---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/06/17: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:21 AM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (George Helton) 2. 04:56 AM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (Robert Lobdell) 3. 08:12 AM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (Rex Rodebush) 4. 09:58 AM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (George Alexander) 5. 10:14 AM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (william sullivan) 6. 11:31 AM - Re: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (Charlie England) 7. 12:51 PM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (Stuart Harner) 8. 02:32 PM - Re: Quick build verses ready to fly (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:12 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Quick build verses ready to fly Robert, as a word of encouragement. To my knowledge, none of us were =9C builders=9D when we started our projects. One of the nice things about building a Kolb is you don=99t need fortune to get started. I=99 ve built two and I paid for the kits as I needed them. Kolbs take some time t o build, but it=99s a great experience. They don=99t require a l ot of special tools. Just time and patience. When they=99re complete y ou end up with a great little real airplane. I=99m still flying a Orig inal Firestar (1986) that took me and a buddy almost 2 years to build. Stil l flies great and I know what I=99m flying was well built. George Helton Firestar, 1986, 377 Rotax 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 5, 2017, at 9:32 PM, Robert Lobdell wrote: > > > I=99m not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it is nt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was r eally thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget e ven trying to buy a new machine? > Robert Lobdell > Waskom, Texas > > Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first! ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:14 AM PST US From: Robert Lobdell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Quick build verses ready to fly Thanks. You George. That is good to. Know. Robert Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first! > On Dec 6, 2017, at 6:20 AM, George Helton wrote: > > Robert, as a word of encouragement. To my knowledge, none of us were builders when we started our projects. One of the nice things about building a Kolb is you dont need fortune to get started. Ive built two and I paid for the kits as I needed them. Kolbs take some time to build, but its a great experience. They dont require a lot of special tools. Just time and patience. When theyre complete you end up with a great little real airplane. Im still flying a Original Firestar (1986) that took me and a buddy almost 2 years to build. Still flies great and I know what Im flying was well built. > > > George Helton > Firestar, 1986, 377 Rotax > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 5, 2017, at 9:32 PM, Robert Lobdell wrote: >> >> >> Im not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine? >> Robert Lobdell >> Waskom, Texas >> >> Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man. Landing is the first! > =================================== > =================================== > =================================== > =================================== > =================================== >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:12 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly From: "Rex Rodebush" Even with a quick build you are still going to put in a fairly large amount of time building; and it's going to cost more. Building my Xtra was a great experience but I would never do it again. You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476133#476133 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly From: "George Alexander" Rex Rodebush wrote: > , , , , S N I P , , , > > You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal. Unless you are fortunate enough to find an Experimental - Light Sport Aircraft, (E-LSA). In that case, you can take a 16 hour course, for a few hundred dollars, and do it yourself. -------- George Alexander FS II R503 N709FS http://www.oh2fly.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476181#476181 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:06 AM PST US From: william sullivan Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Quick build verses ready to fly Robert- The single most important thing about building, or doing a re-build, is to have enough room to do it. Very little is needed in terms of tools. Mostly a drill, a rivet gun, and a tape measure. Scissors! Cheap paint brushes! And lots of ventilation when you do the covering. The big thing is to be meticulous, and expect to make mistakes. Also, are you going ultralight (Part 103), LSA, or a little heavier? I'd locate some local Kolb owners, so you can see up close what they look like, and how they are built. last I knew, several Kolb builders had great web sites about the building and modifications of their Kolbs. Jack Hart had a great site, for super ultralight Firefly construction. Bill Sullivan -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12/5/17, Robert Lobdell wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Quick build verses ready to fly To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 9:32 PM Lobdell Im not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine? Robert Lobdell Waskom, Texas ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly From: Charlie England Small but significant correction to that. While you do need the signature of either the "repairman's certificate" holder or an A&P for the annual condition inspection, anyone, even a monkey or a random stray dog, can do any and all maintenance/repairs/modifications. As long as the dog can make his mark in the log book to sign off the work (or you can make yours, if you hire the dog), it's legal. Charlie (no Holiday Inn