Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:23 AM - New Kolb owner (Norman)
2. 05:15 AM - Re: New Kolb owner (Richard Pike)
3. 01:47 PM - Re: Blue Bird Flight (George Helton)
4. 02:16 PM - You've heard of the short wing Pipers, (Charlie England)
5. 02:31 PM - Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (Charlie England)
6. 03:27 PM - Re: Blue Bird Flight (John Hauck)
7. 03:53 PM - Re: You've heard of the short wing Pipers, (Richard Pike)
8. 03:59 PM - Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (John Hauck)
9. 04:19 PM - Re: New Kolb owner (Richard Pike)
10. 05:15 PM - Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (Charlie England)
11. 05:58 PM - Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (John Hauck)
12. 06:14 PM - Re: Re: New Kolb owner (John Hauck)
13. 08:11 PM - Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (Charlie England)
14. 08:55 PM - Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Hi All,
I've just bought myself a 582 blue top Kolb Mk.3 (not the xtra) as
I've always fancied one, but here in the U.K. they're like hen's
teeth, or very expensive.
I'd like some info as I don't have any basic info on the aircraft,
just the builders manual, no plans etc, I even don't know if there's a
pilots manual.
On inspection I found there were no aileron balance rods although the
mounts were there. Does anyone know what weight they should be please?
Many thanks, Norman
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
Greetings Norman, welcome to the list.
The counterbalances are a solid steel bar 20" long, disconnect the aileron pushrod
and slide the bar in and out of the mount until the aileron has a neutral
balance. Secure the bar at that point.
Here is a little info: http://oh2fly.net/oldpoops/Lexan%20rear%20enclosure.html
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468172#468172
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Blue Bird Flight |
John, I meant to thank you for tailwheel strut info. Makes sense to me. I'll
give shortening it up a bit a try. I just left the length the same as the o
riginal fiberglass strut.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton@gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
> On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:08 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
>
> If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll correc
t me if I am wrong.
>
> -Firestar
> -Firestar KXP
> -Firestar II
>
> Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks, n
ot Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS, and the
"original" MKIII.
>
> BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more stru
t than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional twist, bo
uncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a little tighter.
I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated 4130 strut. Works good
on Miss P'fer.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
>
> John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the ne
w breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather up he
re in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on the old Fi
restar MK1, so I can try it out.
> <image001.jpg>
>
> George H.
> Firestar MK1, #FS100
> 14GDH
> gdhelton@gmail.com
> Mesick, Michigan
>
>
> Have a great day!
>
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job l
oaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get me h
alfway to Lakeland.
>
> The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
>
> I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
>
> 35-36 mph clean.
>
> 32 mph 20 deg flaps.
>
> 30 mph 40 deg flaps.
>
> Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them. I
can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
>
> Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very cl
ose, if at all.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
Message 4
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| Subject: | You've heard of the short wing Pipers, |
How about a short nosed Kolb?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar
(restoration project). IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum
seems to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that
it spent its entire past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to
free air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is
a close friend who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he
says that it always cooled fine running it free-air with some added
ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing
a showplane restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced
Kolbers can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will
make them safer/more durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all
service bulletins or recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the
advice to add braces to the tailspring stinger. And I know that the
later Twinstars have mass balances on at least some of the control
surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early models? This one
does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to
remove the ailerons, etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 6
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| Subject: | Blue Bird Flight |
George H/Kolbers:
The two photos will give you an idea what mine looks like.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
John, I meant to thank you for tailwheel strut info. Makes sense to me.
I'll give shortening it up a bit a try. I just left the length the same
as the original fiberglass strut.
George H.
Firestar 1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton@gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
On Apr 9, 2017, at 12:08 AM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
I think George H has invented a new model Firestar, the MKI.
If memory serves me correctly these are the Firestar models. Ya'll
correct me if I am wrong.
-Firestar
-Firestar KXP
-Firestar II
Don't think there was a MKI, but I know what you are getting at. Folks,
not Homer Kolb, decided to call the first FS model the "original" FS,
and the "original" MKIII.
BTW: You could cut that tail wheel strut in half and still have more
strut than you will ever need. Shortening the strut reduces torsional
twist, bouncing, bending, and wiggling. Makes tail wheel steering a
little tighter. I use a 6" (exposed length) .120" wall heat treated
4130 strut. Works good on Miss P'fer.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Blue Bird Flight
John, it's good to hear you're up there having some fun. I finished the
new breakaway tailwheel project today. Now I just need some warm weather
up here in northern Michigan so I can finish painting the left wing on
the old Firestar MK1, so I can try it out.
