---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/31/17: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:49 AM - VG's (John Hauck) 2. 11:21 AM - Re: VG's (B Young) 3. 01:58 PM - vg's (Larry Cottrell) 4. 02:27 PM - Re: vg's (John Hauck) 5. 02:40 PM - Sun and Fun 2017 (John Hauck) 6. 03:05 PM - Re: vg's and related landing gear (Bill Berle) 7. 03:34 PM - Re: vg's and related landing gear (John Hauck) 8. 04:46 PM - Re: Sun and Fun 2017 (David Kulp) 9. 09:53 PM - Re: VG's (Richard Girard) 10. 10:43 PM - Re: VG's (Larry Cottrell) 11. 11:32 PM - Fw: VG's (Larry Cottrell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:37 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: VG's Hi Folks: After 25 years, Miss P'fer, my MKIII, has VG's. I installed the VGs per John Gilpin's instructions, tips at 7%, 4.5 inches from the leading edge. Instead of installing the first 15 VGs from the outboard rib at 60mm and the rest inboard at 90mm spacing, I installed all of them at 60mm. The reason I did this is because they fit nicely in the valleys between the ribs and false ribs. They definitely lowered my stall speed and make landings a bit softer when I'm not on my game. I got a chance to do a little testing before the wind came up this morning. I'll learn more about the VG's as I fly. Haven't put them on the horizontal stabilizers. Right now, I don't see a need for them there. Maybe later. Ailerons seem to have a little more authority at slower speeds. Seem to feel sharper near the stall. If I can decipher my notes I'll give you all some numbers. Stalls were performed between 1000 and 3000 feet ASL. OAT was 60F. Aircraft loaded lightly. 10 gal fuel on board and 176 lb pilot. Numbers on the left are w/o VGs. On the right with VGs. Power off stall: Clean: 39 mph/33 to 34 mph Flaps, 20 deg: 32 mph/30 mph 40 deg: 30 mph/28 mph Biggest improvement was clean, power off. Stall reduced 5 to 6 mph. A little bit of difference with flaps, about 2 mph. Now when I get right to the edge of the stall I get a vibration in the prop, engine at idle, with a tiny shudder. I did not have this before VGs. BTW: Empty weight of my MKIII is 630 lbs. I didn't do any engine off stalls today. I'll check them out and see if there is a difference between dead stick and idling prop. Might have lost a little top end and cruise. Can't verify that at this time. I'll have to get some more time on the VGs to determine that. So far, I'm happy with the Stoll Speed VGs from John Gilpin, down under. I believe they will make my airplane a little safer. That never hurts. The wind kicked up before I had a chance to check out stall in ground effect on landing. I intentionally landed a little high, several times, but the VGs kept the MKIII from making that sharp break normally associated with landing a couple feet on the ground. That is a great improvement. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:57 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's Your numbers are very close to mine. With differences in Asi I think they are preforming good. The big difference in the vgs on the horizontal comes with 2 people on board at near grose weight. Boyd On Mar 31, 2017 12:11 PM, "John Hauck" wrote: > <<...>> > > Hi Folks: > > After 25 years, Miss P'fer, my MKIII, has VG's. > > I installed the VGs per John Gilpin's instructions, tips at 7%, 4.5 > inches from the leading edge. Instead of installing the first 15 VGs from > the outboard rib at 60mm and the rest inboard at 90mm spacing, I > installed all of them at 60mm. The reason I did this is because they fit > nicely in the valleys between the ribs and false ribs. > > They definitely lowered my stall speed and make landings a bit softer when > I'm not on my game. I got a chance to do a little testing before the > wind came up this morning. I'll learn more about the VG's as I fly. > Haven't put them on the horizontal stabilizers. Right now, I don't see a > need for them there. Maybe later. Ailerons seem to have a little more > authority at slower speeds. Seem to feel sharper near the stall. > > If I can decipher my notes I'll give you all some numbers. > > Stalls were performed between 1000 and 3000 feet ASL. OAT was 60F. > > Aircraft loaded lightly. 10 gal fuel on board and 176 lb pilot. > > Numbers on the left are w/o VGs. On the right with VGs. > > Power off stall: > > Clean: 39 mph/33 to 34 mph > > Flaps, 20 deg: 32 mph/30 mph > > 40 deg: 30 mph/28 mph > > Biggest improvement was clean, power off. Stall reduced 5 to 6 mph. A > little bit of difference with flaps, about 2 mph. > > Now when I get right to the edge of the stall I get a vibration in the > prop, engine at idle, with a tiny shudder. I did not have this before > VGs. > > BTW: Empty weight of my MKIII is 630 lbs. > > I didn't do any engine off stalls today. I'll check them out and see if > there is a difference between dead stick and idling prop. > > Might have lost a little top end and cruise. Can't verify that at this > time. I'll have to get some more time on