Kolb-List Digest Archive

Tue 09/20/16


Total Messages Posted: 9



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 09:54 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Patrick Ladd)
     2. 10:05 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Larry Cottrell)
     3. 10:14 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
     4. 11:16 AM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Bill Berle)
     5. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Rick Neilsen)
     6. 03:00 PM - Larry Cottrell (william sullivan)
     7. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (Wayne Schneider)
     8. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: HKS Engine Installation (John Hauck)
     9. 05:35 PM - Re: HKS Engine Installation (Richard Pike)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 09:54:10 AM PST US
    From: Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    Hi, I stood my Mk3 on its nose gunning it into 90 degree turn on my first o uting. After that I paid more attention to keeping the stick hard back when taxying. The fist time I flew a passenger she woudn`t unstick and I just m ade it out of my field over the hedge. I hadn`t put in extra `up` trim to c ompensate. When I did, she was fine. I put both incidents down to incompete nt piloting, not particularly to the high thrust line though that no doubt contributed. Neither mistake happened again and as I suggested, normal pilo ting skills took care of it. The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat ________________________________ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com <owner-kolb-list-server@matronic s.com> on behalf of Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> Sent: 19 September 2016 14:59:30 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: HKS Engine Installation Pat/All One of my early reduction drive VW configurations I had a rather high thrus t line. Flying solo I had to feed in power slowly so that I wouldn't nose o ver. The first time I flew with a passenger I found I had to reduce power t o keep the thrust from overpowering my elevator on takeoff. With a passenge r at low air speeds with full power and full up elevator it would not pitch up. At higher speeds it was just OK. I never.... attempted a go around wi th a passenger. Actually I never flew with a passenger again in that config uration. I switched fairly quick to the new VW engine mount that significan tly lowered the engine. In this case the high trust line was down right dan gerous. Rick Neilsen 1st Redrive VW powered MKIIIC On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Patrick Ladd <patrickjladd@hotmail.com<mai lto:patrickjladd@hotmail.com>> wrote: thrust line being too high will cause problems with performance and handlin g >> No it doesn`t. This is always a criticism levelled at planes with a higher than usual thrust line. In practice it makes no difference that your normal flying instincts can`t cope with automatically. If you are pushing your sp eed envelope from high to low, say when you switch from cruise to landing a pproach speed you may have to re trim but so what, you will have to retrim as the flaps come down anyway. Good luck. Pat


    Message 2


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    Time: 10:05:43 AM PST US
    From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    Pat wrote:The high thrust line is something to be aware of, but it is not a major problem. (I think) Pat When you firewall the engine and the plane dives for the ground rather than up, you have a problem! Just saying, Larry


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:14:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
    Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are not known or anticipated that bad things happen. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:16:41 AM PST US
    From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane. Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special procedures to operate safely. And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying. I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that. You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun? Bill Berle


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:59:55 PM PST US
    From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    Bill/All Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full power with locked brakes at least not for very long. A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground. Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this. Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add to the discussion. As usual worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, > "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no > valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the > aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane. > > Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and > racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you > have special procedures to operate safely. > > And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality > you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to > rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. > That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for > just fun sport flying. > > I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special > procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have > to be line that. > > You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel > outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind > of car that you would want to go out driving for fun? > > > Bill Berle > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 03:00:26 PM PST US
    From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
    Subject: Larry Cottrell
    Larry Cottrell, please send me a private message. I have a non-Kolb question for you. Or, can somebody please give me Larry's e-mail address? E-mail: williamtsullivan@att.net do not archive Thanks Bill Sullivan


