---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/30/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 AM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Malcolm Brubaker) 2. 08:09 AM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker) 3. 02:06 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Bill Berle) 4. 03:25 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Rex Rodebush) 5. 03:38 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker) 6. 03:42 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Jim Baker) 7. 04:09 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Herb) 8. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing () 9. 04:50 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing () 10. 05:11 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Rex Rodebush) 11. 05:21 PM - Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Herb) 12. 05:59 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Charlie England) 13. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing (Stuart Harner) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:36 AM PST US From: Malcolm Brubaker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam frame in the pivot and lift =C2-style?=C2-Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair http://michigansportpilotrepair.comLSRM-A, PPC, WS Great Sails - Sailmaker for Ultralight & Light Sport (989)513-3022=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb wrote: The sites showed some thin wall stuff...=C2- same as Kolb....058 and .051 or 052.=C2- as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6=C2- tubing exclusively...bu t I do not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certainly... Herb On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, jimbaker@npacc.net wrote: > > Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is generally ma rine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for our applic ations. > > Jim Baker > 405.426.5377 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Herb > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:16 > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing > > > Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality > alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 > or something near that alloy...Herb > > > On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote: >> >> 6061-T6 >> >> Jim Baker >> 405 426 5377 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: william sullivan >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:51 >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing >> net> >> >>=C2- =C2- Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor d o I know what Kolb uses.=C2- I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few yea rs ago, and don't recall what I paid. >> >>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Bill Sulliva n >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb wrote: >> >>=C2- =C2- Subject: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing >>=C2- =C2- To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>=C2- =C2- Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12:55 PM >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Herb >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Wonder what quantity has to be bought..and what alloy? >>=C2- =C2- Cannot be 500 >>=C2- =C2- plus dollars for 20 feet!=C2- That would be a whole lot o f >>=C2- =C2- Lettuce !! >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- =C2- some one=C2- near by..go over and check >>=C2- =C2- out the dumpster! :-) Herb >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/13 >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Forum - >>=C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >>=C2- =C2- MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >>=C2- =C2- List Contribution Web Site - >>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt >>=C2- =C2- Dralle, List Admin. >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democra cies give way to tyranny." Aristotle "Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and w hat does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" wh o is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter... S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:11 AM PST US From: Jim Baker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5052_aluminium_alloy If you're looking for strength and weldability, as long as you can verify the alloy series, 5052 should work well in a structural setting. Jim Baker 405 426 5377 -----Original Message----- From: Malcolm Brubaker Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 6:42 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing ------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam frame in the pivot and lift =C2-style?=C2-Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker Michigan Sport Pilot Repair http://michigansportpilotrepair.comLSRM-A, PPC, WS Great Sails - Sailmaker for Ultralight & Light Sport (989)513-3022=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb wrote: The sites showed some thin wall stuff...=C2- same as Kolb....058 and .051 or 052.=C2- as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6=C2- tubing exclusively...bu t I do not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certainly... Herb On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, jimbaker@npacc.net wrote: > > Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is generally ma rine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for our applic ations. > > Jim Baker > 405.426.5377 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Herb > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 19:16 > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing > > > Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality > alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 > or something near that alloy...Herb > > > On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote: >> >> 6061-T6 >> >> Jim Baker >> 405 426 5377 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: william sullivan >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:51 >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing >> net> >> >>=C2- =C2- Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor d o I know what Kolb uses.=C2- I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few yea rs ago, and don't recall what I paid. >> >>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2 - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- Bill Sulliva n >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb wrote: >> >>=C2- =C2- Subject: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing >>=C2- =C2- To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>=C2- =C2- Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12:55 PM >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Herb >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Wonder what quantity has to be bought..and what alloy? >>=C2- =C2- Cannot be 500 >>=C2- =C2- plus dollars for 20 feet!=C2- That would be a whole lot o f >>=C2- =C2- Lettuce !! >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- =C2- some one=C2- near by..go over and check >>=C2- =C2- out the dumpster! :-) Herb >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/13 >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- Forum - >>=C2- =C2- =C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >>=C2- =C2- MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >>=C2- =C2- List Contribution Web Site - >>=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt >>=C2- =C2- Dralle, List Admin. >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >>=C2- =C2- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democra cies give way to tyranny." Aristotle "Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and w hat does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" wh o is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter... S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SO a irrigation tube or3 would make For a good door beam frame in the pivot and lift  style?
 
