Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 PM - Ernest Kellogg Gann (Mike Welch)
2. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: 'Vertical' CG (LEE CREECH)
3. 05:19 PM - John Williamson (Kirkds)
4. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Stits (John Hauck)
5. 05:39 PM - Re: Arty Trost (N111KX (Kip))
6. 05:42 PM - Re: John Williamson (N111KX (Kip))
7. 05:58 PM - Re: John Williamson (Kirkds)
8. 05:41 PM - Re: Homer Kolb (Jim Hauck)
9. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (russ kinne)
10. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Brad Stump (robert bean)
11. 05:41 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Richard Pike)
12. 05:19 PM - Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos (Richard Girard)
13. 05:20 PM - Re: Incidence Angles (Jack B. Hart)
14. 05:38 PM - Re: Incidence Angles (Thom Riddle)
15. 05:14 AM - Enclosed Trailer (John Darke)
16. 05:18 AM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (SugarDad)
17. 05:23 AM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (John Darke)
18. 05:32 AM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (SugarDad)
19. 10:40 AM - Re: Hirth 3002 (kenw)
20. 04:11 PM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (Russ Kinne)
21. 06:26 PM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (John Darke)
22. 08:39 PM - Re: Enclosed Trailer (Rick Neilsen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Ernest Kellogg Gann |
Yes, Russ, as a matter of fact, it is worth mentioning. Thanks.
Since good ol' Ernest seems to be of significant interest to a few, I thought I'd
pass this little trivia along.
Ernest Gann, and his wife, purchased a 1961 green and white Cessna 310 (new).
Along the sides of the plane, near the cockpit, was the name "Noon Balloon".
Evidently Ernest liked sleeping in quite late, and was in fact, known for showing
up for morning appointments around noon, hence the name Noon Balloon.
He, and his wife, often flew this 310 around the world, and it played a part
in his adventures and stories.
Around 1993, a good flying buddy of mine, Sturl Brunnel, bought Gann's Cessna
310, and parked it next to my first Cessna 172 on the ramp of our local airport,
O45 (Nut Tree Airport, Vacaville, CA). I saw one day that Sturl had sold
the plane, and told me some guy living in Florida bought it.
I have flown in the Noon Balloon two times. A bunch of us Vacaville pilots used
to fly our planes to our near-by airports and get a burger. I hitched a ride
with Sturl a couple of times.
A few days ago, I did an Internet search to see what happened to the "Noon Balloon",
and there an article about a guy that now has it in the back of his hangar,
with plans to make it the "finest 310 in the world", he says. I saw that
he was located in Florida.
Best regards,
Mike Welch
MkIII
> From: russ@rkiphoto.com
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Earnest Kellogg Gann
> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:06:07 -0500
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
>
> Hey list, just a trifle, and probably not even worth mentioning --
> but I hate to see anyone mis-spelling a man's name, and repeatedly too.
> It's ERNEST Gann, (and ERNEST Hemingway too), not EARNEST -- No "A"
> Both very good writers, and they deserve to have their names spelled
> right.
> That's the least we can do.
> Russ Kinne
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 'Vertical' CG |
If I may add a humble point: the vertical CG affects the pitch axis=2C too
=2C doesn't it? I've always assumed that the high CG of my Firestar II (re
sulting mainly from the engine way up there) is a major factor in its tende
ncy to nose over if not handled carefully in some situations.
Lee
From: edchmiel@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 'Vertical' CG
Rick=2C
Please don't put words in my mouth. No one said 'categorically it
has no effect'. To an engineer=2C perhaps. To a pilot=2C it's a moot poin
t. Fore-and-aft CG change is of primary concern to aircraft=2C then latera
l=2C then last (and I would conjecture least) vertical. (We are still discu
ssing aircraft=2C not SUV's.) Never heard of an aircraft going out-of-contr
ol due to displaced vertical CG. You're correct in the engineering sense
=2C but waaay too concerned about something that's not even touched on in g
eneral aviation texts.
I will hand it to you=2C I could not detect the handling difference
in models of 172's=2C so perhaps 3=2C000 hrs. of dual given hasn't properl
y prepared me. Never had a check airman bring it up in the CFI=2C CFI-AI
=2C MEI=2C or ATP oral or checkrides. I should get my money back. And I m
ust've been sleeping through all the and initial and recurrent training at
FlightSafety Int'l. and SimCom in the Cessna 400-series=2C King Air 200=2C
300=2C 350=2C Merlin IIIB=2C Piper Cheyenne I & II=2C Citation I=2C II=2C V
=2C Bravo=2C obtained over 30-odd years and 15=2C000+ hours. The only ver
tical component available to me is the seat height=2C and my comfort trumps
the slight concern over handling effect. So vertical component is (A) nev
er discussed=2C (B) something we have little-to-no control over=2C and (C)
of concern in only the most arcane sense.
