---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/05/17: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:35 AM - Re: : VG's: VG's (Jim Thomson) 2. 08:15 AM - Vgs (B Young) 3. 08:22 AM - tail stall and vg's (Del Vinal) 4. 08:43 AM - Re: tail stall and vg's (John Hauck) 5. 09:08 AM - Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack (Richard Pike) 6. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack (John Hauck) 7. 09:56 AM - Re: tail stall and vg's (Bill Berle) 8. 11:28 AM - Re: tail stall and vg's (Hoppy) 9. 12:14 PM - Re: tail stall and vg's (Bill Berle) 10. 06:25 PM - Re: Help 503 side mount exhaust Muffler Mounting (KJ4CTZ) 11. 07:12 PM - Re: tail stall and vg's (Russ Kinne) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:22 AM PST US From: Jim Thomson Subject: RE: Kolb-List: : VG's: VG's I agree with John, carry a bit more speed on final and a bit more forward pressure on the stick, keep the tail flying longer. I'm confident you will experience better landings. Jim On Apr 3, 2017 9:17 AM, "John Hauck" wrote: > Add a little airspeed when flying healthy passengers. > > > Last thing I would do is add weight to my airplane to counteract > ineffective tail. However, I have added plenty of weight to Miss P'fer for > many other reasons. ;-) > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *B Young > *Sent:* Monday, April 03, 2017 11:02 AM > *To:* Kolb List > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: : VG's: VG's > > > To all, I guess the tail stall may be my ball of wax, let me make one > more stab at it..... > > I have described what I have experienced as tail stall. With some > information received off list, I will make another option available. > > When flying with a passenger, I could only generate enough down force to > slow my mkiii to 15 to 20 MPH above the speed the wing stalls. I've called > this tail stall. I guess to be able to defiantly call it tail stall I > should tuft the bottom of the elevators. Then there would be no > question. > > The alternative possibly could be that the horizontal stabilizer and the > elevators may not be stalling, but it may be that the control surfaces > may be too small to provide the down force necessary. > > Up untill the time I installed vgs I would have said that either > explanation was plausible. As soon as i installed the vgs on the > underside of the horizontal stabilizer,,, I instantly had enough down force > to hold the plane in a level attitude until the wing stalls. That would > indicate to me that the control surfaces were large enough. The vgs have > kept the air attached so that the elevators can work to their potential. > Had the vgs made no difference, I would have decided that the control > surfaces were too small. > > I spent some time at the computer and re did my w&b. Cg limits per the > plan are 25 to 35 percent of wing cord. When experiencing insufficient > down force, my cg calculated to 26.66. within the limits. > > My conclusion is that you eliminate tail stall, there are 3 ways that I > have come up with,,, (maybe 4) 1. Install larger horizontals and > elevators. 2. Install vgs. 3. Limit your passenger's weight. 4. > Add more physical weight to the tail.(thus applying more down force by > gravity in lieu of aero dynamics) > > I understand that men are deep thinkers, and maybe I have over thought > this. Larry stop laughing! > > Boyd > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:59 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: Kolb-List: Vgs Clip"""And on the subject of VG s on stab, aren't they usually placed just ahead of the hinge line where the air is going to break as it goes over the elevator not up near the leading edge???"""end clip ............... The instructions from John Gilpen say to install the vgs at 4 inches forward of the elevator hinge. If I had more vg sticky pads, I may have re tested by removed the vgs, and reinstalling them further forward. Then either move them back to the 4 inch location or leave them in the forward position depending on results. My thinking of why to put them further forward was a combination of a couple ideas. 1. In a further forward position, there would be more 'time / distance' for the vortex to develop. 2. Similar concept but a different way to look at it. On the wing we know that the vgs maintain better aileron control. The aileron is 3 1/2 feet back from the vgs. The question in my mind, if the vortexes are adding benefit 3 1/2 plus feet back, why limit it to 4 inches. There is a good chance someone has tested in this manner and that is why 4 inches is the recommendation. If any of you know, please pass on the information. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:54 AM PST US From: Del Vinal Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's Hi all, I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150 Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting article. And no one cared. In the poh of a 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps. Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I can find that Experimenter . Good luck all. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:37 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground. Thanks for that info, Del V. After Boyd Young's post about horizontal stab placement of VGs, I did a Google search. Discovered the reason most military transport aircraft have high tails is to keep them in clean air when flaps are deployed. Makes sense to me. The other reason, that was not mentioned in my search, was loading and off loading through a tail gate. The large flaps on the MKIII are in line with the tail section. Not hard, for me, to believe they'll divert the air off the tail, full flaps, engine at idle power. When it happened to me, at 85 mph, there was no resistance, no feel in the elevators. A discomforting feeling when diving straight down with a fat passenger. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack From: "Richard Pike" John Hauck wrote: > Rick N/Kolbers: > > It'll be alright. Miracles happen every day. The cataclysmic event to follow was my dead battery. Not much of an event, but enough to change my plans. > > Yes, Richard P and I had a little slow flight competition between our two birds. His with VGs and mine naked as a J- > Bird. Rick thinks we tied. Richard claims radio problems. What's that got to do with slow flight? I think I beat him. We'll have to do it again now that I have VGs. > > Buford has some medical problems. Don't know what, but it is enough to keep him off the List. Yes, I miss ole Buford too. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Yes, it was pretty much a tie. When the radio quit (I had knocked one of the plugs loose from the comm box behind the seat where it was plugged in) there was no way for us to coordinate how we were going to do things. I was uncomfortable with getting side by side with even a highly skilled pilot like yourself when we are having a slow fly competition where we are flying side by side as slow as possible, and by definition on the edge of a stall, and not being able to communicate or coordinate with each other. At times I was lower than you and could not see you, and flying next to somebody I can't see or talk to had me thinking "This is insane." Maybe you could see me, and were watching me close, but how could I know that? If I could have known that you were going to stay in a position to watch me and be responsible for any eventuality, that would have sufficed, & I could have focused on flying, but nothing had been arranged. So I was really distracted, & IMO it had a lot to do with everything. It would be fun to do it again, but I suspect that next time you would win hands down. I think the reason for the tie last time is that both of us were using a lot of power and a 100hp MKIII w/o vg's ought to hang on the prop to the point that it can fly just as slow as a lighter 65hp MKIII with vg's. A better test would be two MKIII's of equal engine and prop, one with VG's, one w/o. Hate that you missed S & F, you have always been a fixture at the Kolb tent. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468067#468067 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:35 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack Nope. 100 hp had nothing to do with the competition except increase the weight of my already fat MKIII, which still had half my gear on board. Wonder how much heavier it was than yours. I was probably turning 3000, nibbling on the stall. As an added note: My 912ULS only produces 95 hp on my airplane because it is propped for 5500 WOT straight and level. To get 100 hp I'd have to prop for 5800 WOT straight and level flight. I can assure you I had you in sight constantly. A little something I learned about flying formation in helicopters many years ago. Besides, I made it clear on the ground I would fly the right side, south, of the airstrip and you would fly the north side. I believe you also suggested this slow flight competition to prove you could whip my ass with your VGs. ;-) There is no better test than the test between me and you, my airplane and your airplane, to see which one could fly the slowest. I beat. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama - Fly like a butter fly, float like a feather. ;-) -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2017 11:09 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: VG's, tail stall, angle of attack --> John Hauck wrote: > Rick N/Kolbers: > > It'll be alright. Miracles happen every day. The cataclysmic event to follow was my dead battery. Not much of an event, but enough to change my plans. > > Yes, Richard P and I had a little slow flight competition between our > two birds. His with VGs and mine naked as a J- Bird. Rick thinks we tied. Richard claims radio problems. What's that got to do with slow flight? I think I beat him. We'll have to do it again now that I have VGs. > > Buford has some medical problems. Don't know what, but it is enough to keep him off the List. Yes, I miss ole Buford too. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > Yes, it was pretty much a tie. When the radio quit (I had knocked one of the plugs loose from the comm box behind the seat where it was plugged in) there was no way for us to coordinate how we were going to do things. I was uncomfortable with getting side by side with even a highly skilled pilot like yourself when we are having a slow fly competition where we are flying side by side as slow as possible, and by definition on the edge of a stall, and not being able to communicate or coordinate with each other. At times I was lower than you and could not see you, and flying next to somebody I can't see or talk to had me thinking "This is insane." Maybe you could see me, and were watching me close, but how could I know that? If I could have known that you were going to stay in a position to watch me and be responsible for any eventuality, that would have sufficed, & I could have focused on flying, but nothing had been arranged. So I was really distracted, & IMO it had a lot to do with everything. It would be fun to do it again, but I suspect that next time you would win hands down. I think the reason for the tie last time is that both of us were using a lot of power and a 100hp MKIII w/o vg's ought to hang on the prop to the point that it can fly just as slow as a lighter 65hp MKIII with vg's. A better test would be two MKIII's of equal engine and prop, one with VG's, one w/o. Hate that you missed S & F, you have always been a fixture at the Kolb tent. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468067#468067 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:55 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff. The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would provide a cambered surface. The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled out all the stops and went for broke. I would love to see that article again if you can find it. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM Hi all, I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150 Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting article. And no one cared. In the poh of a 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail with disturbed air and caused the plane to become uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps. Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I can find that Experimenter . Good luck all. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:28:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's From: Hoppy Yep...Bill No wild geese no gosling's!! Guys like Homer and Dennis and Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing our field of flying,..,. I tell the GA buddies who like to rib me...."just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!" Herb On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > > I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff. > > The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would provide a cambered surface. > > The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled out all the stops and went for broke. > > I would love to see that article again if you can find it. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM > > Hi all, > I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now > likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In > an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John > Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150 > Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc > and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had > hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting > article. And no one cared. In the poh of a > 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full > flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club > had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail > with disturbed air and caused the plane to become > uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight > wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps. > Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I > can find that Experimenter . Good luck all. > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:53 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!" Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration of s*** for it with my blessing. Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other" kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's, flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines, or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to fly in... I thought all that was just so low class. Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As I had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical looking, and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another, I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features and capabilities it has. So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172, and I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but I try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM Yep...Bill No wild geese no gosling's!! Guys like Homer and Dennis and Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing our field of flying,..,. I tell the GA buddies who like to rib me...."just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!" Herb On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle wrote: > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I remember that article !!! He had some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and a bunch of other wild stuff. > > The tubes served as a poor boy double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, they would provide a cambered surface. > > The article went on to say he was a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your average airplane modifier or something. It looked like something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that the article said he made very significant reductions in minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because he pulled out all the stops and went for broke. > > I would love to see that article again if you can find it. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 8:22 AM > > Hi all, > I've been watching the thread and am glad Big John now > likes the vg things. I use homemade ones. In > an Experimenter EAA mag from the early nineties John > Dresseldoff reported on his work with vg's and a 150 > Cessna. He modified the wing tips, the control surfaces, etc > and had slow flight down in the mid 20mph range. He had > hundreds of vg's on the wing alone.Very interesting > article. And no one cared. In the poh of a > 1952 170B Cessna I had it was stated no slips with full > flaps. Hand written in, so I went looking why. The 170 club > had found, after a fatal, that the flaps blanketed the tail > with disturbed air and caused the plane to become > uncontrollable near the ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight > wing 170 did not have this issue as it had very small flaps. > Loved to slip it did.. I'll see if I > can find that Experimenter . Good luck all. > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:59 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Help 