Malcolm & Jeanne Brubaker < br>Michigan Sport Pilot Repair
L SRM-A, PPC, WS
Great Sails - Sailmaker
for Ultralight & Light Sp ort
(989)513-3022
 
 
&nb sp;
 


On Sunday, October 30, 2016 12:53 AM, Herb <Herbgh@nctc .com> wrote:


- -> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>

The s ites showed some thin wall stuff...  same as Kolb....058 and .051
or 052.  as I recall...Kolb uses 6061 T6  tubing exclusively...bu t I do
not think the spars and boom are? 6063 is not as strong...certai nly... Herb


On 10/29/2016 10:22 PM, jimbaker@npacc.net wrot e:
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: jimbaker@npacc.net
& gt;
> Pretty sure Kolbs are 6061. Center pivot irrigation stuff is ge nerally marine grade 5052-H38 in extra thick wall types. Way too heavy for our applications.
>
> Jim Baker
> 405.426.5377
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>< br>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sat, 29 Oc t 2016 19:16
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
&g t;
> Very surprised...irrigation tubing does not need to be a quality
> alloy...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes wer e 6063
> or something near that alloy...Herb
>
>
> On 10/29/2016 04:41 PM, Jim Baker wrote:
>> --> Kolb-List messa ge posted by: Jim Baker <jimbaker@npacc.net>
>>
&g t;> 6061-T6
>>
>> Jim Baker
>> 405 426 5377>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sat, 29 Oct 2016 13:51
>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: william sullivan <williamtsullivan@att.net>
>>
>>    Herb- I don't see what alloy this stuff is made from, nor do I know what Kolb uses.  I bought a new main tube from Kolb a few years ago, and do n't recall what I paid.
>>
>>                              ;                     &nb sp;         Bill Sullivan
>> ----------------- ---------------------------
>> On Sat, 10/29/16, Herb <Herbgh@nctc. com> wrote:
>>
>>    Subject: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing
>>    To: kolb-list@matr onics.com
>>    Date: Saturday, October 29, 2016, 12 :55 PM
>>   
>>    --> Kolb-List message posted by:
>>    Herb <Herbgh@nctc.com>
>>   
>>    Wonder what quantity has to be bought..and what alloy?
>>    Cannot be 500
>& gt;    plus dollars for 20 feet!  That would be a whole lot of
>>    Lettuce !!
>>   
>> ;      some one  near by..go over and check
>> ;    out the dumpster! :-) Herb
>>   
> >   
>>   
>>   
& gt;>   
>>    http://hastingsirrigation.com/node/ 13
>>   
>>    Forum -
>&g t;      - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>>    M ATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>>    List Contribution Web Site -< br>>>                  - Matt
>>    Dralle, List Admin.
>>   
>>   
>>   
>>  &nbs p;
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

--
"Masculine r epublics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give wa y to tyranny."

Aristotle

"Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplor ables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Tw or?Kolb-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Lis > http://foru               - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI --> http://wiki                       tronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contri ================