<image001.jpg>
George H.
Firestar MK1, #FS100
14GDH
gdhelton@gmail.com
Mesick, Michigan
Have a great day!
On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
Late this evening I pushed the MKIII out of the hanger. Not an easy job
loaded down with 25 gal, 150 lbs, of 91 oct mogas. This was fuel to get
me halfway to Lakeland.
The MKIII performed well. Great flying weather, no wind and cool.
I checked out stall speed, idle power, with this load:
35-36 mph clean.
32 mph 20 deg flaps.
30 mph 40 deg flaps.
Shot a dozen landings in all configurations without blowing any of them.
I can't take credit for that. I think the VGs are working.
Not sure if I have lost any cruise speed or not. If I have, it is very
close, if at all.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: You've heard of the short wing Pipers, |
I'm waiting for Mr. Bean to peek over the windshield...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468209#468209
Message 8
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| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
Charlie E/Kolbers:
I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold with
vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably have
never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in a
wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully. Yours
may be an exception.
Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important to
me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems to
be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its entire
past life in central FL.
This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free air
cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers can
share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at least
some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the ailerons,
etc for recovering?
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Charlie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
Boyd Young of the list sent me a PM, good question, he said: "Do you do this with
or without removing the flap connected? If with the flap, do you remove
the flap pushrod? Explain Your answer..."
Wish I could, it's been long enough I don't rightly remember. I went out to the
hangar just now and disconnected the aileron pushrod, and the aileron went to
a neutral position, the counterbalance was pretty much aligned alongside the
wingtip. Waggled the flaps and ailerons, and it kept going back to that general
position.
Which makes sense; where the flaps are attached to the back side of the aileron
torque tube, they contribute a little weight to the ailerons, but at a very short
moment arm.
I'm sure there was some info that came from Kolb, but I no longer have it, and
obviously it was not in the original documentation. If I remember correctly (HAH)
I raised the tail up so that the bottom of the wing was horizontal, disconnected
the ailerons, and slid the weight in and out until the ailerons aligned
with the bottom of the wing.
Why not call Kolb and ask them? Since they have been including counterbalances
in the kits for over 15 years now, they will probably be able to tell you a lot
better than any of us could.
I do remember that there was a lot of kerfluffle on the Kolb list the year before
I installed them, which my airframe log shows as 1999. The list doesn't go
back that far, it only goes to 2006, but if you do a search on "Aileron Flutter"
you will see a lot of posts about it, it was still a big deal, but no specifics
on how to install the counterbalances.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468211#468211
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when
driving out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier
experimentals I've owned. I've got a spring loaded center punch that I
ground to a flat nosed, straight shaft, & use it to punch out driven
rivets after drilling the heads. I also use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack
saw 'V'.
I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught
that's used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something
to protect from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know
you've got a problem.
The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he
had added some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may
well have added a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends
near the prop for extraction. We'll see.
We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing
lateral bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very
thin gauge aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier
fabric wing a/c to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and
also provide a smooth, more aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a
little aero cleanup :-) ).
I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm
curious about any mods people have been successful with.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>
> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>
> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>
> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>
> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites-on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>
> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>
> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
>
> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>
> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
" We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
Charlie E/Gents:
I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on the
leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or little
or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving out
mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also use
small, flush cutting 'dykes'
(diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw 'V'.
I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got a
problem.
The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added a
'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c to
provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
Thanks,
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>
> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>
> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It takes
a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to prevent
spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>
> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an old
fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to. This
I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>
> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were rusted
well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>
> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites
> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>
> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>
> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular model
and kits only produced a couple years.
>
> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>
> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>
> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
> --> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>
> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>
> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>
> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or recommended
updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>
> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>
> Any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: New Kolb owner |
I experienced aileron flutter with all three of my Kolbs, US, FS, and MKIII.
I made up some counterbalance weights when I was building the MKIII because
I had a good idea I would continue to have flutter problems. My weights did
more to aggravate flutter than prevent it. First approach into Wetumpka
Airport went into flutter, snatching the stick out of my hand. Got it on
the ground and removed them. Anything over 80 mph and they would start to
flutter. Could not get Kolb Aircraft to believe we had an aileron flutter
problem. Miss P'fer was new, flew to Lakeland, Homer's in PA, and OSH. One
eye on the ASI and one out of the cockpit. Flew a photo shoot off a Cessna
210 at OSH. He had trouble slowing to 80 and I went into flutter over 80.