503 side mount exhaust Muffler Mounting From: "KJ4CTZ" Hey, thanks a lot guys. These photos help. I do not have a photo of how my current exhaust (muffler) was mounted when I bought this plane and it is all apart right now. They way it was mounted was with two isolation mounts (male thread on each side of a rubber block 3/4" in diameter) screwed into two of the head bolt stand-off nuts and the other end attached to a dual band muffler clamp. This setup was very weak and rested against the shroud of the engine. Put bluntly, it was ugly, weak and concerned me thinking it was going to break off and go through the fan. Actually, I scraped a couple photos off a video I made of the walk-around of my Kolb Firestar 1 Video of walk-around here: https://youtu.be/j1gRQWckwdI?list=PL0k9OzgGAsmt12QQbYGeHYg7-pd7ifSMZ See the below 2 attachments Is there some place where I could purchase the aluminum angle pre-drilled for a 503? I will be at Sun-N-Fun this Saturday so I will look around there. Again, thanks for the help guys, Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468081#468081 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/mufflermount_2_117.png http://forums.matronics.com//files/mufflermount_1_207.png ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's From: Russ Kinne BILL, MY CONGRATS TO YOU FOR BEING SO HONEST! - and confessing prior faults Fair winds, Russ > On Apr 5, 2017, at 3:14 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Herb wrote: "just a weed eater that flies!! and you are just a medical from flying one yourselves!" > > Well I have a confession to make, and everyone here can give me a great big ration of s*** for it with my blessing. > > Once upon a time I was one of those guys that looked down their noses at "other" kinds of airplanes. I was lucky enough to be a sailplane racer in the 1980's, flying those beautiful gleaming white hand built German gliders with 50 foot wingspans. When I saw "lawn chair" ultralights with their loud 2 stroke engines, or powered parachutes, or even the Cessna 150's that I had learned how to fly in... I thought all that was just so low class. > > Thankfully, a combination of age, wisdom, education, seeing things from different perspectives... and having life punch me in the face a few times... changed all that. I can't afford one aileron for a racing sailplane these days. As I had posted some months ago, when I first saw a Kolb I thought it was comical looking, and why would anyone design something that looked like that. Years later when I learned more about airplanes and what makes them fly one way or another, I eventually understood what Homer Kolb was trying to accomplish. And eventually I went looking for a Kolb because of the unique combination of features and capabilities it has. > > So now I'm the guy at the airport who just as soon defends light and ultralight aircraft when my Cessna driver friends rib me about it. I love my old 172, and I would give anything to be back in the cockpit of a racing sailplane, but I try to appreciate every other type of aircraft just as much. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 4/5/17, Hoppy wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: tail stall and vg's > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2017, 11:27 AM > > > > Yep...Bill > > No wild geese no gosling's!! > > Guys like Homer and Dennis and > Wayne Ison did a fine job of advancing > our field of flying,..,. I tell > the GA buddies who like to rib > me...."just a weed eater that flies!! > and you are just a medical from > flying one yourselves!" Herb > > > On 04/05/2017 11:54 AM, Bill Berle > wrote: >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> I remember that article !!! He had > some tubes that were mounted spanwise behind the flaps, and > a bunch of other wild stuff. >> >> The tubes served as a poor boy > double or triple slotted flap like DeHavilland had. Being > round tubes it didn't matter what the flap deflection was, > they would provide a cambered surface. >> >> The article went on to say he was > a "unique" guy, or that he was "more determined" than your > average airplane modifier or something. It looked like > something that NACA would do in the 1950's. I remember that > the article said he made very significant reductions in > minimum speed, at the cost of cruise speed of course. But I > remember thinking that this guy was worth respecting because > he pulled out all the stops and went for broke. >> >> I would love to see that article > again if you can find it. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Wed, 4/5/17, Del Vinal > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: tail > stall and vg's >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Wednesday, April 5, > 2017, 8:22 AM >> >> Hi all, >> I've been watching the > thread and am glad Big John now >> likes the vg things. I use > homemade ones. In >> an Experimenter EAA mag > from the early nineties John >> Dresseldoff reported on his > work with vg's and a 150 >> Cessna. He modified the > wing tips, the control surfaces, etc >> and had slow flight down in > the mid 20mph range. He had >> hundreds of vg's on the > wing alone.Very interesting >> article. And no one > cared. In the poh of a >> 1952 170B Cessna I had it > was stated no slips with full >> flaps. Hand written in, so > I went looking why. The 170 club >> had found, after a fatal, > that the flaps blanketed the tail >> with disturbed air and > caused the plane to become >> uncontrollable near the > ground. Lawn dart.My 1948 straight >> wing 170 did not have this > issue as it had very small flaps. >> Loved to slip it > did.. I'll see if I >> can find that Experimenter > . Good luck all. >> > >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.