Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:16 AM - primer bulb quality (Charlie England)
2. 06:32 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Girard)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Charlie England)
4. 06:56 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck)
5. 07:14 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (B Young)
6. 07:35 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (George Helton)
7. 09:01 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Pike)
8. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: primer bulb quality (Jack)
9. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (Rick Neilsen)
10. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (Bill Berle)
11. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (George Helton)
12. 11:42 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck)
13. 11:44 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck)
14. 12:12 PM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Girard)
15. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (mojavjoe)
16. 07:04 PM - Re: High Thrust Line Question (Richard Pike)
Message 1
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Subject: | primer bulb quality |
I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC,
it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple
of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through
it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This
morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bulb.
The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way
through.
Here's the link to avoid:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line?
Thanks,
Charlie
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after
take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twelve
years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Even
the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk.
If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the
surest, safest way to go.
Rick Girard
On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project.
IIRC,
> it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple
> of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through
> it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This
> morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bul
b.
> The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the w
ay
> through.
>
> Here's the link to avoid:
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_
> detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm
_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
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>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
Unfortunately, no battery. But I may have to re-think that.....
On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com> wrote
:
> After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after
> take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twel
ve
> years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Eve
n
> the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk.
> If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the
> surest, safest way to go.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project
. IIRC,
>> it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a coupl
e
>> of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through
>> it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This
>> morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bu
lb.
>> The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the
way
>> through.
>>
>> Here's the link to avoid:
>> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_de
>> tailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>> Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&ut
m_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
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4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
>
> --
> =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.
=9D Groucho Marx
> <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | primer bulb quality |
Haven't used a primer bulb since my Firestar days, with no battery.
When I built the MKIII, the primer bulb was replaced with a Facet fuel
pump.
Primer bulbs are famous for failing, on the ground and in the air.
1997, while on a flight in the Firestar from Alabama to Miami, I had an
engine failure over Sebring, FL. Only place to go was the football
stadium at Sebring High School. I made it into that tiny spot and got
stopped. The Lord was with me that day. No brakes installed on the
Firestar at that time. The primer bulb stopped passing fuel and the
pulse pump pulled it flat.
If I was going to run a primer bulb I would spend the dollars and buy a
name brand, i.e., Honda, Mercury, etc. I like Honda. Had one on a 90
Honda outboard that was very old. When I sold the boat it was still in
good shape. The price will scare you when you go to buy a replacement.
Usually, in my experience, it's the little things that bring you down
more than catastrophic failures. Murphy is always lurking, waiting to
do his dirty deeds.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie
England
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 8:15 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality
I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar
project. IIRC, it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only
been used a couple of times since installation. I've run less than 3
gallons of gas through it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with
two stroke oil. This morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the
tank, under the primer bulb. The bulb has completely dry rotted, with
one end cracked almost all the way through.
Here's the link to avoid:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o0
8_s04?ie=UTF8
<https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o
08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1> &psc=1
Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line?
Thanks,
Charlie
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Message 5
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
You could check a boat shop.
I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea
how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years,
and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat.
Boyd Young
> <#m_-6390720489743258610_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don
=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery t
hat charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circu
it to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It
=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experienc
e.
I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains t
he same.
George Helton
1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could check a boat shop.
>
> I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea
how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, a
nd was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat.
>
> Boyd Young
>
>>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
Facet is the way to go, unless you don't have an electrical system. But even w/o
an electrical system, you don' need no steekeen primer bulb...
Hard plumb the system as much as possible. Good quality rubber fuel line from the
tank to the aluminum fuel line, run that aluminum tubing all the way to the
fuel pulse pump. Run clear urethane line (so you can see the fuel going through
it) from the fuel pump to the carb and replace it annually.
Solder a piece of brass tubing to a brass washer and used a rubber grommet to make
a fairly airtight connection to the tank; this is your vent opening. Get a
long enough length of model airplane fuel tubing to fit snugly over the brass
tube and reach to the side of the fuselage.
To prime the engine, blow into the model airplane fuel line until you see the gas
start to flow out of the pulse pump toward the carb. Now pinch off the model
airplane fuel line and hold it for a minute until the float bowl has time to
fill. Walk around to the engine side and verify that the fuel line is full, if
the fuel line is full, probably your float bowl is too.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480071#480071
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
On 5/11/2018 12:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote:
>
> i used to pull the vent line up and just blow in it putting pressure in the fuel
tank forceing the fuel up to the carbs. Worked for me. Only drawback you
probably introduce a little moisture from your breath into the tank. I now have
a plunger primer.
