Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:47 AM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (B Young)
2. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (John Hauck)
3. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (Charlie England)
4. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (Bill Berle)
5. 09:54 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (John Hauck)
6. 10:10 AM - Re: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 (John Hauck)
7. 10:29 AM - Primer plunger? (Richard Pike)
8. 10:55 AM - Re: Primer plunger? (Charlie England)
9. 11:00 AM - Re: Primer plunger? (George Alexander)
10. 11:25 AM - Re: Primer plunger? (Stuart Harner)
11. 11:51 AM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (B Young)
12. 02:58 PM - Re: Primer plunger? (George Alexander)
13. 03:38 PM - Re: Primer plunger? (Richard Pike)
14. 04:12 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (John Hauck)
15. 04:49 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (Charlie England)
16. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (John Hauck)
17. 05:31 PM - Re: Primer plunger? (Richard Pike)
18. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (Stuart Harner)
19. 05:54 PM - Re: Primer plunger? (Richard Pike)
20. 06:05 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (Charlie England)
21. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Primer plunger? (B Young)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
The kits that leave Kolb are not airplanes,. They are just kits. The
numbers stamped on at the factory are factory control numbers. My guess is
liability control numbers,. When I bought a kit, I had to sign a waiver,.
I'll bet my waiver and their stamped number are attached in a file.
After you receive the kit,. Put 500 or so hours in it, you turn all the
bits and pieces into an airplane,. Except for part 103,. In which case
you turn all the bits into a vehicle. I regress,. Because you are the
manufacture of the airplane, you choose what serial number you want on
it. Kolb's control number may or may not, your choice, be included.
Boyd young
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
Boyd/Kolbers:
I've had three kits from 1984 to 1991. The US and FS had no serial or
control numbers on the airframe or paperwork. The MKIII had a serial
number in the paperwork, but no ID on the airframe. I went ahead and
used M3-011 which was on the paperwork to register and ID my completed
airplane.
If I had wanted to, as you described below, I could have used any number
I wanted. Thought about AF1, but I was an Army aviator and couldn't
live with AF ID. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 9:47 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17
The kits that leave Kolb are not airplanes,. They are just kits. The
numbers stamped on at the factory are factory control numbers. My guess
is liability control numbers,. When I bought a kit, I had to sign a
waiver,. I'll bet my waiver and their stamped number are attached in a
file.
After you receive the kit,. Put 500 or so hours in it, you turn all the
bits and pieces into an airplane,. Except for part 103,. In which case
you turn all the bits into a vehicle. I regress,. Because you are the
manufacture of the airplane, you choose what serial number you want on
it. Kolb's control number may or may not, your choice, be
included.
Boyd young
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
AAF-1?
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-becomes-first-president-to-travel-by-airplane-on-u-s-official-business
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 10:16 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Boyd/Kolbers:
>
>
> I've had three kits from 1984 to 1991. The US and FS had no serial or
> control numbers on the airframe or paperwork. The MKIII had a serial
> number in the paperwork, but no ID on the airframe. I went ahead and used
> M3-011 which was on the paperwork to register and ID my completed airplane.
>
>
> If I had wanted to, as you described below, I could have used any number I
> wanted. Thought about AF1, but I was an Army aviator and couldn't live
> with AF ID. ;-)
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-
> server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *B Young
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 18, 2017 9:47 AM
> *To:* Kolb List
> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17
>
>
> The kits that leave Kolb are not airplanes,. They are just kits. The
> numbers stamped on at the factory are factory control numbers. My guess is
> liability control numbers,. When I bought a kit, I had to sign a waiver,.
> I'll bet my waiver and their stamped number are attached in a file.
>
> After you receive the kit,. Put 500 or so hours in it, you turn all the
> bits and pieces into an airplane,. Except for part 103,. In which case
> you turn all the bits into a vehicle. I regress,. Because you are the
> manufacture of the airplane, you choose what serial number you want on
> it. Kolb's control number may or may not, your choice, be included.
>
> Boyd young
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
Regardless of what anyone else is or is not allowed to do, I think Army aviators
have earned extra privilege to use any number they want, at any time, for any
reason :)
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/18/17, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, January 18, 2017, 8:16 AM
#yiv5670064864
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#yiv5670064864 Boyd/Kolbers: I've had three kits from 1984
to 1991. The US and FS had no serial or control numbers on
the airframe or paperwork. The MKIII had a serial number
in the paperwork, but no ID on the airframe. I went ahead
and used M3-011 which was on the paperwork to register and
ID my completed airplane. If I had wanted to, as you
described below, I could have used any number I wanted.
