---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/26/16: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:01 PM - Re: Merry Christmas from here to you!hope you got something to add to your planes. I got a new altimeter. (Larry Cottrell) 2. 02:08 PM - Re: Merry Christmas from here to you!hope you got something to add to your planes. I got a new altimeter. (B Young) 3. 03:48 PM - Re: Wing Tip Spads (Richard Pike) 4. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads (John Hauck) 5. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads (Larry Cottrell) 6. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads (Larry Cottrell) 7. 05:11 PM - aileron spades (jimswan) 8. 05:30 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads (John Hauck) 9. 06:04 PM - Re: Re: Wing Tip Spads (Rick Neilsen) 10. 06:36 PM - Spades. Check it out. This is not the first go on the subject (B Young) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:50 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Merry Christmas from here to you!hope you got something to add to your planes. I got a new altimeter. You make a proper pair. :-) Apparently you both had fun! Good for you. Larry and Karen On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 10:33 AM, B Young wrote: > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:59 PM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Merry Christmas from here to you!hope you got something to add to your planes. I got a new altimeter. More fun than the kids! Thought people could put the name to a face. Boyd On Dec 26, 2016 2:04 PM, "Larry Cottrell" wrote: You make a proper pair. :-) Apparently you both had fun! Good for you. Larry and Karen On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 10:33 AM, B Young wrote: > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:53 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads From: "Richard Pike" Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your cake and eat it too? And maybe we can? One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure? Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the wing and curling around the tip. What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?") I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920 Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes even better. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Would you consider yourself to be a good person? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464410#464410 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:25 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads Reduce the cord, reduce the load. Ever notice how much aileron deflection is required to fly a Kolb? Very little. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:53 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads Richard, I think that I can safely speak for the rest of the guy's and that is if you want to do the work, we will be glad to take advantage of it. :-) As I mentioned earlier, I have cleaned up as many of the drag factors on my plane that I can, so it flies a bit faster than Homer probably intended. To counteract the extra force required to use the ailerons, I have gotten in the habit of using my right knee to help with the turns. This causes a cramp in my right butt cheek about 40 minutes into the flights. Under the right circumstances, I could probably do without the cramp. Thanks, Larry On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about > it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons > via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 > years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your > cake and eat it too? And maybe we can? > > One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you > apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the > tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron > tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. > Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I > notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, > so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two > jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some > small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube > throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure? > > Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron > counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades > on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad > idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the > wing and curling around the tip. > > What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away > from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the > spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the > aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put > it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?") > > I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good > thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly > what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920 > > Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt > might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes > even better. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Would you consider yourself to be a good person? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464410#464410 > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:18 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads I personally am too lazy to build new ailerons. You should know that by now. :-)\ Larry On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 5:37 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > Reduce the cord, reduce the load. > > Ever notice how much aileron deflection is required to fly a Kolb? Very > little. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:08 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: aileron spades From: "jimswan" The Firestar ll that I purchased several years ago had aileron spades that could be detached from the aileron and that was the case when I looked at the plane....the owner showed them to me ..they were I thought quite big and I thought to myself that it made no sense to put such things on the ailerons and put all that pressure on the hinges...so I left them thereat that time I am not sure I knew what aileron spades were.....the seller was the 2nd owner of the plane.....later on I talked with the builder of the plane and he said the spades worked excellent and that I should have taken them.....after speaking with him I came away thinking he might know what he was talking about...Note: the brackets are still on the ailerons and I think they are in the middle.... -------- Jim Swan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464414#464414 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:53 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads Hopefully, you won't have to build new ailerons for any reason. Me either. My ailerons work just fine. Don't have the roll rate of an Extra 300, but it isn't an Extra 300. It is a big old MKIII that hauls whatever I can cram in it, from here to wherever I point the nose, and back. If I had wanted a snappy airplane I would have built a Pitts. Happy New Year everyone! T-shirt and shorts at hauck's holler. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 6:53 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads I personally am too lazy to build new ailerons. You should know that by now. :-)\ Larry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:18 PM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Wing Tip Spads Richard/All That's a great idea. Just so happens I saw somewhere (Airventure?) where someone did something like that on their Kolb. Anyone out there know anything about it? Did it work at all, cause problems????? Brian are you listening? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > Been thinking about this for a couple of days and the more I think about > it the more it sounds like a good idea. IMO my solution to heavy ailerons > via reducing throw/leverage works quite well, (or it has for the last 15 > years) but you guys certainly do have a point - what if you can have your > cake and eat it too? And maybe we can? > > One of the considerations on any Kolb is the aileron twisting force; you > apply torque to the inboard end, and by the time that torque gets to the > tip, you have a lot of pressure accumulating, and typically, the aileron > tube will twist enough that you are not getting full deflection at the tip. > Typically spades are placed at the mid point of the aileron, but then I > notice that most aerobatic aircraft have the aileron pushrod at midpoint, > so what they are doing is modifying a major piece of hardware to do two > jobs, and that's cool, but that's not our situation. So what if we put some > small spades at the tip? To counteract the twist of the aileron tube > throughout it's length? And reduce stick pressure? > > Since most of the (maybe all?) of the heavier Kolbs require aileron > counterbalances, I wondered if it might be possible to install small spades > on the front end of the counterbalance rod. I was told that this is a bad > idea due to the vortex's / wash coming out from under the bottom of the > wing and curling around the tip. > > What if you made stand off's to position the spade a couple inches away > from the wing tip? Maybe a gap of 3 or 4 inches between the tip and the > spade? (I am like; "Dude: we already have this sturdy rod coming out of the > aileron spar, and aligned with the wing chord; is there any way we can put > it to good use other than just around carrying dead weight?") > > I have been trying to learn from what others have done - here is a good > thread, worth the read it you are interested in spades, but not exactly > what I am proposing: http://www.biplaneforum.com/showthread.php?t=3920 > > Since we all have Experimental aircraft, experimenting w/o getting hurt > might be fun & worth the trouble by making these great little airplanes > even better. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Would you consider yourself to be a good person? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWcDXT6pH7A > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=464410#464410 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:02 PM PST US From: B Young Subject: Kolb-List: Spades. Check it out. This is not the first go on the subject http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=45270&highlight=spades ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.