Getting ready to do my first flight to Alaska. Sun and Fun 1994. Dick
Rahill was hauling butt back from South Lakeland to the UL strip with a
thunderstorm hot on his tail. Turbulent air, WOT, all the sudden the FSII
went into violent aileron flutter. Dick was white as a sheet when he
landed. Got his attention. Now they believed me. Less than a week after I
returned to Alabama I had a set of FSII aileron counterbalance weights and
mounts. I made them work on the MKIII. Never had an inkling of coming
anywhere near aileron flutter after installation. They work.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: New Kolb owner
--> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Boyd Young of the list sent me a PM, good question, he said: "Do you do this
with or without removing the flap connected? If with the flap, do you
remove the flap pushrod? Explain Your answer..."
Wish I could, it's been long enough I don't rightly remember. I went out to
the hangar just now and disconnected the aileron pushrod, and the aileron
went to a neutral position, the counterbalance was pretty much aligned
alongside the wingtip. Waggled the flaps and ailerons, and it kept going
back to that general position.
Which makes sense; where the flaps are attached to the back side of the
aileron torque tube, they contribute a little weight to the ailerons, but at
a very short moment arm.
I'm sure there was some info that came from Kolb, but I no longer have it,
and obviously it was not in the original documentation. If I remember
correctly (HAH) I raised the tail up so that the bottom of the wing was
horizontal, disconnected the ailerons, and slid the weight in and out until
the ailerons aligned with the bottom of the wing.
Why not call Kolb and ask them? Since they have been including
counterbalances in the kits for over 15 years now, they will probably be
able to tell you a lot better than any of us could.
I do remember that there was a lot of kerfluffle on the Kolb list the year
before I installed them, which my airframe log shows as 1999. The list
doesn't go back that far, it only goes to 2006, but if you do a search on
"Aileron Flutter" you will see a lot of posts about it, it was still a big
deal, but no specifics on how to install the counterbalances.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468211#468211
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
Yes, you did. Sorry; I've got to adjust to having 3 spars instead of 2.
:-) Thank you for the info.
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 7:57 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> " We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
>
> Charlie E/Gents:
>
> I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on
the leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or
little or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
>
> Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
>
> Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving
out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also
use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
> (diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw
'V'.
> I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
> pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got
a problem.
>
> The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added
a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
>
> We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
> Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
> Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c
to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
>
> I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>>
>> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>>
>> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It
takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to
prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>>
>> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an
old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to.
This I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>>
>> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were
rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>>
>> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-sites
>> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>>
>> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>>
>> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular
model and kits only produced a couple years.
>>
>> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>>
>> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>>
>> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
>> England
>> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>>
>> --> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>>
>> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>>
>> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
>> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>>
>> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>>
>> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
>> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or
recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>>
>> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>>
>> Any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request |
I don't have that problem since I have never built or flown anything but Kolbs
and a few helicopters.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
Yes, you did. Sorry; I've got to adjust to having 3 spars instead of 2.
:-) Thank you for the info.
Charlie
On 4/9/2017 7:57 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>
> " We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.'
>
> Charlie E/Gents:
>
> I didn't say "leading edge ribs", I said "leading edge." Lateral bracing on
the leading edge tube keeps the noses of the ribs in column. Weak lateral, or
little or no lateral bracing will allow the ribs to come out of column and fail.
I know this by experience.
>
> Homer Kolb did not wrap the leading edge with alum sheet, and did not recommend
doing this. He felt his bow tip design and the valleys between ribs improved
slow speed flight and decreased stall speed. Kolbs all use the same airfoil,
all models, and have always been great slow speed performers, long before VGs.
Homer's idea of flying was low and slow, right down in the tree tops to stay
in touch with what was going on down there. He liked to fly with the birds.
Thus the large ailerons and high lift wing.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
> England
> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>
> --> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks, John. I wasn't sure about how rugged the tubes would be when driving
out mandrels, etc. I use similar tricks on the heavier experimentals I've owned.
I've got a spring loaded center punch that I ground to a flat nosed, straight
shaft, & use it to punch out driven rivets after drilling the heads. I also
use small, flush cutting 'dykes'
> (diagonal wire cutters) to grab pop rivet heads; same idea as your hack saw
'V'.