Vertical CG certainly exists=2C but is of concern when we have some
control over it. With my RC planes=2C I can move components to change it
=2C but in full-size aircraft it's fixed. If it's so windy that control be
comes a concern=2C I don't fly.
I'll respond BC in the future so's not to further bore our Kolb bro
thers and sisters.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Wednesday=2C March 11=2C 2009 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: 'Vertical' CG
Since the effect of having 300lb of fuel weight 7' above the roll center of
the aircraft (while on the ground the roll center is between the tires and
at the surface) was mentioned repeatedly to me by my instructor=2C and on
my check ride by the DPE=2C it seems I was meant to know about it and take
heed.
No=2C you won't find it in flight manuals=2C those decisions were made for
you by the designers and engineers and you can't change them like you can f
ore and aft weight changes in relation to the aerodynamic center.
By experience I can tell you that on the ground a "K" model 172 with long r
ange tanks handles differently in a crosswind than a "P" model with standar
d tanks (20 gallons and 120 lb. difference). The extra weight and the diffe
rence in landing gear track makes the "K" model more sensitive to gusts whi
le taxiing=2C even though there are no other differences between the aircra
ft. Yes=2C the extra mass has more inertia=2C but given that both aircraft
have the same size ailerons and the pilot has to have more force to stop th
e movement of the greater mass once it's started=2C the only way to get it
is more aileron deflection.
By analogy consider the roll characteristics of an Alfa Romeo Spider and a
GMC Yukon. What happens to either vehicle when they are hit by a 40 mph sid
e wind as when driving out of the wind shadow of a hedge row along side the
highway? Which has the more severe response?
Every object in an aircraft has a center of mass and a moment arm from the
roll=2C pitch and yaw axis. How those masses are arranged will effect the h
andling of the aircraft whether on the ground or in the air. Whether it is
critical to the aircraft depends on the aircraft's mission.
For instance=2C how many competetive aerobatic aircraft have you seen latel
y that are not a shoulder wing design? If you want fast roll response you p
ut the center of mass of the wings on the roll axis of the aircraft.
Now=2C the question is=2C does moving the fuel tank upward have an effect o
n the aircraft's ground handling?
Yes=2C you've changed the moment arm through which a mass acts.
Will you notice it?
I don't know.
Will it be critical?
I don't know.
I do know that to say categorically it has no effect is ridiculous on its f
ace.
Rick
On Wed=2C Mar 11=2C 2009 at 2:56 PM=2C Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel@mindspring.
com> wrote:
Hi Rick=2C
I've neither heard of 'vertical' CG=2C nor found anything in any ma
nuals. How would one calculate it=2C and where does this term come from?
CG is just that=2C a point around which the aircraft rotates in any axis. S
ome aircraft are more prone to being displaced during low-speed taxi=2C but
the most susceptible would have to be light weight coupled with lots of ex
posed surface area=2C which means a Kolb or other ultralight. Control displ
acement during taxi in a wind is the same for high- or low-wing aircraft=2C
but varies if nosedragger or conventional gear.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Wednesday=2C March 11=2C 2009 6:51 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Fjuel rtanks
John=2C While pilots rarely=2C if ever=2C calculate the vertical CG positio
n=2C it is a component of aircraft ground handling. This is one of the reas
ons why GA pilots=2C particularly those flying high wing aircraft with tank
s in the wings=2C are taught proper positioning of the controls during taxi
operations.
Rick
On Tue=2C Mar 10=2C 2009 at 7:58 PM=2C John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wr
ote:
I've wondered why you have
yours so high? It must reduce the power needed to get fuel to the engine
=2C but must also raise the CG. Are there any noticeable handling differen
ces between yours and a 'stock'
Mark III?
Russ
Russ:
My fuel tank is high because where it was located was empty=2C open space i
n the standard mkIII. 25 gals fits that space perfect. Homer left this sp
ace open to have 360 deg visibility. My neck won't twist that far around.
Getting fuel to the engine with less power had nothing to do with the locat
ion of the tank.
I don't understand "raising the CG". There are no noticeable handling diff
erences between my mkIII and a stock mkIII.
Location of the tank did not affect fore and aft=2C or lateral cg.
john h
mkIII
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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I haven't been on here in a couple of years. Used to go by snuffy. What happened
to John Williamson?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238836#238836
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Steve, in his 90's and his wife were flying back to OSH from Sun and
Fun. Somewhere over Tennessee, some fabric peeled off the aileron or
flap (I can not remember which), and the aircraft came apart in the air.