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: High Thrust Line Question |
Bill
I can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch
prop with 7=9D clearance, 1=9D clearance, a 60=9D prop tu
rning 3200 rpm and 72=9D
at 2000 rpm.
With a 72=9D prop and 7=9D clearance one person operation was f
ine but with two
I would run out of up elevator at full power.
The 60=9D prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three bla
de 2000
rpm 72=9D prop gives twice the thrust.
If you can fit a 70-74=9D prop depending on prop recommendations with
close
to 1=9D clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop c
learance
the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change.
You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIII
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote
:
>
> The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So
> unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place.
>
> BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions.
> After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy
> engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on wi
th
> one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before foldi
ng
> the wings.
>
> The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or
> Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat
> (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable
> tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques
.
>
> This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the
> Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is
> plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to
> use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also
> provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign
to
> torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter
> Pins, etc.
>
> All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop
> with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom
.
>
> The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making
> fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project
:)
>
> The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other
> Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this
> engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just
> make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM
>
> Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> Bill, I know that this might sound
> crazy but, can=99t you just buy a different set of gears for
> the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I
> can=99t imagine that HKS can=99t supply replacement parts.
> The gearbox case doesn=99t care what gears fit inside of it.
>
> If they don=99t, I=99d sure shy away
> from buying one.
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > I have been pulling out what's
> left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to
> quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission
> well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability.
> I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot
> afford to change it.
> >
> > What I have learned thus far is:
> >
> > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really
> wants to swing a larger propeller than what is
> actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line
> on the Kolb airframe.
> >
> > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards
> will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a
> thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is
> advisable.
> >
> > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5
> blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line
> problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.
> >
> > I have considered many possible
> solutions or "work-arounds" :
> >
> > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and
> remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the
> problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and
> effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the
> "solutions".
> >
> > 2) Remove the wings after every
> flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade
> propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to
> build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be
> removed and installed by myself alone.
> >
> > 3) Make a folding propeller, like
> the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold
> rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground
> equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller
> will be prohibitvely expensive.
> >
> > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.
> This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford
> it.
> >
> > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,
> install the right propeller, and live with the possibly
> dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.
> >
> > Any other/better/wiser/workable
> ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill Berle
> > www.ezflaphandle.com -
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> > www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------
> > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
> <gdhelton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High
> Thrust Line Question
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39
> AM
> >
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
> by: George
> > Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
> >
> > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up
> the
> > topic. I replaced my little Rotax
> 377 with new low rpm Hirth
> > 2702 over the winter. I really
> hadn=99t measured the
> > distance between the prop hub and
> boom tube. You sparked my
> > interest so I stopped by my hanger
> this morning to check it
> > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox
> with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
> > which translates to 2400 rpm prop
> speed @ the engine=99s
> > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.
> > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.
> This
> > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I
> did have to move the
> > engine forward 2.625=9D to
> compensate for the extra weight
> > of the new gear box. I went with a
> 64=9D 3 blade Powerfin
> > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.
> This setup gives me 3.5=9D
> > of clearance from the boom tube.
> Thanks for inspiring me to
> > check it out. I=99m sure
> there is a good combination
> > of prop out there for an HKS.
> > George Helton
> > 1986 Firestar, FS100
> > 14GDH
> > Mesick, Michigan
> > gdhelton@gmail.com
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,
> Bill
> > Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
> posted
> > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> >>
> >> Everybody THANK YOU for
> taking
> > time for this discussion.
> >>
> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory
> today
> > by phone, and went out to the
> local UL flying field to see
> > an HKS engine run.
> >>
> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were
> asked
> > one specific question by me:
> What is the maximum
> > number of inches allowable or
> advisable between the center
> > of the propeller and the top of
> the tailboom?
> >>
> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is
> about
> > standard for a "normal" Firestar,
> and he would not want to
> > fly an airplane with that distance
> raised to 39 or 40
> > inches.
> >>
> >> I went back to my hangar and
> > measured, and the distance on my
> Firestar would be over 40
> > or 41 inches if I turned the
> gearbox upward. So if the Kolb
> > factory owner says 40 inches is
> too high, I can only be
> > humble and assume that I wouldn't
> want to fly it at 40
> > inches either. If any of the
> highly experienced Kolbers on
> > this forum are flying with their
> thrust line 40 inches above
> > the tailboom, I REALLY would like
> to know about it pronto.
> >>
> >> As big of an ego as I have had
> a
> > few times in my life, and as much
> as I think of myself as a
> > reasonably skilled pilot, I
> don't need to be a test
> > pilot here and try to push any
> envelope at this early stage.
> > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a
> favor... if any of you are
> > flying a Firestar with the engine
> thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
> > incvhes above the tailboom please
> post this on the list and
> > let me know ifyou have any issues
> with the handling,
> > pitch-over, etc.
> >>
> >> Bill Berle
> >> www.ezflaphandle.com -
> > safety & performance upgrade
> for light aircraft
> >> www.grantstar.net
> > -
> winning proposals for non-profit and
> > for-profit entities
> >>
> >>
> >
> --------------------------------------------
> >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike
> > <thegreybaron@charter.net>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High
> > Thrust Line Question
> >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,
> 4:38
> > PM
> >>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
> posted
> > by: "Richard
> >> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
> >>
> >> Bill; notice the extent to
> which
> > Rick
> >> raised his engine. (Great
> > pictures) Maybe you can leave the
> >> gearbox down and raise the
> engine
> > up?
> >>
> >> --------
> >> Richard Pike
> >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
> >>
> >> Forgiving is tough, being
> forgiven
> > is
> >> wonderful, and God's grace
> really
> > is amazing.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Read this topic online here:
> >>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> >> Navigator to browse
> >> List Un/Subscription,
> >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> >> -
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> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> > Navigator to browse
> > List Un/Subscription,
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> > - MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
> > via the Web Forums!
> > - NEW MATRONICS LIST
> WIKI -
> > Email List Wiki!
> > - List Contribution
> Web Site -
> > support!
> >
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
> Admin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
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>
>
Message 10
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|
Subject: | Re: High Thrust Line Question |
THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.
After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning
towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.
The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if
I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can
find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome
it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator,
add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator
(called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.
Onward !
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM
BillI
can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60
prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000
rpm.
With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person
operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
elevator at full power.
The 60 prop turned large amount of power into
noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the
thrust.
If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop
recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the
engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
change.
You might find the big reduction ratio a better
overall fit.
Rick NeilsenRedrive VW powered
MKIII
On Wed, May 9,
2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
slide them into place.
BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
before folding the wings.
The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
force over a reasonable range of installation torques.
This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.
All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
recommended distance from the tailboom.
The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
into a major engineering project :)
The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
get the 2.58 gearbox !
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com
- safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
entities
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM
Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
Bill, I know that this might sound
crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears
for
the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I
cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement
parts.
The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of
it.
If they dont, Id sure shy away
from buying one.
George Helton
1986 Firestar, FS100
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill
Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> I have been pulling out what's
left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
to
quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission
well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
reliability.
I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot
afford to change it.
>
> What I have learned thus far is:
>
> 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really
wants to swing a larger propeller than what is
actually "correct" for the height of the
thrust line
on the Kolb airframe.
>
> 2) Turning the gearbox upwards
will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a
thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
is
advisable.
>
> 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5
blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line
problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.
>
> I have considered many possible
solutions or "work-arounds" :
>
> 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and
remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
the
problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and
effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
the
"solutions".
>
> 2) Remove the wings after every
flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
blade
propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
to
build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
be
removed and installed by myself alone.
>
> 3) Make a folding propeller, like
the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
fold
rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
ground
equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
propeller
will be prohibitvely expensive.
>
> 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.
This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
afford
it.
>
> 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,
install the right propeller, and live with the possibly
dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.
>
> Any other/better/wiser/workable
ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!
>
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com
-
safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net
- winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
>
>
--------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
<gdhelton@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High
Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39
AM
>
> --> Kolb-List message posted
by: George
> Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> Well Bill, thanks for bringing up
the
> topic. I replaced my little Rotax
377 with new low rpm Hirth
> 2702 over the winter. I really
hadnt measured the
> distance between the prop hub and
boom tube. You sparked my
> interest so I stopped by my hanger
this morning to check it
> out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox
with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
> which translates to 2400 rpm prop
speed @ the engines
> max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.
> Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.
This
> is on a Kolb original Firestar. I
did have to move the
> engine forward 2.625 to
compensate for the extra weight
> of the new gear box. I went with a
64 3 blade Powerfin
> prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.
This setup gives me 3.5
> of clearance from the boom tube.
Thanks for inspiring me to
> check it out. Im sure
there is a good combination
> of prop out there for an HKS.
> George Helton
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
> 14GDH
> Mesick, Michigan
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,
Bill
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>> Everybody THANK YOU for
taking
> time for this discussion.
>>
>> I spoke to the Kolb factory
today
> by phone, and went out to the
local UL flying field to see
> an HKS engine run.
