beat a dead horse, but...Having lost a significant percentage of my hearing, I tried to educate myself on where the risks are & how to abate th em as much as is reasonably possible. I know that ear buds will get loud eno ugh to hear comms over noise, but if it's too noisy to hear with an over the ear headset, then the buds are just adding to an already too-loud 'ear-viro nment'. The potential for long term hearing quality is not good in that situ ation. > > FWIW... > >> On 6/20/2016 11:42 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote: >> Charlie, >> I bought the Quiet Tech ear buds after your posting the link to them, a nd found that it was still noisier than I preferred. With the "squeezable fo am plugs it was better, but they made my ears itch so bad that I changed to t he flexible rubber. I found the mike to be floppy enough that it was a distr action. I finally began putting my headset back on over them just to cut out some of the noise through the bones around my ears. The Quiet buds are in t he back of my plane as a spare now. The Sig 40 headset and the speaker buds w ork better for "me". >> >> If I was flying an RV I would go back to the Quiet buds over the other, b ut the noise factor is much greater in the Kolb. In any case the test for th ese runs about $12 bucks and some time, my spare set cost in excess of $300. Not complaining, "just saying" >> Larry >> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>> We might need to define requirements & goals, since several people have p osted. A molded plug is still a plug, unless there's a speaker or sound tube embedded in it. >>> >>> Remember that if you use regular earbuds (that don't seal up your ear ca nal), you won't have any trouble hearing your radio (for a while), but that' s because the volume is so much louder than the noise. Eventually, your hear ing will be getting worse and worse, because you're still subjecting your ea rs to ridiculously high volumes. >>> >>> I used something similar to the plugfones under a pair of Lightspeeds f or a while, and it's effective, but 'clunky' to deal with. I finally broke d own and bought a set of QT Halos >>> http://www.quiettechnologies.com/ >>> that my wife immediately stole, so I had to buy a second set. Note that I fly an RV-4, so I can't address how well they will work in a windy environm ent. >>> >>> Something like the plugfones, wired into an over-ear headset, might be a good solution since you'd get the block in the ear canal plus the overall p rotection of the muff. >>> >>> Charlie >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Larry Cottrell wrote: >>>> >>>> The issue for me was solved with the suggestion to solder a set of ear b uds to the speakers inside the headphones. This both plugs the ears and puts the sound right in the ear canal. I can assure you that you will turn your v olume down. You will still get a lot of noise from the engine and the prop t hat travels through the bones in your head, but to me it is better that AN h eadphones. Cost from Wally world is about $12.00 >>>> Larry >>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:58 AM, B Young wr ote: >>>>> When I've tried foam plugs I can't hear my radio. I've seen these an d been going to try a pair, but haven't yet ordered a pair. >>>>> https://www.plugfones.com/shop/ >>>>> Has anyone tried them? >>>>> >>>>> Boyd young >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of o thers. >>>> >>>> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of ot hers. >> >> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email addr ess before sending. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:50 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction Makes sense to me, Gary A. Had not considered the wings and the inboard ends. I've been thinking about the tail boom resonating like a snare drum every time a blade tip zips past it. At one time I only had 3/4" tip clearance. Now I have 1.5". May be a little less noisy now. If I have trouble understanding a transmission, I pull back on the throttle a little until my communication is complete. Gets real quiet with no power. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Aman Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Noise Reduction I use a noise canceling setup from headsets inc in my 30 year old David Clarks H10 30's. I fly a mk3 c with a direct drive Jabiru that turns over 3000 on take off. The noise it generates is unbelievable. But at cruise power,The intercom and radio functions adequately , but only because I insulated the center overhead with densofoam. The wing root ends, spar carry through and top and bottom, all on the inside. Also the rear facing windows that were between me and the prop. But I think the wing skins are drummed by prop passes and it drives the sound into the cabin through the wing root ends. A couple of the guys have flown in my ship, Rick and Beauford I think. They probably have an opinion on the sound from my setup. The addition of insulation on the root ends was the difference for me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.