Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:46 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle)
2. 06:39 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Stuart Harner)
3. 08:23 AM - Extra (Russ Kinne)
4. 08:56 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (racerjerry)
5. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle)
6. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Stuart Harner)
7. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bob)
8. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle)
9. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Stuart Harner)
10. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (B Young)
11. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Bill Berle)
12. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Dave Kulp)
13. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Stuart Harner)
14. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Bill Berle)
15. 02:32 PM - Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Russ Kinne)
16. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Larry Cottrell)
17. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Russ Kinne)
18. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Gary Aman)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
I just bought a used Firestar, and I found a potentially dangerous problem with
one of the bolt holes in the wing spar attach lug (the piece of thick steel sheet
coming out of the wing root).
The hole had been drilled far far too close to the edge of the metal, and under
certain loads, gusts, or other flight conditions could easily have caused a crash.
Although these are of mcourse non-certified airplanes, the FAA and the engineering
community have researched this and come up with a very clear explanation of
"edge distance" for structural fastener holes for certified aircraft. Because
this is primary life or death safety, this is one area where ultralights, experimentals,
and commercial airplanes all need to adhere to the same principle.
Measuring from the CENTER of the hole, you need to have at least two times the
diameter of the bolt before you reach the edge of the piece of metal.This is a
rule for "sheet metal", which in general is anything under 1/8 inch thick. Plates
(above 1/8 inch), tubes and billet have different limitations for fastener
attachments.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/7/16, mikemac <mmacpherson@homesale.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016, 10:22 AM
"mikemac" <mmacpherson@homesale.com>
When buying a used Firestar 1 or 2, would you please list
what you would want to find out. I have never owned a Kolb.
Any suggestions appreciated.
I was told by some local high time kolb jockies to make sure
it is a seven rib as opposed to five. Thank you in advance
for any help.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459295#459295
Forum -
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Subject: | Used Firestar Checklist |
Bill,
Good thing you caught that, you certainly don't want a bolt hole pulling out during
flight.
Since that hole is drilled during the alignment of the wing to fuselage you can't
just drill a new hole somewhere else without messing with the alignment of
the wing. In some cases the recommended procedure to fix an out of alignment wing
is to weld the hole shut and re-drill it in the proper place.
So this leaves the question, is the wing currently aligned properly?
If not, perhaps moving the hole will fix two problems at once.
If the wing is aligned properly, then there may (stress only may) be a problem
with the wing elsewhere. A couple of things come to mind like covering might have
pulled the wing out of "square" or something was not built properly internally.
I would start by getting it into a flight attitude, level in all directions and
start checking things like wing angle and square. Also look for any "twist" that
should not be there.
Curious about a couple of things. Has this plane flown? Did you buy it from the
builder? If you look down the leading edge, do the wings align?
Give Bryan at the factory a call, I bet he has seen this before and will know the
best way to proceed.
Good luck and let us know what you come up with. Post pictures too. Might help
someone else.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist
I just bought a used Firestar, and I found a potentially dangerous problem with
one of the bolt holes in the wing spar attach lug (the piece of thick steel sheet
coming out of the wing root).
The hole had been drilled far far too close to the edge of the metal, and under
certain loads, gusts, or other flight conditions could easily have caused a crash.
Although these are of mcourse non-certified airplanes, the FAA and the engineering
community have researched this and come up with a very clear explanation of
"edge distance" for structural fastener holes for certified aircraft. Because
this is primary life or death safety, this is one area where ultralights, experimentals,
and commercial airplanes all need to adhere to the same principle.
Measuring from the CENTER of the hole, you need to have at least two times the
diameter of the bolt before you reach the edge of the piece of metal.This is a
rule for "sheet metal", which in general is anything under 1/8 inch thick. Plates
(above 1/8 inch), tubes and billet have different limitations for fastener
attachments.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/7/16, mikemac <mmacpherson@homesale.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016, 10:22 AM
"mikemac" <mmacpherson@homesale.com>
When buying a used Firestar 1 or 2, would you please list what you would want
to find out. I have never owned a Kolb.
Any suggestions appreciated.
