---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/13/17: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:48 AM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (B Young) 2. 08:18 AM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Ralph B) 3. 08:18 AM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Stuart Harner) 4. 10:04 AM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (B Young) 5. 12:55 PM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Ralph B) 6. 02:04 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Bill Berle) 7. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (John Hauck) 8. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Bill Berle) 9. 03:45 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (John Hauck) 10. 04:03 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Bill Berle) 11. 04:22 PM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Bill Berle) 12. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Rick Neilsen) 13. 06:41 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Charlie England) 14. 07:40 PM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Rick Neilsen) 15. 07:46 PM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Richard Pike) 16. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (John Hauck) 17. 08:05 PM - Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic (Ralph B) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:51 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Kolbers,,,,,, I remember a few years back that someone mentioned that they trimmed a Kolb by adjusting the thrust line of the engine by raising or lowering the front or back of the motor mounts. I haven't found the correct search term to find it in the archives... Is there anyone that is still on the list who can shed some light? Boyd mkiii Utah On Jun 12, 2017 2:34 PM, "jonealjr" wrote: > > PLEASE HELP IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS :) > > I have a mark III classic w 912 uls Acting odd during taxi needs lots of > left rudder to keep on the runway with tail on and off the ground and while > flying needs lots of right stick to keep plane level. If you let go of the > controls during straight and level flight the plane wants to roll to the > left has anyone had similar experiences and or has anybody had any luck > with adjusting engine mounts changing the thrust angle to help with aileron > trim etc > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470012#470012 > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic From: "Ralph B" Here are pictures of the Kolb U-joint adjust for roll control. Put washers in on top or bottom for whichever the way you want to correct the roll. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Original Firestar 447 N91493 E-AB 1000+ hours 28 years flying it Kolbra 912ULS N20386 500 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470049#470049 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/left_u_joint__847.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim_adjust__128.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:52 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Jack Hart has a lot of info about this on a Firefly. http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly56.html From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 8:49 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Kolbers,,,,,, I remember a few years back that someone mentioned that they trimmed a Kolb by adjusting the thrust line of the engine by raising or lowering the front or back of the motor mounts. I haven't found the correct search term to find it in the archives... Is there anyone that is still on the list who can shed some light? Boyd mkiii Utah On Jun 12, 2017 2:34 PM, "jonealjr" wrote: PLEASE HELP IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS :) I have a mark III classic w 912 uls Acting odd during taxi needs lots of left rudder to keep on the runway with tail on and off the ground and while flying needs lots of right stick to keep plane level. If you let go of the controls during straight and level flight the plane wants to roll to the left has anyone had similar experiences and or has anybody had any luck with adjusting engine mounts changing the thrust angle to help with aileron trim etc Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470012#470012 -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:53 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Stewart, thanks, that link was exactly what I was looking for... Boyd Young Do not archive. On Jun 13, 2017 9:21 AM, "Stuart Harner" wrote: > Jack Hart has a lot of info about this on a Firefly. > > > http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly56.html > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *B Young > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 13, 2017 8:49 AM > *To:* Kolb List > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me > Mark III clasic > > > Kolbers,,,,,, I remember a few years back that someone mentioned that > they trimmed a Kolb by adjusting the thrust line of the engine by raising > or lowering the front or back of the motor mounts. I haven't found the > correct search term to find it in the archives... Is there anyone that is > still on the list who can shed some light? > > Boyd mkiii Utah > > > On Jun 12, 2017 2:34 PM, "jonealjr" wrote: > > > PLEASE HELP IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS :) > > I have a mark III classic w 912 uls Acting odd during taxi needs lots of > left rudder to keep on the runway with tail on and off the ground and while > flying needs lots of right stick to keep plane level. If you let go of the > controls during straight and level flight the plane wants to roll to the > left has anyone had similar experiences and or has anybody had any luck > with adjusting engine mounts changing the thrust angle to help with aileron > trim etc > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470012#470012 > > > =================================== > -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www. > matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > =================================== > FORUMS - > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > WIKI - > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > ========== > b Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > =================================== > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:29 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic From: "Ralph B" Along with the U-joints, there is also the offset fin. This was installed by the builder and I don't see how I would do without it. I've also included a picture of the adjustable rudder trim tab. Between the U-joints, offset fin, and rudder trim tab, the Kolbra can fly hands off in calm air. For pitch trim, the builder installed a motorized bungee windup to move the stick forward or aft. It is controlled with a toggle switch for nose up or down trim. Ralph B -------- Ralph B Kolb Kolbra 912uls N20386 550 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470058#470058 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/trim_tab__102.