>>
>> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were
asked
> one specific question by me:
What is the maximum
> number of inches allowable or
advisable between the center
> of the propeller and the top of
the tailboom?
>>
>> Bryan said that 36 inches is
about
> standard for a "normal" Firestar,
and he would not want to
> fly an airplane with that distance
raised to 39 or 40
> inches.
>>
>> I went back to my hangar and
> measured, and the distance on my
Firestar would be over 40
> or 41 inches if I turned the
gearbox upward. So if the Kolb
> factory owner says 40 inches is
too high, I can only be
> humble and assume that I wouldn't
want to fly it at 40
> inches either. If any of the
highly experienced Kolbers on
> this forum are flying with their
thrust line 40 inches above
> the tailboom, I REALLY would like
to know about it pronto.
>>
>> As big of an ego as I have had
a
> few times in my life, and as much
as I think of myself as a
> reasonably skilled pilot, I
don't need to be a test
> pilot here and try to push any
envelope at this early stage.
> So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a
favor... if any of you are
> flying a Firestar with the engine
thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
> incvhes above the tailboom please
post this on the list and
> let me know ifyou have any issues
with the handling,
> pitch-over, etc.
>>
>> Bill Berle
>> www.ezflaphandle.com
-
> safety & performance upgrade
for light aircraft
>> www.grantstar.net
> -
winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>>
>>
>
--------------------------------------------
>> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike
> <thegreybaron@charter.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High
> Thrust Line Question
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,
4:38
> PM
>>
>> --> Kolb-List message
posted
> by: "Richard
>> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>>
>> Bill; notice the extent to
which
> Rick
>> raised his engine. (Great
> pictures) Maybe you can leave the
>> gearbox down and raise the
engine
> up?
>>
>> --------
>> Richard Pike
>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>>
>> Forgiving is tough, being
forgiven
> is
>> wonderful, and God's grace
really
> is amazing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>> Navigator to browse
>> List Un/Subscription,
>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>> -
MATRONICS
> WEB FORUMS -
>> via the Web Forums!
>> - NEW
MATRONICS LIST
> WIKI -
>> Email List Wiki!
>> - List
Contribution
> Web Site -
>> support!
>>
>
>> -Matt
Dralle, List
> Admin.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS
WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST
WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution
Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List
Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
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target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
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eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
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Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: High Thrust Line Question |
Bill, I was wondering? Did you buy this HKS engine and gearbox combination from
a HKS distributor? If so, is HKS in such a state of financial insecurity that
it wont even consider swapping the the gearbox you have for one you need for
say a 20 to 30% restock or exchange fee? It sure disturbs me to think of that
kind business practice. Id think they would have a hard time selling engines in
the future. I mean I understand that you ordered the wrong gearbox, but come
on. Maybe I just spent to much time in sells, rental and customer service. -George-
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 11, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.
>
> After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly
leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.
>
> The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it...
if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I
can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome
it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator,
add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator
(called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.
>
> Onward !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM
>
> Bill I
> can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
> A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60
> prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000
> rpm.
> With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person
> operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
> elevator at full power.
> The 60 prop turned large amount of power into
> noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the
> thrust.
> If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop
> recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the
> engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
> apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
> change.
> You might find the big reduction ratio a better
> overall fit.
> Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
> MKIII
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 9,
> 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>
> The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
> case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
> slide them into place.
>
>
>
> BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
> potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
> aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
> make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
> central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
> before folding the wings.
>
>
>
> The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
> Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
> washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
> tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
> force over a reasonable range of installation torques.
>
>
>
> This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
> until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
> confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
> propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
> elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
> a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
> havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
> bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.
>
>
>
> All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
> 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
> recommended distance from the tailboom.
>
>
>
> The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
> never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
> into a major engineering project :)
>
>
>
> The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
> the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
> If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
> mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
> get the 2.58 gearbox !
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM
>
>
>
>
> Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Bill, I know that this might sound
>
> crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears
> for
>
> the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I
>
> cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement
> parts.
>
> The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of
> it.
>
>
>
> If they dont, Id sure shy away
>
> from buying one.
>
> George Helton
>
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
>
> 14GDH
>
> Mesick, Michigan
>
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill
>
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
>
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> >
>
> > I have been pulling out what's
>
> left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
> to
>
> quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission
>
> well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
> reliability.
>
> I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot
>
> afford to change it.
>
> >
>
> > What I have learned thus far is:
>
> >
>
> > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really
>
> wants to swing a larger propeller than what is
>
> actually "correct" for the height of the
> thrust line
>
> on the Kolb airframe.