the VGs to determine that. > > So far, I'm happy with the Stoll Speed VGs from John Gilpin, down under. > I believe they will make my airplane a little safer. That never hurts. > The wind kicked up before I had a chance to check out stall in ground > effect on landing. I intentionally landed a little high, several times, but > the VGs kept the MKIII from making that sharp break normally associated > with landing a couple feet on the ground. That is a great improvement. > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:33 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Kolb-List: vg's I have to admit that I am quite proud of you. Whether you believe it or not, the ones on the elevator do help t keep the tail flying and will also improve the landings. As I mentioned earlier, without them the tail feathers stall before the wing. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:27:07 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's Larry C/Kolbers: Thanks for the comment. For the moment, my tail is not stalling. ;-) However, I do have enough VGs to do the tail, plus I am thinking about doing the same thing to both entrance doors and maybe a few on the windshield. Just aft of the doors is dead air which can be seen when flying in the rain. Lots of dead air. Also, the area where the rear of the windshield meets the bottom of the center section. Have to figure out how to configure the VGs on the windshield to get that air to split and move around the dead space. Right now I am packing my gear to head to Lakeland. Plan on departing Gantt International Airport Tuesday morning, 4 April. Monday, my original departure date, is forecasting thunderstorms all day, plus the wind is to be strong out of the SE. Tuesday it turns around out of the W with lots of sunshine. Probably need to check calibration of my tachometer. Haven't done that in a while. They are easy to adjust with a tiny screw driver and an RC prop tach. I think the one I have had for years is a Busy Bee. Got it out of an RC catalog. This morning I was turning 5600 rpm WOT. 5400 would be better. Still gives me good climb and a little better cruise. However, 5600 at sea level is propped just right for flying out West. Since I plan to head West in September, I think I'll leave it along. Going back to horizontal stabilizer VGs for a moment, configured the way I am now, the tail wheel touches down (notice I didn't say hits) long before the mains, and Miss P'fer sits at a nice nose high stance. I could make the tail wheel hit even sooner and the nose higher, but don't know that I need to be doing that. However, the VGs on the wings may help soften/reduce the impact on the mains with a high nose, tail wheel first landing. Something to play around with. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 3:56 PM Subject: Kolb-List: vg's I have to admit that I am quite proud of you. Whether you believe it or not, the ones on the elevator do help t keep the tail flying and will also improve the landings. As I mentioned earlier, without them the tail feathers stall before the wing. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:31 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: Kolb-List: Sun and Fun 2017 Got gear stacked in the living room ready for departure. Bag full of MREs and energy bars. Last night I checked out my most important piece of equipment, my pack stove. Without it I don't get coffee, I use Folgers Coffee Bags (like tea bags). When I take Mountain House Freeze Dried meals, I need two cups of boiling water to reconstitute them. Also topped off the fuel bottle. I have 1 liter and 1.5 liter fuel bottles to carry my naphtha (Coleman Fuel). For the one week trip to Lakeland I can get by with the smaller 1 liter bottle. Set up the tent in the front yard this afternoon. Learned that long time ago. Finding an unserviceable tent after a long day, when you're ready to go to bed, ain't much fun. If you don't use your tent but once or twice a year, it is a good exercise to familiarize yourself with erection procedure now (don't laugh) rather than try to relearn with an audience at Sun and Fun. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:15 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's and related landing gear John H it's great to hear a positive review of the VG's from a very highly experienced Kolb pilot. It validates all the "theory" and all of the "it should work" about VG's. Your comments and experiences will give me even more reason to try the VG's with confidence. Speaking of three point landings and hitting the tail... I have finally got my Kolb Slingshot gear legs slid into the gear socket tubes, and I'm waiting to verify wheel alignment and drill the bolt holes this Saturday hopefully. The fuselage is up on sawhorses, tail on the ground, to get this all mocked up and visualized before mounting the legs. With the long Slingshot legs, and the Desser 21 inch tires I plan to use, the angle of attack in three point attitude looks like it