Come to find out, Steve had mixed different kinds of products and it
failed.
I tried to find some info on his accident, but to no avail. Any body
find it in the NTSB Accident Pages? I think it happened in 1994 or 95.
???
A little info on Steve:
http://www.air-racing-history.com/PILOTS/Steve%20Whittman.htm
john h
mkIII
John- What happened to Steve Whitman's aircraft?
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks,
Ct.
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I've been following on her excellent website.
Sounds like that old Carrera needed some work before the long trip...
--------
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238840#238840
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| Subject: | Re: John Williamson |
Sorry to be the bearer...
http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id 080530X00757&ntsbno=SEA08LA138&akey=1
He is missed...
--------
Kip
Firestar II, N111KX
Waiex, N111YX
Quickie 1, N111QX
Atlanta
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238842#238842
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| Subject: | Re: John Williamson |
:( So sorry to hear that.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238843#238843
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Homer was 78 years old. Would have been 79 in September.
Jim H
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M. Bilodeau
Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after
you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.
You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a few
seconds.
Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.
On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:
> <bilodeau.jean@sympatico.ca>
>
> Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the
> parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257359#257359
>
>
Message 10
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In my case the prop usually stops first :)
Then I utter the "aw s____ not again"
I suggest to new Kolb test pilots to do initial stall testing with
sufficient recovery space.
-better yet, learn how to fly it first.
BB
On 12, Aug 2009, at 8:18 PM, russ kinne wrote:
>
> M. Bilodeau
> Remember the prop would need a few seconds to stop rotating, after
> you pull the handle/kill switch and before the chute was deployed.
> You might very well NOT want to delay chute deployment, even by a
> few seconds.
> Your idea has merit but I doubt many pilots would want to install it.
>
>
> On Aug 12, 2009, at 5:51 PM, Jean Bilodeau wrote:
>
>> <bilodeau.jean@sympatico.ca>
>>
>> Does anyone know why there is no ignition kill switch in the
>> parachute handle? It does not seem to be that difficult to install.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=257359#257359
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
JetPilot wrote:
>
> Richard Pike wrote:
> >
> >
> > Recently looked at Beauford's Firefly and his VG setup, consequently will be
going to the little plastic triangular store bought VG's when we rebuild the
FSII as he has found them to work better than the homemade ones.
> >
> > Hope this helps -
> > Richard Pike
> > MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
>
> I have been posting the above information about VG's here on the list for the
last 3 years, telling people that they were critical in design and placement,
and to just spend the 100 dollars on ones that are designed properly and will
perform best, you just now figured this out ???
>
> Mike
Yes. I have been off the list for over a year, there's a lot I have missed. Besides,
talking one on one to Beauford carries a lot of credibility with me, and
based on what he said, I have changed my mind. Even old dogs sometimes learn
new tricks.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=262731#262731
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| Subject: | Re: Original Firestar Rebuild Photos |
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Eugene Zimmerman <etzimm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Beautiful plane.
> Very nice rebuild job. Workmanship looks great. Excellent modifications.
> Thanks for sharing your website picts.
>
> Gene Zimmerman
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2009, at 3:58 PM, joepilot503 wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been reading the forum for years and gathered alot of info from it.
>> I finally registered to the forum. I bought an original 5 rib Firestar in
>> June 2003. Thought I would share some photos of it. In 07 the throttle
>> cable kinked at the lever while taxiing and turning to line up on runway and
>> was stuck about 5000 rpm, ended up going into the trees before I was able to
>> kill it, tore the gear off. Anyway I decided to restore and customize it a
>> bit. Here is a link to my site if your interested
>> www.brianskolbfirestar.comlu.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267504#267504
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
From: russ kinne <russkinne@mac.com>
>
Thom
Interesting discussion about AOL's of HS & wing. But I wonder if the boom
tube of a Kolb in level flight is absolutely horizontal? Anyone have a good
picture of a Kolb in flight with the horizon behind
it?
>
Russ,
I checked the FireFly out with a AOA meter. At cruise the tail boom tube
would be 4.5 degrees up.
I have some photos that help but none with the horizon. The first is a
ground effect fly by at:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly87.html
Then there are several low level flight photos that were taken from the
ground at:
http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly137.html
If you click on the photos they will enlarge. It is difficult to judge from
these photos if the tail boom 4.5 degrees up, but it would be difficult to
say that it is not up 4.5 degrees too.