>
> >
>
> > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards
>
> will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a
>
> thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
> is
>
> advisable.
>
> >
>
> > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5
>
> blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line
>
> problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.
>
> >
>
> > I have considered many possible
>
> solutions or "work-arounds" :
>
> >
>
> > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and
>
> remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
> the
>
> problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and
>
> effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
> the
>
> "solutions".
>
> >
>
> > 2) Remove the wings after every
>
> flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
> blade
>
> propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
> to
>
> build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
> be
>
> removed and installed by myself alone.
>
> >
>
> > 3) Make a folding propeller, like
>
> the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
> fold
>
> rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
> ground
>
> equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
> propeller
>
> will be prohibitvely expensive.
>
> >
>
> > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.
>
> This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
> afford
>
> it.
>
> >
>
> > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,
>
> install the right propeller, and live with the possibly
>
> dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.
>
> >
>
> > Any other/better/wiser/workable
>
> ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Bill Berle
>
> > www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> > www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> for-profit entities
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
>
> <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High
>
> Thrust Line Question
>
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39
>
> AM
>
> >
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
>
> by: George
>
> > Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> >
>
> > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up
>
> the
>
> > topic. I replaced my little Rotax
>
> 377 with new low rpm Hirth
>
> > 2702 over the winter. I really
>
> hadnt measured the
>
> > distance between the prop hub and
>
> boom tube. You sparked my
>
> > interest so I stopped by my hanger
>
> this morning to check it
>
> > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox
>
> with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
>
> > which translates to 2400 rpm prop
>
> speed @ the engines
>
> > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.
>
> > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.
>
> This
>
> > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I
>
> did have to move the
>
> > engine forward 2.625 to
>
> compensate for the extra weight
>
> > of the new gear box. I went with a
>
> 64 3 blade Powerfin
>
> > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.
>
> This setup gives me 3.5
>
> > of clearance from the boom tube.
>
> Thanks for inspiring me to
>
> > check it out. Im sure
>
> there is a good combination
>
> > of prop out there for an HKS.
>
> > George Helton
>
> > 1986 Firestar, FS100
>
> > 14GDH
>
> > Mesick, Michigan
>
> > gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> >
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
>
> >
>
> >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,
>
> Bill
>
> > Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
>
> posted
>
> > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> >>
>
> >> Everybody THANK YOU for
>
> taking
>
> > time for this discussion.
>
> >>
>
> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory
>
> today
>
> > by phone, and went out to the
>
> local UL flying field to see
>
> > an HKS engine run.
>
> >>
>
> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were
>
> asked
>
> > one specific question by me:
>
> What is the maximum
>
> > number of inches allowable or
>
> advisable between the center
>
> > of the propeller and the top of
>
> the tailboom?
>
> >>
>
> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is
>
> about
>
> > standard for a "normal" Firestar,
>
> and he would not want to
>
> > fly an airplane with that distance
>
> raised to 39 or 40
>
> > inches.
>
> >>
>
> >> I went back to my hangar and
>
> > measured, and the distance on my
>
> Firestar would be over 40
>
> > or 41 inches if I turned the
>
> gearbox upward. So if the Kolb
>
> > factory owner says 40 inches is
>
> too high, I can only be
>
> > humble and assume that I wouldn't
>
> want to fly it at 40
>
> > inches either. If any of the
>
> highly experienced Kolbers on
>
> > this forum are flying with their
>
> thrust line 40 inches above
>
> > the tailboom, I REALLY would like
>
> to know about it pronto.
>
> >>
>
> >> As big of an ego as I have had
>
> a
>
> > few times in my life, and as much
>
> as I think of myself as a
>
> > reasonably skilled pilot, I
>
> don't need to be a test
>
> > pilot here and try to push any
>
> envelope at this early stage.
>
> > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a
>
> favor... if any of you are
>
> > flying a Firestar with the engine
>
> thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
>
> > incvhes above the tailboom please
>
> post this on the list and
>
> > let me know ifyou have any issues
>
> with the handling,
>
> > pitch-over, etc.
>
> >>
>
> >> Bill Berle
>
> >> www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
> > safety & performance upgrade
>
> for light aircraft
>
> >> www.grantstar.net
>
> > -
>
> winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> > for-profit entities
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike
>
> > <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High
>
> > Thrust Line Question
>
> >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,
>
> 4:38
>
> > PM
>
> >>
>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
>
> posted
>
> > by: "Richard
>
> >> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> >>
>
> >> Bill; notice the extent to
>
> which
>
> > Rick
>
> >> raised his engine. (Great
>
> > pictures) Maybe you can leave the
>
> >> gearbox down and raise the
>
> engine
>
> > up?
