Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:42 AM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Malcolm Brubaker)
2. 08:09 AM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker)
3. 02:06 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Bill Berle)
4. 03:25 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Rex Rodebush)
5. 03:38 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker)
6. 03:42 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker)
7. 04:09 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Herb)
8. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing ()
9. 04:50 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing ()
10. 05:11 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Rex Rodebush)
11. 05:21 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Herb)
12. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Charlie England)
13. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Stuart Harner)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam frame in the pivot
and lift =C2-style?=C2-Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker
Michigan Sport Pilot Repair http://michigansportpilotrepair.comLSRM-A, PPC,
WS
Great Sails - Sailmaker
for Ultralight & Light Sport
(989)513-3022=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
The sites showed some thin wall stuff...=C2- same as Kolb....058 and .051
or 052.=C2- as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6=C2- tubing exclusively...bu
t I do
not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certainly... Herb
On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, jimbaker@npacc.net wrote:
>
> Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is generally ma
rine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for our applic
ations.
>
> Jim Baker
> 405.426.5377
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:16
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>
>
> Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality
> alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063
> or something near that alloy...Herb
>
>
> On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote:
>>
>> 6061-T6
>>
>> Jim Baker
>> 405 426 5377
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:51
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>
net>
>>
>>=C2- =C2- Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor d
o I know what Kolb uses.=C2- I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few yea
rs ago, and don't recall what I paid.
>>
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Bill Sulliva
n
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>>
>>=C2- =C2- Subject: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>=C2- =C2- To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>=C2- =C2- Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12:55 PM
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Wonder what quantity has to be bought..and what alloy?
>>=C2- =C2- Cannot be 500
>>=C2- =C2- plus dollars for 20 feet!=C2- That would be a whole lot o
f
>>=C2- =C2- Lettuce !!
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- some one=C2- near by..go over and check
>>=C2- =C2- out the dumpster! :-) Herb
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/13
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Forum -
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>>=C2- =C2- MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>>=C2- =C2- List Contribution Web Site -
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt
>>=C2- =C2- Dralle, List Admin.
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democra
cies give way to tyranny."
Aristotle
"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and w
hat does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" wh
o is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5052_aluminium_alloy
If you're looking for strength and weldability, as long as you can verify the alloy
series, 5052 should work well in a structural setting.
Jim Baker
405 426 5377
-----Original Message-----
From: Malcolm Brubaker <brubakermal@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 6:42
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam frame in the pivot
and lift =C2-style?=C2-Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker
Michigan Sport Pilot Repair http://michigansportpilotrepair.comLSRM-A, PPC,
WS
Great Sails - Sailmaker
for Ultralight & Light Sport
(989)513-3022=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
The sites showed some thin wall stuff...=C2- same as Kolb....058 and .051
or 052.=C2- as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6=C2- tubing exclusively...bu
t I do
not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certainly... Herb
On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, jimbaker@npacc.net wrote:
>
> Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is generally ma
rine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for our applic
ations.
>
> Jim Baker
> 405.426.5377
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:16
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>
>
> Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality
> alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063
> or something near that alloy...Herb
>
>
> On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote:
>>
>> 6061-T6
>>
>> Jim Baker
>> 405 426 5377
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:51
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>
net>
>>
>>=C2- =C2- Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor d
o I know what Kolb uses.=C2- I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few yea
rs ago, and don't recall what I paid.
>>
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2
- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Bill Sulliva
n
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>>
>>=C2- =C2- Subject: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>=C2- =C2- To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>>=C2- =C2- Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12:55 PM
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Wonder what quantity has to be bought..and what alloy?
>>=C2- =C2- Cannot be 500
>>=C2- =C2- plus dollars for 20 feet!=C2- That would be a whole lot o
f
>>=C2- =C2- Lettuce !!
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- some one=C2- near by..go over and check
>>=C2- =C2- out the dumpster! :-) Herb
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/13
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2- Forum -
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>>=C2- =C2- MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>>=C2- =C2- List Contribution Web Site -
>>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt
>>=C2- =C2- Dralle, List Admin.
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>=C2- =C2-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democra
cies give way to tyranny."
Aristotle
"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and w
hat does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" wh
o is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...