Thought about AF1, but I was an Army aviator and
couldn't live with AF ID. ;-) john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From:
owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf
Of B Young
Sent: Wednesday,
January 18, 2017 9:47 AM
To: Kolb
List
Subject: Kolb-List: Re:
Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 The kits that
leave Kolb are not airplanes,. They are just kits.
The numbers stamped on at the factory are factory control
numbers. My guess is liability control numbers,. When I
bought a kit, I had to sign a waiver,. I'll bet my
waiver and their stamped number are attached in a
file. After you receive the kit,. Put 500 or
so hours in it, you turn all the bits and pieces into an
airplane,. Except for part 103,. In which case you turn
all the bits into a vehicle. I regress,. Because you are
the manufacture of the airplane, you choose what serial
number you want on it. Kolb's control number
may or may not, your choice, be included.Boyd
young
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
Always thought of the US Army Air Corps all the way through WWII until
it became a separate service, USAF in 1947. Now I've learned the US
Army Air Force was established 20 June 1941.
Well...Miss P'fer is M3-011. She's a Kolb and doesn't relate to much
more than what she was designed to do, and that is to make one think,
build, fly to adventure, and enjoy. I'll stick to my grass roots.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17
AAF-1?
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-becomes-first-president-to
-travel-by-airplane-on-u-s-official-business
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 10:16 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
wrote:
Boyd/Kolbers:
I've had three kits from 1984 to 1991. The US and FS had no serial or
control numbers on the airframe or paperwork. The MKIII had a serial
number in the paperwork, but no ID on the airframe. I went ahead and
used M3-011 which was on the paperwork to register and ID my completed
airplane.
If I had wanted to, as you described below, I could have used any number
I wanted. Thought about AF1, but I was an Army aviator and couldn't
live with AF ID. ;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 9:47 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17
The kits that leave Kolb are not airplanes,. They are just kits. The
numbers stamped on at the factory are factory control numbers. My guess
is liability control numbers,. When I bought a kit, I had to sign a
waiver,. I'll bet my waiver and their stamped number are attached in a
file.
After you receive the kit,. Put 500 or so hours in it, you turn all the
bits and pieces into an airplane,. Except for part 103,. In which case
you turn all the bits into a vehicle. I regress,. Because you are the
manufacture of the airplane, you choose what serial number you want on
it. Kolb's control number may or may not, your choice, be
included.
Boyd young
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 01/17/17 |
I'll have to agree with that. We aren't proud either, especially those of us that
flew in VN.
Helicopters got me interested in ultralights after I retired from the Army, and
especially Kolbs. After I got my US built and flown I had found something very,
very close to helicopters in a much cheaper, safer package. I still enjoy
those capabilities after 33 years.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Regardless of what anyone else is or is not allowed to do, I think Army aviators
have earned extra privilege to use any number they want, at any time, for any
reason :)
Bill Berle
Message 7
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Was planning to add this primer to the FSII, specifically this item in the photo
- it is new old stock. Tested it and while it sucks fuel into the intake side,
when you push the plunger in, it also squirts it back out the same line, unless
you do it quick and hard, in which case it squirts it out both lines.
I am thinking it is no good, but never having used one, what do I know? Is that
the way it is supposed to work?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God; "Thy
will be done."
And those to whom God says ; "OK then; have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465199#465199
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050623_medium_111.jpg
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
On 1/18/2017 12:29 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Was planning to add this primer to the FSII, specifically this item in the photo
- it is new old stock. Tested it and while it sucks fuel into the intake side,
when you push the plunger in, it also squirts it back out the same line,
unless you do it quick and hard, in which case it squirts it out both lines.
> I am thinking it is no good, but never having used one, what do I know? Is that
the way it is supposed to work?
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
I've never used that model, but they're just piston pumps, with inlet &
outlet check valves. Sounds like the inlet check valve is stuck open.
Can you disassemble to check it?
Charlie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Richard Pike wrote:
>
> . S N I P >
> I am thinking it is no good, but never having used one, what do I know? Is that
the way it is supposed to work?
