Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:54 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Patrick Ladd)
2. 10:05 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Larry Cottrell)
3. 10:14 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
4. 11:16 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Bill Berle)
5. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Rick Neilsen)
6. 03:00 PM - Larry Cottrell (william sullivan)
7. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Wayne Schneider)
8. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (John Hauck)
9. 05:35 PM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
Hi, I stood my Mk3 on its nose gunning it into 90 degree turn on my first o
uting. After that I paid more attention to keeping the stick hard back when
taxying. The fist time I flew a passenger she woudn`t unstick and I just m
ade it out of my field over the hedge. I hadn`t put in extra `up` trim to c
ompensate. When I did, she was fine. I put both incidents down to incompete
nt piloting, not particularly to the high thrust line though that no doubt
contributed. Neither mistake happened again and as I suggested, normal pilo
ting skills took care of it. The high thrust line is something to be aware
of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat
________________________________
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server@matronic
s.com> on behalf of Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
Sent: 19 September 2016 14:59:30
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS Engine Installation
Pat/All
One of my early reduction drive VW configurations I had a rather high thrus
t line. Flying solo I had to feed in power slowly so that I wouldn't nose o
ver. The first time I flew with a passenger I found I had to reduce power t
o keep the thrust from overpowering my elevator on takeoff. With a passenge
r at low air speeds with full power and full up elevator it would not pitch
up. At higher speeds it was just OK. I never.... attempted a go around wi
th a passenger. Actually I never flew with a passenger again in that config
uration. I switched fairly quick to the new VW engine mount that significan
tly lowered the engine. In this case the high trust line was down right dan
gerous.
Rick Neilsen
1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd@hotmail.com<mai
lto:patrickjladd@hotmail.com>> wrote:
thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handlin
g >>
No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher
than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal
flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your sp
eed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing a
pproach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim
as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
Pat wrote:The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a
major problem. (I think) Pat
When you firewall the engine and the plane dives for the ground rather than
up, you have a problem!
Just saying,
Larry
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended.
The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks
of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious
problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are
formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are
not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane
that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason
you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order
to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing
airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special
procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have
to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff,
or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be
designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The
world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside
the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that
you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
Bill/All
Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You
have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it
will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can
but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing
this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add
power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or
add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full
power with locked brakes at least not for very long.
A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount
was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive
moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing
revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground
solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I
couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up
elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along
the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would
allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground.
Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I
would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this.
Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb
rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does
considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add
to the discussion.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport,
> "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no
> valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the
> aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
>
> Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and
> racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you
> have special procedures to operate safely.
>
> And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality
> you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to
> rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger.
> That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for
> just fun sport flying.
>
> I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special
> procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have
> to be line that.
>
> You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel
> outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind
> of car that you would want to go out driving for fun?
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
>
Message 6
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Larry Cottrell, please send me a private message. I have a non-Kolb question
for you. Or, can somebody please give me Larry's e-mail address?
E-mail: williamtsullivan@att.net
do not archive
Thanks
Bill Sullivan
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures?
On 9/20/2016 Tuesday 11:13 AM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you
intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks
of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some
serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are
formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks
are not known or anticipated that bad things happen.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
Kolbers:
It takes flying skills unique to the Kolb high thrust line aircraft to
fly the aircraft safely. That is with the thrust line in the standard
position. Any position higher than standard is dangerous for reason
stated by Rick Neilsen.
Upgrading from an 80 to a 100 hp 912, I thought something was wrong with
my MKIII when it did not immediately break ground on takeoff. I had to
reduce power to get off the ground.
That high thrust line is like a giant lever, pushing the nose down the
more power is added. In Rick's case it overpowered the elevator.
Something else to think about, the higher the thrust line reduces prop
wash over the elevators.
Close proximity of the prop tips to the tail boom did not present a
problem on my MKIII. I have flown with props as close as 3/4". This
was thoroughly tested and proven to be safe after making two successful
flights from Alabama to Alaska.
Good pilots listen to good advice. Rick N's advice is good and well
taken.
I have often wondered how much better my Kolb Firestar and MKIII would
have flown with a tractor engine. My Ultrastar flew well and much more
like a tractor engine with the engine mounted under the tail boom. The
center of thrust was in the center of the pilot's back. One reason the
Ultrastar looped much easier than the Firestar.
john h
Near Burns Junction, Oregon
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Engine Installation
Bill/All
Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line.
You have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so
that it will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low
as you can but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage
tube. Even doing this you will need to make some adjustment in your
flying technique. Add power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power
reduce back pressure or add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff
will not likely include full power with locked brakes at least not for
very long.
A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW
mount was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The
redrive moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early
testing revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on
the ground solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a
passenger I found I couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because
I would run out of up elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass
strip and just ran along the ground, no elevator position all the way
back to the up stop would allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power
and it jumped off the ground. Playing with lower power and higher air
speeds I got a decent climb rate. I would really like to hear how
improving piloting skills would fix this. Lowering the engine improved
everything including a bit of increased climb rate and speeds. So from
the extreme lowering the thrust line does considerably help Kolb
performance. I just thought my experience might add to the discussion.
As usual worth what you paid for it.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport,
"fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is
no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate
the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane.
Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes,
and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course
you have special procedures to operate safely.
And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special
personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not
being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely
with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's
airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying.
I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special
procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not
have to be line that.
You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel
outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the
kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun?
Bill Berle
-List" rel="noreferrer"
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Message 9
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Subject: | Re: HKS Engine Installation |
[quote="Radegast"]How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures?
[quote]
That is what this thread has become. What Rick said. What John said.
But since you asked for my $.02, my personal experience is that in the MKIII, if
you have a big passenger, and abort an approach/need to go around; flaps are
not your friend and you will very nearly run out of elevator authority if you
leave them down. That is why I have VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab,
and the stab is gap sealed to the elevators.
When doing departure stalls, at the break you should aggressively push the nose
over but do not add any power until the airplane is fully recovered and flying.
Full throttle with a high thrust line and a stalled/non-flying wing can rotate
you around the center of drag/mass quite smartly. Probably more than you wanted.
That is all I can think of that has not already been addressed.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460626#460626
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