S -
WIKI -
-
=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; f
ont-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:24px"><div i
d="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477823975397_3474"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14
77823975397_3473">SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam
frame in the pivot and lift style?</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_
ym19_1_1477823975397_3475"></div><div> </div><div class="signature"
id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477823975397_3505"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14
77823975397_3504"><font id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477823975397_3503" face=
"bookman old style, new york, times, serif">Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker <
br>Michigan Sport Pilot Repair</font> </div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-family: arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font
-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><a href="http://michigans
portpilotrepair.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><strong><font size
="3">http://michigansportpilotrepair.com</font></strong></a><var id="yu
i-ie-cursor"></var></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477823975397_3506">L
SRM-A, PPC, WS<br>Great Sails - Sailmaker <br>for Ultralight & Light Sp
ort<br>(989)513-3022</div><div><u></u> </div><div> </div><div>&nb
sp;</div><div> </div></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div
><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-
family: bookman old style, new york, times, serif; font-size: 24px;"> <div
style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Luci
da Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"><font face="Ar
ial" size="2"> On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc
.com> wrote:<br></font></div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container">-
-> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <<a href="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.c
om" ymailto="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com">Herbgh@nctc.com</a>><br><br>The s
ites showed some thin wall stuff... same as Kolb....058 and .051 <br>
or 052. as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6 tubing exclusively...bu
t I do <br>not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certai
nly... Herb<br><br><br>On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, <a href="mailto:jimbaker@n
pacc.net" ymailto="mailto:jimbaker@npacc.net">jimbaker@npacc.net</a> wrot
e:<br>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: <a href="mailto:jimbaker@n
pacc.net" ymailto="mailto:jimbaker@npacc.net">jimbaker@npacc.net</a><br>&
gt;<br>> Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is ge
nerally marine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for
our applications.<br>><br>> Jim Baker<br>> 405.426.5377<br>><br
>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: Herb <<a href="mailto:H
erbgh@nctc.com" ymailto="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com">Herbgh@nctc.com</a>><
br>> To: <a href="mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com" ymailto="mailto:ko
lb-list@matronics.com">kolb-list@matronics.com</a><br>> Sent: Sat, 29 Oc
t 2016 19:16<br>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing<br>><br
>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <<a href="mailto:Herbgh
@nctc.com" ymailto="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com">Herbgh@nctc.com</a>><br>&g
t;<br>> Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality
<br>> alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes wer
e 6063<br>> or something near that alloy...Herb<br>><br>><br>>
On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote:<br>>> --> Kolb-List messa
ge posted by: Jim Baker <<a href="mailto:jimbaker@npacc.net" ymailto
="mailto:jimbaker@npacc.net">jimbaker@npacc.net</a>><br>>><br>&g
t;> 6061-T6<br>>><br>>> Jim Baker<br>>> 405 426 5377<b
r>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: william
sullivan <<a href="mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net" ymailto="mailto
:williamtsullivan@att.net">williamtsullivan@att.net</a>><br>>> To:
<a href="mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com" ymailto="mailto:kolb-list@mat
ronics.com">kolb-list@matronics.com</a><br>>> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016
13:51<br>>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing<br>>><b
r>>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <<a href
="mailto:williamtsullivan@att.net" ymailto="mailto:williamtsullivan@att
.net">williamtsullivan@att.net</a>><br>>><br>>>
Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor do I know what
Kolb uses. I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few years ago, and do
n't recall what I paid.<br>>><br>>>
 
; &nb
sp; Bill Sullivan<br>>> -----------------
---------------------------<br>>> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb <<a href
="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com" ymailto="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com">Herbgh@nctc.
