---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/08/16: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:46 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle) 2. 06:39 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Stuart Harner) 3. 08:23 AM - Extra (Russ Kinne) 4. 08:56 AM - Re: Used Firestar Checklist (racerjerry) 5. 09:53 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle) 6. 10:19 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Stuart Harner) 7. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bob) 8. 11:04 AM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (Bill Berle) 9. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Stuart Harner) 10. 12:34 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist (B Young) 11. 12:38 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Bill Berle) 12. 12:45 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Dave Kulp) 13. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Stuart Harner) 14. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Bill Berle) 15. 02:32 PM - Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Russ Kinne) 16. 03:55 PM - Re: Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Larry Cottrell) 17. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Returned Mail: Extra (Russ Kinne) 18. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting (Gary Aman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:01 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist I just bought a used Firestar, and I found a potentially dangerous problem with one of the bolt holes in the wing spar attach lug (the piece of thick steel sheet coming out of the wing root). The hole had been drilled far far too close to the edge of the metal, and under certain loads, gusts, or other flight conditions could easily have caused a crash. Although these are of mcourse non-certified airplanes, the FAA and the engineering community have researched this and come up with a very clear explanation of "edge distance" for structural fastener holes for certified aircraft. Because this is primary life or death safety, this is one area where ultralights, experimentals, and commercial airplanes all need to adhere to the same principle. Measuring from the CENTER of the hole, you need to have at least two times the diameter of the bolt before you reach the edge of the piece of metal.This is a rule for "sheet metal", which in general is anything under 1/8 inch thick. Plates (above 1/8 inch), tubes and billet have different limitations for fastener attachments. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 8/7/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016, 10:22 AM "mikemac" When buying a used Firestar 1 or 2, would you please list what you would want to find out. I have never owned a Kolb. Any suggestions appreciated. I was told by some local high time kolb jockies to make sure it is a seven rib as opposed to five. Thank you in advance for any help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459295#459295 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:32 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist Bill, Good thing you caught that, you certainly don't want a bolt hole pulling out during flight. Since that hole is drilled during the alignment of the wing to fuselage you can't just drill a new hole somewhere else without messing with the alignment of the wing. In some cases the recommended procedure to fix an out of alignment wing is to weld the hole shut and re-drill it in the proper place. So this leaves the question, is the wing currently aligned properly? If not, perhaps moving the hole will fix two problems at once. If the wing is aligned properly, then there may (stress only may) be a problem with the wing elsewhere. A couple of things come to mind like covering might have pulled the wing out of "square" or something was not built properly internally. I would start by getting it into a flight attitude, level in all directions and start checking things like wing angle and square. Also look for any "twist" that should not be there. Curious about a couple of things. Has this plane flown? Did you buy it from the builder? If you look down the leading edge, do the wings align? Give Bryan at the factory a call, I bet he has seen this before and will know the best way to proceed. Good luck and let us know what you come up with. Post pictures too. Might help someone else. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:41 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist I just bought a used Firestar, and I found a potentially dangerous problem with one of the bolt holes in the wing spar attach lug (the piece of thick steel sheet coming out of the wing root). The hole had been drilled far far too close to the edge of the metal, and under certain loads, gusts, or other flight conditions could easily have caused a crash. Although these are of mcourse non-certified airplanes, the FAA and the engineering community have researched this and come up with a very clear explanation of "edge distance" for structural fastener holes for certified aircraft. Because this is primary life or death safety, this is one area where ultralights, experimentals, and commercial airplanes all need to adhere to the same principle. Measuring from the CENTER of the hole, you need to have at least two times the diameter of the bolt before you reach the edge of the piece of metal.This is a rule for "sheet metal", which in general is anything under 1/8 inch thick. Plates (above 1/8 inch), tubes and billet have different limitations for fastener attachments. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 8/7/16, mikemac wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, August 7, 2016, 10:22 AM "mikemac" When buying a used Firestar 1 or 2, would you please list what you would want to find out. I have never owned a Kolb. Any suggestions appreciated. I was told by some local high time kolb jockies to make sure it is a seven rib as opposed to five. Thank you in advance for any help. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459295#459295 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:59 AM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Kolb-List: Extra It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop, BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this summer. No-nonsense price is 22K Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer available Russ Kinne, russk50@gmail.