---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/11/17: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:48 AM - 2 stroke oil type? (Charlie England) 2. 05:51 AM - Re: Rotax 277 head (japowell) 3. 07:29 AM - Re: Rotax 277 head (Richard Pike) 4. 08:17 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (TheWanderingWench) 5. 08:28 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (Larry Cottrell) 6. 08:41 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? () 7. 10:41 AM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (Richard Girard) 8. 12:26 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (George Helton) 9. 01:34 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (Charlie England) 10. 02:42 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (George Helton) 11. 04:22 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (Charlie England) 12. 05:06 PM - video (Larry Cottrell) 13. 05:08 PM - Fw: video (Larry Cottrell) 14. 05:34 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? () 15. 07:04 PM - Re: 2 stroke oil type? (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:46 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). Thanks, Charlie ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:34 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 277 head From: "japowell" Don't have a head but curious about the 'fly'. How is it turning out, final weight and flying characteristics? Got mine in hanger doing final assembly and rigging. -------- Jim P WAR EAGLE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472776#472776 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Rotax 277 head From: "Richard Pike" Flies excellent. Climb rate is pretty good, somewhere between 5-700'/min, which is surprising given just a 277, but then it is light. Weight is between 260 and 262, we are hoping to get an A&P friend to weigh it soon on his scales and sign off the papers that certify that it qualifies for part 103. We have a hand deployed parachute that weighs 9 pounds, so using the 25 pound leeway the FAA gives you for a parachute, it will "legally" weigh 246 pounds & qualify for Part 103. Initially we had a lot of problems with vibration, have eliminated most of it, still trying to smooth it out some more. We replaced the rubber motor mounts with new ones ($ouch$) but can't tell any improvement in the vibration. Modified the muffler mounts once, will be modifying them again because we are still not completely satisfied with how they are working out. The muffler keeps wanting to hang crooked. If anyone has an old Fisher style muffler that has the long straight expansion cone, and you want to sell it, let me know. Or even just the expansion cone. Also be interested in buying one of those Balance Master mercury rings if someone has one of those for sale. Next step will probably be to add a third blade to the Ivoprop, that ought to help the vibration some. There is going to be a Fly-In at Greenville airport (GCY) this Saturday, we are planning to trailer it down there, put it together, fly it, and trailer it home, so that will be the first real test to see how well it does what we made it to do. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472779#472779 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:19 AM PST US From: TheWanderingWench Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? Charlie - Your question seems to come up on this - and other lists - every year or tw o. You'll get impassioned responses as any pilots seem to regard their choi ce of oil as sacrosanct. Personally, I used Penzoil Air-Cooled religiously for my 503 except when I was flying long cross countries, since it just wasn't easily available. So I'd drain all the Penzoil and switch to a TC-W3 oil. ANY TC-W3 oil - Walmar t, Auto Zone. it didn't seem to matter at all. Then Penzoil quit making the air-cooled, and I went to a 582, and I had dif ficulty getting the Shell oil that is now recommended - so I went to straig ht TC-W3 oil - again, regardless of brand. I've got over 1000 hours on 582s, and have only used TC-W3. No problems at all.HOWEVER - that's just my personal experience, and you can't extrapolate a conclusion from only one example. Good luck with your decision. Arty TrostSandy, Oregon =C2-www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm "Life's a daring adven ture or nothing" Helen Keller "I refuse to tip toe through life just to arr ive safely at death." From: Charlie England To: kolb-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 5:52 AM Subject: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM -CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itse lf TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes).=C2- I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 st roke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil . That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's t he opposite. So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I'v e got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, al cohol-free auto gas). Thanks, Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:28:29 AM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? I am afraid that I don't know what oil most are using on their engines ( since the demise of Pennzoil air cooled) but I will warn you that depending on the designation of TW3 to get the proper oil will get you the experience of a de- carbon within 30 days. Hopefully someone will pop up with the best soon. Just be aware that the local oil company will give you more carbon than you want. Larry On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: > I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, > and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. > The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either > ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call > itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and > air cooled 2 strokes). > > I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 > stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' > oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, > it's the opposite. > > So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? > I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, > alcohol-free auto gas). > > Thanks, > > Charlie > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:16 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? We had excellent results with a 503 and 582 burning Wal-mart Two Stroke TCW-3 oil by the gal. When a friend was ready to break in his 503 I gave him two gals of Wal-mart TCW-3 oil which had sat on a shelf at my hose for 15 to 20 years. He burned that, with 87 octane ethanol free gas, and many more gals before he finished his MKIII and powered it with the engine from John Williamson's Kolbra. The FS and 503 were sold to a local who has since flown the same engine with no problems. I don't have a 2 stroke powered airplane anymore, but burn Wal-mart TCW-3 in many two