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/primerplung.php?clickkey=69864
Richard
Definitely not the way it is supposed to work. One side in... the other out.
These are notorious for going bad, generally from drying out due to lack of use.
However, I still use them to fill the bowls instead of the bulb pump.
If this one has been sitting for a while, trying to get it to work will soak the
insides with fuel. Letting it sit for a day or two may lube the internal parts
enough to get it to work.
When I get a replacement, I always make sure I have a spare on hand.
Worth what you paid for it... your experience may vary.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465202#465202
Message 10
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That looks pretty much like the one on my Firefly.
Concur with a stuck check valve.
Always check the simple and easy stuff first. Are you are the fuel supply is
connected to the proper fitting? Might be worth reversing the hoses at the
primer just to see what happens.
If you can't get it apart perhaps soaking in your favorite gasoline additive
(Sea Foam, Marvel Mystery Oil, etc.) might free it up. 100LL makes a pretty
good solvent for fuel system stuff.
If this is a used primer assy. there is a good chance that the check valve
is gummed up with varnish and it may take something more like Toluene or MEK
to break it free. If all the internal parts are metal it should cause no
harm. All bets off for seals and plastic parts though, so use at your own
risk. ;)
If new, perhaps a visit with the vendor will get it replaced.
Let us know what you find out.
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 12:29 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Primer plunger?
--> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Was planning to add this primer to the FSII, specifically this item in the
photo - it is new old stock. Tested it and while it sucks fuel into the
intake side, when you push the plunger in, it also squirts it back out the
same line, unless you do it quick and hard, in which case it squirts it out
both lines.
I am thinking it is no good, but never having used one, what do I know? Is
that the way it is supposed to work?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God;
"Thy will be done." And those to whom God says ; "OK then;
have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465199#465199
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1050623_medium_111.jpg
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Never found a need for a primer on my 912. Pull the throttle all the way
back,. Pull the enrichener on,. Crank 3 or 4 blades, let it rest 5 sec.
Then crank it again. Fires right up.
Boyd young
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
George Alexander wrote:
>
> Richard Pike wrote:
> >
> > . S N I P >
> > I am thinking it is no good, but never having used one, what do I know? Is
that the way it is supposed to work?
> > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/primerplung.php?clickkey=69864
>
>
> Richard
> Definitely not the way it is supposed to work. One side in... the other out.
These are notorious for going bad, generally from drying out due to lack of
use. (IGNORE THAT FILLING THE BOWLS remark. Primer don't do that.)
>
> If this one has been sitting for a while, trying to get it to work will soak
the insides with fuel. Letting it sit for a day or two may lube the internal
parts enough to get it to work.
> When I get a replacement, I always make sure I have a spare on hand.
> Worth what you paid for it... your experience may vary.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503 N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465208#465208
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Like I said, this primer/plunger is brand new, never been used, sitting on the
shelf for ... hmmm... probably since my MKIII was running a 532...
OK, since it may not be worth a flip anyway, will attempt to open this primer/plunger
up using Large Mechanical Devices and see what the insides look like. Earlier
today I dumped some Marvel Mystery Oil down the intake side and it didn't
do any good, nothing changed.
In an attempt to loosen the check valve (if any) I took it and beat it against
the side of the wooden picnic table. No change, but the wife did ask me if we
had any ducks in the back yard. Not helpful.
The only reason I am fooling with it is because the FSII with a 582 is driving
us crazy - it belongs to my buddy, who has the hangar next to me, and it is drawing
the fuel out through the top of the tanks, with the fuel pickup weighted,
and laying in the bottom of the tanks. Same as we did with our Hummers & Drifters
years ago. No Big Deal.
After the two lines come out of the top of the 2 tanks, they join, then go downhill
to the primer squeeze bulb (new) then further downhill to the filter, then
the gascolator (to sump out any water) and then to the Facet pump. And then
uphill to the Mikuni pulse pump next to the engine, and then to the 2 carburetors.
Sounds simple, right? Yeah, bet me and lose!
Drag the airplane out of the hangar, tanks are almost full, turn on the Facet pump,
squeeze the bulb several times, it gets as hard as a rock, you can hear the
Facet load up, just as they always change sound when the float bowl gets full
and the float needle cuts off, because the floats are full. Sounds ready.