I was told by some local high time kolb jockies to make sure it is a seven rib
as opposed to five. Thank you in advance for any help.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459295#459295
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
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It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs
TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop,
BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this
summer.
No-nonsense price is 22K
Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer
available
Russ Kinne,
russk50@gmail.com
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and
edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper
measurerment?
For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb
alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better).
See if there is enough room.
I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance
myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem
worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting
lug.
Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot
of other problems. It's not the right way to do it.
I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of
experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right"
approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up
a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that
welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to
drill back out accurately.
The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought
it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the
builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage,
fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged
wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage
were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because
in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown
a fiberglass repair.
Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully
bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor
jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get
it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point
between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need
ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper
measurerment?
For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each
side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a
4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if
there is enough room.
I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a
bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree
of sweepback into the wings.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
Bill,
Sounds like you are on the right track about this.
I do like the idea of adding "more tab". Welding would be ideal. Welding a hole
shut does pose hardening problems, usually solved with "normalizing" heating.
Neither are things I would like to do after the wing is covered, but it can be
done with careful planning.
If after checking alignment you determine that a new hole has to be drilled, perhaps
you could over size the existing hole and weld in a short steel tube of
the proper ID. That way you don't have to drill through a weld bead but you can
relocate the hole by moving the tube around in the oversized hole. Alignment
could be tricky.
The idea of sandwiching some flat steel on one or both sides of the existing tab
is a good one provided you have the space to put some bolts. I would think at
least two would be preferred so that the extension cannot pivot around the clamping
bolt(s).
If the plane was damaged enough to bend fuselage parts, keep looking and checking
everything. Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands, hopefully it
is all just cosmetic stuff.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem
worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting
lug.
Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot
of other problems. It's not the right way to do it.
I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of
experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right"
approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up
a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that
welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to
drill back out accurately.
The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought
it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the
builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage,
fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged
wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage
were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because
in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown
a fiberglass repair.
Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully
bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor
jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get
it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole
and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper
measurerment?
For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb
alignment? Or sandwich a
4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough
room.
I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance
myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
Before "fixing" it I would suggest your very experienced aerospace engineer
do some basic calculations of the loads on the fitting. He will be well
aware of how to calculate the "lug efficiency factor" for the steel part.
The largest load is in the transverse direction for this part not the
usually worrisome lug tension direction, so he will need both the lift and
drag forces carried by the fitting. The lift strut actually puts a fair
amount of compression into the fitting. Should be pretty easy to estimate.
Also compare the strength to the adjacent load carrying parts. Best of
luck..
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the
problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge
of the mounting lug.
Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create
a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it.
I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years
of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about
right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment,
and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The
problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it
becomes difficult to drill back out accurately.
The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I
bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was
that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART
of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane.
So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the
forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the
nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone
would have shown a fiberglass repair.
Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I
carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a
scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work
will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point
between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need
ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper
measurerment?
For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each
side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a
4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if
there is enough room.
I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a
bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree
of sweepback into the wings.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
You guys are certainly on the right track with your thinking too :)
My engineer (who I am SO lucky to have available!!!) looked at the fitting and
estimated that the loads are.. about... in THAT direction. The combination of
lifting loads, drag loads, and the inward force from the wing struts were all
taken into account.
This particular engineer is more than capable of setting up a classic engineering
"Free Body" diagram and calculating the loads and directional vectors on the
fasteners exactly. But in this case his experience indicated that the calculations
would very likely indicate that a good "factor of safety" and conservative
thinking would both point to adding material around the hole.
I believe that he suggested a bolted doubler instead of a welded doubler only for
the sake of heat management, since there are rivets and fabric near the fitting
that would be affected. Welding large washers tot he fitting would certainly
also be an option.
But I believe that the actual repair will be guided by how well the wings are aligned,
as one or two of you have mentioned. If the alignment is poor, then the
hole should be moved, which leads me more toward the extra effort of welding.
If the hole alignment is accurate, then a doubler system (with two additional
bolts to prevent rotation) maty be the easier way to achieve the same strength.
While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting
lug system.