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:24 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist From: "racerjerry" Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper measurerment? For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough room. I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:38 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting lug. Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it. I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to drill back out accurately. The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown a fiberglass repair. Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM "racerjerry" Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper measurerment? For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough room. I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:37 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist Bill, Sounds like you are on the right track about this. I do like the idea of adding "more tab". Welding would be ideal. Welding a hole shut does pose hardening problems, usually solved with "normalizing" heating. Neither are things I would like to do after the wing is covered, but it can be done with careful planning. If after checking alignment you determine that a new hole has to be drilled, perhaps you could over size the existing hole and weld in a short steel tube of the proper ID. That way you don't have to drill through a weld bead but you can relocate the hole by moving the tube around in the oversized hole. Alignment could be tricky. The idea of sandwiching some flat steel on one or both sides of the existing tab is a good one provided you have the space to put some bolts. I would think at least two would be preferred so that the extension cannot pivot around the clamping bolt(s). If the plane was damaged enough to bend fuselage parts, keep looking and checking everything. Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands, hopefully it is all just cosmetic stuff. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting lug. Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it. I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to drill back out accurately. The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown a fiberglass repair. Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM "racerjerry" Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper measurerment? For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough room. I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:47 AM PST US From: "Bob" Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist Before "fixing" it I would suggest your very experienced aerospace engineer do some basic calculations of the loads on the fitting. He will be well aware of how to calculate the "lug efficiency factor" for the steel part. The largest load is in the transverse direction for this part not the usually worrisome lug tension direction, so he will need both the lift and drag forces carried by the fitting. The lift strut actually puts a fair amount of compression into the fitting. Should be pretty easy to estimate. Also compare the strength to the adjacent load carrying parts. Best of luck.. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting lug. Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it. I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to drill back out accurately. The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown a fiberglass repair. Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist "racerjerry" Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper measurerment? For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough room. I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:41 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist You guys are certainly on the right track with your thinking too :) My engineer (who I am SO lucky to have available!!!) looked at the fitting and estimated that the loads are.. about... in THAT direction. The combination of lifting loads, drag loads, and the inward force from the wing struts were all taken into account. This particular engineer is more than capable of setting up a classic engineering "Free Body" diagram and calculating the loads and directional vectors on the fasteners exactly. But in this case his experience indicated that the calculations would very likely indicate that a good "factor of safety" and conservative thinking would both point to adding material around the hole. I believe that he suggested a bolted doubler instead of a welded doubler only for the sake of heat management, since there are rivets and fabric near the fitting that would be affected. Welding large washers tot he fitting would certainly also be an option. But I believe that the actual repair will be guided by how well the wings are aligned, as one or two of you have mentioned. If the alignment is poor, then the hole should be moved, which leads me more toward the extra effort of welding. If the hole alignment is accurate, then a doubler system (with two additional bolts to prevent rotation) maty be the easier way to achieve the same strength. While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, Bob wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 10:25 AM "Bob" Before "fixing" it I would suggest your very experienced aerospace engineer do some basic calculations of the loads on the fitting. He will be well aware of how to calculate the "lug efficiency factor" for the steel part. The largest load is in the transverse direction for this part not the usually worrisome lug tension direction, so he will need both the lift and drag forces carried by the fitting. The lift strut actually puts a fair amount of compression into the fitting. Should be pretty easy to estimate. Also compare the strength to the adjacent load carrying parts. Best of luck.. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 9:53 AM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist The edge distance problem in this case is that sweepback would make the problem worse rather than better.The hole is too close to the inboard edge of the mounting lug. Sweep forward would resolve this particular issue, but then it would create a lot of other problems. It's not the right way to do it. I consulted with a VERY highly experienced aerospace engineer with 50 years of experience. This is not a matter for a "garage" fix or a "that's about right" approach. His recommendation was also to verify the wing alignment, and make up a patch plate doubler that was bolted to the existing lug. The problem is that welding up the hole often creates a hard spot where it becomes difficult to drill back out accurately. The airplane had apparently been flown, the tachometer shows 147 hours. I bought it from the second owner, who had not flown it. The story I got was that the builder flew it, did a little damage to it one day, repaired PART of the damage, fixed the fabric at the wingtip, and repainted the airplane. So the damaged wingtip was repaired, but the slightly longeron tubes in the forward fuselage were not bent back into place. I am betting he replaced the nose cone, because in order to bend those tubes the way he did the nose cone would have shown a fiberglass repair. Last Saturday, after consulting with my engineer on the wing mounting lug, I carefully bent the longeron tubes back into place using bar clamps and a scissor jack, and got everything almost straight as new. A little more work will get it perfect, but I need to figure out the right tool for that. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, racerjerry wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 8:56 AM "racerjerry" Just exactly how much "meat" is left at the narrowest point between the hole and edge? I am betting you don't need ANY mod as 4130 is plenty strong. Caliper measurerment? For a reinforcement, maybe you could weld a washer to each side and not disturb alignment? Or sandwich a 4130 plate of similar thickness to one side (better). See if there is enough room. I remember when setting my own Firestar up, that I wanted a bit more edge distance myself, so I set the tiniest degree of sweepback into the wings. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459326#459326 Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:19 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking. After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to another. The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time. My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes. Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my flying skills. So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that way. My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight. When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat. Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work my way around. There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold it. Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time I go out. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist ~snip~ While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. ~Snip~ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:39 PM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist I'm not a structural engineer,,, so think on this,,, when the wing I's creating lift the lift strut (because of the triangular geometry) pulls the wing to the center. with almost equal sizes of wing panels inboard and outboard from the liftstrut, the in board attach fitting should have very little up or down pressure. with that said the edge distance should be most affected by the drag pulling the wing back. but without wind tunnel testing I don't know which force is greater. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:13 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting Yes, but the rear universal joint should keep the main wing spar fitting at a fixed fore-aft distance, which should not change other than a few thousandths due to heat expansion. So there is no scenario where the wing fitting will move forward or rearward in the fuselage fitting it could be a lot closer without any chance of having it difficult to put together. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 12:20 PM "Stuart Harner" That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking. After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to another. The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time. My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes. Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my flying skills. So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that way. My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight. When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat. Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work my way around. There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold it. Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time I go out. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist ~snip~ While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. ~Snip~ Forum - - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - MATRONICS LIST WIKI - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting From: Dave Kulp Good advice about setting up, Stuart, When I was new with my FlagFly at a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it, and beats your ear with it all. One day he was telling me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean _NO_ chat with others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods far from my base and any nearby roads !! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA On 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart Harner wrote: > > That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking. > > After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to another. > > The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time. > > My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes. > > Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my flying skills. > > So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that way. > > My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight. > > When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat. > > Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. > > Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work my way around. > > There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold it. > > Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time I go out. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist > > ~snip~ > > While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. > > The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. > > Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. > > ~Snip~ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:20 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting Boy ain=99t that the truth! Distractions are just trouble waiting to happen. Even though it is a PITA, I always put the pins in from the front and the safety clips on the back, just in case. The theory being that they will be more likely to stay in place. IF I had a hangar where I didn=99t have to fold every flight, I would consider replacing the pin with a bolt and probably use some spacer tubing fore and aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that some torque could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be merely academic. J Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Kulp Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:46 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting Good advice about setting up, Stuart, When I was new with my FlagFly at a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it, and beats your ear with it all. One day he was telling me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods far from my base and any nearby roads !! Dave Kulp Bethlehem, PA On 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart Harner wrote: That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking. After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to another. The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time. My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes. Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my flying skills. So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that way. My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight. When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat. Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work my way around. There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold it. Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time I go out. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist ~snip~ While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. ~Snip~ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:12 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting For whatever it's worth, I plan to use an AN hex bolt or Clevis Bolt, with an AN castellated shear nut, and a wire clip or safety pin through the Cotter Pin hole in the bolt. Actually, instead of a castle nut a "wing nut" would be perfect for this since you don't need any tools. But regardless of whether there is a nut, there still needs to be a Cotter pin or Safety pin to keep the pin from backing out of the hole. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 1:17 PM #yiv2623329048 #yiv2623329048 -- _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv2623329048 #yiv2623329048 p.yiv2623329048MsoNormal, #yiv2623329048 li.yiv2623329048MsoNormal, #yiv2623329048 div.yiv2623329048MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv2623329048 a:link, #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2623329048 a:visited, #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2623329048 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} #yiv2623329048 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} #yiv2623329048 p.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate, #yiv2623329048 li.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate, #yiv2623329048 div.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;color:black;} #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048HTMLPreformattedChar {color:black;} #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048BalloonTextChar {color:black;} #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048EmailStyle22 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv2623329048 .yiv2623329048MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2623329048 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv2623329048 div.yiv2623329048WordSection1 {} #yiv2623329048 Boy aint that the truth! Distractions are just trouble waiting to happen. Even though it is a PITA, I always put the pins in from the front and the safety clips on the back, just in case. The theory being that they will be more likely to stay in place. IF I had a hangar where I didnt have to fold every flight, I would consider replacing the pin with a bolt and probably use some spacer tubing fore and aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that some torque could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be merely academic. J Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Kulp Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:46 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting Good advice about setting up, Stuart,When I was new with my FlagFly at a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it, and beats your ear with it all.One day he was telling me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods far from my base and any nearby roads !!Dave KulpBethlehem, PAOn 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart Harner wrote:--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart Harner" That stood out to me the first time I saw it too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft before it was a little odd looking. After considering the how's and why's of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. This allows for correction of minor differences from one wing to another. The factory very well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. However, that means that if the builder makes any variations in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be compensated for at a later time. My other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the holes. Just as a thought process, the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my flying skills. So my take is that since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason it was made that way. My BIGGEST concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a "procedure" that works for me since I fold and unfold for every flight. When starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing and repeat. Then I install the aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. Once the tail is in place I then do a complete pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as I work my way around. There is more to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold it. Also when folding it up, I put the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are "right" the next time I go out. Stuart -----Original Message-----From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill BerleSent: Monday, August 08, 2016 1:04 PMTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist ~snip~ While I'm on this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing mounting lug system. The mounting lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is not really in proper "double shear" load, the open space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin shank. Can anyone tell me if there is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. ~Snip~ ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:02 