---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/24/16: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:53 AM - Wing Tip Spads (Rick Neilsen) 2. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/21/16 (Richard Girard) 3. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/21/16 (Herb) 4. 09:22 AM - Re: Wing Tip Spads (Bill Berle) 5. 10:30 AM - Re: Wing Tip Spads (Stuart Harner) 6. 12:53 PM - 2016 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 7. 07:08 PM - Re: Wing Tip Spads (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:22 AM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads Things have been slow lately so... Some time ago there was a discussion about putting a flat surface on the end of the aileron balance rods. The intent was to lighten the control pressure on the stick. The elevators are very light but the ailerons are heavy, so wouldn't it be nice to have them more balanced. I never liked the idea of changing the mechanical advantage at the expense of less defection. There could be times on takeoff or landing that turbulence might require all you can get out of your ailerons. It seems like someone tried balance rod fin and it didn't work. I don't know the details or how much they experimented with it. I think I saw a Kolb with this on their plane at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh in the last year and wonder if anyone knows anything about it. I have wanted to do something to better balance the control forces on my plane. Years ago I welded up a pair of balance weights with with a fin on it (spad). I never installed it for fear that it would be too powerful and snatch the aileron to full defection or cause some flutter. I have also pondered how or what angle to set the fin to align the fin with the airflow off the wing tip. Any thoughts or information out there. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:57 AM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/21/16 Sorry, There's no way to register your plane as an Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (ELSA). That option ended January 31st, 2008 when the grandfathering period ended. In order to register as an ELSA since it must be an exact copy of a qualifying Special Light Sport Aircraft (SLSA). See FAR 21.191(i)1-3. Rick Girard Merry Christmas Everyone How did Peace on Earth Goodwill toward Men become LOCK YOUR CAR TAKE YOUR KEYS HIDE YOUR ITEMS? On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 8:08 PM, japowell wrote: > > Both bill of sales says miscellaneous non-airworthy experimental aircraft > parts. Doesn't mention engine, just parts. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464268#464268 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 12/21/16 From: Herb Talking to a DAR about this subject...since I just bought the "for training only" Challenger II...He named two ways to get it legal...The only one I recall was some sort of Exhibition method...Saying that there was not nearly as much restriction on planes with that registration mode .. as times past...almost none....Feds quite lax or regs have changed? Herb On 12/24/2016 10:59 AM, Richard Girard wrote: > Sorry, There's no way to register your plane as an Experimental Light > Sport Aircraft (ELSA). That option ended January 31st, 2008 when the > grandfathering period ended. In order to register as an ELSA since it > must be an exact copy of a qualifying Special Light Sport Aircraft > (SLSA). See FAR 21.191(i)1-3. > > Rick Girard > Merry Christmas Everyone > How did Peace on Earth Goodwill toward Men become LOCK YOUR CAR TAKE > YOUR KEYS HIDE YOUR ITEMS? > > On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 8:08 PM, japowell > wrote: > > > > > Both bill of sales says miscellaneous non-airworthy experimental > aircraft parts. Doesn't mention engine, just parts. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464268#464268 > > > > =================================== > br> fts!) > r> > com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com > w.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > p.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > e.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mypilotstore.com > " rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.mrrace.com > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > =================================== > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > =================================== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > =================================== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > =================================== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > > -- > > > Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. Groucho > Marx > > -- "Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyranny." Aristotle "Daddy, tell me...why are you going to the pig farm for a reeducation and what does it mean "A basket of deplorables"? "Are you unreedemable"? And" who is Stalin and Mao Zedong"? Mark Twain's GGgranddaughter... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:48 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads You can put on aileron spades, many aerobatic aircraft use them of course. But for both safety and function, they would have to be in the center of the aileron instead of out at the tip, and then this would possibly cause problems when folding the wings. There is of course the flutter question on top of any other problem. A properly trained engineer (a flutter-trained dynamics guy, not just an aero engineering degree) wouuld have to look at it and determine whether the wall thickness of the leading edge tube would have enough stiffness. Not "strength", but stiffness... to prevent the whole thing from starting to swing back and forth and become "excited" into a flutter mode. The aileron structure of the Kolb was ALREADY prone to flutter, which is why the balance rods became a mandatory upgrade/option. Puting the spades out at the end may or may not be safe to do, but there are only a handful of people who are qualified to make that determination. A "servo tab" is another way to reduce the control forces, and it also comes with its own concerns and problems. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/24/16, Rick Neilsen wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Saturday, December 24, 2016, 8:53 AM Things have been slow lately so... Some time ago there was a discussion about putting a flat surface on the end of the aileron balance rods. The intent was to lighten the control pressure on the stick. The elevators are very light but the ailerons are heavy, so wouldn't it be nice to have them more balanced. I never liked the idea of changing the mechanical advantage at the expense of less defection. There could be times on takeoff or landing that turbulence might require allyou can get out of your ailerons. It seems like someone tried balance rod fin and it didn't work. I don't know the details or how much they experimented with it. I think I saw a Kolb with this on their plane at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh in the last year and wonder if anyone knows anything about it. I have wanted to do something to better balance the control forces on my plane. Years ago I welded up a pair of balance weights with with a fin on it (spad). I never installed it for fear that it would be too powerful and snatch the aileron to full defection or cause some flutter. I have also pondered how or what angle to set the fin to align the fin with the airflow off the wing tip. Any thoughts or information out there. Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:30:00 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads Interesting discussion. How about using multiple spades. Smaller of course and distributed along the aileron. Perhaps centered between the hinges. If a bracket could be formed that would fit snuggly against the aileron tube and be big enough you could just pop rivet it on. For experimental purposes I would use screws to attach the spade to the bracket allowing for easy changes of size and shape. Could be permanently riveted once the experimenting was done. I am thinking multiple but smaller spades will transmit lighter forces to the aileron tube and the rivets used to attach them but the cumulative effect would be applied to the entire aileron. If the spade is in front of the hinge and aileron behind wouldn't they help reduce both flutter and control forces? Of course this would be at the expense of drag. Would spades add to adverse yaw or help control it? How fast is a Firefly? Not fast enough to worry about these things. :) Merry Christmas everyone! Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 11:23 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads You can put on aileron spades, many aerobatic aircraft use them of course. But for both safety and function, they would have to be in the center of the aileron instead of out at the tip, and then this would possibly cause problems when folding the wings. There is of course the flutter question on top of any other problem. A properly trained engineer (a flutter-trained dynamics guy, not just an aero engineering degree) wouuld have to look at it and determine whether the wall thickness of the leading edge tube would have enough stiffness. Not "strength", but stiffness... to prevent the whole thing from starting to swing back and forth and become "excited" into a flutter mode. The aileron structure of the Kolb was ALREADY prone to flutter, which is why the balance rods became a mandatory upgrade/option. Puting the spades out at the end may or may not be safe to do, but there are only a handful of people who are qualified to make that determination. A "servo tab" is another way to reduce the control forces, and it also comes with its own concerns and problems. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 12/24/16, Rick Neilsen wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Wing Tip Spads To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Saturday, December 24, 2016, 8:53 AM Things have been slow lately so... Some time ago there was a discussion about putting a flat surface on the end of the aileron balance rods. The intent was to lighten the control pressure on the stick. The elevators are very light but the ailerons are heavy, so wouldn't it be nice to have them more balanced. I never liked the idea of changing the mechanical advantage at the expense of less defection. There could be times on takeoff or landing that turbulence might require all you can get out of your ailerons. It seems like someone tried balance rod fin and it didn't work. I don't know the details or how much they experimented with it. I think I saw a Kolb with this on their plane at Sun N Fun or Oshkosh in the last year and wonder if anyone knows anything about it. I have wanted to do something to better balance the control forces on my plane. Years ago I welded up a pair of balance weights with with a fin on it (spad). I never installed it for fear that it would be too powerful and snatch the aileron to full defection or cause some flutter. I have also pondered how or what angle to set the fin to align the fin with the airflow off the wing tip. Any thoughts or information out there. Rick NeilsenRedrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Kolb-List: 2016 List of Contributors Dear Listers, The 2016 Matronics Email List and Forum Fund Raiser officially ended a couple of weeks ago and it's time that I published this year's List of Contributors. It is the people on this list that directly make these Email Lists and Forums possible! Their generous Contributions keep the servers and Internet connection up and running! You can still show your support this year and pick up a great gift at the same time. The Contribution Web Site is fast, easy, and secure: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, by dropping a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I also want to thank Andy, Bob, George, and Jon for their generous support through the supply of many great gifts this year!! These guys have some excellent products and I encourage you to visit their respective web sites: Andy Gold - The Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com Bob Nucklolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com George Race - Race Consulting - http://www.mrrace.com Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com And finally, I'm proud to present The 2016 Fund Raiser List of Contributors: http://www.matronics.com/loc/2016.html Thank you again to everyone that made a Contribution this year!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List & Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:30 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads From: "Richard Pike" Rick, if you ever get anywhere near NE Tennessee, I hope you come and visit, I would love for you to fly my MKIII, I would consider it an honor. I reduced the aileron throw just a little, but the reduction in effort was remarkable. I think you would find the control authority to be non-compromised. Right now I am in the process of building a Firefly out of a wrecked original Firestar, and have built the aileron bellcrank so that we can find the "sweet spot" for rigging the ailerons. You might consider trying something similar, it is one of those things where if you try it and don't like it, you can put it back to where it was. Merry Christmas to all my friends on the Kolb List! -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464380#464380 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050573_medium_120.jpg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.