Now you turn on the mags, hit the starter, and grind it over ad infoonity - nothing
happens.
Grab the spray can of primer/starter and shoot a dose into the air filter, ....
and it starts.
If you pull a float bowl off during this fiasco, it is dry. In spite of our best
efforts, we cannot get any fuel up into the float bowls when the engine is not
running.
But once you get the engine to semi- sorta - primer spray - run, it sucks the fuel
right on up and then functions flawlessly for the next week. But let it sit
for a month? HAH!
I am not willing to fool with this thing endlessly, I have already spent hours
redoing the fuel lines and connections, and it changes nothing. If I can rig a
primer to shoot some gas into the carbs and get it to simulate running, so that
then it will take over and behave normally, and everyone will be happy - good.
So that is why I am trying to get this primer system to work. Or am I missing something?
All suggestions will be pondered.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God; "Thy
will be done."
And those to whom God says ; "OK then; have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465209#465209
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Richard/Kolbers:
I would never fly an aircraft that was not operating normally.
Trying to get around a stubborn engine may not be a good solution.
Should be able to pump the float bowls full, pull primer all the way on,
throttle closed, hit starter and fire right up. If not, find out why and
fix it before committing to flight. Ain't worth the risk of losing an
engine and getting hurt.
Based on your airstrip, wouldn't want to get caught short.
Concerned friend.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:38 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Primer plunger?
--> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Like I said, this primer/plunger is brand new, never been used, sitting on
the shelf for ... hmmm... probably since my MKIII was running a 532...
OK, since it may not be worth a flip anyway, will attempt to open this
primer/plunger up using Large Mechanical Devices and see what the insides
look like. Earlier today I dumped some Marvel Mystery Oil down the intake
side and it didn't do any good, nothing changed.
In an attempt to loosen the check valve (if any) I took it and beat it
against the side of the wooden picnic table. No change, but the wife did ask
me if we had any ducks in the back yard. Not helpful.
The only reason I am fooling with it is because the FSII with a 582 is
driving us crazy - it belongs to my buddy, who has the hangar next to me,
and it is drawing the fuel out through the top of the tanks, with the fuel
pickup weighted, and laying in the bottom of the tanks. Same as we did with
our Hummers & Drifters years ago. No Big Deal.
After the two lines come out of the top of the 2 tanks, they join, then go
downhill to the primer squeeze bulb (new) then further downhill to the
filter, then the gascolator (to sump out any water) and then to the Facet
pump. And then uphill to the Mikuni pulse pump next to the engine, and then
to the 2 carburetors.
Sounds simple, right? Yeah, bet me and lose!
Drag the airplane out of the hangar, tanks are almost full, turn on the
Facet pump, squeeze the bulb several times, it gets as hard as a rock, you
can hear the Facet load up, just as they always change sound when the float
bowl gets full and the float needle cuts off, because the floats are full.
Sounds ready.
Now you turn on the mags, hit the starter, and grind it over ad infoonity -
nothing happens.
Grab the spray can of primer/starter and shoot a dose into the air filter,
.... and it starts.
If you pull a float bowl off during this fiasco, it is dry. In spite of our
best efforts, we cannot get any fuel up into the float bowls when the engine
is not running.
But once you get the engine to semi- sorta - primer spray - run, it sucks
the fuel right on up and then functions flawlessly for the next week. But
let it sit for a month? HAH!
I am not willing to fool with this thing endlessly, I have already spent
hours redoing the fuel lines and connections, and it changes nothing. If I
can rig a primer to shoot some gas into the carbs and get it to simulate
running, so that then it will take over and behave normally, and everyone
will be happy - good.
So that is why I am trying to get this primer system to work. Or am I
missing something? All suggestions will be pondered.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God;
"Thy will be done." And those to whom God says ; "OK then;
have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465209#465209
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
On 1/18/2017 5:37 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Like I said, this primer/plunger is brand new, never been used, sitting on the
shelf for ... hmmm... probably since my MKIII was running a 532...
>
> OK, since it may not be worth a flip anyway, will attempt to open this primer/plunger
up using Large Mechanical Devices and see what the insides look like.
Earlier today I dumped some Marvel Mystery Oil down the intake side and it didn't
do any good, nothing changed.