will be about 15 degrees or even a little more. Even higher ground angle than the Slingshot, because the Firestar has the wings mounted at a much higher angle (Angle of Incidence for you trained aero-scientists). It's a big increase over the stock Kolb ground attitude. John H was correct in a comment he made about this many months previously... I'm actually going to have to carry some sort of ladder or stool to climb into the cockpit ! I'm looking into a short "rope ladder" that is tied to the steel frame and stows under the seat, I should be able to make something that weighs under a pound. The VG's should help the Firestar fly at this high angle on takeoff and landing, which will allow me to shorten the takeoff and landing roll despite my aircraft and pilot weight which is heavier than average. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 3/31/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, March 31, 2017, 2:26 PM #yiv2429368301 #yiv2429368301 -- _filtered #yiv2429368301 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} #yiv2429368301 #yiv2429368301 p.yiv2429368301MsoNormal, #yiv2429368301 li.yiv2429368301MsoNormal, #yiv2429368301 div.yiv2429368301MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv2429368301 a:link, #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2429368301 a:visited, #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv2429368301 .yiv2429368301MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv2429368301 div.yiv2429368301WordSection1 {} #yiv2429368301 Larry C/Kolbers: Thanks for the comment. For the moment, my tail is not stalling. ;-) However, I do have enough VGs to do the tail, plus I am thinking about doing the same thing to both entrance doors and maybe a few on the windshield. Just aft of the doors is dead air which can be seen when flying in the rain. Lots of dead air. Also, the area where the rear of the windshield meets the bottom of the center section. Have to figure out how to configure the VGs on the windshield to get that air to split and move around the dead space. Right now I am packing my gear to head to Lakeland. Plan on departing Gantt International Airport Tuesday morning, 4 April. Monday, my original departure date, is forecasting thunderstorms all day, plus the wind is to be strong out of the SE. Tuesday it turns around out of the W with lots of sunshine. Probably need to check calibration of my tachometer. Haven't done that in a while. They are easy to adjust with a tiny screw driver and an RC prop tach. I think the one I have had for years is a Busy Bee. Got it out of an RC catalog. This morning I was turning 5600 rpm WOT. 5400 would be better. Still gives me good climb and a little better cruise. However, 5600 at sea level is propped just right for flying out West. Since I plan to head West in September, I think I'll leave it along. Going back to horizontal stabilizer VGs for a moment, configured the way I am now, the tail wheel touches down (notice I didn't say hits) long before the mains, and Miss P'fer sits at a nice nose high stance. I could make the tail wheel hit even sooner and the nose higher, but don't know that I need to be doing that. However, the VGs on the wings may help soften/reduce the impact on the mains with a high nose, tail wheel first landing. Something to play around with. john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 3:56 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: vg's I have to admit that I am quite proud of you. Whether you believe it or not, the ones on the elevator do help t keep the tail flying and will also improve the landings. As I mentioned earlier, without them the tail feathers stall before the wing. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:23 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's and related landing gear To get into the aircraft, face away from the entrance door, step on the main gear tire, scoot your ass over the longeron and into the seat. ;-) Don't really need a ladder. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 5:03 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's and related landing gear John H it's great to hear a positive review of the VG's from a very highly experienced Kolb pilot. It validates all the "theory" and all of the "it should work" about VG's. Your comments and experiences will give me even more reason to try the VG's with confidence. Speaking of three point landings and hitting the tail... I have finally got my Kolb Slingshot gear legs slid into the gear socket tubes, and I'm waiting to verify wheel alignment and drill the bolt holes this Saturday hopefully. The fuselage is up on sawhorses, tail on the ground, to get this all mocked up and visualized before mounting the legs. With the long Slingshot legs, and the Desser 21 inch tires I plan to use, the angle of attack in three point attitude looks like it will be about 15 degrees or even a little more. Even higher ground angle than the Slingshot, because the Firestar has the wings mounted at a much higher angle (Angle of Incidence for you trained aero-scientists). It's a big increase over the stock Kolb ground attitude. John H was correct in a comment he made about this many months previously... I'm actually going to have to carry some sort of ladder or stool to climb into the cockpit ! I'm looking into a short "rope ladder" that is tied to the steel frame and stows under the seat, I should be able to make something that weighs under a pound. The VG's should help the Firestar fly at this high angle on takeoff and landing, which will allow me to shorten the takeoff and landing roll despite my aircraft and pilot weight which is heavier than average. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 3/31/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: vg's To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, March 31, 2017, 2:26 PM #yiv2429368301 #yiv2429368301 -- _filtered #yiv2429368301 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {panose-1:3 15 7 2 3 3 2 2 2 4;} #yiv2429368301 #yiv2429368301 p.yiv2429368301MsoNormal, #yiv2429368301 li.yiv2429368301MsoNormal, #yiv2429368301 div.yiv2429368301MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;} #yiv2429368301 a:link, #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2429368301 a:visited, #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2429368301 span.yiv2429368301EmailStyle17 {color:#1F497D;} #yiv2429368301 .yiv2429368301MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv2429368301 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv2429368301 div.yiv2429368301WordSection1 {} #yiv2429368301 Larry C/Kolbers: Thanks for the comment. For the moment, my tail is not stalling. ;-) However, I do have enough VGs to do the tail, plus I am thinking about doing the same thing to both entrance doors and maybe a few on the windshield. Just aft of the doors is dead air which can be seen when flying in the rain. Lots of dead air. Also, the area where the rear of the windshield meets the bottom of the center section. Have to figure out how to configure the VGs on the windshield to get that air to split and move around the dead space. Right now I am packing my gear to head to Lakeland. Plan on departing Gantt International Airport Tuesday morning, 4 April. Monday, my original departure date, is forecasting thunderstorms all day, plus the wind is to be strong out of the SE. Tuesday it turns around out of the W with lots of sunshine. Probably need to check calibration of my tachometer. Haven't done that in a while. They are easy to adjust with a tiny screw driver and an RC prop tach. I think the one I have had for years is a Busy Bee. Got it out of an RC catalog. This morning I was turning 5600 rpm WOT. 5400 would be better. Still gives me good climb and a little better cruise. However, 5600 at sea level is propped just right for flying out West. Since I plan to head West in September, I think I'll leave it along. Going back to horizontal stabilizer VGs for a moment, configured the way I am now, the tail wheel touches down (notice I didn't say hits) long before the mains, and Miss P'fer sits at a nice nose high stance. I could make the tail wheel hit even sooner and the nose higher, but don't know that I need to be doing that. However, the VGs on the wings may help soften/reduce the impact on the mains with a high nose, tail wheel first landing. Something to play around with. john hmkIIITitus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Cottrell Sent: Friday, March 31, 2017 3:56 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: vg's I have to admit that I am quite proud of you. Whether you believe it or not, the ones on the elevator do help t keep the tail flying and will also improve the landings. As I mentioned earlier, without them the tail feathers stall before the wing. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:37 PM PST US From: David Kulp Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Sun and Fun 2017 Have a nice trip, John. I'm envious of you. Sent with AquaMail for Android http://www.aqua-mail.com On March 31, 2017 6:48:56 PM "John Hauck" wrote: > Got gear stacked in the living room ready for departure. Bag full of MREs > and energy bars. Last night I checked out my most important piece of > equipment, my pack stove. Without it I don't get coffee, I use Folgers > Coffee Bags (like tea bags). When I take Mountain House Freeze Dried meals, > I need two cups of boiling water to reconstitute them. Also topped off the > fuel bottle. I have 1 liter and 1.5 liter fuel bottles to carry my naphtha > (Coleman Fuel). For the one week trip to Lakeland I can get by with the > smaller 1 liter bottle. > > Set up the tent in the front yard this afternoon. Learned that long time > ago. Finding an unserviceable tent after a long day, when you're ready to > go to bed, ain't much fun. If you don't use your tent but once or twice a > year, it is a good exercise to familiarize yourself with erection procedure > now (don't laugh) rather than try to relearn with an audience at Sun and > Fun. ;-) > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:22 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's I know it's been an odd winter, surely, but I really hadn't expected that Hell would freeze over so early in the spring, too. Ah, well, stranger things have happened. Good luck John and have fun. Rick Girard On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 1:20 PM, B Young wrote: > Your numbers are very close to mine. With differences in Asi I think > they are preforming good. The big difference in the vgs on the > horizontal comes with 2 people on board at near grose weight. > > Boyd > > On Mar 31, 2017 12:11 PM, "John Hauck" wrote: > >> <<...