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/offset_4__316.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/offset_1__128.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:10 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:53 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic If the aircraft was mine and I had all those problems, I'd start from scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had not been modified (especially the control system), and everything was rigged as specified in the plans and instructions. I would insure I was starting my journey from a standard beginning. Once I got it back to standard configuration, then I would test fly it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test flying. He would know what to expect from the MKIII in flight. If I still encountered the same problems, I'd put the standard (large) rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it is aileron or wing incidence problems. Always change only one thing at a time. After each change, test fly to see what that change has affected. I would not change thrust line in any way, unless it has been modified. Then I would change it back to what it should be per the instructions. The thrust lines on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust lines would not affect the aircrafts flight characteristic as described unless you mounted the engine backwards. I would not try to trim the aircraft with flap(s). Aileron trim tabs are effective for slight roll problems, not the problems you all describe. I test flew the latest model MKIII Extra. It demonstrated similar characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was without a rudder trim tab. We installed the large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. These are my thoughts and experiences. It is the way I would do it. I am not recommending anyone else try this at home. John h Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:29 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic John H thank you for your reply, but I am still left with a specific question: If you were test flying someone's Mk 3 Classic, and you found that it was 2X or 3X as difficult to roll the aircraft to the right as opposed to rolling it the left, and if the roll rate to the right was 1/2 as fast as the roll rate to the left, what would you suspect as the cause of this condition? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:18 PM Hauck" If the aircraft was mine and I had all those problems, I'd start from scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had not been modified (especially the control system), and everything was rigged as specified in the plans and instructions. I would insure I was starting my journey from a standard beginning. Once I got it back to standard configuration, then I would test fly it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test flying. He would know what to expect from the MKIII in flight. If I still encountered the same problems, I'd put the standard (large) rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it is aileron or wing incidence problems. Always change only one thing at a time. After each change, test fly to see what that change has affected. I would not change thrust line in any way, unless it has been modified. Then I would change it back to what it should be per the instructions. The thrust lines on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust lines would not affect the aircrafts flight characteristic as described unless you mounted the engine backwards. I would not try to trim the aircraft with flap(s). Aileron trim tabs are effective for slight roll problems, not the problems you all describe. I test flew the latest model MKIII Extra. It demonstrated similar characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was without a rudder trim tab. We installed the large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. These are my thoughts and experiences. It is the way I would do it. I am not recommending anyone else try this at home. John h Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:23 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic In my experience it was lack of an adequate trim tab, if all else was rigged to specs and the control system had not been changed or modified. The aircraft I was flying was much easier to roll right than left. John h mkIII Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:32 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic John H thank you for your reply, but I am still left with a specific question: If you were test flying someone's Mk 3 Classic, and you found that it was 2X or 3X as difficult to roll the aircraft to the right as opposed to rolling it the left, and if the roll rate to the right was 1/2 as fast as the roll rate to the left, what would you suspect as the cause of this condition? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:18 PM Hauck" If the aircraft was mine and I had all those problems, I'd start from scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had not been modified (especially the control system), and everything was rigged as specified in the plans and instructions. I would insure I was starting my journey from a standard beginning. Once I got it back to standard configuration, then I would test fly it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test flying. He would know what to expect from the MKIII in flight. If I still encountered the same problems, I'd put the standard (large) rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it is aileron or wing incidence problems. Always change only one thing at a time. After each change, test fly to see what that change has affected. I would not change thrust line in any way, unless it has been modified. Then I would change it back to what it should be per the instructions. The thrust lines on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust lines would not affect the aircrafts flight characteristic as described unless you mounted the engine backwards. I would not try to trim the aircraft with flap(s). Aileron trim tabs are effective for slight roll problems, not the problems you all describe. I