com</a>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> Subject: Kolb-List:
5 and 6 inch tubing<br>>> To: <a href="mailto:kolb-li
st@matronics.com" ymailto="mailto:kolb-list@matronics.com">kolb-list@matr
onics.com</a><br>>> Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12
:55 PM<br>>> <br>>> --> Kolb-List
message posted by:<br>>> Herb <<a href="mailto:Herb
gh@nctc.com" ymailto="mailto:Herbgh@nctc.com">Herbgh@nctc.com</a>><br>
>> <br>>> Wonder what quantity has to
be bought..and what alloy?<br>>> Cannot be 500<br>>&
gt; plus dollars for 20 feet! That would be a whole lot
of<br>>> Lettuce !!<br>>> <br>>>
; some one near by..go over and check<br>>>
; out the dumpster! :-) Herb<br>>> <br>>
> <br>>> <br>>> <br>&
gt;> <br>>> <a href="http://hastingsir
rigation.com/node/13" target="_blank">http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/
13</a><br>>> <br>>> Forum -<br>>&g
t; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -<br>>> M
ATRONICS LIST WIKI -<br>>> List Contribution Web Site -<
br>>> -
Matt<br>>> Dralle, List Admin.<br>>>
<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> &nbs
p; <br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>
<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>><br><br>-- <br>"Masculine r
epublics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give wa
y to tyranny."<br><br>Aristotle<br><br>"Daddy, tell me...why are you going
to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplor
ables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Tw
or?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Lis
> <a href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://foru
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI
--> <a href="http://wiki.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://wiki
 
tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri
================<br><br><br><br><br><br></d
iv> </div> </div> </div></div>
------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294--
</b></font></pre>
------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294--
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts as
a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the original
engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications
to back it up.
The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering
basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions
are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right here
and now.
There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable"
alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading term.
Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion
resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying
ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your
wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free
for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is not
very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum
alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have
a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing the
funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many !(#*$
funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by opening
up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck
will.
An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute
materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount of
experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make
a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms.
As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6 and
have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions
to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding,
you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority
of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have
a casting instead of a heat treated material.
You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot
substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute
2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane"
alloy.
Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052 for
6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers
here on this forum can feel free to correct me.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
Here's an idea. Call Brian at TNK and order the tubing you want. I know we all
want to save money. However, paying a little more to support TNK and get tubing
that works seems like a reasonable thing to me.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461745#461745
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
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Message 6
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
Yer wraped around the axle for no reason. The initial conversation was about alum
tubing suitable for a hangar/hangar door, not for an aircraft.
Geez.
Jim Baker
405 426 5377
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:59
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts as
a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the original
engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications
to back it up.
The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering
basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions
are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right here
and now.
There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable"
alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading term.
Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion
resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying
ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your
wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free
for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is not
very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum
alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have
a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing the
funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many !(#*$
funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by opening
up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck
will.
An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute
materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount of
experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make
a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms.
As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6 and
have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions
to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding,
you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority
of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have
a casting instead of a heat treated material.
You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot
substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute
2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane"
alloy.
Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052 for
6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers
here on this forum can feel free to correct me.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
I may have started the discussion...it is a discussion? right? Inquiring
minds want to know...
Way back in the dark recesses of my brain...I seem to recall that the
spars and boom are not 6061 T6.. but 6063...t651 ...from memory..could
be and likely am wrong...said so to the list...nothing wrong with that
...right?? Hoping someone would have the answer... I know ...call
Bryan.....:-)
Not advocating anything except good common sense... and it works
this way...I am my own business...operate to always be in the
black...and if I send 500+ dollars to anyone..when I could buy for half
or less..then my good business sense says to do it... I make charitable
contributions because I am in the black......to childrens hospitals and
the like. but not to a business..as much as I like that particular
business...In the end...a business must stand on its own profit and loss
statement...and bottom line... Right???
Herb
On 10/30/2016 05:42 PM, Jim Baker wrote:
>
> Yer wraped around the axle for no reason. The initial conversation was about
alum tubing suitable for a hangar/hangar door, not for an aircraft.
>
> Geez.
>
> Jim Baker
> 405 426 5377
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:59
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>
>
> Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts
as a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the
original engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications
to back it up.
>
> The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering
basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions
are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right
here and now.
>
> There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable"
alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading
term. Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion
resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying
ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your
wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free
for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is
not very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum
alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have
a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing
the funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many
!(#*$ funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by
opening up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck
>
> will.
>
> An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute
materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount
of experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make
a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms.