------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294-- ------=_Part_571230_631422605.1477824138294-- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:33 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts as a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the original engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications to back it up. The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right here and now. There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable" alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading term. Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is not very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing the funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many !(#*$ funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by opening up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck will. An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount of experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms. As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6 and have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding, you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have a casting instead of a heat treated material. You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute 2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane" alloy. Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052 for 6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers here on this forum can feel free to correct me. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing From: "Rex Rodebush" Here's an idea. Call Brian at TNK and order the tubing you want. I know we all want to save money. However, paying a little more to support TNK and get tubing that works seems like a reasonable thing to me. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461745#461745 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:21 PM PST US From: Jim Baker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing U2ltcGx5IHRoaXMuLi4uCgpXYXMgdGhlIHBlcnNvbiBtYWtpbmcgdGhlIGVucXVpcnkgYXNraW5n IGFib3V0IGFsdW1pbnVtIHN1aXRhYmxlIGZvciBhIG5vbi1haXJjcmFmdCBzdHJ1Y3R1cmFsIHVz ZSBvciBub3Q/IEkgZGlkbid0IHNlZSBhbnkgbWVudGlvbiBvZiBhaXJjcmFmdCBzdHJ1Y3R1cmFs IHVzZS4gVGhlcmUgd2FzIG5vIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gdGhhdCBhbnkgb3RoZXIgbWF0ZXJpYWwgZ3Jh ZGUgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWQgYXMgc3VjaC4KCkppbSBCYWtlcgo0MDUgNDI2IDUzNzcKCi0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tCkZyb206IEJpbGwgQmVybGUgPHZpY3RvcmJyYXZvQHNiY2ds b2JhbC5uZXQ+ClRvOiBrb2xiLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQpTZW50OiBTdW4sIDMwIE9jdCAy MDE2IDE2OjU5ClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBLb2xiLUxpc3Q6IDUgYW5kIDYgaW5jaCB0dWJpbmcKCi0t PiBLb2xiLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQgYnk6IEJpbGwgQmVybGUgPHZpY3RvcmJyYXZvQHNi 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ICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uCl8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1h dHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09CgoKCgo ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:54 PM PST US From: Jim Baker Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing Yer wraped around the axle for no reason. The initial conversation was about alum tubing suitable for a hangar/hangar door, not for an aircraft. Geez. Jim Baker 405 426 5377 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Berle Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:59 Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts as a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the original engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications to back it up. The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right here and now. There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable" alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading term. Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is not very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing the funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many !(#*$ funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by opening up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck will. An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount of experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms. As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6 and have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding, you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have a casting instead of a heat treated material. You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute 2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane" alloy. Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052 for 6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers here on this forum can feel free to correct me. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing From: Herb I may have started the discussion...it is a discussion? right? Inquiring minds want to know... Way back in the dark recesses of my brain...I seem to recall that the spars and boom are not 6061 T6.. but 6063...t651 ...from memory..could be and likely am wrong...said so to the list...nothing wrong with that ...right?? Hoping someone would have the answer... I know ...call Bryan.....:-) Not advocating anything except good common sense... and it works this way...I am my own business...operate to always be in the black...and if I send 500+ dollars to anyone..when I could buy for half or less..then my good business sense says to do it... I make charitable contributions because I am in the black......to childrens hospitals and the like. but not to a business..as much as I like that particular business...In the end...a business must stand on its own profit and loss statement...and bottom line... Right??? Herb On 10/30/2016 05:42 PM, Jim Baker wrote: > > Yer wraped around the axle for no reason. The initial conversation was about alum tubing suitable for a hangar/hangar door, not for an aircraft. > > Geez. > > Jim Baker > 405 426 5377 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Berle > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, 30 Oct 2016 16:59 > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing > > > Anyone who is suggesting the use of industrial, irrigation, or plumbing parts as a straight-across substitute for the materials thatw ere specified in the original engineering DAMN well better have the engineering ability and qualifications to back it up. > > The person suggesting 5052 as an equivalent material... can you provide the engineering basis or qualifications for making that statement please? If my suspicions are correct (maybe yes, maybe no), I need to nip this in the bud right here and now. > > There is no need for any welding on the Kolb spars or fuselage tube, so a "weldable" alloy has no advantage whatsoever. "Durable" is also a very misleading term. Pure aluminium (1100 series) is "durable" because it is highly corrosion resistant. It also has very very little strength, stiffness, and load-carrying ability. So if you build an airplane out of any old "durable" materials, your wing spar could break, but the broken piece would be nice and shiny and rust-free for the funeral. 