The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The
space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there
is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and
aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps
between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the
bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both
sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of
the bolt/pin shank.
Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would
seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would
put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the
Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported
in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, Bob <rmurrill@cox.net> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 10:25 AM
"Bob" <rmurrill@cox.net>
Before "fixing" it I would suggest your very experienced
aerospace engineer
do some basic calculations of the loads on the
fitting. He will be well
aware of how to calculate the "lug efficiency factor" for
the steel part.
The largest load is in the transverse direction for this
part not the
usually worrisome lug tension direction, so he will need
both the lift and
drag forces carried by the fitting. The lift strut
actually puts a fair
amount of compression into the fitting. Should be
pretty easy to estimate.
Also compare the strength to the adjacent load carrying
parts. Best of
luck..
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 9:53 AM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback
would make the
problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to
the inboard edge
of the mounting lug.
Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then
it would create
a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it.
I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace
engineer with 50 years
of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a
"that's about
right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the
wing alignment,
and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the
existing lug. The
problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard
spot where it
becomes difficult to drill back out accurately.
The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows
147 hours. I
bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The
story I got was
that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day,
repaired PART
of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and
repainted the airplane.
So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly
longeron tubes in the
forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting
he replaced the
nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he
did the nose cone
would have shown a fiberglass repair.
Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing
mounting lug, I
carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar
clamps and a
scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A
little more work
will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool
for that.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance
upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry <gnking2@verizon.net>
wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM
"racerjerry" <gnking2@verizon.net>
Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point
between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't
need
ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper
measurerment?
For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each
side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a
4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See
if
there is enough room.
I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a
bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree
of sweepback into the wings.
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified"
aircraft before it was a little odd looking.
After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since
the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is
up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but
it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring
accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one
wing to another.
The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set
the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the
builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be
compensated for at a later time.
My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is
that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single
handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped
install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough
to put the main spar bolt in the holes.
Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower
than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit.
On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear
strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway
near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend
that pin is still way above my flying skills.
So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be
way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that
way.
My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the
safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since
I fold and unfold for every flight.
When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for
the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the
wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants
to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and
there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on
to the other wing and repeat.
Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection
of all 6 pins and safety pins.
Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at
the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane.
The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work
my way around.
There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how
paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes
to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold
it.
Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the
holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right"
the next time I go out.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
~snip~
While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting
lug system.
The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The
space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there
is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and
aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps
between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the
bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both
sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of
the bolt/pin shank.
Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would
seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would
put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the
Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported
in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
~Snip~
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist |
I'm not a structural engineer,,, so think on this,,, when the wing I's
creating lift the lift strut (because of the triangular geometry) pulls
the wing to the center. with almost equal sizes of wing panels inboard
and outboard from the liftstrut, the in board attach fitting should have
very little up or down pressure.
with that said the edge distance should be most affected by the drag
pulling the wing back.
but without wind tunnel testing I don't know which force is greater.
Boyd Young
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
Yes, but the rear universal joint should keep the main wing spar fitting at a fixed
fore-aft distance, which should not change other than a few thousandths due
to heat expansion. So there is no scenario where the wing fitting will move
forward or rearward in the fuselage fitting it could be a lot closer without
any chance of having it difficult to put together.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 12:20 PM
"Stuart Harner" <stuart@harnerfarm.net>
That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having
only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little
odd looking.
After considering the how's and why's of the situation it
appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are
produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the
builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the
factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole
in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This
allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to
another.
The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight
fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that
tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any
variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be
compensated for at a later time.
My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a
couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib
tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much
easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped
install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to
line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes.
Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the
pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to
shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly
the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the
shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken
pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would
bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still
way above my flying skills.
So my take is that since there are no known issues with this
setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of
use is the reason it was made that way.
My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure
I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have
established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and
unfold for every flight.
When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins
and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat
where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and
rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to
rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety
it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and
safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing
and repeat.
Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I
do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins.
Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight
inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect
each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and
safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work
my way around.
There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you
get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and
safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting
ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to
unfold it.
Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the
safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit
I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time
I go out.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
~snip~
While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question
about this wing mounting lug system.
