---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/07/16: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:03 PM - Extended wing Firefly (mikemac) 2. 01:28 PM - Re: Extended wing Firefly (Bill Berle) 3. 01:46 PM - Re: Extended wing Firefly (mikemac) 4. 02:29 PM - Re: Re: Extended wing Firefly (Bill Berle) 5. 03:35 PM - Re: Re: Extended wing Firefly (John Hauck) 6. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Extended wing Firefly (John Hauck) 7. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Extended wing Firefly (Bill Berle) 8. 05:53 PM - Re: Extended wing Firefly (pcking) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:03:00 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Extended wing Firefly From: "mikemac" I was speaking to Brian Melborne yesterday, and expressed my wishes as to wanting a Bush Kolb. I told him I want STOL as top priority. Rotax 447 or 503. I told him top speed is not important, but slow flying Characteristics are. I just like to boat around, low and slow. Anyhow, he said he has been flying a Firefly with extended wings, and the wing is now undercambered. He said he weighs about 205 and with him in it, he said, and I quote, "It stalls in the teens". I told him I am very interested in this and he sent me a picture of it from when he was at Sun n Fun. It was set up as a tricycle gear which I would not want, but he said making it a tail dragger is not a problem. I realize this would not be 103 compliant, but I would then just go sport pilot. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457867#457867 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/untitled_765.png ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:19 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extended wing Firefly Wow, that's cool ! Did he say that the "undercamber" is a new undercambered wing rib, or is it just drooped ailerons on a standard Kolb wing ? Did they have to enlarge the tail to compensate for the increased nose-down pitching moment form the new airfoil? Looks really interesting :) Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 7/7/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Extended wing Firefly To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, July 7, 2016, 1:02 PM "mikemac" I was speaking to Brian Melborne yesterday, and expressed my wishes as to wanting a Bush Kolb. I told him I want STOL as top priority. Rotax 447 or 503. I told him top speed is not important, but slow flying Characteristics are. I just like to boat around, low and slow. Anyhow, he said he has been flying a Firefly with extended wings, and the wing is now undercambered. He said he weighs about 205 and with him in it, he said, and I quote, "It stalls in the teens". I told him I am very interested in this and he sent me a picture of it from when he was at Sun n Fun. It was set up as a tricycle gear which I would not want, but he said making it a tail dragger is not a problem. I realize this would not be 103 compliant, but I would then just go sport pilot. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457867#457867 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/untitled_765.png Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:50 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly From: "mikemac" I am pretty sure he said undercambered wing. However I would suggest talking with him, and from your other posts I know you have more design knowledge than me. So, if you do talk with him, it would be great to post what you found out in this thread. I really lit up when Brian said with his weight it would stall in the teens. To me, that is exactly what I want for slower landing, takeoffs etc. etc. I am not a showboat pilot, just a pilot who like to boat around. Having the excellent history of the Kolb, plus STOL, and now a very low stall speed has me jazzed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457874#457874 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:00 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly Remember that when you are doing STOL work, especially really slow STOL, having full positive control over the airplane at those low speeds is even MORE important than just the minimum speed. It's like having a hot rod car that goes really fast but you can't keep it going in a straight line... you won't be able to enjoy it. When you get down in the 25 MPH and below range, the air is very soft and you do not have much "Grab" on the air. Your controls can flop around back and forth but they don't make the airplane do whatever you asked it to do. But the wind, and the turbulence,and the gusts are still there at full strength. There are solutions and tricks that you can use to keep control of the plane slower and slower, spoilers for roll control, VG's on the wings and tail, etc. But there are many situations where the airplane can go slower than you can control it, and you're playing with rattlesnakes at that point. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 7/7/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, July 7, 2016, 1:45 PM "mikemac" I am pretty sure he said undercambered wing. However I would suggest talking with him, and from your other posts I know you have more design knowledge than me. So, if you do talk with him, it would be great to post what you found out in this thread. I really lit up when Brian said with his weight it would stall in the teens. To me, that is exactly what I want for slower landing, takeoffs etc. etc. I am not a showboat pilot, just a pilot who like to boat around. Having the excellent history of the Kolb, plus STOL, and now a very low stall speed has me jazzed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457874#457874 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:40 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly The straight bottom standard Kolb wing has camber as soon as it loaded in flight because the fabric stretches. How much it stretches has a lot to do with how much you shrink the fabric. Bryan Melborn 's new wing rib is cambered. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikemac Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 3:46 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly I am pretty sure he said undercambered wing. However I would suggest talking with him, and from your other posts I know you have more design knowledge than me. So, if you do talk with him, it would be great to post what you found out in this thread. I really lit up when Brian said with his weight it would stall in the teens. To me, that is exactly what I want for slower landing, takeoffs etc. etc. I am not a showboat pilot, just a pilot who like to boat around. Having the excellent history of the Kolb, plus STOL, and now a very low stall speed has me jazzed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457874#457874 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:32 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly >From personal experience, the US and original FS are extremely controllable at speeds down to 25 mph measured with a Winter venturi activated ASI. That is why Homer Kolb designed oversized barn door full span ailerons and empennage capable of control at extra slow airspeed. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 4:28 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly Remember that when you are doing STOL work, especially really slow STOL, having full positive control over the airplane at those low speeds is even MORE important than just the minimum speed. It's like having a hot rod car that goes really fast but you can't keep it going in a straight line... you won't be able to enjoy it. When you get down in the 25 MPH and below range, the air is very soft and you do not have much "Grab" on the air. Your controls can flop around back and forth but they don't make the airplane do whatever you asked it to do. But the wind, and the turbulence,and the gusts are still there at full strength. There are solutions and tricks that you can use to keep control of the plane slower and slower, spoilers for roll control, VG's on the wings and tail, etc. But there are many situations where the airplane can go slower than you can control it, and you're playing with rattlesnakes at that point. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 7/7/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, July 7, 2016, 1:45 PM "mikemac" I am pretty sure he said undercambered wing. However I would suggest talking with him, and from your other posts I know you have more design knowledge than me. So, if you do talk with him, it would be great to post what you found out in this thread. I really lit up when Brian said with his weight it would stall in the teens. To me, that is exactly what I want for slower landing, takeoffs etc. etc. I am not a showboat pilot, just a pilot who like to boat around. Having the excellent history of the Kolb, plus STOL, and now a very low stall speed has me jazzed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457874#457874 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:18 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly Wow, that's interesting, a new wing design. Interested to see if he enlarged the tail, or whether it was necessary or not. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 7/7/16, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, July 7, 2016, 3:35 PM "John Hauck" The straight bottom standard Kolb wing has camber as soon as it loaded in flight because the fabric stretches. How much it stretches has a lot to do with how much you shrink the fabric. Bryan Melborn 's new wing rib is cambered. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mikemac Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 3:46 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Extended wing Firefly I am pretty sure he said undercambered wing. However I would suggest talking with him, and from your other posts I know you have more design knowledge than me. So, if you do talk with him, it would be great to post what you found out in this thread. I really lit up when Brian said with his weight it would stall in the teens. To me, that is exactly what I want for slower landing, takeoffs etc. etc. I am not a showboat pilot, just a pilot who like to boat around. Having the excellent history of the Kolb, plus STOL, and now a very low stall speed has me jazzed. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457874#457874 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:24 PM PST US From: "pcking" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extended wing Firefly Kolb has a new motorglider. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Berle" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2016 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Extended wing Firefly > > Wow, that's cool ! > > Did he say that the "undercamber" is a new undercambered wing rib, or is > it just drooped ailerons on a standard Kolb wing ? > > Did they have to enlarge the tail to compensate for the increased > nose-down pitching moment form the new airfoil? > > Looks really interesting :) > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.