>
> >>
>
> >> --------
>
> >> Richard Pike
>
> >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> >>
>
> >> Forgiving is tough, being
>
> forgiven
>
> > is
>
> >> wonderful, and God's grace
>
> really
>
> > is amazing.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Read this topic online here:
>
> >>
>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> >> Navigator to browse
>
> >> List Un/Subscription,
>
> >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> >> -
>
> MATRONICS
>
> > WEB FORUMS -
>
> >> via the Web Forums!
>
> >> - NEW
>
> MATRONICS LIST
>
> > WIKI -
>
> >> Email List Wiki!
>
> >> - List
>
> Contribution
>
> > Web Site -
>
> >> support!
>
> >>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >> -Matt
>
> Dralle, List
>
> > Admin.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> > Navigator to browse
>
> > List Un/Subscription,
>
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> > - MATRONICS
>
> WEB FORUMS -
>
> > via the Web Forums!
>
> > - NEW MATRONICS LIST
>
> WIKI -
>
> > Email List Wiki!
>
> > - List Contribution
>
> Web Site -
>
> > support!
>
> >
>
>
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
>
> Admin.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> Navigator to browse
>
> List Un/Subscription,
>
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> via the Web Forums!
>
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>
> Email List Wiki!
>
> - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> support!
>
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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|
Subject: | primer bulb quality |
Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator".
Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a
battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the
kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't
realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After
the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled.
But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before
the startup.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality
I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I
don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM
battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the
charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure
this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List .
Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg
I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system
remains the same.
George Helton
1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
You could check a boat shop.
I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no
idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20
years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat.
Boyd Young
Message 13
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PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | primer bulb quality |
Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator".
Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a
battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the
kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't
realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After
the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled.
But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before
the startup.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality
I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I
don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM
battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the
charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure
this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List .
Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg
I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system
remains the same.
George Helton
1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
You could check a boat shop.
I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no
idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20
years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat.
Boyd Young
Message 14
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|
Subject: | Re: primer bulb quality |
Check the Harley parts suppliers, too. I put a capacitor system on an early
Sporty so the generator could power the lights without a battery. The mag
fired the engine just fine and the cap smoothed out the pulse that made the
lights flash at low rpm. Here's one:
https://vintagetriumphparts.com/Sparx_Capacitor_w_Spring_Battery_Eliminator
/p2461?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMta4eQwdngZeCsMKKy3DwS2e7iCL5XCs0ltB
vTU9DrxzliYE4UvKixoC4-YQAvD_BwE
and another:
https://www.jpcycles.com/product/381-043/accel-battery-eliminator-capacitor
?mrkgcl=444&mrkgadid=1330269437&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&ut
m_term=74945772970product_type_l1vehicles_%26_parts%26product_type_l2land
_vehicles%26product_type_l3mot&utm_campaign=PLA+-+Shopping+Campaign&produ
ct_id=381-043&utm_content=pla&adpos=1o1&creative=42040095730&device
=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMkQZwoIKEyhHP
eBf2y0zGR3qpkDT8T0IpuyT1KfRw0BoV87owOSD3xoColEQAvD_BwE
Rick
On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:43 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator".
> Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery.
> It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also act
ed
> as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I
> rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the
> old capacitor was reinstalled.
>
>
> But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before
> the startup.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-
> server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *George Helton
> *Sent:* Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality
>
>
> I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I
> don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM
battery
> that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging
> circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff
out. It=99s
> all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. [imag
e:
> image1.jpeg]
> I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remai
ns the
> same.
>
> George Helton
>
> 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth
>
> 14GDH
>
> Mesick, Michigan
>
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young <byoungplumbing@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could check a boat shop.
>
>
> I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no ide
a
> how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years,
> and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat.
>
>
> Boyd Young
>
>
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D
Groucho Marx
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
Message 15
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|
Subject: | Re: High Thrust Line Question |
BILL My two cents. On my FSII I could fold the wings with a two bladed prop horizontal
by loosing the rear mount and lifting the engine slightly. Take a few
measurements and you might be able to use a four bladed prop.
joe
> On May 11, 2018 at 1:44 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback.
>
> After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly
leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller.
>
> The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it...
if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I
can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome
it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator,
add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator
(called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc.
>
> Onward !
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM
>
> Bill I
> can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with
> A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60
> prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000
> rpm.