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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| Subject: | Re: Incidence Angles |
Jack,
If your tail boom is inclined 4.5 degrees up at the tail end during cruise that
means your nose rotates down about 6 degrees from 3-point and gives a cruise
wing AOA of 5 degrees, which is pretty close to cruise AOA of lots of airplanes,
and the HS AOA of about 3 degrees positive. Useful and interesting information.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x31
A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system
that works.
- John Gaule
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=267677#267677
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| Subject: | Enclosed Trailer |
Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could rent for
a week?
--
*John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950 - 941-676-0429*
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could rent
> for a week?
>
> --
> /*JohnDarke,72 Sabal Drive- Punta Gorda, FL 33950 -941-676-0429*/
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
Not W. VA John
On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:17 AM, SugarDad <herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
> Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
>
> On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
>
> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could rent for
> a week?
>
> --
> *John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950 - 941-676-0429
> <(941)%20676-0429>*
>
>
--
*John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950 - 941-676-0429*
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
Heck of a deal for someone in Elkins......and no ...I do not get a
commission....:-) Herb
On 12/09/2017 07:23 AM, John Darke wrote:
> Not W. VA John
>
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:17 AM, SugarDad <herbgh@nctc.com
> <mailto:herbgh@nctc.com>> wrote:
>
> Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
>
>
> On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
>> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could
>> rent for a week?
>>
>> --
>> /*JohnDarke,72 Sabal Drive- Punta Gorda, FL 33950 -
>> 941-676-0429 <tel:%28941%29%20676-0429>*/
>
>
> --
> /*JohnDarke,72 Sabal Drive- Punta Gorda, FL 33950 -941-676-0429*/
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Thanks for the reply !
2 strokes certainly need an experienced operator & they can be long term performers.
--------
kenw
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476273#476273
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
JOHN DARKE
I HAVE ONE.IN MAINEWANNA DRIVE UP HERE FOR IT??
RUSS K
> On Dec 9, 2017, at 8:17 AM, SugarDad <herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
> Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
>
> On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
>> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could
rent for a week?
>>
>> --
>> John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950 - 941-676-0429
>
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
That's a bit of a stretch, Russ but it is a possibility. Is the trailer
set up for a Kolb?
On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com> wrote:
> JOHN DARKE
> I HAVE ONE.IN MAINEWANNA DRIVE UP HERE FOR IT??
> RUSS K
>
> On Dec 9, 2017, at 8:17 AM, SugarDad <herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>
> Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
>
> On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
>
> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could rent fo
r
> a week?
>
> --
> *John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72%0D+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+33
950+-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>- 941-676-0429
> <(941)%20676-0429>*
>
>
--
*John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950 - 941-676-0429*
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Enclosed Trailer |
On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 7:27 PM John Darke <jbdarke@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's a bit of a stretch, Russ but it is a possibility. Is the trailer
> set up for a Kolb?
>
> On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 7:09 PM, Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> JOHN DARKE
>> I HAVE ONE.IN MAINEWANNA DRIVE UP HERE FOR IT??
>> RUSS K
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2017, at 8:17 AM, SugarDad <herbgh@nctc.com> wrote:
>>
>> Going to W.Va. ?? :-) Herb
>>
>> On 12/09/2017 07:13 AM, John Darke wrote:
>>
>> Anyone have an enclosed trailer for a Kolb Mark III that we could rent
>> for a week?
>>
>> --
>> *John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72%0D+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+3
3950+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3D72%250D%2BSabal%2BDrive%25C2%25A0-%2BP
unta%2BGorda,%2BFL%2B33950%2B-%25C2%25A0941%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E
-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>-
>> Punta Gorda, FL 33950
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72%0D+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+3
3950+-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>-
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72%0D+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+3
3950+%3Chttps://maps.google.com/?q%3D72%250D%2BSabal%2BDrive%25C2%25A0-%2BP
unta%2BGorda,%2BFL%2B33950%2B-%25C2%25A0941%26entry%3Dgmail%26source%3Dg%3E
-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>941-676-0429
>> <(941)%20676-0429>*
>>
>>
>> John
>>
> I have one all set up for a MKlll but it is in Michigan and you would hav
e
to wait till April. I=99m just north of you in Venice FL for the wint
er.
Rick Neilsen
redrive VW MKlll
>
>
> --
> *John Darke, 72 Sabal Drive - Punta Gorda, FL 33950
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+33950
+-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>- 941
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=72+Sabal+Drive%C2%A0-+Punta+Gorda,+FL+33950
+-%C2%A0941&entry=gmail&source=g>-676-0429*
>
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