The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090
steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs
on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2
inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore
and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are
still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the
fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is
not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on
both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the
unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank.
Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap
to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of
tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing
bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that
the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical
bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
~Snip~
Forum -
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
List Contribution Web Site -
-Matt
Dralle, List Admin.
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
Good advice about setting up, Stuart,
When I was new with my FlagFly at a new airstrip, there was the pilot
seen at every airport who knows everything, has all the experiences to
prove it, and beats your ear with it all.
One day he was telling me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my
pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I folded the
wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one of the wing pins. I'm
reluctant to hurt anyone's feelings, but from that time on, when I was
setting up or pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean _NO_ chat with
others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's hurt than me
hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods far from my base and any
nearby roads !!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
On 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart Harner wrote:
>
> That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified"
aircraft before it was a little odd looking.
>
> After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that
since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is
up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory
but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring
accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one
wing to another.
>
> The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set
the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if
the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot
be compensated for at a later time.
>
> My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times
is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single
handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have
helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough
to put the main spar bolt in the holes.
>
> Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower
than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit.
On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the
shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway
near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend
that pin is still way above my flying skills.
>
> So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to
be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that
way.
>
> My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the
safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me
since I fold and unfold for every flight.
>
> When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for
the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the
wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants
to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then
and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move
on to the other wing and repeat.
>
> Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection
of all 6 pins and safety pins.
>
> Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at
the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the
plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work
my way around.
>
> There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about
how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes
to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to
unfold it.
>
> Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the
holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right"
the next time I go out.
>
> Stuart
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
>
> ~snip~
>
> While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting
lug system.
>
> The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The
space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there
is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore
and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps
between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the
bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both
sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of
the bolt/pin shank.
>
> Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would
seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would
put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the
Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported
in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
>
> ~Snip~
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
Boy ain=99t that the truth! Distractions are just trouble waiting
to happen.
Even though it is a PITA, I always put the pins in from the front and
the safety clips on the back, just in case. The theory being that they
will be more likely to stay in place.
IF I had a hangar where I didn=99t have to fold every flight, I
would consider replacing the pin with a bolt and probably use some
spacer tubing fore and aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that
some torque could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be
merely academic. J
Stuart
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Kulp
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root
fitting
Good advice about setting up, Stuart,
When I was new with my FlagFly at a new airstrip, there was the pilot
seen at every airport who knows everything, has all the experiences to
prove it, and beats your ear with it all.
One day he was telling me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my
pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I folded the
wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one of the wing pins. I'm
reluctant to hurt anyone's feelings, but from that time on, when I was
setting up or pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with
others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's hurt than me
hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods far from my base and any
nearby roads !!
Dave Kulp
Bethlehem, PA
On 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart Harner wrote:
<mailto:stuart@harnerfarm.net> <stuart@harnerfarm.net>
That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on
"certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking.
After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me
that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the
rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are
drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final
hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for
correction of minor differences from one wing to another.
The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs
and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that
means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are
"locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time.
My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of
times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing.
It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close
tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4
people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the
holes.
Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be
way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close
tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have
not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a
chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet
that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my
flying skills.
So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it
has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it
was made that way.
My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't
forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure"
that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight.
When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety
clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily
reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight
angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper
pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and
safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat.
Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual
inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins.
Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection.
Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I
walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for
a third time as I work my way around.
There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea
about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably
adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if
I didn't have to unfold it.
Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back
in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure
things are "right" the next time I go out.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
~snip~
While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this
wing mounting lug system.
The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel
material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage
tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though
the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge
U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and
the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not
really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of
the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the
bolt/pin shank.
Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there?
It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar
fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm
NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this
critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
~Snip~
Message 14
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|
Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
For whatever it's worth, I plan to use an AN hex bolt or Clevis Bolt, with an AN
castellated shear nut, and a wire clip or safety pin through the Cotter Pin
hole in the bolt. Actually, instead of a castle nut a "wing nut" would be perfect
for this since you don't need any tools. But regardless of whether there is
a nut, there still needs to be a Cotter pin or Safety pin to keep the pin from
backing out of the hole.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 1:17 PM
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#yiv2623329048 Boy aint that the truth!