    Message 7


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    Time: 04:38:28 PM PST US
    From: Wayne Schneider <jwaynes@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures? On 9/20/2016 Tuesday 11:13 AM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Pat, I think your post summarizes the situation very well, perhaps not as you intended. The typical pilot with little or no first hand awareness of the quirks of a high thrust line aircraft will make assumptions that can create some serious problems. Once those quirks are recognized and operating procedures are formulated to deal with them, they can be tolerated. It is when those quirks are not known or anticipated that bad things happen. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Would you consider yourself to be a good person? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460618#460618 > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:13:54 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    Kolbers: It takes flying skills unique to the Kolb high thrust line aircraft to fly the aircraft safely. That is with the thrust line in the standard position. Any position higher than standard is dangerous for reason stated by Rick Neilsen. Upgrading from an 80 to a 100 hp 912, I thought something was wrong with my MKIII when it did not immediately break ground on takeoff. I had to reduce power to get off the ground. That high thrust line is like a giant lever, pushing the nose down the more power is added. In Rick's case it overpowered the elevator. Something else to think about, the higher the thrust line reduces prop wash over the elevators. Close proximity of the prop tips to the tail boom did not present a problem on my MKIII. I have flown with props as close as 3/4". This was thoroughly tested and proven to be safe after making two successful flights from Alabama to Alaska. Good pilots listen to good advice. Rick N's advice is good and well taken. I have often wondered how much better my Kolb Firestar and MKIII would have flown with a tractor engine. My Ultrastar flew well and much more like a tractor engine with the engine mounted under the tail boom. The center of thrust was in the center of the pilot's back. One reason the Ultrastar looped much easier than the Firestar. john h Near Burns Junction, Oregon From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: HKS Engine Installation Bill/All Yes and No. The nature of the beast is that it has a high thrust line. You have the opportunity to get the thrust line as low as you can so that it will fly as good as it can. Work towards getting the prop as low as you can but leave some clearance between the prop and the fuselage tube. Even doing this you will need to make some adjustment in your flying technique. Add power add back pressure on the stick, reduce power reduce back pressure or add forward pressure. Your short field takeoff will not likely include full power with locked brakes at least not for very long. A few people seemed to question piloting skills. The early Redrive VW mount was the same mount that I had for my direct drive VW engine. The redrive moved the prop 6 inches higher and doubled the thrust. Early testing revealed that I couldn't go to full power till I hit 50 MPH on the ground solo. Using flaps made it worse. On climb out with a passenger I found I couldn't climb below 65 MPH with full power because I would run out of up elevator. I started on a five thousand foot grass strip and just ran along the ground, no elevator position all the way back to the up stop would allow me to rotate. I pulled back the power and it jumped off the ground. Playing with lower power and higher air speeds I got a decent climb rate. I would really like to hear how improving piloting skills would fix this. Lowering the engine improved everything including a bit of increased climb rate and speeds. So from the extreme lowering the thrust line does considerably help Kolb performance. I just thought my experience might add to the discussion. As usual worth what you paid for it. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote: I have to disagree on principle with some of the comments. On a sport, "fun" airplane that is specifically designed to be easy to fly, there is no valid reason you should have to make MAJOR changes to how you operate the aircraft, in order to not nose over and ding the airplane. Special purpose airplanes, yes. Crop sprayers, and military airplanes, and racing airplanes, and gliders, and transport category... of course you have special procedures to operate safely. And of course ALL airplanes have their own quirks and special personality you have to learn. I'm talking about big stuff, like not being able to rotate for takeoff, or not being able to take off safely with a passenger. That should be designed out of an "every man's airplane" that is used for just fun sport flying. I'm not saying that it is dangerous to be forced to use special procedures. The world is not going to stop turning. But it should not have to be line that. You can LEARN to drive a strange car where they put the steering wheel outside the door and the brake pedal is on the roof. But is that the kind of car that you would want to go out driving for fun? Bill Berle -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 9


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    Time: 05:35:19 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: HKS Engine Installation
    From: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
    [quote="Radegast"]How about giving us a list of the quirks and procedures? [quote] That is what this thread has become. What Rick said. What John said. But since you asked for my $.02, my personal experience is that in the MKIII, if you have a big passenger, and abort an approach/need to go around; flaps are not your friend and you will very nearly run out of elevator authority if you leave them down. That is why I have VG's on the underside of the horizontal stab, and the stab is gap sealed to the elevators. When doing departure stalls, at the break you should aggressively push the nose over but do not add any power until the airplane is fully recovered and flying. Full throttle with a high thrust line and a stalled/non-flying wing can rotate you around the center of drag/mass quite smartly. Probably more than you wanted. That is all I can think of that has not already been addressed. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460626#460626




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