---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/11/16: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:28 AM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell) 2. 10:09 AM - More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Bill Berle) 3. 11:59 AM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Rick Neilsen) 4. 04:39 PM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell) 5. 05:03 PM - Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Richard Pike) 6. 06:04 PM - Fw: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell) 7. 06:07 PM - Fw: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:44 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions Have you checked with Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes that I have. That would have been my only option with my remote location. I am sure there are a few more muffler shops where you are. Larry On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is different than > mine ! > > The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that are NOT > separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a break, with a "Swivel > joint" and springs, just 2 inches outside of the exhaust port. These > undoubtedly take up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple > of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's "solid, no swivel/spring > joint" system. > > So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible position (so I > can get the great Kolb handling that I've been hearing about), I may wind > up having to make up a new exhaust system that takes up less space, or > routes the exhaust pipes a different direction, etc.. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM > > > So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust line > be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the > aircraft handling? > > Bill Berle > -------- > > Since I am one of the few that have an > HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I have > mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me > about 3/4 of an inch clearance. > As to your question about how high- I cannot tell > you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell you > that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the > extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you > that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give it > full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on the > stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high > yet. > I once rode in a Mark three that when full > throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up > pressure. It scared me!Larry > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:50 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions Yes we have plenty of welding and muffler shops here, I'm sure I can get anything I need made. I have an FAA/Boeing/Lockheed approved weld shop that does my certified airplane parts. Larry if you are stuck and you need something made to a drawing, I can definitely put you in the right hands. To be honest, this whole interference thing has been making me crazy (crazier), since I have photos of at least two good HKS installations on this same FS2 airframe without creating this problem. I just couldn't imagine everyone else having to scratch their head over this for months like I did. So now... since I will have to modify or change the exhaust system (because the one I got with the engine will not work as-is).... the question becomes: Where is the very best possible place to route the exhaust and mount the muffler on the Firestar/HKS combination? I have read Larry's postings and e-mails (thank you!) with an explanation of how he feels the muffler prevented enough airflow from getting to the cylinders when it is mounted in front of the engine. Larry also mentioned that it created a lot of drag, which he had to fix using an airflow baffle plate behind it. So perhaps the top of the wing in front of the engine is not a good place for the muffler on this aircraft? Has anyone mounted the muffler underneath the bottom of the fuselage, at the intersection of the steel cage and fuselage tube ? This would put the muffler a lot further away from blocking airflow to the cylinders (and keep the noise further away from the pilot's head), at the cost of another four feet of tubing weight. I have planned on using an aluminum muffler to reduce weight, because all of you on the Kolb list have convinced me that reducing weight is a primary consideration. The stock HKS cylindrical steel muffler weighs at least 12 pounds by my estimate, and an equivalent aluminum one might be half that. That's a big chunk of weight that can be removed, even if the muffler will not last as long as steel would. What do you guys think is the best possible location for the exhaust and muffler, if you had the chance to start with a clean sheet of paper? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/11/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 6:28 AM Have you checked with Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes that I have. That would have been my only option with my remote location. I am sure there are a few more muffler shops where you are.Larry On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is different than mine ! The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that are NOT separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a break, with a "Swivel joint" and springs, just 2 inches outside of the exhaust port. These undoubtedly take up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's "solid, no swivel/spring joint" system. So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible position (so I can get the great Kolb handling that I've been hearing about), I may wind up having to make up a new exhaust system that takes up less space, or routes the exhaust pipes a different direction, etc.. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ------------------------------ -------------- On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust line be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the aircraft handling? Bill Berle -------- Since I am one of the few that have an HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I have mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me about 3/4 of an inch clearance. As to your question about how high- I cannot tell you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell you that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give it full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on the stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high yet. I once rode in a Mark three that when full throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up pressure. It scared me!Larry ==== ============================== = -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Kolb-List ==== ============================== = FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ==== ============================== = WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ==== ============================== = b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution ==== ============================== = -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:59:25 AM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions Bill/All When I was building my VW powered MKIIIC I put a motor cycle glass pack muffler on my engine. I started with a dune buggy 4 in to one system that I reworked a bunch to get it to fit. I couldn't see putting the big heavy steel muffler on my airplane so I put a glass pack motorcycle muffler on it. Later on I discovered that the glass had blow out of the muffler but the engine wasn't any louder. So my next step was to eliminate the muffler completely. The engine produced more power, the plane is lighter and was again no louder. The noise from my VW comes from the prop and engine vibrations coming through the rubber engine mount, but that's another story. With a pusher engine can you hear the exhaust over the prop noise? I can't hear mine in the cockpit and my fly over noise at 60% cruise power is quieter than the average Cessna. So do you even need or want a muffler??? Have you 912 guys ever flown without a muffler? The 2 stroke engines a different animal and are tuned for the back pressure. Maybe the higher RPM engines need a bit of silencing? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 1:09 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Yes we have plenty of welding and muffler shops here, I'm sure I can get > anything I need made. I have an FAA/Boeing/Lockheed approved weld shop that > does my certified airplane parts. Larry if you are stuck and you need > something made to a drawing, I can definitely put you in the right hands. > > To be honest, this whole interference thing has been making me crazy > (crazier), since I have photos of at least two good HKS installations on > this same FS2 airframe without creating this problem. I just couldn't > imagine everyone else having to scratch their head over this for months > like I did. > > So now... since I will have to modify or change the exhaust system > (because the one I got with the engine will not work as-is).... the > question becomes: Where is the very best possible place to route the > exhaust and mount the muffler on the Firestar/HKS combination? > > I have read Larry's postings and e-mails (thank you!) with an explanation > of how he feels the muffler prevented enough airflow from getting to the > cylinders when it is mounted in front of the engine. Larry also mentioned > that it created a lot of drag, which he had to fix using an airflow baffle > plate behind it. > > So perhaps the top of the wing in front of the engine is not a good place > for the muffler on this aircraft? > > Has anyone mounted the muffler underneath the bottom of the fuselage, at > the intersection of the steel cage and fuselage tube ? This would put the > muffler a lot further away from blocking airflow to the cylinders (and keep > the noise further away from the pilot's head), at the cost of another four > feet of tubing weight. > > I have planned on using an aluminum muffler to reduce weight, because all > of you on the Kolb list have convinced me that reducing weight is a primary > consideration. The stock HKS cylindrical steel muffler weighs at least 12 > pounds by my estimate, and an equivalent aluminum one might be half that. > That's a big chunk of weight that can be removed, even if the muffler will > not last as long as steel would. > > What do you guys think is the best possible location for the exhaust and > muffler, if you had the chance to start with a clean sheet of paper? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 10/11/16, Larry Cottrell wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > Date: Tuesday, October 11, 2016, 6:28 AM > > Have you checked with > Jerry @Green Sky? He may be able to supply the pipes that I > have. That would have been my only option with my remote > location. I am sure there are a few more muffler shops where > you are.Larry > On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 > at 12:22 AM, Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > I may have found the problem why Larry's installation is > different than mine ! > > > The hotos he was kind enough tos end show exhaust pipes that > are NOT separated just past the exhaust port. Mine have a > break, with a "Swivel joint" and springs, just 2 > inches outside of the exhaust port. These undoubtedly take > up more room, and make the exhaust pipe hang down a couple > of inches lower under the engine, than Larry's > "solid, no swivel/spring joint" system. > > > So in order to have the thrust line in the best possible > position (so I can get the great Kolb handling that I've > been hearing about), I may wind up having to make up a new > exhaust system that takes up less space, or routes the > exhaust pipes a different direction, etc.. > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > ------------------------------ -------------- > > On Mon, 10/10/16, Larry Cottrell > wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference > Questions > > To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" > > > Date: Monday, October 10, 2016, 4:48 PM > > > So the question is... how high can the propeller thrust > line > > be on a Kolb Firestar 2 without causing a change in the > > aircraft handling? > > > Bill Berle > > -------- > > > Since I am one of the few that have an > > HKS, I guess that I will have to tell you again that I > have > > mine with 2 inch risers, swing a 66 inch prop giving me > > about 3/4 of an inch clearance. > > As to your question about how high- I cannot tell > > you that as I have not gone there as of yet. I can tell > you > > that my wings will fold by turning the ailerons in the > > extended position when it is folded. I can also tell you > > that with the engine set the way that it is, when I give > it > > full throttle the plane climbs without my influence on > the > > stick. So apparently I have not raised it too high > > yet. > > I once rode in a Mark three that when full > > throttle was applied the plane dived without stick up > > pressure. It scared me!Larry > > > ==== ============================== = > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > Navigator?Kolb-List > > ==== ============================== = > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ==== ============================== = > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ==== ============================== = > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > contribution > > ==== ============================== = > > > -- > The > older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are > intolerant of others. > If you forward this email, or any part of > it, please remove my email address before sending. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:56 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: More HKS Engine Interference Questions Sorry today was town day, and that takes all day. The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It screws up the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not know if this engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I would be thinking about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the cage and the prop having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put the oil cooler on the back of the cage however. You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads, if so let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that. Larry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:48 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions From: "Richard Pike" lcottrell wrote: > Sorry today was town day, and that takes all day. > > > > The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It screws up the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not know if this engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I would be thinking about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the cage and the prop having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put the oil cooler on the back of the cage however. > > > You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads, if so let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that. > Larry This particular thread has me really interested, even though I don't own an HKS. Larry; can you post a picture or two of your HKS on the airplane? Would like to see it. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461190#461190 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:44 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions Richard and Bill: here is the engine from all sides. Also included are some measurements from the cage to the Prop. It looks to me that a y'ed pipe coming out the back and down most of the way to the boom tube would be quite do'able. Bill If you try it out, keep me posted, I may want to take advantage of who ever does it for you for a pair of my own. I looked around a bit but could not find any pipe set ups that would trail the pipes down the back. Larry On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > > This particular thread has me really interested, even though I don't own > an HKS. Larry; can you post a picture or two of your HKS on the airplane? > Would like to see it. > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:27 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: Re: More HKS Engine Interference Questions > The placement of the muffler causes more problems than it solves. It screws up the wind needed to cool the engine, and slows the plane. I do not know if this engine needs a muffler? ( back pressure etc) If it didn't I would be thinking about collecting the two pipes in the middle between the cage and the prop having it come out below the boom tube. I would still put the oil cooler on the back of the cage however. > > > You still may need to cover and funnel the wind over the cylinder heads, if so let me know because I have drawings of the cover needed for that. > Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.