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Returned Mail: Extra From: Russ Kinne How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested? > On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com wrote: > > The following message from Russ Kinne was not authorized for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum. > > Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the maximum filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board Administrator if you have questions.] > > > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php > > From: Russ Kinne > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Extra > **************************************** > > It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop, > BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this summer. > No-nonsense price is 22K > Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer available > Russ Kinne, > russk50@gmail.com > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:15 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Returned Mail: Extra I have a feeling that Matt doesn't really pay all that much attention to this list. This happened to me several weeks ago, same message, yet it went through with no problem. Sorry that you are having to sell. It looks like a nice plane. Larry On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Russ Kinne wrote: > > How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested? > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com wrote: > > > > The following message from Russ Kinne was not > authorized for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum. > > > > Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the maximum > filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board > Administrator if you have questions.] > > > > > > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php > > > > From: Russ Kinne > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Extra > > **************************************** > > > > It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs > TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop, > > BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this > summer. > > No-nonsense price is 22K > > Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer > available > > Russ Kinne, > > russk50@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:27 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Returned Mail: Extra Larry, many thanx for your info. Regards to your falcon! Apparently my post did go thru. Fair winds, Russ > On Aug 8, 2016, at 6:53 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > I have a feeling that Matt doesn't really pay all that much attention to this list. This happened to me several weeks ago, same message, yet it went through with no problem. > > Sorry that you are having to sell. It looks like a nice plane. > Larry > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Russ Kinne > wrote: > > > How do I contact the Board Administrator, as you suggested? > > > On Aug 8, 2016, at 11:25 AM, kolb-list@matronics.com wrote: > > > > The following message from Russ Kinne > was not authorized for entry in the Matronics Email Lists forum. > > > > Reason: There were problems with the attachments [Sorry, but the maximum filesize for all Attachments is reached. Please contact the Board Administrator if you have questions.] > > > > > > Visit this URL to register: http://forums.matronics.com//index.php > > > > From: Russ Kinne > > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Extra > > **************************************** > > > > It is with regret that I feel I must sell my Xtra, N740VP. It has 123hrs TT, Rotax 912, 3-blade Warp prop, > > BRS 1050 chute, just repacked, ICOM A6 radio. Would like to sell it this summer. > > No-nonsense price is 22K > > Enclosed trailer/hangar with remote electric winch, and open trailer available > > Russ Kinne, > > russk50@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================== =========== > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > ======================== =========== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ======================== =========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ======================== =========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ======================== =========== > > > > > > > -- > The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. > > If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting From: Gary Aman dont think they make a good AN wing nut.I had one strip as I was tightening it on the tail cable attach at the bottom of the tail post. > On Aug 8, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > For whatever it's worth, I plan to use an AN hex bolt or Clevis Bolt, with an AN castellated shear nut, and a wire clip or safety pin through the Cotter Pin hole in the bolt. Actually, instead of a castle nut a "wing nut" would be perfect for this since you don't need any tools. But regardless of whether there is a nut, there still needs to be a Cotter pin or Safety pin to keep the pin from backing out of the hole. > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 8/8/16, Stuart Harner wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root fitting > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, August 8, 2016, 1:17 PM > > #yiv2623329048 > #yiv2623329048 -- > > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 > 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 > 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 > 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 > 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 > 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > #yiv2623329048 > #yiv2623329048 p.yiv2623329048MsoNormal, #yiv2623329048 > li.yiv2623329048MsoNormal, #yiv2623329048 > div.yiv2623329048MsoNormal > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 a:link, #yiv2623329048 > span.yiv2623329048MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv2623329048 a:visited, #yiv2623329048 > span.yiv2623329048MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} > #yiv2623329048 p > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 pre > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 p.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate, #yiv2623329048 > li.