>> >> >> Hi Folks: >> >> After 25 years, Miss P'fer, my MKIII, has VG's. >> >> I installed the VGs per John Gilpin's instructions, tips at 7%, 4.5 >> inches from the leading edge. Instead of installing the first 15 VGs fr om >> the outboard rib at 60mm and the rest inboard at 90mm spacing, I >> installed all of them at 60mm. The reason I did this is because they fi t >> nicely in the valleys between the ribs and false ribs. >> >> They definitely lowered my stall speed and make landings a bit softer >> when I'm not on my game. I got a chance to do a little testing before >> the wind came up this morning. I'll learn more about the VG's as I fly. >> Haven't put them on the horizontal stabilizers. Right now, I don't see >> a need for them there. Maybe later. Ailerons seem to have a little mor e >> authority at slower speeds. Seem to feel sharper near the stall. >> >> If I can decipher my notes I'll give you all some numbers. >> >> Stalls were performed between 1000 and 3000 feet ASL. OAT was 60F. >> >> Aircraft loaded lightly. 10 gal fuel on board and 176 lb pilot. >> >> Numbers on the left are w/o VGs. On the right with VGs. >> >> Power off stall: >> >> Clean: 39 mph/33 to 34 mph >> >> Flaps, 20 deg: 32 mph/30 mph >> >> 40 deg: 30 mph/28 mph >> >> Biggest improvement was clean, power off. Stall reduced 5 to 6 mph. A >> little bit of difference with flaps, about 2 mph. >> >> Now when I get right to the edge of the stall I get a vibration in the >> prop, engine at idle, with a tiny shudder. I did not have this before >> VGs. >> >> BTW: Empty weight of my MKIII is 630 lbs. >> >> I didn't do any engine off stalls today. I'll check them out and see if >> there is a difference between dead stick and idling prop. >> >> Might have lost a little top end and cruise. Can't verify that at this >> time. I'll have to get some more time on the VGs to determine that. >> >> So far, I'm happy with the Stoll Speed VGs from John Gilpin, down under. >> I believe they will make my airplane a little safer. That never hurts. >> The wind kicked up before I had a chance to check out stall in ground >> effect on landing. I intentionally landed a little high, several times, but >> the VGs kept the MKIII from making that sharp break normally associated >> with landing a couple feet on the ground. That is a great improvement. >> >> john h >> >> mkIII >> >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:15 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's I am glad that John finally gave in and put VG's on his plane. We all tend to forget that John has never said that he didn't like VG's, merely that he didn't need them. He is right, he really didn't need them for his landings, although there may be other benefits to them other than slowing stall speed. He enjoyed my Firestar with VG's and it changed it enough that it surprised him, but when you come down to it a Kolb with flaps really doesn't need VG's. You can see that with the results that both he and Boyd achieved. Very little improvement with full flaps. About 6 or more MPH without flaps. The reason of course is that the flaps changes the airfoil and thus the plane without tipping the wing back to the point that it loses the airflow. Give him hell any way. :-) Larry ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:02 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Fwd: Kolb-List: VG's Subject: Re: Kolb-List: VG's I am glad that John finally gave in and put VG's on his plane. We all tend to forget that John has never said that he didn't like VG's, merely that he didn't need them. He is right, he really didn't need them for his landings, although there may be other benefits to them other than slowing stall speed. He enjoyed my Firestar with VG's and it changed it enough that it surprised him, but when you come down to it a Kolb with flaps really doesn't need VG's. You can see that with the results that both he and Boyd achieved. Very little improvement with full flaps. About 6 or more MPH without flaps. The reason of course is that the flaps changes the airfoil and thus the plane without tipping the wing back to the point that it loses the airflow. Larry -- The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others. If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.