>
> In an attempt to loosen the check valve (if any) I took it and beat it against
the side of the wooden picnic table. No change, but the wife did ask me if we
had any ducks in the back yard. Not helpful.
>
> The only reason I am fooling with it is because the FSII with a 582 is driving
us crazy - it belongs to my buddy, who has the hangar next to me, and it is
drawing the fuel out through the top of the tanks, with the fuel pickup weighted,
and laying in the bottom of the tanks. Same as we did with our Hummers & Drifters
years ago. No Big Deal.
>
> After the two lines come out of the top of the 2 tanks, they join, then go downhill
to the primer squeeze bulb (new) then further downhill to the filter, then
the gascolator (to sump out any water) and then to the Facet pump. And then
uphill to the Mikuni pulse pump next to the engine, and then to the 2 carburetors.
>
> Sounds simple, right? Yeah, bet me and lose!
>
> Drag the airplane out of the hangar, tanks are almost full, turn on the Facet
pump, squeeze the bulb several times, it gets as hard as a rock, you can hear
the Facet load up, just as they always change sound when the float bowl gets
full and the float needle cuts off, because the floats are full. Sounds ready.
>
> Now you turn on the mags, hit the starter, and grind it over ad infoonity - nothing
happens.
>
> Grab the spray can of primer/starter and shoot a dose into the air filter, ....
and it starts.
>
> If you pull a float bowl off during this fiasco, it is dry. In spite of our best
efforts, we cannot get any fuel up into the float bowls when the engine is
not running.
>
> But once you get the engine to semi- sorta - primer spray - run, it sucks the
fuel right on up and then functions flawlessly for the next week. But let it
sit for a month? HAH!
>
> I am not willing to fool with this thing endlessly, I have already spent hours
redoing the fuel lines and connections, and it changes nothing. If I can rig
a primer to shoot some gas into the carbs and get it to simulate running, so
that then it will take over and behave normally, and everyone will be happy -
good.
>
> So that is why I am trying to get this primer system to work. Or am I missing
something? All suggestions will be pondered.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
This is coming from a 4stroke background, so season as desired.
If carb float bowls aren't filling and you're confident that the bulb is
functioning normally, then it sounds like either the check valve in the
pulse pump is sticking (is that likely?), or both carb float valves are
sticking (again, likely?) Either way, once the motor starts shaking, the
vibration is almost certainly freeing up whatever is sticking, which
would explain it running after the 'artificial' prime.
For troubleshooting, if it were my 4 stroke engine, I'd 1st plumb around
the pulse pump and run the facet, then see if you get normal startup. (I
spent several different lives troubleshooting various systems, and if
you do it for money, you do the easy first). If no, don't use your
primer can. Pull the float bowls (which we can assume will still be
dry), and try the Facet again. Fair chance that the action of removing
the bowls will jar the float valves loose, but if it doesn't, then
you'll know for sure that your problem is there.
I'd have to agree with John; flying it like that does sound a bit
spooky. What if whatever is sticking decides that the vibration isn't
enough to keep it freed up?
Charlie
There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those that understand binary
and those that don't.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
After reading this again and Charlie's suggestions, pull the fuel lines at
the carbs, turn on the Facet, and see if fuel getting that far. Guess you
have probably done that.
Change one thing at a time until the monster appears.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Primer plunger?
On 1/18/2017 5:37 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
> --> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> Like I said, this primer/plunger is brand new, never been used, sitting on
the shelf for ... hmmm... probably since my MKIII was running a 532...
>
> OK, since it may not be worth a flip anyway, will attempt to open this
primer/plunger up using Large Mechanical Devices and see what the insides
look like. Earlier today I dumped some Marvel Mystery Oil down the intake
side and it didn't do any good, nothing changed.
>
> In an attempt to loosen the check valve (if any) I took it and beat it
against the side of the wooden picnic table. No change, but the wife did ask
me if we had any ducks in the back yard. Not helpful.
>
> The only reason I am fooling with it is because the FSII with a 582 is
driving us crazy - it belongs to my buddy, who has the hangar next to me,
and it is drawing the fuel out through the top of the tanks, with the fuel
pickup weighted, and laying in the bottom of the tanks. Same as we did with
our Hummers & Drifters years ago. No Big Deal.