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate, #yiv2623329048 > div.yiv2623329048MsoAcetate > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:8.0pt;color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048HTMLPreformattedChar > {color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048BalloonTextChar > {color:black;} > #yiv2623329048 span.yiv2623329048EmailStyle22 > {color:#1F497D;} > #yiv2623329048 .yiv2623329048MsoChpDefault > {font-size:10.0pt;} > _filtered #yiv2623329048 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > #yiv2623329048 div.yiv2623329048WordSection1 > {} > #yiv2623329048 Boy aint that the truth! > Distractions are just trouble waiting to > happen. Even though it is a PITA, I always > put the pins in from the front and the safety clips on the > back, just in case. The theory being that they will be more > likely to stay in place. IF I had a hangar where I didnt > have to fold every flight, I would consider replacing the > pin with a bolt and probably use some spacer tubing fore and > aft of the rib tab to fill up the gap so that some torque > could be applied to the bolt. Then all of this would be > merely academic. J Stuart From: > owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf > Of Dave Kulp > Sent: Monday, August > 08, 2016 2:46 PM > To: > kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: > Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist now wing root > fitting Good advice about > setting up, Stuart,When I was new with my FlagFly at > a new airstrip, there was the pilot seen at every airport > who knows everything, has all the experiences to prove it, > and beats your ear with it all.One day he was telling > me all about himself as I set up my FF and did my > pre-flight. After flying for an hour and returning, when I > folded the wings I discovered I had failed to safety pin one > of the wing pins. I'm reluctant to hurt anyone's > feelings, but from that time on, when I was setting up or > pre-flighting, there was NO, and I mean NO chat with > others, unless there was a hangar fire. Rather he's > hurt than me hanging from my BRS and falling into a woods > far from my base and any nearby roads !!Dave > KulpBethlehem, PAOn 8/8/2016 3:20 PM, Stuart > Harner wrote:--> > That stood out to me the first time I saw it > too. Having only worked on "certified" aircraft > before it was a little odd looking. > After considering the how's and why's > of the situation it appeared to me that since the fuselage > and root rib are produced at the factory, the rest of it is > up to the builder. The hole in the fuselage tabs are drilled > at the factory but it is up to the builder to drill the > final hole in the rib tab after assuring accurate alignment. > This allows for correction of minor differences from one > wing to another. The factory very > well could build the fuselage with tight fitting tabs and > set the root rib up properly and drill that tab too. > However, that means that if the builder makes any variations > in the wing, they are "locked in" and cannot be > compensated for at a later time. My > other main thought after actually folding and unfolding a > couple of times is that the gap between the fuselage and rib > tabs is a good thing. It makes single handed assembly much > easier than if it were a close tolerance fit. I have helped > install wings on planes where it took 4 people to get it to > line up enough to put the main spar bolt in the > holes. Just as a thought process, > the force it takes to bend the pin has to be way lower than > the force it would take to shear the pin were it a close > tolerance fit. On my Firefly the pins are 5/16" > aircraft grade. I have not looked up the shear strength as I > trust that I am too much of a chicken pilot to ever get > anyway near that amount of force. I would bet that that > force it takes to even bend that pin is still way above my > flying skills. So my take is that > since there are no known issues with this setup it has to be > way stronger than needed, and the ease of use is the reason > it was made that way. My BIGGEST > concern with this pin joint is to make DARN sure I don't > forget the safety pin! In that vein I have established a > "procedure" that works for me since I fold and > unfold for every flight. When > starting to assemble for flight. I remove all 4 pins and > safety clips for the wings and place them on the seat where > they are easily reached. Swing the wing into place and rest > it on the struts at a slight angle so the wing wants to > rotate into the top joint. Insert the upper pin and safety > it right then and there. Install the strut and pin and > safety it right then and there. Move on to the other wing > and repeat. Then I install the > aileron rods and pin and safety. Then I do a visual > inspection of all 6 pins and safety pins. > Once the tail is in place I then do a complete > pre-flight inspection. Start at the same point each time and > inspect each part in order as I walk around the plane. The > pins and safety pins get inspected again for a third time as > I work my way around. There is more > to my procedures (habits) than this, but you get the idea > about how paranoid I am about the pins and safeties. All > this probably adds 15 minutes to my getting ready to go over > the time it would take if I didn't have to unfold > it. Also when folding it up, I put > the pins and fasten the safety pins back in the holes of the > fuselage. Just a habit I try to enforce to assure things are > "right" the next time I go out. > Stuart -----Original > Message-----From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill BerleSent: Monday, August 08, > 2016 1:04 PMTo: kolb-list@matronics.comSubject: > Re: Kolb-List: Re: Used Firestar Checklist > ~snip~ While I'm on > this subject, I would like to ask a question about this wing > mounting lug system. The mounting > lug on the spar fitting looks like it is .090 steel > material. The space between the "Ears" or lugs > on the square fuselage tube looks like there is 3/8 or 1/2 > inch between them. So even though the wing cannot slide fore > and aft (because of the trailing edge U-joint), there are > still unsupported gaps between the spar fitting and the > fuselage lugs. In this case, that means the bolt or pin is > not really in proper "double shear" load, the open > space on both sides of the spar fitting allows a bending > load at the unsupported parts of the bolt/pin > shank. Can anyone tell me if there > is any good reason for this gap to be there? It would seem > to me that a short section of tube welded in to the spar > fitting would put that wing bolt/pin in proper "double > shear" load. I'm NOT saying that the Kolb design is > defective, I'm asking why this critical bolt is not > supported in the gap between the fuselage lugs. > ~Snip~ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.