> I will be checking the 4130 pieces for integrity. One trick I was taught that's
used on Cubs, Taylorcraft, etc is to wrap the tube with something to protect
from scratching & squeeze it with a pair of 'channel lock'
> pliers. Not a perfect test, but if the tube gives at all, you know you've got
a problem.
>
> The free air cooling thing I'll be looking at, but he told me that he had added
some ducting (haven't seen it all assembled yet) so he may well have added
a 'collector' on the input side & an exit duct that ends near the prop for extraction.
We'll see.
>
> We've pulled the fabric off one side of a wing, & I don't recall seeing lateral
bracing of the leading edge ribs. But I wasn't looking for it.
> Will definitely make sure it has bracing in place before recover.
> Speaking of which, has anyone wrapped the leading edge ribs with very thin gauge
aluminum sheet before covering? It's done on some heavier fabric wing a/c
to provide somewhat of a D-cell (lateral bracing) and also provide a smooth, more
aerodynamic leading edge (nothing like a little aero cleanup :-) ).
>
> I really don't want to stray too far from the original design, but I'm curious
about any mods people have been successful with.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
> On 4/9/2017 5:58 PM, John Hauck wrote:
>>
>> Charlie E/Kolbers:
>>
>> I have recovered a bunch of them. All that I tore up and a few I didn't.
>>
>> Drilling rivets can be accomplished once you have the mandrels removed. It
takes a 1/16" punch, or you can use a pulled mandrel, grind the end flat, hold
with vise grips, and knock out with a hammer. The rivet needs to be held to
prevent spinning. I grind a V in the end of a hack saw blade with sharp beveled
edges. Use that to push up under the rivet to lock it in place while drilling.
>>
>> 4130 airframes should be tube sealed when fabricated. 99% of Kolbs probably
have never been tube sealed. Their builders probably never heard of tube sealing.
4130 rusts from inside out if not sealed. That would worry me with an
old fuselage, especially a Twinstar. I can't remember exactly what the fuselage
looks like other that the root tube that seats and stuff are attached to.
This I would make sure is rust free on the inside.
>>
>> I helped Brother Jim rebuild Adriel Heisey's Twinstar, Navajo Nation pilot that
shot aerial photos published in Nat Geo and other pubs, that he crashed in
a wind storm. It was frightening when we started cutting tubing. Most were
rusted well beyond serviceability. Here are photos of his Twinstar:
>>
>> https://uanews.arizona.edu/story/aerial-photos-of-archaeological-site
>> s
>> -on-exhibit-at-state-museum
>>
>> I don't recall anyone flying a free air cooled Rotax on a Kolb successfully.
Yours may be an exception.
>>
>> Don't know of any published updates for the Twinstar. It was not a popular
model and kits only produced a couple years.
>>
>> Strong lateral bracing of the leading edge of the wing is extremely important
to me. Poor/weak lateral bracing can lead to leading edge failure. This causes
the Kolb to stop flying immediately.
>>
>> Lower tail post bracing makes it last longer.
>>
>> I don't know a whole lot about the Twinstar. The one Kolb model I never flew.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
>> England
>> Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2017 4:33 PM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb Twinstar (original version) info request
>>
>> --> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>>
>> OK, now that I've got that short nose Kolb bit out of my system....
>>
>> I'm now the proud owner of an N-numbered early Kolb Twinstar (restoration project).
IIRC, its serial number is in the low 20's range.
>> A little rusty, but we've peeled the fabric on one wing & the aluminum seems
to be in good shape, with very little corrosion, considering that it spent its
entire past life in central FL.
>>
>> This one's got a Rotax 503 (converted from single to dual carbs, and to free
air cooling) that seems to be in great shape. The previous owner is a close friend
who was the builder. I trust what he tells me, and he says that it always
cooled fine running it free-air with some added ducting.
>>
>> I'll be replacing hardware, 'soft' parts, etc, but don't intend on doing a showplane
restoration; just a safe, nice flying 'after supper' flyer.
>> I've got the plans for the plane, but I'm hoping that you experienced Kolbers
can share any suggested mods to these early models, that will make them safer/more
durable/etc. Is there a published list of any/all service bulletins or
recommended updates? For instance, I've seen the advice to add braces to the tailspring
stinger. And I know that the later Twinstars have mass balances on at
least some of the control surfaces; is it recommended to add them to the early
models? This one does not have any mass balances anywhere.
>>
>> Who's recovered one? Any issues when you drilled out the rivets to remove the
ailerons, etc for recovering?
>>
>> Any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
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