Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:28 AM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell)
2. 10:09 AM - More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Bill Berle)
3. 11:59 AM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Rick Neilsen)
4. 04:39 PM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell)
5. 05:03 PM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Richard Pike)
6. 06:04 PM - Fw: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell)
7. 06:07 PM - Fw: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
Have you checked with Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes
that I have. That would have been my only option with my remote location. I
am sure there are a few more muffler shops where you are.
Larry
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is different than
> mine !
>
> The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that are NOT
> separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a break, with a "Swivel
> joint" and springs, just 2 inches outside of the exhaust port. These
> undoubtedly take up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple
> of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's "solid, no swivel/spring
> joint" system.
>
> So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible position (so I
> can get the great Kolb handling that I've been hearing about), I may wind
> up having to make up a new exhaust system that takes up less space, or
> routes the exhaust pipes a different direction, etc..
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM
>
>
> So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust line
> be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the
> aircraft handling?
>
> Bill Berle
> --------
>
> Since I am one of the few that have an
> HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I have
> mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me
> about 3/4 of an inch clearance.
> As to your question about how high- I cannot tell
> you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell you
> that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the
> extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you
> that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give it
> full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on the
> stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high
> yet.
> I once rode in a Mark three that when full
> throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up
> pressure. It scared me!Larry
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 2
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| Subject: | More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
Yes we have plenty of welding and muffler shops here, I'm sure I can get anything
I need made. I have an FAA/Boeing/Lockheed approved weld shop that does my
certified airplane parts. Larry if you are stuck and you need something made to
a drawing, I can definitely put you in the right hands.
To be honest, this whole interference thing has been making me crazy (crazier),
since I have photos of at least two good HKS installations on this same FS2 airframe
without creating this problem. I just couldn't imagine everyone else having
to scratch their head over this for months like I did.
So now... since I will have to modify or change the exhaust system (because the
one I got with the engine will not work as-is).... the question becomes: Where
is the very best possible place to route the exhaust and mount the muffler on
the Firestar/HKS combination?
I have read Larry's postings and e-mails (thank you!) with an explanation of how
he feels the muffler prevented enough airflow from getting to the cylinders
when it is mounted in front of the engine. Larry also mentioned that it created
a lot of drag, which he had to fix using an airflow baffle plate behind it.
So perhaps the top of the wing in front of the engine is not a good place for the
muffler on this aircraft?
Has anyone mounted the muffler underneath the bottom of the fuselage, at the intersection
of the steel cage and fuselage tube ? This would put the muffler a
lot further away from blocking airflow to the cylinders (and keep the noise further
away from the pilot's head), at the cost of another four feet of tubing
weight.
I have planned on using an aluminum muffler to reduce weight, because all of you
on the Kolb list have convinced me that reducing weight is a primary consideration.
The stock HKS cylindrical steel muffler weighs at least 12 pounds by my
estimate, and an equivalent aluminum one might be half that. That's a big chunk
of weight that can be removed, even if the muffler will not last as long as
steel would.
What do you guys think is the best possible location for the exhaust and muffler,
if you had the chance to start with a clean sheet of paper?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 10/11/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 6:28 AM
Have you checked with
Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes that I
have. That would have been my only option with my remote
location. I am sure there are a few more muffler shops where
you are.Larry
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016
at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is
different than mine !
The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that
are NOT separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a
break, with a "Swivel joint" and springs, just 2
inches outside of the exhaust port. These undoubtedly take
up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple
of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's
"solid, no swivel/spring joint" system.
So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible
position (so I can get the great Kolb handling that I've
been hearing about), I may wind up having to make up a new
exhaust system that takes up less space, or routes the
exhaust pipes a different direction, etc..
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
------------------------------ --------------
On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference
Questions
To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
<kolb-list@matronics.com>
Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM
So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust
line
be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the
aircraft handling?
Bill Berle
--------
Since I am one of the few that have an
HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I
have
mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me
about 3/4 of an inch clearance.
As to your question about how high- I cannot tell
you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell
you
that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the
extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you
that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give
it
full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on
the
stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high
yet.
I once rode in a Mark three that when full
throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up
pressure. It scared me!Larry
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If you forward this email, or any part of
it, please remove my email address before sending.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
Bill/All
When I was building my VW powered MKIIIC I put a motor cycle glass pack
muffler on my engine. I started with a dune buggy 4 in to one system that I
reworked a bunch to get it to fit. I couldn't see putting the big heavy
steel muffler on my airplane so I put a glass pack motorcycle muffler on
it. Later on I discovered that the glass had blow out of the muffler but
the engine wasn't any louder. So my next step was to eliminate the muffler
completely. The engine produced more power, the plane is lighter and was
again no louder.
The noise from my VW comes from the prop and engine vibrations coming
through the rubber engine mount, but that's another story. With a pusher
engine can you hear the exhaust over the prop noise? I can't hear mine in
the cockpit and my fly over noise at 60% cruise power is quieter than the
average Cessna. So do you even need or want a muffler???