> With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person
> operation was fine but with two I would run out of up
> elevator at full power.
> The 60 prop turned large amount of power into
> noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the
> thrust.
> If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop
> recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the
> engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the
> apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft
> change.
> You might find the big reduction ratio a better
> overall fit.
> Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered
> MKIII
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 9,
> 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
> Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>
> The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox
> case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and
> slide them into place.
>
>
>
> BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other
> potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced
> aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can
> make a simple prop extension that is held on with one
> central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller
> before folding the wings.
>
>
>
> The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville
> Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel
> washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is
> tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression
> force over a reasonable range of installation torques.
>
>
>
> This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut
> until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be
> confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the
> propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench,
> elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides
> a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of
> havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the
> bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc.
>
>
>
> All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or
> 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's
> recommended distance from the tailboom.
>
>
>
> The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will
> never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane
> into a major engineering project :)
>
>
>
> The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe
> the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine.
> If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my
> mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you
> get the 2.58 gearbox !
>
>
>
> Bill Berle
>
> www.ezflaphandle.com
> - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> www.grantstar.net
> - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit
> entities
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question
>
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM
>
>
>
>
> Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> Bill, I know that this might sound
>
> crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears
> for
>
> the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I
>
> cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement
> parts.
>
> The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of
> it.
>
>
>
> If they dont, Id sure shy away
>
> from buying one.
>
> George Helton
>
> 1986 Firestar, FS100
>
> 14GDH
>
> Mesick, Michigan
>
> gdhelton@gmail.com
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill
>
> Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
>
> by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> >
>
> > I have been pulling out what's
>
> left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want
> to
>
> quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission
>
> well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved
> reliability.
>
> I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot
>
> afford to change it.
>
> >
>
> > What I have learned thus far is:
>
> >
>
> > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really
>
> wants to swing a larger propeller than what is
>
> actually "correct" for the height of the
> thrust line
>
> on the Kolb airframe.
>
> >
>
> > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards
>
> will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a
>
> thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks
> is
>
> advisable.
>
> >
>
> > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5
>
> blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line
>
> problems, but that interferes with folding the wings.
>
> >
>
> > I have considered many possible
>
> solutions or "work-arounds" :
>
> >
>
> > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and
>
> remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of
> the
>
> problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and
>
> effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all
> the
>
> "solutions".
>
> >
>
> > 2) Remove the wings after every
>
> flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5
> blade
>
> propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me
> to
>
> build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to
> be
>
> removed and installed by myself alone.
>
> >
>
> > 3) Make a folding propeller, like
>
> the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades
> fold
>
> rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex
> ground
>
> equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a
> propeller
>
> will be prohibitvely expensive.
>
> >
>
> > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS.
>
> This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot
> afford
>
> it.
>
> >
>
> > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards,
>
> install the right propeller, and live with the possibly
>
> dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane.
>
> >
>
> > Any other/better/wiser/workable
>
> ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Bill Berle
>
> > www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
>
> > www.grantstar.net
>
> - winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> for-profit entities
>
> >
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton
>
> <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High
>
> Thrust Line Question
>
> > To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39
>
> AM
>
> >
>
> > --> Kolb-List message posted
>
> by: George
>
> > Helton <gdhelton@gmail.com>
>
> >
>
> > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up
>
> the
>
> > topic. I replaced my little Rotax
>
> 377 with new low rpm Hirth
>
> > 2702 over the winter. I really
>
> hadnt measured the
>
> > distance between the prop hub and
>
> boom tube. You sparked my
>
> > interest so I stopped by my hanger
>
> this morning to check it
>
> > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox
>
> with 2:29 to 1 ratio.
>
> > which translates to 2400 rpm prop
>
> speed @ the engines
>
> > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm.
>
> > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches.
>
> This
>
> > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I
>
> did have to move the
>
> > engine forward 2.625 to
>
> compensate for the extra weight
>
> > of the new gear box. I went with a
>
> 64 3 blade Powerfin
>
> > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch.
>
> This setup gives me 3.5
>
> > of clearance from the boom tube.
>
> Thanks for inspiring me to
>
> > check it out. Im sure
>
> there is a good combination
>
> > of prop out there for an HKS.
>
> > George Helton
>
> > 1986 Firestar, FS100
>
> > 14GDH
>
> > Mesick, Michigan
>
> > gdhelton@gmail.com
>
> >
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
>
> >
>
> >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM,
>
> Bill
>
> > Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
>
> posted
>
> > by: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
>
> >>
>
> >> Everybody THANK YOU for
>
> taking
>
> > time for this discussion.