powered machines. You'll get all kinds of answers to the two stroke oil question. I think as long as the two stroke is run hard it will perform well with any two stroke oil. My own personal opinion and experience, of course. john h mkIII Rock House, Oregon ---- Charlie England wrote: > I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and > I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The > only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either > ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call > itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and > air cooled 2 strokes). > > I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 > stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' > oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, > it's the opposite. > > So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? > I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, > alcohol-free auto gas). > > Thanks, > > Charlie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:23 AM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? As you can see, the response about TC-W3 can be interesting. If you really want to get a response, take it to the Rotax forum. Regardless, there is one thing you need to know, NEVER EVER mix API-TC and TC-W3. Especially in oil injection systems. They coagulate when mixed. This isn't an urban myth, I asked the engineers at Shell Oil and they confirmed it. I don't know what happens when you mix them together with gasoline, but I don't do that with mine, either. Rick Girard On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:40 AM, wrote: > > We had excellent results with a 503 and 582 burning Wal-mart Two Stroke > TCW-3 oil by the gal. > > When a friend was ready to break in his 503 I gave him two gals of > Wal-mart TCW-3 oil which had sat on a shelf at my hose for 15 to 20 years .. > He burned that, with 87 octane ethanol free gas, and many more gals befor e > he finished his MKIII and powered it with the engine from John Williamson 's > Kolbra. The FS and 503 were sold to a local who has since flown the same > engine with no problems. > > I don't have a 2 stroke powered airplane anymore, but burn Wal-mart TCW-3 > in many two powered machines. > > You'll get all kinds of answers to the two stroke oil question. I think > as long as the two stroke is run hard it will perform well with any two > stroke oil. My own personal opinion and experience, of course. > > john h > mkIII > Rock House, Oregon > > > ---- Charlie England wrote: > > I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, > and > > I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. T he > > only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either > > ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to > call > > itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water > and > > air cooled 2 strokes). > > > > I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 > > stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natura l' > > oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, > > it's the opposite. > > > > So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? > > I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas > (premium, > > alcohol-free auto gas). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Charlie > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:36 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth. George H. Firestar, FS100, 1986 Mesick, Michigan Have a great day! > On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). > > I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. > > So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). > > Thanks, > > Charlie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? From: Charlie England Hi George, To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. :-) I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to. Charlie On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote: > > I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. > Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth. > George H. > Firestar, FS100, 1986 > Mesick, Michigan > > Have a great day! > >> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). >> >> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. >> >> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:14 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard. Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling... George H. Have a great day! > On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Hi George, > > To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. :-) > > I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to. > > Charlie > >> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote: >> >> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. >> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth. >> George H. >> Firestar, FS100, 1986 >> Mesick, Michigan >> >> Have a great day! >> >>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>> >>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). >>> >>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. >>> >>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Charlie > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? From: Charlie England I won't obsess over it; just didn't want to make an easily avoided mistake. Some of the W3 stuff actually says it meets TC specs too, so I can live (I hope) with that. This plane is dirt simple, even for a Kolb. No battery or starter, original point ignition, minimal instruments; just a before breakfast/after dinner flyer. I do appreciate everyone's insight. If any of us cross paths, I'd be happy to swap rides with you. Right/back seat in your Kolb for back seat in my RV (airborne version). Charlie If the 503 goes to lunch, there will probably be an electric motor in my future. I doubt I'll ever fly this thing more than 30 minutes, or leave sight of the runway, anyway. On 9/11/2017 4:40 PM, George Helton wrote: > > Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard. > Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling... > George H. > > Have a great day! > >> On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> >> Hi George, >> >> To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. :-) >> >> I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to. >> >> Charlie >> >>> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote: >>> >>> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. >>> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth. >>> George H. >>> Firestar, FS100, 1986 >>> Mesick, Michigan >>> >>> Have a great day! >>> >>>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). >>>> >>>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. >>>> >>>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Charlie >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:24 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Kolb-List: video We are right in the middle of our fly-in, and of course I am as busy as a one armed paper hanger, but I managed to squeeze out a video for those who could not attend. The smoke from all the fires that encircle us was pretty bad this year. It has cleared out now, but who knows how long that will last. The smoke cut into our airplanes flying here, and most people attended by driving. That however does not cut into the fun at all. Since I am so much in demand, the sound track on this one is way out of balance, due to my ability to "multi-task" or is it lack. I just didn't have the energy to redo the whole thing. when I found out that I had messed up. This video is of a geothermal hot spot about 40 miles west of us. Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:14 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Kolb-List: Fwd: video ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Larry Cottrell Subject: video See what I mean by distracted, sigh! We are right in the middle of our fly-in, and of course I am as busy as a one armed paper hanger, but I managed to squeeze out a video for those who could not attend. The smoke from all the fires that encircle us was pretty bad this year. It has cleared out now, but who knows how long that will last. The smoke cut into our airplanes flying here, and most people attended by driving. That however does not cut into the fun at all. Since I am so much in demand, the sound track on this one is way out of balance, due to my ability to "multi-task" or is it lack. I just didn't have the energy to redo the whole thing. when I found out that I had messed up. This video is of a geothermal hot spot about 40 miles west of us. https://vimeo.com/233384168 pass word owyheeflyer Larry -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:31 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: 2 stroke oil type? The old Rotax 2 cycle 2 cylinder engines use dual point ignition. Point dwell/point gap determines ign timing. Point rubbing blocks wear quicking on occasion, which in turn changes timing. Each cylinder timing is controlled by each set of points. Point ign's caused many engine failures in the old days prior to CDI. Most folks blamed the failures on oil, fuel mixture, spark plugs, etc. I put a lot of hours on my 447 point ign engines in a short period of time on extremely long distance flights for ultralights back in the 1980's. On flights from Alabama to NY I would have to adj points, sometimes replace because the rubbing blocks would wear excessively. On one flight to NY I had to replace both coils that had vibrated to the point of nearly falling out of their mounts. Growing up in the 1940s and 50s I remember most two stroke engines were run on whatever oil was available around the house and farm. Put a lot of miles on a Harley-Davidson 125cc two stroke motorcycle draining motor oil out of used cans and bottles at service stations. Same for outboard marine engines. john h mkIII Rock House, Oregon Early timing caused by point rubbing block wear caused a lot of burned pistons and engine failures. CDI on the newer engines was a blessing. ---- George Helton wrote: > > Charlie, you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure this stuff out. API-TC is the standard that I use for (TC) Two Cycle air cooled engines. API stands for American petroleum institute. W-3 (water cooled generation three) is a outboard motor manufacturers organization standard. > Who's right? Beats me!?? Like I said. I'd find a "Air Cooled" 2 cycle oil that you can readily obtain and works well in your engine and stay with it. Always take it easy on your engine for a couple of when changing brands. Most of the engine failures that I have seen over the years were the result of guys all switching to the latest and greatest. Beware of snake oil and unicorn ear wax. I'm smiling... > George H. > > Have a great day! > > > On Sep 11, 2017, at 4:36 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > > > > Hi George, > > > > To be honest, I didn't know there ever was a thing until I started reading on the interwebs. :-) > > > > I did know that at some point there was a difference between oil for water cooled vs air cooled two strokes, and that's what prompted the original message. There doesn't seem to be much info from the oil companies on what's different between API-TC & TC-W3. That makes it tempting to assume that the latter is an improved TC, but I try not to assume any more than I have to. > > > > Charlie > > > >> On 9/11/2017 2:00 PM, George Helton wrote: > >> > >> I thought the 2 stroke oil thing was over. But, it likes to come back from time to time. > >> Any quality "Air Cooled" oil is good. Most are synthetic blends these days. Rotax recommends AV-2. Which is good and available in gallons from Aircraft Spruce. That's just one of many sources. I use Lucas Air Cooled 2 cycle and it is really good. No carbon problems at all. It's also a blend. My little old original 377 loves the stuff. My experience has been find one you like and stick with it. Don't switch around all the time. Mix 50:1 in Rotax engines period. That's just My experience and opinion and we all know what that's worth. > >> George H. > >> Firestar, FS100, 1986 > >> Mesick, Michigan > >> > >> Have a great day! > >> > >>> On Sep 11, 2017, at 8:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: > >>> > >>> I'm getting ready to crank the restored Twinstar for the (my) 1st time, and I've been doing some reading on oil requirements for Rotax 2 strokes. The only thing I've been able to find in the Rotax manual is to use either ASTM-CEC or API-TC. The stuff I'm finding at local suppliers seems to call itself TC-W3, but says it's good for TC (says it's good for both water and air cooled 2 strokes). > >>> > >>> I also read a warning from one engine vendor saying to avoid synthetic 2 stroke oil, claiming that it would run off surfaces easier than 'natural' oil. That's a confusing statement to me, because in the 4 stroke world, it's the opposite. > >>> > >>> So, is any TC-W3 oil OK for an air cooled Rotax? What about synthetics? I've got 8 oz of Amsoil synthetic begging to be mixed with my gas (premium, alcohol-free auto gas). > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Charlie > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:15 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: 2 stroke oil type? From: "Richard Pike" Lots of good stuff on here. Perhaps the best advice was to find something you like and stick with it. Availability counts for a lot. I have been using Phillips Injex 2 stroke oil since 1983 with good results, it is a TC-W3 oil. One summer I used nothing but Pennzoil just to see if it made any difference. Seemed like there were a lot more oily carbon spots on the tail, but aside from that it worked good too. When you find what you like, buy it by the case, it keeps well. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough. Being forgiven is wonderful. 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