Have you 912 guys ever flown without a muffler? The 2 stroke engines a
different animal and are tuned for the back pressure. Maybe the higher RPM
engines need a bit of silencing?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Yes we have plenty of welding and muffler shops here, I'm sure I can get
> anything I need made. I have an FAA/Boeing/Lockheed approved weld shop that
> does my certified airplane parts. Larry if you are stuck and you need
> something made to a drawing, I can definitely put you in the right hands.
>
> To be honest, this whole interference thing has been making me crazy
> (crazier), since I have photos of at least two good HKS installations on
> this same FS2 airframe without creating this problem. I just couldn't
> imagine everyone else having to scratch their head over this for months
> like I did.
>
> So now... since I will have to modify or change the exhaust system
> (because the one I got with the engine will not work as-is).... the
> question becomes: Where is the very best possible place to route the
> exhaust and mount the muffler on the Firestar/HKS combination?
>
> I have read Larry's postings and e-mails (thank you!) with an explanation
> of how he feels the muffler prevented enough airflow from getting to the
> cylinders when it is mounted in front of the engine. Larry also mentioned
> that it created a lot of drag, which he had to fix using an airflow baffle
> plate behind it.
>
> So perhaps the top of the wing in front of the engine is not a good place
> for the muffler on this aircraft?
>
> Has anyone mounted the muffler underneath the bottom of the fuselage, at
> the intersection of the steel cage and fuselage tube ? This would put the
> muffler a lot further away from blocking airflow to the cylinders (and keep
> the noise further away from the pilot's head), at the cost of another four
> feet of tubing weight.
>
> I have planned on using an aluminum muffler to reduce weight, because all
> of you on the Kolb list have convinced me that reducing weight is a primary
> consideration. The stock HKS cylindrical steel muffler weighs at least 12
> pounds by my estimate, and an equivalent aluminum one might be half that.
> That's a big chunk of weight that can be removed, even if the muffler will
> not last as long as steel would.
>
> What do you guys think is the best possible location for the exhaust and
> muffler, if you had the chance to start with a clean sheet of paper?
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 10/11/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" <kolb-list@matronics.com>
> Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 6:28 AM
>
> Have you checked with
> Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes that I
> have. That would have been my only option with my remote
> location. I am sure there are a few more muffler shops where
> you are.Larry
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016
> at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
> I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is
> different than mine !
>
>
> The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that
> are NOT separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a
> break, with a "Swivel joint" and springs, just 2
> inches outside of the exhaust port. These undoubtedly take
> up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple
> of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's
> "solid, no swivel/spring joint" system.
>
>
> So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible
> position (so I can get the great Kolb handling that I've
> been hearing about), I may wind up having to make up a new
> exhaust system that takes up less space, or routes the
> exhaust pipes a different direction, etc..
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
> ------------------------------ --------------
>
> On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference
> Questions
>
> To: "kolb-list@matronics.com"
> <kolb-list@matronics.com>
>
> Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM
>
>
> So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust
> line
>
> be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the
>
> aircraft handling?
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> --------
>
>
> Since I am one of the few that have an
>
> HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I
> have
>
> mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me
>
> about 3/4 of an inch clearance.
>
> As to your question about how high- I cannot tell
>
> you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell
> you
>
> that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the
>
> extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you
>
> that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give
> it
>
> full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on
> the
>
> stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high
>
> yet.
>
> I once rode in a Mark three that when full
>
> throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up
>
> pressure. It scared me!Larry
>
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
> contribution
>
> ==== ============================== =
>
>
> --
> The
> older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are
> intolerant of others.
> If you forward this email, or any part of
> it, please remove my email address before sending.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
Sorry today was town day, and that takes all day.
The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It screws
up the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not know
if this engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I would
be thinking about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the cage
and the prop having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put the
oil cooler on the back of the cage however.
You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads, if
so let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that.
Larry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
lcottrell wrote:
> Sorry today was town day, and that takes all day.
>
>
>
> The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It screws up
the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not know if this
engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I would be thinking
about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the cage and the prop
having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put the oil cooler on the
back of the cage however.
>
>
> You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads, if so
let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that.
> Larry
This particular thread has me really interested, even though I don't own an HKS.
Larry; can you post a picture or two of your HKS on the airplane? Would like
to see it.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461190#461190
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions
Richard and Bill: here is the engine from all sides. Also included are some
measurements from the cage to the Prop. It looks to me that a y'ed pipe
coming out the back and down most of the way to the boom tube would be
quite do'able. Bill If you try it out, keep me posted, I may want to take
advantage of who ever does it for you for a pair of my own. I looked around
a bit but could not find any pipe set ups that would trail the pipes down
the back.
Larry
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net>
wrote:
>
>
> This particular thread has me really interested, even though I don't own
> an HKS. Larry; can you post a picture or two of your HKS on the airplane?
> Would like to see it.
>
>
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions |
> The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It
screws up the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not
know if this engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I
would be thinking about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the
cage and the prop having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put
the oil cooler on the back of the cage however.
>
>
> You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads,
if so let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that.
> Larry
--
*The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of
others.*
*If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email
address before sending.*
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