test flew the latest model MKIII Extra. It demonstrated similar characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was without a rudder trim tab. We installed the large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. These are my thoughts and experiences. It is the way I would do it. I am not recommending anyone else try this at home. John h Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:43 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic That is very helpful, thank you for taking time to respond. Over and above the potential causes and fixes for this, another thing I am getting out of all this discussion is that significant aileron system issues (control heaviness, asymmetrical loads and high required force) is not seen as being rare or abnormal for a Kolb. As a suggestion, I will advise Jimmy O'Neal to find the original Kolb rigging and control setup specifications and start by making sure that this is all set back to the factory specs. That way he will know where he is starting from. I will also advise him to make a proper series of measurements to determine whether there is a warp, twist, or other "big picture" issue with the aircraft. As far as resolving the high force to actuate the aileron system, does anyone on the Kolb list know whether the aerobatic style "spades" that were developed for one Kolb actually solved this problem? It seems like a lot of effort and modification, but I also know that these spades do work (on aerobatic aircraft and for a different intended purpose). Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:45 PM Hauck" In my experience it was lack of an adequate trim tab, if all else was rigged to specs and the control system had not been changed or modified. The aircraft I was flying was much easier to roll right than left. John h mkIII Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:32 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle John H thank you for your reply, but I am still left with a specific question: If you were test flying someone's Mk 3 Classic, and you found that it was 2X or 3X as difficult to roll the aircraft to the right as opposed to rolling it the left, and if the roll rate to the right was 1/2 as fast as the roll rate to the left, what would you suspect as the cause of this condition? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:18 PM "John Hauck" If the aircraft was mine and I had all those problems, I'd start from scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had not been modified (especially the control system), and everything was rigged as specified in the plans and instructions. I would insure I was starting my journey from a standard beginning. Once I got it back to standard configuration, then I would test fly it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test flying. He would know what to expect from the MKIII in flight. If I still encountered the same problems, I'd put the standard (large) rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it is aileron or wing incidence problems. Always change only one thing at a time. After each change, test fly to see what that change has affected. I would not change thrust line in any way, unless it has been modified. Then I would change it back to what it should be per the instructions. The thrust lines on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust lines would not affect the aircrafts flight characteristic as described unless you mounted the engine backwards. I would not try to trim the aircraft with flap(s). Aileron trim tabs are effective for slight roll problems, not the problems you all describe. I test flew the latest model MKIII Extra. It demonstrated similar characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was without a rudder trim tab. We installed the large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. These are my thoughts and experiences. It is the way I would do it. I am not recommending anyone else try this at home. John h Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:27 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Jimmy I am posting things on the Kolb e-mail list, but nobody seems to have a direct answer for why the airplane rolls one way and not another. I have three separate ideas for you to try, but I have not tested any of them. First, Use a digital level, measuring at three or four places on each wing, to make sure your airplane is not warped or built improperly. If one wing is twisted only a few degrees, it will answer half of these problems immediately. Tape or clamp the level onto a piece of aluminum angle or a straight edge that is 100% straight. Jack up the tailwheel until the airplane is level by their definition. Measure at the root rib on each side, two ribs on each wing in the middle, and the last tip rib. You are checking to see that ALL of these lines are exactly the same. Second, make 100% sure your airplane is rigged and adjusted to the factory specs. Get this information from Bryan Melbourne if you don't already have it. Basically, forget about anything that anyone else has done, and "zero out" the settings to whatever Kolb says they are supposed to be. Third, make a piece of tube or dowel that fits into or onto the control stick, that allows you to have another 6 or 8 inches of leverage. This can be temporary, but you definitely need to have more control avaiilable than you need to use. Fourth, actually measure and record how much each aileron twists when you move the stick and someone holds the tip of the aileron. What you are looking for is one aileron being more flexible than the other, or one aileron having something loose or cracked, etc. At that time, after you have proven the wings are not twisted, and all four control surfaces are where the factory says they should be,a nd nothing is weak or cracked... THEN go test fly the aircraft again. Test it on the main runway, before the control tower opens. Do short flights at 5 foot altitude, verify that the airplane flies straight and that you have no "pull" or roll to the right or left. You MUST prove to yourself (and your kids) that you have plenty of aileron control authority to roll right and left equally, BEFORE you let yourself get above 5 feet. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 6/12/17, jonealjr wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, June 12, 2017, 1:31 PM "jonealjr" PLEASE HELP IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH THIS :) I have a mark III classic w 912 uls Acting odd during taxi needs lots of left rudder to keep on the runway with tail on and off the ground and while flying needs lots of right stick to keep plane level. If you let go of the controls during straight and level flight the plane wants to roll to the left has anyone had similar experiences and or has anybody had any luck with adjusting engine mounts changing the thrust angle to help with aileron trim etc Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470012#470012 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:06 PM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Jimmy I agree with John H make sure the plane is built to specifications first. Bill I disagree 100%. Kolb airplanes never have control issues if they are built correctly. That being said they are built by builders of all skill levels. So to say it in a more technical way, shit happens. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:03 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > That is very helpful, thank you for taking time to respond. > > Over and above the potential causes and fixes for this, another thing I am > getting out of all this discussion is that significant aileron system > issues (control heaviness, asymmetrical loads and high required force) is > not seen as being rare or abnormal for a Kolb. > > As a suggestion, I will advise Jimmy O'Neal to find the original Kolb > rigging and control setup specifications and start by making sure that this > is all set back to the factory specs. That way he will know where he is > starting from. > > I will also advise him to make a proper series of measurements to > determine whether there is a warp, twist, or other "big picture" issue with > the aircraft. > > As far as resolving the high force to actuate the aileron system, does > anyone on the Kolb list know whether the aerobatic style "spades" that were > developed for one Kolb actually solved this problem? It seems like a lot of > effort and modification, but I also know that these spades do work (on > aerobatic aircraft and for a different intended purpose). > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me > Mark III clasic > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:45 PM > > Hauck" > > In my experience it was lack of an > adequate trim tab, if all else was rigged to specs and the > control system had not been changed or modified. > > The aircraft I was flying was much > easier to roll right than left. > > John h > mkIII > Fayetteville, NC > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:32 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange > Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic > > Bill Berle > > John H thank you for your reply, but I > am still left with a specific question: > > If you were test flying someone's Mk 3 > Classic, and you found that it was 2X or 3X as difficult to > roll the aircraft to the right as opposed to rolling it the > left, and if the roll rate to the right was 1/2 as fast as > the roll rate to the left, what would you suspect as the > cause of this condition? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety > & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - > winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck > wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange > Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:18 PM > > "John > Hauck" > > If the aircraft was mine and I had > all > those problems, I'd start from > scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had > not been modified (especially the control system), and > everything was rigged as specified in the plans and > instructions. I would insure I was starting my > journey from a standard beginning. > > Once I got it back to standard > configuration, then I would test fly > it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a > passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced > MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test > flying. He would know what to expect from the > MKIII in flight. > > If I still encountered the same > problems, I'd put the standard (large) > rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be > attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. > Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse > roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it > is aileron or wing incidence problems. > > Always change only one thing at a > time. After each change, test > fly to see what that change has affected. > > I would not change thrust line in any > way, unless it has been > modified. Then I would change it back to what it > should be per the instructions. The thrust lines > on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they > were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust > lines would not affect the aircrafts flight > characteristic as described unless you mounted the > engine backwards. > > I would not try to trim the aircraft > with flap(s). > > Aileron trim tabs are effective for > slight roll problems, not the problems > you all describe. > > I test flew the latest model MKIII > Extra. It demonstrated similar > characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was > allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. > Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell > of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, > but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was > without a rudder trim tab. We installed the > large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was > gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. > > These are my thoughts and > experiences. It is the way I > would do it. I am not recommending anyone else > try this at home. > > John h > Fayetteville, NC > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange > Flying characteristics of new to me > Mark III clasic > > Bill Berle > > One or more Kolbers has pointed to > the > flaps as a possible reason for the > problems we had. This may be the problem... does the > following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : > > Let's say that the airplane was not > built perfectly straight, and it > wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). > > One owner installed the "adjustable" > U-joint on one side of the fuselage on > this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that > way. > > The same owner, or perhaps a > subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing > flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve > the problem. > > But because the flaps are hinged > directly to the aileron torque tubes, > adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side > effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as > well. > > If one flap has been adjusted > downward > (attempt to trim airplane to fly > straight), then when the stick is moved in that > direction the pilot has to use more force, because the > pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream > more than he has to push the other flap. > > Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint > and replaced it with the standard > U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have > also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts > to trim the airplane. > > Does this make sense to any of you? > Have any of you seen Kolbs where the > owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a > wing issue? > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety > & performance upgrade for light > aircraft www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB > FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web > Site - > support! > > > -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic From: Charlie England On 6/13/2017 2:55 PM, Ralph B wrote: > > Along with the U-joints, there is also the offset fin. This was installed by the builder and I don't see how I would do without it. I've also included a picture of the adjustable rudder trim tab. Between the U-joints, offset fin, and rudder trim tab, the Kolbra can fly hands off in calm air. For pitch trim, the builder installed a motorized bungee windup to move the stick forward or aft. It is controlled with a toggle switch for nose up or down trim. > > Ralph B > > -------- > Ralph B > > Kolb Kolbra 912uls > N20386 > 550 hours Clever ideas, but a couple of questions. 1st, no safety wire on that turnbuckle? 2nd, what's to keep those little shackles on the horizontal stabs from going overcenter & moving the leading edge up instead of down? Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:04 PM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Jimmy We don't know your airplane so we can only guess what maybe the problem. You have our best suggestions..... Maybe it isn't the airplane? Bill may have some good suggestions but do not follow the 5 foot suggestion. Our Kolbs do not react well in this maneuver. I can't think of a better way to bend a perfectly good Kolb. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > Jimmy I am posting things on the Kolb e-mail list, but nobody seems to > have a direct answer for why the airplane rolls one way and not another. > > I have three separate ideas for you to try, but I have not tested any of > them. > > First, Use a digital level, measuring at three or four places on each > wing, to make sure your airplane is not warped or built improperly. If one > wing is twisted only a few degrees, it will answer half of these problems > immediately. Tape or clamp the level onto a piece of aluminum angle or a > straight edge that is 100% straight. Jack up the tailwheel until the > airplane is level by their definition. Measure at the root rib on each > side, two ribs on each wing in the middle, and the last tip rib. You are > checking to see that ALL of these lines are exactly the same. > > Second, make 100% sure your airplane is rigged and adjusted to the factory > specs. Get this information from Bryan Melbourne if you don't already have > it. Basically, forget about anything that anyone else has done, and "zero > out" the settings to whatever Kolb says they are supposed to be. > > Third, make a piece of tube or dowel that fits into or onto the control > stick, that allows you to have another 6 or 8 inches of leverage. This can > be temporary, but you definitely need to have more control avaiilable than > you need to use. > > Fourth, actually measure and record how much each aileron twists when you > move the stick and someone holds the tip of the aileron. What you are > looking for is one aileron being more flexible than the other, or one > aileron having something loose or cracked, etc. > > At that time, after you have proven the wings are not twisted, and all > four control surfaces are where the factory says they should be,a nd > nothing is weak or cracked... THEN go test fly the aircraft again. Test it > on the main runway, before the control tower opens. Do short flights at 5 > foot altitude, verify that the airplane flies straight and that you have no > "pull" or roll to the right or left. You MUST prove to yourself (and your > kids) that you have plenty of aileron control authority to roll right and > left equally, BEFORE you let yourself get above 5 feet. > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Mon, 6/12/17, jonealjr wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III > clasic > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Monday, June 12, 2017, 1:31 PM > > "jonealjr" > > PLEASE HELP IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE > WITH THIS :) > > I have a mark III classic w 912 uls > Acting odd during taxi needs lots of left rudder to keep on > the runway with tail on and off the ground and while flying > needs lots of right stick to keep plane level. If you let go > of the controls during straight and level flight the plane > wants to roll to the left has anyone had similar experiences > and or has anybody had any luck with adjusting engine mounts > changing the thrust angle to help with aileron trim etc > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470012#470012 > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:13 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic From: "Richard Pike" https://microsoft-powertoys-image-resizer.en.softonic.com/ -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470077#470077 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:17 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Kolbs were not designed for aerobatics and fast roll rates at higher speeds. Homer Kolb's idea of the epitome of flight was to fly slowly, just above the stall and just above the tree tops, to be in contact with the ground. His requirement was full aileron control right through the stall. In order to do this, Kolbs have very large ailerons. The Ultrastars and Firestars had full span deep cord ailerons just for that purpose. If one wants quick full aileron throw he must slow down. The faster the airspeed the heavier the aileron. At higher speeds, 80, 90, and higher, the MKIII is still very flyable, but you aren't going to move the ailerons very much very quickly. If you want faster roll rate, slow down. If one is flying fast, gets into severe turbulence, and think they need a lot of aileron input quickly, you ain't gonna get it. Slow down to a comfortable maneuvering speed and your bird will do exactly what you tell it to. You cannot be forceful. There is a lot of leverage in that control stick. If you force it, something might bend or break. At slower speeds my MKIII, and the other two Kolbs I