>
> After the two lines come out of the top of the 2 tanks, they join, then go
downhill to the primer squeeze bulb (new) then further downhill to the
filter, then the gascolator (to sump out any water) and then to the Facet
pump. And then uphill to the Mikuni pulse pump next to the engine, and then
to the 2 carburetors.
>
> Sounds simple, right? Yeah, bet me and lose!
>
> Drag the airplane out of the hangar, tanks are almost full, turn on the
Facet pump, squeeze the bulb several times, it gets as hard as a rock, you
can hear the Facet load up, just as they always change sound when the float
bowl gets full and the float needle cuts off, because the floats are full.
Sounds ready.
>
> Now you turn on the mags, hit the starter, and grind it over ad infoonity
- nothing happens.
>
> Grab the spray can of primer/starter and shoot a dose into the air filter,
.... and it starts.
>
> If you pull a float bowl off during this fiasco, it is dry. In spite of
our best efforts, we cannot get any fuel up into the float bowls when the
engine is not running.
>
> But once you get the engine to semi- sorta - primer spray - run, it sucks
the fuel right on up and then functions flawlessly for the next week. But
let it sit for a month? HAH!
>
> I am not willing to fool with this thing endlessly, I have already spent
hours redoing the fuel lines and connections, and it changes nothing. If I
can rig a primer to shoot some gas into the carbs and get it to simulate
running, so that then it will take over and behave normally, and everyone
will be happy - good.
>
> So that is why I am trying to get this primer system to work. Or am I
missing something? All suggestions will be pondered.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
This is coming from a 4stroke background, so season as desired.
If carb float bowls aren't filling and you're confident that the bulb is
functioning normally, then it sounds like either the check valve in the
pulse pump is sticking (is that likely?), or both carb float valves are
sticking (again, likely?) Either way, once the motor starts shaking, the
vibration is almost certainly freeing up whatever is sticking, which would
explain it running after the 'artificial' prime.
For troubleshooting, if it were my 4 stroke engine, I'd 1st plumb around the
pulse pump and run the facet, then see if you get normal startup. (I spent
several different lives troubleshooting various systems, and if you do it
for money, you do the easy first). If no, don't use your primer can. Pull
the float bowls (which we can assume will still be dry), and try the Facet
again. Fair chance that the action of removing the bowls will jar the float
valves loose, but if it doesn't, then you'll know for sure that your problem
is there.
I'd have to agree with John; flying it like that does sound a bit spooky.
What if whatever is sticking decides that the vibration isn't enough to keep
it freed up?
Charlie
There are 10 kinds of people in this world: those that understand binary and
those that don't.
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Thanks John & Charlie.
After it starts, Ed usually lets it sit at a fast idle for around 5 minutes to
let it slowly warm up to fully warm, and then no matter where we go for the rest
of the day or how many times it is restarted, it behaves itself normally for
the rest of the day.
It is only after it sits for a month that we have to jump through these hoops.
And since Ed is still working & gainfully employed, he some times doesn't get
to fly for a month or so.
If I understand correctly, you are saying it is acceptable to run a bypass around
the Mikuni pulse pump and straight to the carbs. So - now we have a fuel line
coming up from below the tanks (where the Facet electric pump lives) and as
it gets to the Mikuni pulse pump, I split the line and then join it again upstream
of the Mikuni pulse pump. And then T it off to each of the 2 carbs.
Now both the carbs are being fed by the Facet prior to start up - and then both
the Mikuni and the Facet after startup? (Unless the float needles are sticking
in the float needle seats prior to startup, and then nothing gets fed) (I will
check this tomorrow by tapping on the floats while the Facet is running and
seeing if anything changes/the float bowls fill up)
Assuming that bypassing the Mikuni and letting the Facet apply pressure directly
to the float needle assembly's, - which then respond properly - and that this
resolves the problem - then the problem would be that until the Mikuni starts
to pump because the engine is starting to run, that when the engine is not running
then the Mikuni is not letting fuel flow freely through it. Correct?
Which then begs the question - is that normal for a Mikuni? Should a Mikuni allow
fuel to flow through it when there is pressure on the inlet side of the pump,
but no pulses being received through the pulse port? I am thinking that a normal
Mikuni ought to allow the fuel to flow through it. Comments?
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God; "Thy
will be done."
And those to whom God says ; "OK then; have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465218#465218
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Richard,
Are you able to see the fuel through the lines?