>
> >>
>
> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory
>
> today
>
> > by phone, and went out to the
>
> local UL flying field to see
>
> > an HKS engine run.
>
> >>
>
> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were
>
> asked
>
> > one specific question by me:
>
> What is the maximum
>
> > number of inches allowable or
>
> advisable between the center
>
> > of the propeller and the top of
>
> the tailboom?
>
> >>
>
> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is
>
> about
>
> > standard for a "normal" Firestar,
>
> and he would not want to
>
> > fly an airplane with that distance
>
> raised to 39 or 40
>
> > inches.
>
> >>
>
> >> I went back to my hangar and
>
> > measured, and the distance on my
>
> Firestar would be over 40
>
> > or 41 inches if I turned the
>
> gearbox upward. So if the Kolb
>
> > factory owner says 40 inches is
>
> too high, I can only be
>
> > humble and assume that I wouldn't
>
> want to fly it at 40
>
> > inches either. If any of the
>
> highly experienced Kolbers on
>
> > this forum are flying with their
>
> thrust line 40 inches above
>
> > the tailboom, I REALLY would like
>
> to know about it pronto.
>
> >>
>
> >> As big of an ego as I have had
>
> a
>
> > few times in my life, and as much
>
> as I think of myself as a
>
> > reasonably skilled pilot, I
>
> don't need to be a test
>
> > pilot here and try to push any
>
> envelope at this early stage.
>
> > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a
>
> favor... if any of you are
>
> > flying a Firestar with the engine
>
> thrust line 39 or 40 or 41
>
> > incvhes above the tailboom please
>
> post this on the list and
>
> > let me know ifyou have any issues
>
> with the handling,
>
> > pitch-over, etc.
>
> >>
>
> >> Bill Berle
>
> >> www.ezflaphandle.com
> -
>
> > safety & performance upgrade
>
> for light aircraft
>
> >> www.grantstar.net
>
> > -
>
> winning proposals for non-profit and
>
> > for-profit entities
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike
>
> > <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High
>
> > Thrust Line Question
>
> >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>
> >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018,
>
> 4:38
>
> > PM
>
> >>
>
> >> --> Kolb-List message
>
> posted
>
> > by: "Richard
>
> >> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> >>
>
> >> Bill; notice the extent to
>
> which
>
> > Rick
>
> >> raised his engine. (Great
>
> > pictures) Maybe you can leave the
>
> >> gearbox down and raise the
>
> engine
>
> > up?
>
> >>
>
> >> --------
>
> >> Richard Pike
>
> >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
>
> >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> >>
>
> >> Forgiving is tough, being
>
> forgiven
>
> > is
>
> >> wonderful, and God's grace
>
> really
>
> > is amazing.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Read this topic online here:
>
> >>
>
> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> >> Navigator to browse
>
> >> List Un/Subscription,
>
> >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> >> -
>
> MATRONICS
>
> > WEB FORUMS -
>
> >> via the Web Forums!
>
> >> - NEW
>
> MATRONICS LIST
>
> > WIKI -
>
> >> Email List Wiki!
>
> >> - List
>
> Contribution
>
> > Web Site -
>
> >> support!
>
> >>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >> -Matt
>
> Dralle, List
>
> > Admin.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> > Navigator to browse
>
> > List Un/Subscription,
>
> > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> > - MATRONICS
>
> WEB FORUMS -
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>
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>
>
> > -Matt Dralle, List
>
> Admin.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
>
> Navigator to browse
>
> List Un/Subscription,
>
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
>
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> via the Web Forums!
>
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>
> Email List Wiki!
>
> - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> support!
>
>
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
>
> -List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
>
> ==========
>
> FORUMS -
>
> eferrer"
> target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> WIKI -
>
> errer"
> target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>
> ==========
>
> b Site -
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
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>
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>
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Subject: | Re: High Thrust Line Question |
Increasing the size/shape of the horizontal stab ought to solve a whole bunch of
apparent control authority issues. It would not be a big deal to increase the
chord of any Kolb horizontal stab, and it would not take but a little creative
thinking to make it work very well and still retain the folding ability. As
long as you keep the basic concepts the same, all you can do is make things
better.
(Also - does nobody know how to edit/remove a whole boatload of previous/extraneous
posts from their posts? So that we don't have posts that are full of scroll
down/scroll down/scroll down extraneous/previous posts?
Not that I want to be the list Hall Monitor; but seriously? This is stuff that
we knew how to deal with back in Windows 3.5!!)
Flame on...
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480082#480082
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