built, will respond quite readily to aileron input. One can easily get full aileron travel. I once complained to Homer Kolb about the heavy ailerons. Homer told me to be gentle and the airplane would do what I wanted it to do. A gentle pilot, in my opinion, is a much better pilot than one that tries to force an airplane to respond. Again, my own opinion. Don't recommend anyone doing like I do, but it works for me. John h mkIII Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 7:03 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic That is very helpful, thank you for taking time to respond. Over and above the potential causes and fixes for this, another thing I am getting out of all this discussion is that significant aileron system issues (control heaviness, asymmetrical loads and high required force) is not seen as being rare or abnormal for a Kolb. As a suggestion, I will advise Jimmy O'Neal to find the original Kolb rigging and control setup specifications and start by making sure that this is all set back to the factory specs. That way he will know where he is starting from. I will also advise him to make a proper series of measurements to determine whether there is a warp, twist, or other "big picture" issue with the aircraft. As far as resolving the high force to actuate the aileron system, does anyone on the Kolb list know whether the aerobatic style "spades" that were developed for one Kolb actually solved this problem? It seems like a lot of effort and modification, but I also know that these spades do work (on aerobatic aircraft and for a different intended purpose). Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:45 PM Hauck" In my experience it was lack of an adequate trim tab, if all else was rigged to specs and the control system had not been changed or modified. The aircraft I was flying was much easier to roll right than left. John h mkIII Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 6:32 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle John H thank you for your reply, but I am still left with a specific question: If you were test flying someone's Mk 3 Classic, and you found that it was 2X or 3X as difficult to roll the aircraft to the right as opposed to rolling it the left, and if the roll rate to the right was 1/2 as fast as the roll rate to the left, what would you suspect as the cause of this condition? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 6/13/17, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2017, 3:18 PM "John Hauck" If the aircraft was mine and I had all those problems, I'd start from scratch, insure the aircraft was built correctly, had not been modified (especially the control system), and everything was rigged as specified in the plans and instructions. I would insure I was starting my journey from a standard beginning. Once I got it back to standard configuration, then I would test fly it, insuring I did the test flight alone, not with a passenger on board. If I wasn't an experienced MKIII pilot, I'd find one that was to do my test flying. He would know what to expect from the MKIII in flight. If I still encountered the same problems, I'd put the standard (large) rudder trim tab on temporarily. It can be attached with Gorilla Tape to test fly. Sometimes the rudder trim tab will correct adverse roll problems, when your mind is telling you that it is aileron or wing incidence problems. Always change only one thing at a time. After each change, test fly to see what that change has affected. I would not change thrust line in any way, unless it has been modified. Then I would change it back to what it should be per the instructions. The thrust lines on Kolb aircraft, all models, are correct the way they were designed and fabricated. Incorrect thrust lines would not affect the aircrafts flight characteristic as described unless you mounted the engine backwards. I would not try to trim the aircraft with flap(s). Aileron trim tabs are effective for slight roll problems, not the problems you all describe. I test flew the latest model MKIII Extra. It demonstrated similar characteristics. Wanted to fly straight if it was allowed to roll 10 to 15 degrees to the right. Was a terrible, unnatural feeling. Took a Hell of a lot of left stick to fly it straight and level, but was happy flying rolled right. This flight was without a rudder trim tab. We installed the large rudder trim tab, test flew, and the problem was gone. Hard for me to grasp, but it worked. These are my thoughts and experiences. It is the way I would do it. I am not recommending anyone else try this at home. John h Fayetteville, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 5:00 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic Bill Berle One or more Kolbers has pointed to the flaps as a possible reason for the problems we had. This may be the problem... does the following make sense to the experienced Kolbers??? : Let's say that the airplane was not built perfectly straight, and it wanted to roll one way (like many homebuilts). One owner installed the "adjustable" U-joint on one side of the fuselage on this aircraft, hoping to trim out the problem that way. The same owner, or perhaps a subsequent owner, tried to adjust one of the wing flaps a little more up or down, still trying to solve the problem. But because the flaps are hinged directly to the aileron torque tubes, adjusting the flap will have an unfortunate side effect of inducing different forces on the ailerons as well. If one flap has been adjusted downward (attempt to trim airplane to fly straight), then when the stick is moved in that direction the pilot has to use more force, because the pilot is pushing that FLAP down into the airstream more than he has to push the other flap. Jimmy removed the adjustable U-joint and replaced it with the standard U-joint, on advice from the factory. This may have also taken out HALF of the previous corrective efforts to trim the airplane. Does this make sense to any of you? Have any of you seen Kolbs where the owner tried to adjust the flaps in order to correct a wing issue? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:19 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Strange Flying characteristics of new to me Mark III clasic From: "Ralph B" Richard Pike wrote: > https://microsoft-powertoys-image-resizer.en.softonic.com/ Richard, I have a picture re-sizer but it didn't change the actual picture size, just the resolution. Matt should have a re-sizer built right into his program. do not archive Ralph B -------- Ralph B Kolb Kolbra 912uls N20386 550 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=470080#470080 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.