Serenity is basically the same setup, minus the Facet pump and the sump.
When I use the squeeze bulb I can watch the fuel flow up through the Mikuni
pulse pump and filter then go to the carb. If I am gentle and careful I can
usually tell when the floats shut off the flow and the bowl is full.
Just a guess here based on your description, but it sounds like the Facet
isn't generating enough pressure to push the fuel through the Mikuni and
fuel flow is stopped there. I can't say if this is the fault of the Mikuni
or the Facet.
A couple of things to try: Bypass the pumps one at a time and see if you can
isolate the symptom. If you use clear hose it my help figure it out. You
wouldn't have to fly, just drain the lines and bowls and see what happens.
The symptom sounds like vapor lock even thought that is not it.
Oh, one more thought. Pull a hose from one of the carbs and see if you can
get gas to come out with just the Facet or the squeeze bulb.
Once the engine is running, how does it perform if you turn off the Facet
pump?
More troubleshooting would probably involve splicing in a pressure gauge in
various places to see that is going on.
For what it is worth, I like using the squeeze bulb to get gas up to the
bowl then a couple of squirts from the primer (cold engine only) usually
gets the 447 to fire off on the first pull of the rope.
Hope this helps,
Stuart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:38 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Primer plunger?
--> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Like I said, this primer/plunger is brand new, never been used, sitting on
the shelf for ... hmmm... probably since my MKIII was running a 532...
OK, since it may not be worth a flip anyway, will attempt to open this
primer/plunger up using Large Mechanical Devices and see what the insides
look like. Earlier today I dumped some Marvel Mystery Oil down the intake
side and it didn't do any good, nothing changed.
In an attempt to loosen the check valve (if any) I took it and beat it
against the side of the wooden picnic table. No change, but the wife did ask
me if we had any ducks in the back yard. Not helpful.
The only reason I am fooling with it is because the FSII with a 582 is
driving us crazy - it belongs to my buddy, who has the hangar next to me,
and it is drawing the fuel out through the top of the tanks, with the fuel
pickup weighted, and laying in the bottom of the tanks. Same as we did with
our Hummers & Drifters years ago. No Big Deal.
After the two lines come out of the top of the 2 tanks, they join, then go
downhill to the primer squeeze bulb (new) then further downhill to the
filter, then the gascolator (to sump out any water) and then to the Facet
pump. And then uphill to the Mikuni pulse pump next to the engine, and then
to the 2 carburetors.
Sounds simple, right? Yeah, bet me and lose!
Drag the airplane out of the hangar, tanks are almost full, turn on the
Facet pump, squeeze the bulb several times, it gets as hard as a rock, you
can hear the Facet load up, just as they always change sound when the float
bowl gets full and the float needle cuts off, because the floats are full.
Sounds ready.
Now you turn on the mags, hit the starter, and grind it over ad infoonity -
nothing happens.
Grab the spray can of primer/starter and shoot a dose into the air filter,
.... and it starts.
If you pull a float bowl off during this fiasco, it is dry. In spite of our
best efforts, we cannot get any fuel up into the float bowls when the engine
is not running.
But once you get the engine to semi- sorta - primer spray - run, it sucks
the fuel right on up and then functions flawlessly for the next week. But
let it sit for a month? HAH!
I am not willing to fool with this thing endlessly, I have already spent
hours redoing the fuel lines and connections, and it changes nothing. If I
can rig a primer to shoot some gas into the carbs and get it to simulate
running, so that then it will take over and behave normally, and everyone
will be happy - good.
So that is why I am trying to get this primer system to work. Or am I
missing something? All suggestions will be pondered.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God;
"Thy will be done." And those to whom God says ; "OK then;
have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465209#465209
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
Good stuff Stuart, thanks.
Currently using NAPA black fuel injection fuel line, but can pull it off to do
some testing, and that is what we will do tomorrow. Weather is supposed to be
good, so we will disconnect and re-plumb to see what works and what doesn't before
we ever actually fire it up.
My bud who is helping me with the Firefly build is coming over to help, and that
is good. The older I get, the less I am impressed with how good I am at sorting
this kind of stuff out.
Will post tomorrow night and let you guys know what we found. Thanks a lot.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
There are only two kinds of people in the world. Those who say to God; "Thy
will be done."
And those to whom God says ; "OK then; have it your way."