Distractions are just trouble waiting to
happen. Even though it is a PITA, I always
put the pins in from the front and the safety clips on the
back, just in case. The theory being that they will be more
likely to stay in place. IF I had a hangar where I didnt
have to fold every flight, I would consider replacing the
pin with a bolt and probably use some spacer tubing fore and
aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that some torque
could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be
merely academic. J Stuart From:
owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of Dave Kulp
Sent: Monday, August
08, 2016 2:46 PM
To:
kolb-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re:
Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root
fitting Good advice about
setting up, Stuart,When I was new with my FlagFly at
a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport
who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it,
and beats your ear with it all.One day he was telling
me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my
pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I
folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one
of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's
feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or
pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with
others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's
hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods
far from my base and any nearby roads !!Dave
KulpBethlehem, PAOn 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart
Harner wrote:-->
Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart Harner" <stuart@harnerfarm.net>
That stood out to me the first time I saw it
too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft
before it was a little odd looking.
After considering the how's and why's
of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage
and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is
up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled
at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the
final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment.
This allows for correction of minor differences from one
wing to another. The factory very
well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and
set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too.
However, that means that if the builder makes any variations
in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be
compensated for at a later time. My
other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a
couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib
tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much
easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped
install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to
line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the
holes. Just as a thought process,
the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than
the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close
tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16"
aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I
trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get
anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that
force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my
flying skills. So my take is that
since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be
way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason
it was made that way. My BIGGEST
concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't
forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a
"procedure" that works for me since I fold and
unfold for every flight. When
starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and
safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where
they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest
it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to
rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety
it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and
safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing
and repeat. Then I install the
aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual
inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins.
Once the tail is in place I then do a complete
pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and
inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The
pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as
I work my way around. There is more
to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea
about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All
this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over
the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold
it. Also when folding it up, I put
the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the
fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are
"right" the next time I go out.
Stuart -----Original
Message-----From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
On Behalf Of Bill BerleSent: Monday, August 08,
2016 1:04 PMTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject:
Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
~snip~ While I'm on
this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing
mounting lug system. The mounting
lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel
material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs
on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2
inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore
and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are
still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the
fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is
not really in proper "double shear" load, the open
space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending
load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin
shank. Can anyone tell me if there
is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem
to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar
fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double
shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is
defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not
supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
~Snip~
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Returned Mail: Extra |
How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested?
> On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com wrote:
>
> The following message from Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com> was not authorized
for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum.
>
> Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the maximum filesize
for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board Administrator if
you have questions.]
>
>
> Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php
>
> From: Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Extra
> ****************************************
>
> It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs TT,
Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop,
> BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this summer.
> No-nonsense price is 22K
> Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer available
> Russ Kinne,
> russk50@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Returned Mail: Extra |
I have a feeling that Matt doesn't really pay all that much attention to
this list. This happened to me several weeks ago, same message, yet it went
through with no problem.
Sorry that you are having to sell. It looks like a nice plane.
Larry
On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested?
>
> > On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com wrote:
> >
> > The following message from Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com> was not
> authorized for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum.
> >
> > Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the maximum
> filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board
> Administrator if you have questions.]
> >
> >
> > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php
> >
> > From: Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com>
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Extra
> > ****************************************
> >
> > It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs
> TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop,
> > BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this
> summer.
> > No-nonsense price is 22K
> > Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer
> available
> > Russ Kinne,
> > russk50@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: Returned Mail: Extra |
Larry, many thanx for your info. Regards to your falcon!
Apparently my post did go thru.
Fair winds,
Russ
> On Aug 8, 2016, at 6:53 PM, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I have a feeling that Matt doesn't really pay all that much attention
to this list. This happened to me several weeks ago, same message, yet
it went through with no problem.
>
> Sorry that you are having to sell. It looks like a nice plane.
> Larry
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com
<mailto:russk50@gmail.com>> wrote:
<mailto:russk50@gmail.com>>
>
> How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested?