last night, but repairing/maintaining/modifying purchased homebuilts since 1992) On 12/6/2017 10:11 AM, Rex Rodebush wrote: > > Even with a quick build you are still going to put in a fairly large amount of time building; and it's going to cost more. > > Building my Xtra was a great experience but I would never do it again. You can buy a good used homebuilt now for a fraction of the cost of the kit alone. If I wanted another plane that's the way I would go. A major downside is that you will have to get an A&P or the previous builder to make modifications or do your annual to be legal. > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:26 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Quick build verses ready to fly Robert, First question to ask yourself is what type of flying do you intend to do? That will determine what size of Kolb you will want. If you want to go the Part 103 route, the Firefly is for you. The factory will do a ready to fly $$$$ (it will be built right and beautiful too). Next step down to $$$ would be the quick build kit. Factory rigged and nearly ready to cover. Then there is the next to lowest cost of the basic kit. Lowest cost is to buy a used aircraft. These two have a wide price range depending on age, hours, condition, etc. My choice was a quick build Firefly. I had some experience with covering and painting so that was not intimidating to me. Personal reasons for me were: I like making things but was not too sure about working with aluminum tubing (turns out it is easy) I didn't want to put in the extra time to make all the parts, I wanted to get flying. To me the price jump from basic kit to quick build was worth the time savings and peace of mind with factory rigging. But the price jump from quick built to ready to fly was not worth the extra $$ because I knew I could do the cover and paint. And I like doing that kind of stuff. I had a blast finishing the quick build kit. When I was done I had my own brand new airplane (er, air vehicle - Part 103) that has virtually no regulations on it. If something needs to be done, I don't have to look for someone else to work on it. :) If you like to make things and have more time than money, a kit is the way to go. If you would rather fly than build you have to decide how much you are willing to spend and then pick either a used flyable or a factory ready to fly. If you are not in a hurry watching the used market will definitely save some cash. When I decided to go with a Firefly there wasn't a used one listed anywhere. Read through the archives on this list, you will learn a lot of stuff no matter what you decide to do. If you are interested in seeing what it took to do my quick build, have a look here: http://harnerfarm.net/serenity/serenity.html If you get a chance to get to Oshkosh, you can learn all kinds of things in the workshops, including covering. That might help you make a decision about building. A trailer for storage is almost an afterthought. You can buy new or used that will be almost ready to use. You can build one from the axles up, or do a conversion. I bought a used 30' camper trailer and turned it into a toy hauler for the Firefly. Same formula, skills/time/money. Stuart Im not a builder but I might be able to do a quick build if it isnt to involved. I know nothing about building wings and covering. So, was really thinking of used or ready to fly new. I know new is really expensive. I figured even a firefly would cost close to 30k Then I would have to have a trailer built. So, can I save a significant amount of money on the Quick build over the ready to fly? Or should I just buy a used Kolb and forget even trying to buy a new machine? Robert Lobdell Waskom, Texas ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:40 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Quick build verses ready to fly From: "Richard Pike" Lots of good information on here, so I have only a little to add. Kolb wing, ailerons, and tail feathers have to be the easiest and simplest aircraft structures yet invented. When I bought my MKIII kit, the only quick build parts were the ribs: pre-made. Bought two used 36" interior doors, built a 14' long table out of 2x6's with the doors as the tops, and lag bolts in the bottoms of the table legs so I could keep it perfectly level. Made a full length shelf underneath to store stuff. Make yourself a handfull of 1"x 2" wood blocks with holes through them, use phillips head sheet metal screws to screw the blocks to the door over the full size plans that you'll draw out for the tail pieces. Block all the tubes in place, mark, cut to length. Lay them back over the plans between the locator blocks, rivet the gussets on, turn it over, rinse, repeat. Tail is done. Seriously, it really is that easy. Wings? Slide the ribs onto that big spar with everything laying on that long table. Measure, adjust, square it up, screw your little blocks down to keep the ribs in position, secure the leading & trailing edges tight in place with bungee straps. If the table is flat the wing will not be twisted. Start drilling holes and sticking in the clecoes. (Man's best friend) Started working on the first wing on my first day off, both of them were assembled when I went back to work. I was still working a 40 hour week when the MKIII kit arrived, 3 months later it was on the gear in the driveway and several friends were helping me rig it so we could drill the holes for the main spar clevis pins, and I'm not any better of a builder than average. (I did have prior home building experience) Took another 18 months to complete, but that's always the case: the last 10% of building the airplane takes 90% of your time. Do you like making stuff and are you handy with tools? Get a kit. Are you OCD and a perfectionist? Get something already built and tweak it, otherwise you'll spend years building when you could be flying. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and Grace really is amazing. 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