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465221#465221
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
On 1/18/2017 7:31 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> Thanks John & Charlie.
> After it starts, Ed usually lets it sit at a fast idle for around 5 minutes to
let it slowly warm up to fully warm, and then no matter where we go for the
rest of the day or how many times it is restarted, it behaves itself normally
for the rest of the day.
>
> It is only after it sits for a month that we have to jump through these hoops.
And since Ed is still working & gainfully employed, he some times doesn't get
to fly for a month or so.
>
> If I understand correctly, you are saying it is acceptable to run a bypass around
the Mikuni pulse pump and straight to the carbs. So - now we have a fuel
line coming up from below the tanks (where the Facet electric pump lives) and
as it gets to the Mikuni pulse pump, I split the line and then join it again
upstream of the Mikuni pulse pump. And then T it off to each of the 2 carbs.
>
> Now both the carbs are being fed by the Facet prior to start up - and then both
the Mikuni and the Facet after startup? (Unless the float needles are sticking
in the float needle seats prior to startup, and then nothing gets fed) (I
will check this tomorrow by tapping on the floats while the Facet is running and
seeing if anything changes/the float bowls fill up)
>
> Assuming that bypassing the Mikuni and letting the Facet apply pressure directly
to the float needle assembly's, - which then respond properly - and that this
resolves the problem - then the problem would be that until the Mikuni starts
to pump because the engine is starting to run, that when the engine is not
running then the Mikuni is not letting fuel flow freely through it. Correct?
> Which then begs the question - is that normal for a Mikuni? Should a Mikuni allow
fuel to flow through it when there is pressure on the inlet side of the pump,
but no pulses being received through the pulse port? I am thinking that a
normal Mikuni ought to allow the fuel to flow through it. Comments?
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
I should have bolded the statement 'for troubleshooting'. :-) I don't
know Rotax 2 strokes at all, except in a generic 'almost all systems
will work like this' kind of way. I'd never tell you to fly something
that's a major mod without knowing from experience that it's safe. But
*for troubleshooting*, bypassing the pulse pump will tell you if the
pulse pump is blocking the flow instead of passing it properly. Actually
flying the engine with only the Facet (pulse pump bypassed) *sounds*
safe enough *to me*, since the Facet is presumably there to back up a
pulse pump failure, and there are a lot of homebuilts with bigger
engines flying with only a pair of Facets for fuel delivery. But I don't
know Rotax 2strokes, and I don't know their carbs, at least on a 1st
hand basis.
I can't imagine it being normal behavior for the pulse pump to block
flow until it's getting pulses from the crankcase, but I don't *know* that.
On easiest 1st troubleshooting: John's probably correct; it's likely
easier to just pull a fuel line off a carb than to splice around the
pulse pump. But you're looking at the plane; pick what's easiest 1st &
do it. Just do as John reminded, and do one thing at a time.
Back to (continuing?) safety: Just because the problem hasn't shown up
while flying so far, doesn't mean it won't in the future. Whatever is
blocking fuel flow is obviously defective, and it's a defect that isn't
like a dead battery on a Lycoming, where it doesn't participate in
engine operation after the engine starts. If the blockage ever becomes
permanent, the engine will stop, and you can't know if/when that will
happen.
Charlie
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Primer plunger? |
The mikuni pump should be 2 check valves with a chamber between them.
One side of the chamber is a diafram The pulse line with a negative
pulse, pulls on a diafram increasing the volume of the chamber pulling
fuel from the tank, followed by a positive pulse, pushing the fuel from the
chamber to the carbs. The 2 check valves should easily allow fuel to flow
without the engine running.
If the check valve membrane is starting to deteriorate due to age or
incompatibility to the fuel,. It may become sticky. When allowed to dry
out in a month's time it can stick to the valve seat not allowing fuel flow
till it is forced off the seat. Seemingly to work correctly till it dries
out again.
The float bowl needle valves can also become sticky. Giving the same
symptoms.
To check for sticking valves in the mikuni . At a time when it is hard to
start. remove a fuel line from the carb and check for fuel flow by
squeezing the ball or turning on the faucet. If there is flow check
needle valves. If nothing pull the fuel line to the inlet of the mikuni
. If you have flow check or rebuild the mikuni. If no flow check or
replace the squeeze ball and or faucet pump.
Boyd
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