>
> > On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com
<mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> >
> > The following message from Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com
<mailto:russk50@gmail.com>> was not authorized for entry in the
Matronics Email Lists forum.
> >
> > Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the
maximum filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the
Board Administrator if you have questions.]
> >
> >
> > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php
<http://forums.matronics.com//index.php>
> >
> > From: Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com <mailto:russk50@gmail.com>>
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com <mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Extra
> > ****************************************
> >
> > It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has
123hrs TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop,
> > BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it
this summer.
> > No-nonsense price is 22K
> > Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer
available
> > Russ Kinne,
> > russk50@gmail.com <mailto:russk50@gmail.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ========================
===========
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
> ========================
===========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ========================
===========
> WIKI -
> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> ========================
===========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ========================
===========
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.
>
> If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting |
dont think they make a good AN wing nut.I had one strip as I was tightening it
on the tail cable attach at the bottom of the tail post.
> On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> For whatever it's worth, I plan to use an AN hex bolt or Clevis Bolt, with an
AN castellated shear nut, and a wire clip or safety pin through the Cotter Pin
hole in the bolt. Actually, instead of a castle nut a "wing nut" would be perfect
for this since you don't need any tools. But regardless of whether there
is a nut, there still needs to be a Cotter pin or Safety pin to keep the pin
from backing out of the hole.
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner <stuart@harnerfarm.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 1:17 PM
>
> #yiv2623329048
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> #yiv2623329048 Boy aint that the truth!
> Distractions are just trouble waiting to
> happen. Even though it is a PITA, I always
> put the pins in from the front and the safety clips on the
> back, just in case. The theory being that they will be more
> likely to stay in place. IF I had a hangar where I didnt
> have to fold every flight, I would consider replacing the
> pin with a bolt and probably use some spacer tubing fore and
> aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that some torque
> could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be
> merely academic. J Stuart From:
> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
> Of Dave Kulp
> Sent: Monday, August
> 08, 2016 2:46 PM
> To:
> kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re:
> Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root
> fitting Good advice about
> setting up, Stuart,When I was new with my FlagFly at
> a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport
> who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it,
> and beats your ear with it all.One day he was telling
> me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my
> pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I
> folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one
> of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's
> feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or
> pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with
> others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's
> hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods
> far from my base and any nearby roads !!Dave
> KulpBethlehem, PAOn 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart
> Harner wrote:-->
> That stood out to me the first time I saw it
> too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft
> before it was a little odd looking.
> After considering the how's and why's
> of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage
> and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is
> up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled
> at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the
> final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment.
> This allows for correction of minor differences from one
> wing to another. The factory very
> well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and
> set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too.
> However, that means that if the builder makes any variations
> in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be
> compensated for at a later time. My
> other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a
> couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib
> tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much
> easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped
> install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to
> line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the
> holes. Just as a thought process,
> the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than
> the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close
> tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16"
> aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I
> trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get
> anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that
> force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my
> flying skills. So my take is that
> since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be
> way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason
> it was made that way. My BIGGEST
> concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't
> forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a
> "procedure" that works for me since I fold and
> unfold for every flight. When
> starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and
> safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where
> they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest
> it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to
> rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety
> it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and
> safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing
> and repeat. Then I install the
> aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual
> inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins.
> Once the tail is in place I then do a complete
> pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and
> inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The
> pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as
> I work my way around. There is more
> to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea
> about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All
> this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over
> the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold
> it. Also when folding it up, I put
> the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the
> fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are
> "right" the next time I go out.
> Stuart -----Original
> Message-----From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com]
> On Behalf Of Bill BerleSent: Monday, August 08,
> 2016 1:04 PMTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject:
> Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist
> ~snip~ While I'm on
> this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing
> mounting lug system. The mounting
> lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel
> material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs
> on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2
> inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore
> and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are
> still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the
> fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is
> not really in proper "double shear" load, the open
> space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending
> load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin
> shank. Can anyone tell me if there
> is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem
> to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar
> fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double
> shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is
> defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not
> supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs.
> ~Snip~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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