---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/30/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:57 AM - Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (racerjerry) 2. 05:25 AM - Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (Stuart Harner) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (John Hauck) 4. 06:25 AM - Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (John Hauck) 5. 06:37 AM - Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (Dan Breitigam) 6. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... (John Hauck) 7. 06:03 PM - Re: Wing structure upgrades (k3x) 8. 06:50 PM - Sheathing for wires in the wing... (Nick Cassara) 9. 09:10 PM - Re: Wing structure upgrades (Frankd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:57:28 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... From: "racerjerry" I thought about fuel pumps for transferring gas, but quickly discovered an easier system. Anyone ever heard of a siphon? Now I don't like to get a mouthful of gas either, but with some thought beforehand, tasting gas isn't necessary. I use older Rubbermaid 5 gallon gas cans. Lift and rest the can on wing or ladder to a height of at least the height of the gas tank filler opening . Insert clear plastic tubing to the bottom of the gas can with other end into the airplane fuel tank. With any vent on the gas can closed, wrap thumb and first finger around tubing at gas can neck, creating a semi-seal and leaving just enough space to place your lips to blow into can to start gas flow. When I see the gas can is near empty, I start tilting it point the tubing onto one corner to completely empty the can. Works every time with no gas tasting. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478932#478932 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:49 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That is a good point. Sparks and vapors = bad things. In the case of the Faucet style the pump and wiring is located outside of the gas can. You would have to drop a pickup tube/hose into the can. The most likely place for a spark to occur would be at the battery connection. If a switch were used, a sealed one would be best. In an open air situation unless the spark was fairly close to the open can or tank this is probably not too much of a concern, but caution is always advised. In my situation I like the battery operated pump because I don=99t have to mess with wires and just the one hose. For fueling the Firefly, it is much easier with the wings folded so I fuel up before doing anything else. At the gas station I put exactly 5 gal. in my 6 gal. can(s). As soon as I get to the hangar I add Sta-Bil to each new batch, even if I intend to use it right away. Next, is the only messy part of the operation. I have to take the TeraPump out of the mix can put it somewhere clean. Pour a gallon or two into the mix can, then add my 2-stroke oil. Use a little fresh gas to rinse the measuring cup and make sure that all the oil gets into the gas, putting the rinse into the mix can. Shake slightly, then pour the rest of the fresh gas into the mix can. Replace TeraPump. Agitate again, just to make sure. Then set the mix can and pump on something (plastic spool, chair, etc) close enough to reach the tank with the hose. Clip the hose to the tank and hit the start button. In a couple of minutes the tank is full and there is no spilled fuel. While the pump is running I do my preflight inspection of the engine, mounts, fuel and electrical system because it is so much easier to get a good look while the wings are folded and I am standing there anyway. I don=99t have to watch the fuel flow as the pump will shut itself off when the tank is about an inch from being full. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 10:55 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... Do give it some thought before rolling your own gas pump. The little AA powered ones get away with it by using such a low voltage that it can't make a strong enough spark to light the gas. Not much risk inside the tank anyway (too rich), but a 12v battery and a switch outside the tank deserves respect when used to pump gas. Charlie On Mar 29, 2018, at 10:58 PM, Stuart Harner wrote: I don=99t think the pump will push more than a foot or two of head pressure. My little stand makes it nearly level with the tank, but if it is lower, the flow rate sure slows down. Pretty sure the motor works on only 3 volts as it will run on only two AA=99s. The second two batteries just give it more amps. I use rechargeable batteries and have never had to recharge them during the summer. Of course, I don=99t fly as much or use as much fuel as most people. Since I had the batteries and charger for other devices it is no big deal to just swap them out when they get low. I have been thinking about making a transfer pump for diesel for my little tractor. A Faucet style 12v. pump with 5/16=9D fittings should provide enough flow to fill my little 4 gallon tank in a couple of minutes. Might work for your airplane too. Since you have a ready 12v. power supply right there. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That sounds pretty darn neat. Fueling the MKIII ain't like it used to be. I could use something like that, but I have to pump all the way to the top of the wing. That little pump might be grunting to push fuel that high. Wonder if you could get a transformer that equates to 4 AA bats? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 6:09 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That is a pretty good solution, but for fueling without holding the can up in the air I went with a battery operated pump. Look on Amazon or your favorite shopping site for a TerraPump. The one I have was about $40. Runs on 2 or 4 AA batteries. Has adaptors to fit many brands of gas cans. The pump goes down in the can and will reach the bottom of my 6 gallon Rubbermaid ones. It has a fuel sensor that will shut the pump off when the tank gets full. The pump won=99t lift fuel very far but on a nearly level transfer on 3 good batteries it will move 5 gallons in 2.5 minutes and not spill a drop. For filling my Firefly I have an old plastic spool that when stood on end is just the right height to set the can with the pump on. Then put the hose in the fuel tank (it clips right on) and hit the start button. It will run until the tank is full , the auto shut off. I will try and remember to take some pictures next time I am fueling. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... I came up with a simple fix to fuel my mkiii. I made an extension to fit my gas can nozzle. With the 5 gal gas can on the ground the extension will go to the bottom of my 16 gal alum tank. I lift the fuel can to my shoulder, grab an exposed alum hinge to eliminate static. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:19 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... I'm using a siphon hose now, and have been for a long time. However, it is a shaker hose, copper fitting with a glass marble inside to act as a one way valve. Do like Jerry K does up to a point. Instead of blowing into the tank, I shake the business end of the hose up and down in the gas can. This pumps fuel up the hose until it starts to siphon. In 1994, I landed at Turlock, CA, on my way to Dead Horse, Alaska. Bill Fletcher had an ultralight operation at the airport. Before I departed he gave me my first siphon hose. I had never seen one before. Carried it with me that flight and still use it. Thought I had lost it for several years. One day I discovered it hanging in a tractor shed where I had placed it after gassing up an old tractor. Now I have two because I bought a replacement off the internet. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of racerjerry Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:57 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... I thought about fuel pumps for transferring gas, but quickly discovered an easier system. Anyone ever heard of a siphon? Now I don't like to get a mouthful of gas either, but with some thought beforehand, tasting gas isn't necessary. I use older Rubbermaid 5 gallon gas cans. Lift and rest the can on wing or ladder to a height of at least the height of the gas tank filler opening . Insert clear plastic tubing to the bottom of the gas can with other end into the airplane fuel tank. With any vent on the gas can closed, wrap thumb and first finger around tubing at gas can neck, creating a semi-seal and leaving just enough space to place your lips to blow into can to start gas flow. When I see the gas can is near empty, I start tilting it point the tubing onto one corner to completely empty the can. Works every time with no gas tasting. -------- Jerry King Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478932#478932 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:49 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... Would it not be easier to put the Stabil and two stroke oil in the gas can before buying fuel? Save a few operations maybe. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 7:26 AM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That is a good point. Sparks and vapors = bad things. In the case of the Faucet style the pump and wiring is located outside of the gas can. You would have to drop a pickup tube/hose into the can. The most likely place for a spark to occur would be at the battery connection. If a switch were used, a sealed one would be best. In an open air situation unless the spark was fairly close to the open can or tank this is probably not too much of a concern, but caution is always advised. In my situation I like the battery operated pump because I don=99t have to mess with wires and just the one hose. For fueling the Firefly, it is much easier with the wings folded so I fuel up before doing anything else. At the gas station I put exactly 5 gal. in my 6 gal. can(s). As soon as I get to the hangar I add Sta-Bil to each new batch, even if I intend to use it right away. Next, is the only messy part of the operation. I have to take the TeraPump out of the mix can put it somewhere clean. Pour a gallon or two into the mix can, then add my 2-stroke oil. Use a little fresh gas to rinse the measuring cup and make sure that all the oil gets into the gas, putting the rinse into the mix can. Shake slightly, then pour the rest of the fresh gas into the mix can. Replace TeraPump. Agitate again, just to make sure. Then set the mix can and pump on something (plastic spool, chair, etc) close enough to reach the tank with the hose. Clip the hose to the tank and hit the start button. In a couple of minutes the tank is full and there is no spilled fuel. While the pump is running I do my preflight inspection of the engine, mounts, fuel and electrical system because it is so much easier to get a good look while the wings are folded and I am standing there anyway. I don=99t have to watch the fuel flow as the pump will shut itself off when the tank is about an inch from being full. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 10:55 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... Do give it some thought before rolling your own gas pump. The little AA powered ones get away with it by using such a low voltage that it can't make a strong enough spark to light the gas. Not much risk inside the tank anyway (too rich), but a 12v battery and a switch outside the tank deserves respect when used to pump gas. Charlie On Mar 29, 2018, at 10:58 PM, Stuart Harner wrote: I don=99t think the pump will push more than a foot or two of head pressure. My little stand makes it nearly level with the tank, but if it is lower, the flow rate sure slows down. Pretty sure the motor works on only 3 volts as it will run on only two AA=99s. The second two batteries just give it more amps. I use rechargeable batteries and have never had to recharge them during the summer. Of course, I don=99t fly as much or use as much fuel as most people. Since I had the batteries and charger for other devices it is no big deal to just swap them out when they get low. I have been thinking about making a transfer pump for diesel for my little tractor. A Faucet style 12v. pump with 5/16=9D fittings should provide enough flow to fill my little 4 gallon tank in a couple of minutes. Might work for your airplane too. Since you have a ready 12v. power supply right there. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 8:13 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That sounds pretty darn neat. Fueling the MKIII ain't like it used to be. I could use something like that, but I have to pump all the way to the top of the wing. That little pump might be grunting to push fuel that high. Wonder if you could get a transformer that equates to 4 AA bats? john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 6:09 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... That is a pretty good solution, but for fueling without holding the can up in the air I went with a battery operated pump. Look on Amazon or your favorite shopping site for a TerraPump. The one I have was about $40. Runs on 2 or 4 AA batteries. Has adaptors to fit many brands of gas cans. The pump goes down in the can and will reach the bottom of my 6 gallon Rubbermaid ones. It has a fuel sensor that will shut the pump off when the tank gets full. The pump won=99t lift fuel very far but on a nearly level transfer on 3 good batteries it will move 5 gallons in 2.5 minutes and not spill a drop. For filling my Firefly I have an old plastic spool that when stood on end is just the right height to set the can with the pump on. Then put the hose in the fuel tank (it clips right on) and hit the start button. It will run until the tank is full , the auto shut off. I will try and remember to take some pictures next time I am fueling. Stuart From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of B Young Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... I came up with a simple fix to fuel my mkiii. I made an extension to fit my gas can nozzle. With the 5 gal gas can on the ground the extension will go to the bottom of my 16 gal alum tank. I lift the fuel can to my shoulder, grab an exposed alum hinge to eliminate static. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:22 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... From: "Dan Breitigam" John, I believe that would be John Fletcher at Turlock, CA. Hes my hero because he taught me to fly. Thanks for the mention. That was back in the day of fat ultralights and it seemed that airpark was chock full of flyers. Hardly room to hangar your bird. Now its a ghost strip. -------- Dan Breitigam Kolb Mk III Xtra Geo Metro 1.3L Chattanooga Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478937#478937 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:06 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... Thanks for the correction, Dan B. Memory played tricks on me. Had John's business card on my frig door for years, until recently when I tried to tidy things up around here. John Fletcher was a class act. That era is gone now. Thought it would never end. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Breitigam Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 8:37 AM Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Mk3 Xtra Fuel Tank Install.... John, I believe that would be John Fletcher at Turlock, CA. Hes my hero because he taught me to fly. Thanks for the mention. That was back in the day of fat ultralights and it seemed that airpark was chock full of flyers. Hardly room to hangar your bird. Now its a ghost strip. -------- Dan Breitigam Kolb Mk III Xtra Geo Metro 1.3L Chattanooga Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478937#478937 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:11 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing structure upgrades From: "k3x" Late start so only finished one wing..... am somewhat tentative in posting todays photos as the signature "hungry horse" leading edges may be a touchy topic to purists. Formed leading edges probably make no difference..... except in weight (4.7 lbs each) .... so please consider these a cosmetic indulgence. Comparing the rigidity in column between the two made me glad I indulged. Mike C Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478941#478941 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02138_112.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02137_728.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc02136_932.jpg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:46 PM PST US From: Nick Cassara Subject: Kolb-List: Sheathing for wires in the wing... Kolbers, When I built my wings, I used air brake hose from NAPA. The hose is light weight, very tough and has a smooth inner surface that make threading wire very easy. For what it is worth. Nick Cassara Palmer, Alaska Kolbra 607AK ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:36 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Wing structure upgrades From: "Frankd" Hello Mike C, I have a MkIII Xtra and am watching your progress. The mods look nice and certainly will add alot of strength. Good on ya, mate. BUT... I fly with a Jabiru engine of 85Hp and when I take a passenger its a little underpowered and every single pound does matter,, I have actually limited my passenger weight to 200Lbs for safety, you lose some elevator authority on landing with such a forward CG and I sometime wish I could have saved a few LBs here and there. Now, obviously, how your Kolb performs will depend on the engine you choose and how your CG ends up. I wish you well in your final choice. One other thing was I built exactly to the plans and I have never found any issue with the design where I wished it was better.. its very strong in the wing bow area and has never given me an issue. One tip I would give you is to put 200 lbs of sandbags in the passenger seat the first time you think of taking a passenger.. Its an eye-opening experience but will give you the feel of what to expect. best wishes and fun flying. FrankD N1014S, MkIIIXtra. 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