>
> As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6
and have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions
to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding,
you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority
of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have
a casting instead of a heat treated material.
>
> You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot
substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute
2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane"
alloy.
>
> Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052
for 6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers
here on this forum can feel free to correct me.
>
>
--
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies
give way to tyranny."
Aristotle
"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what
does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin
and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
Thanks for posting your comments below, Rex.
Folks, the only thing that keeps Kolb Aircraft alive is us few that still support
them. They are an extremely small company with shallow pockets. What they
have, parts to keep our aging aircraft alive, will disappear if they do not continue
to stay in business.
Support Kolb Aircraft.
Besides, you won't meet finer folks anywhere.
john h
mkIII
El Centro, California
---- Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here's an idea. Call Brian at TNK and order the tubing you want. I know we
all want to save money. However, paying a little more to support TNK and get
tubing that works seems like a reasonable thing to me.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461745#461745
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | 5 and 6 inch tubing |
...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 or something
near that alloy...Herb
Herb/Kolbers:
5 and 6 inch booms and spars are drawn for irrigation pipe. They are 6061 T-6
.058" wall.
Biggest problem for Kolb is finding tubes that do not have dents and scratches.
That tubing is not handled with kid gloves once it is manufactured. I remember
the Kolb Gang going to the factory and going through many, many tubes to find
the "good" ones.
The 6061 is probably used for circle irrigation systems because of the increased
strength required to keep the system together. The "el cheapo" non-spec'd tubing
is probably used for systems that are laid out on the ground and not mobile.
john h
mkIII
El Centro, California
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a garage door
has to do with Kolb aircraft.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461751#461751
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
I went to the barn and looked at all of my 5 inch tubes that I bought
from Kolb many years back..they had a trailer full of scratch and
dents..None had the typical rolled on alloy identification.
.Travis explained that they were perfectly good but if they sent a
spar or boom to a customer, it had to be perfect...so..I bought quite a
few of them.. Stayed away from scratches and bought those with small dents..
dollar a foot...wish I had bought more.. By the way...I have a good
set of Firefly spars...I went with single lift struts,ala firestar, on
my first Firefly...unfortunately...all the holes are drilled for the
ribs...no extra charge...:-)
6061 T6 it is...!! :-)
who would have thought...25 or so dollars a foot!! Herb
On 10/30/2016 06:50 PM, jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote:
>
>
> ...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 or something
near that alloy...Herb
>
>
> Herb/Kolbers:
>
> 5 and 6 inch booms and spars are drawn for irrigation pipe. They are 6061 T-6
.058" wall.
>
> Biggest problem for Kolb is finding tubes that do not have dents and scratches.
That tubing is not handled with kid gloves once it is manufactured. I remember
the Kolb Gang going to the factory and going through many, many tubes to
find the "good" ones.
>
> The 6061 is probably used for circle irrigation systems because of the increased
strength required to keep the system together. The "el cheapo" non-spec'd
tubing is probably used for systems that are laid out on the ground and not mobile.
>
>
> john h
> mkIII
> El Centro, California
>
>
--
"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies
give way to tyranny."
Aristotle
"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what
does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin
and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter...
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
On 10/30/2016 7:11 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote:
>
> Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a garage
door has to do with Kolb aircraft.
>
>
I don't remember what the original subject was, but I doubt it was about
garage doors. That was probably my fault. I posted a pic of the hangar
door I built using irrigation tubing; intended as a joking response to
the question about strength of irrigation tubing.
I'd never recommend using used ag products as aircraft structure. But as
John pointed out, the irrigation tubing is pretty strong. What does a 30
foot long 6" diameter tube of water weigh?
Charlie
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing |
365.7 pounds.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing
On 10/30/2016 7:11 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote:
>
> Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a
garage door has to do with Kolb aircraft.
>
>
I don't remember what the original subject was, but I doubt it was about
garage doors. That was probably my fault. I posted a pic of the hangar door
I built using irrigation tubing; intended as a joking response to the
question about strength of irrigation tubing.
I'd never recommend using used ag products as aircraft structure. But as
John pointed out, the irrigation tubing is pretty strong. What does a 30
foot long 6" diameter tube of water weigh?
Charlie
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