7075 alloy (develkoped for the B-29 bomber in WW2) is not very resistant to corrosion, but it is the strongest of the normal aluminum alloys. So you have to take better care of it corrosion wise, but you will have a wing spar that can take a LOT more G loads before breaking, and causing the funeral. I don't know about any of you guys, but I've been to way too many !(#*$ funerals in aviation,and if I can prevent one more needless funeral by opening up my great big mouth here then I sure as heck > > will. > > An average non-engineer homebuilder (like me) CANNOT make decisions to substitute materials in the majority of cases. There are some of us with some amount of experience, who may have have learned anough from the real engineers to make a few basic decisions conservatively. But not for wing spars and fuselage tailbooms. > > As a GENERAL rule in aviation, you can USUALLY substitute 2024-T3 for 6061-T6 and have higher strength and equal stiffness. But there are even plenty of exceptions to this, because you cannot weld 2024-T3 very well. So if you are welding, you are usually stuck with the 6061. When you weld it you lose the majority of the stiffness (resistance to bending under load), and you essentially have a casting instead of a heat treated material. > > You CANNOT substitute 6061 for 2024, you lose strength. I also believe you cannot substitute 5052 for 6061, because you lose strength. You cannot substitute 2024 for 7075, because 7075 is quite a bit stronger/stiffer than even 2024 "airplane" alloy. > > Again, I am not a trained aircraft structures engineer. But substituting 5052 for 6061 or 6063 alloy SEEMS to be wrong to me. Any real, trained strctural engineers here on this forum can feel free to correct me. > > -- "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny." Aristotle "Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:38 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing Thanks for posting your comments below, Rex. Folks, the only thing that keeps Kolb Aircraft alive is us few that still support them. They are an extremely small company with shallow pockets. What they have, parts to keep our aging aircraft alive, will disappear if they do not continue to stay in business. Support Kolb Aircraft. Besides, you won't meet finer folks anywhere. john h mkIII El Centro, California ---- Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Here's an idea. Call Brian at TNK and order the tubing you want. I know we all want to save money. However, paying a little more to support TNK and get tubing that works seems like a reasonable thing to me. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461745#461745 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:50:59 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing ...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 or something near that alloy...Herb Herb/Kolbers: 5 and 6 inch booms and spars are drawn for irrigation pipe. They are 6061 T-6 .058" wall. Biggest problem for Kolb is finding tubes that do not have dents and scratches. That tubing is not handled with kid gloves once it is manufactured. I remember the Kolb Gang going to the factory and going through many, many tubes to find the "good" ones. The 6061 is probably used for circle irrigation systems because of the increased strength required to keep the system together. The "el cheapo" non-spec'd tubing is probably used for systems that are laid out on the ground and not mobile. john h mkIII El Centro, California ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:34 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing From: "Rex Rodebush" Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a garage door has to do with Kolb aircraft. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461751#461751 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:50 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 5 and 6 inch tubing From: Herb I went to the barn and looked at all of my 5 inch tubes that I bought from Kolb many years back..they had a trailer full of scratch and dents..None had the typical rolled on alloy identification. .Travis explained that they were perfectly good but if they sent a spar or boom to a customer, it had to be perfect...so..I bought quite a few of them.. Stayed away from scratches and bought those with small dents.. dollar a foot...wish I had bought more.. By the way...I have a good set of Firefly spars...I went with single lift struts,ala firestar, on my first Firefly...unfortunately...all the holes are drilled for the ribs...no extra charge...:-) 6061 T6 it is...!! :-) who would have thought...25 or so dollars a foot!! Herb On 10/30/2016 06:50 PM, jhauck@elmore.rr.com wrote: > > > ...I am pretty sure I heard that the spars and boom tubes were 6063 or something near that alloy...Herb > > > Herb/Kolbers: > > 5 and 6 inch booms and spars are drawn for irrigation pipe. They are 6061 T-6 .058" wall. > > Biggest problem for Kolb is finding tubes that do not have dents and scratches. That tubing is not handled with kid gloves once it is manufactured. I remember the Kolb Gang going to the factory and going through many, many tubes to find the "good" ones. > > The 6061 is probably used for circle irrigation systems because of the increased strength required to keep the system together. The "el cheapo" non-spec'd tubing is probably used for systems that are laid out on the ground and not mobile. > > > john h > mkIII > El Centro, California > > -- "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny." Aristotle "Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter... ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing From: Charlie England On 10/30/2016 7:11 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a garage door has to do with Kolb aircraft. > > I don't remember what the original subject was, but I doubt it was about garage doors. That was probably my fault. I posted a pic of the hangar door I built using irrigation tubing; intended as a joking response to the question about strength of irrigation tubing. I'd never recommend using used ag products as aircraft structure. But as John pointed out, the irrigation tubing is pretty strong. What does a 30 foot long 6" diameter tube of water weigh? Charlie ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:37 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing 365.7 pounds. -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 7:59 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 5 and 6 inch tubing On 10/30/2016 7:11 PM, Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Didn't pick up that the tubing was for a garage door. Not sure what a garage door has to do with Kolb aircraft. > > I don't remember what the original subject was, but I doubt it was about garage doors. That was probably my fault. I posted a pic of the hangar door I built using irrigation tubing; intended as a joking response to the question about strength of irrigation tubing. I'd never recommend using used ag products as aircraft structure. But as John pointed out, the irrigation tubing is pretty strong. What does a 30 foot long 6" diameter tube of water weigh? 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