---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/11/18: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:16 AM - primer bulb quality (Charlie England) 2. 06:32 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Girard) 3. 06:52 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Charlie England) 4. 06:56 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck) 5. 07:14 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (B Young) 6. 07:35 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (George Helton) 7. 09:01 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Pike) 8. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: primer bulb quality (Jack) 9. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (Rick Neilsen) 10. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (Bill Berle) 11. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (George Helton) 12. 11:42 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck) 13. 11:44 AM - Re: primer bulb quality (John Hauck) 14. 12:12 PM - Re: primer bulb quality (Richard Girard) 15. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: High Thrust Line Question (mojavjoe) 16. 07:04 PM - Re: High Thrust Line Question (Richard Pike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:22 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bulb. The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way through. Here's the link to avoid: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? Thanks, Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:58 AM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twelve years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Even the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk. If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the surest, safest way to go. Rick Girard On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England wrote: > I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, > it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple > of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through > it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This > morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bul b. > The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the w ay > through. > > Here's the link to avoid: > https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_ > detailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-7939962202052559284_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:52:37 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality Unfortunately, no battery. But I may have to re-think that..... On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Richard Girard wrote : > After a broken flapper valve put me back on the ground just seconds after > take off I went searching for a better quality primer bulb. That was twel ve > years ago. Short version, all I could find was "Hecho en Chine" crap. Eve n > the supposedly "good" one from CPS was junk. > If you have an electrical system replace it with a Facet pump. That's the > surest, safest way to go. > > Rick Girard > > On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Charlie England > wrote: > >> I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project . IIRC, >> it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a coupl e >> of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through >> it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This >> morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bu lb. >> The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way >> through. >> >> Here's the link to avoid: >> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_de >> tailpage_o08_s04?ie=UTF8&psc=1 >> >> Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie >> >> >> Virus-free. >> www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-3983814855049618153_m_-7939962202052559284_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8- 4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> > > > -- > =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. =9D Groucho Marx > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:15 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality Haven't used a primer bulb since my Firestar days, with no battery. When I built the MKIII, the primer bulb was replaced with a Facet fuel pump. Primer bulbs are famous for failing, on the ground and in the air. 1997, while on a flight in the Firestar from Alabama to Miami, I had an engine failure over Sebring, FL. Only place to go was the football stadium at Sebring High School. I made it into that tiny spot and got stopped. The Lord was with me that day. No brakes installed on the Firestar at that time. The primer bulb stopped passing fuel and the pulse pump pulled it flat. If I was going to run a primer bulb I would spend the dollars and buy a name brand, i.e., Honda, Mercury, etc. I like Honda. Had one on a 90 Honda outboard that was very old. When I sold the boat it was still in good shape. The price will scare you when you go to buy a replacement. Usually, in my experience, it's the little things that bring you down more than catastrophic failures. Murphy is always lurking, waiting to do his dirty deeds. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie England Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 8:15 AM Subject: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I bought a 6mm primer bulb on Amazon last summer for my Twinstar project. IIRC, it was installed in my fuel line in October. It's only been used a couple of times since installation. I've run less than 3 gallons of gas through it, using only non-ethanol premium car gas with two stroke oil. This morning, I noticed fuel standing on top of the tank, under the primer bulb. The bulb has completely dry rotted, with one end cracked almost all the way through. Here's the link to avoid: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LCD8I9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o0 8_s04?ie=UTF8 &psc=1 Now, can anyone recommend a quality primer bulb for 6mm fuel line? Thanks, Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:23 AM PST US From: B Young Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young > <#m_-6390720489743258610_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:21 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don =99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery t hat charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circu it to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It =99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experienc e. I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains t he same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: > > You could check a boat shop. > > I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, a nd was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. > > Boyd Young > >> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:03 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: primer bulb quality From: "Richard Pike" Facet is the way to go, unless you don't have an electrical system. But even w/o an electrical system, you don' need no steekeen primer bulb... Hard plumb the system as much as possible. Good quality rubber fuel line from the tank to the aluminum fuel line, run that aluminum tubing all the way to the fuel pulse pump. Run clear urethane line (so you can see the fuel going through it) from the fuel pump to the carb and replace it annually. Solder a piece of brass tubing to a brass washer and used a rubber grommet to make a fairly airtight connection to the tank; this is your vent opening. Get a long enough length of model airplane fuel tubing to fit snugly over the brass tube and reach to the side of the fuselage. To prime the engine, blow into the model airplane fuel line until you see the gas start to flow out of the pulse pump toward the carb. Now pinch off the model airplane fuel line and hold it for a minute until the float bowl has time to fill. Walk around to the engine side and verify that the fuel line is full, if the fuel line is full, probably your float bowl is too. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480071#480071 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: primer bulb quality From: Jack On 5/11/2018 12:00 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > i used to pull the vent line up and just blow in it putting pressure in the fuel tank forceing the fuel up to the carbs. Worked for me. Only drawback you probably introduce a little moisture from your breath into the tank. I now have a plunger primer. > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard1_105.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/hard2_144.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/vent_111.jpeg > http://forums.matronics.com//files/plastic_179.jpeg > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:25 AM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Bill I can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch prop with 7=9D clearance, 1=9D clearance, a 60=9D prop tu rning 3200 rpm and 72=9D at 2000 rpm. With a 72=9D prop and 7=9D clearance one person operation was f ine but with two I would run out of up elevator at full power. The 60=9D prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three bla de 2000 rpm 72=9D prop gives twice the thrust. If you can fit a 70-74=9D prop depending on prop recommendations with close to 1=9D clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop c learance the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change. You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIII On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle wrote : > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So > unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. > After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy > engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on wi th > one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before foldi ng > the wings. > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or > Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat > (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable > tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques .. > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the > Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is > plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to > use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also > provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to > torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter > Pins, etc. > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop > with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom .. > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making > fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other > Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this > engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just > make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > Helton > > Bill, I know that this might sound > crazy but, can=99t you just buy a different set of gears for > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > can=99t imagine that HKS can=99t supply replacement parts. > The gearbox case doesn=99t care what gears fit inside of it. > > If they don=99t, I=99d sure shy away > from buying one. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle > > > > I have been pulling out what's > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > afford to change it. > > > > What I have learned thus far is: > > > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line > on the Kolb airframe. > > > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is > advisable. > > > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > > > I have considered many possible > solutions or "work-arounds" : > > > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the > "solutions". > > > > 2) Remove the wings after every > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be > removed and installed by myself alone. > > > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller > will be prohibitvely expensive. > > > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford > it. > > > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > > > Any other/better/wiser/workable > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > AM > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > by: George > > Helton > > > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > the > > topic. I replaced my little Rotax > 377 with new low rpm Hirth > > 2702 over the winter. I really > hadn=99t measured the > > distance between the prop hub and > boom tube. You sparked my > > interest so I stopped by my hanger > this morning to check it > > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > > which translates to 2400 rpm prop > speed @ the engine=99s > > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > This > > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > did have to move the > > engine forward 2.625=9D to > compensate for the extra weight > > of the new gear box. I went with a > 64=9D 3 blade Powerfin > > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > This setup gives me 3.5=9D > > of clearance from the boom tube. > Thanks for inspiring me to > > check it out. I=99m sure > there is a good combination > > of prop out there for an HKS. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > >> > >> --> Kolb-List message > posted > > by: Bill Berle > >> > >> Everybody THANK YOU for > taking > > time for this discussion. > >> > >> I spoke to the Kolb factory > today > > by phone, and went out to the > local UL flying field to see > > an HKS engine run. > >> > >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > asked > > one specific question by me: > What is the maximum > > number of inches allowable or > advisable between the center > > of the propeller and the top of > the tailboom? > >> > >> Bryan said that 36 inches is > about > > standard for a "normal" Firestar, > and he would not want to > > fly an airplane with that distance > raised to 39 or 40 > > inches. > >> > >> I went back to my hangar and > > measured, and the distance on my > Firestar would be over 40 > > or 41 inches if I turned the > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > > factory owner says 40 inches is > too high, I can only be > > humble and assume that I wouldn't > want to fly it at 40 > > inches either. If any of the > highly experienced Kolbers on > > this forum are flying with their > thrust line 40 inches above > > the tailboom, I REALLY would like > to know about it pronto. > >> > >> As big of an ego as I have had > a > > few times in my life, and as much > as I think of myself as a > > reasonably skilled pilot, I > don't need to be a test > > pilot here and try to push any > envelope at this early stage. > > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > favor... if any of you are > > flying a Firestar with the engine > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > > incvhes above the tailboom please > post this on the list and > > let me know ifyou have any issues > with the handling, > > pitch-over, etc. > >> > >> Bill Berle > >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > > safety & performance upgrade > for light aircraft > >> www.grantstar.net > > - > winning proposals for non-profit and > > for-profit entities > >> > >> > > > -------------------------------------------- > >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > > Thrust Line Question > >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com > >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > 4:38 > > PM > >> > >> --> Kolb-List message > posted > > by: "Richard > >> Pike" > >> > >> Bill; notice the extent to > which > > Rick > >> raised his engine. (Great > > pictures) Maybe you can leave the > >> gearbox down and raise the > engine > > up? > >> > >> -------- > >> Richard Pike > >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > >> > >> Forgiving is tough, being > forgiven > > is > >> wonderful, and God's grace > really > > is amazing. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Read this topic online here: > >> > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - > >> Navigator to browse > >> List Un/Subscription, > >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > >> - > MATRONICS > > WEB FORUMS - > >> via the Web Forums! > >> - NEW > MATRONICS LIST > > WIKI - > >> Email List Wiki! > >> - List > Contribution > > Web Site - > >> support! > >> > > > > >> -Matt > Dralle, List > > Admin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > List Un/Subscription, > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - > > via the Web Forums! > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - > > Email List Wiki! > > - List Contribution > Web Site - > > support! > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:06 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. Onward ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM BillI can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 rpm. With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person operation was fine but with two I would run out of up elevator at full power. The 60 prop turned large amount of power into noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the thrust. If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft change. You might find the big reduction ratio a better overall fit. Rick NeilsenRedrive VW powered MKIII On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle wrote: Bill Berle The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and slide them into place. BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can make a simple prop extension that is held on with one central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller before folding the wings. The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression force over a reasonable range of installation torques. This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's recommended distance from the tailboom. The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane into a major engineering project :) The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you get the 2.58 gearbox ! Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM Helton Bill, I know that this might sound crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears for the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement parts. The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of it. If they dont, Id sure shy away from buying one. George Helton 1986 Firestar, FS100 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > I have been pulling out what's left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want to quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved reliability. I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot afford to change it. > > What I have learned thus far is: > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really wants to swing a larger propeller than what is actually "correct" for the height of the thrust line on the Kolb airframe. > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks is advisable. > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > I have considered many possible solutions or "work-arounds" : > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of the problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all the "solutions". > > 2) Remove the wings after every flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 blade propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me to build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to be removed and installed by myself alone. > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades fold rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex ground equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a propeller will be prohibitvely expensive. > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot afford it. > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, install the right propeller, and live with the possibly dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > Any other/better/wiser/workable ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: George > Helton > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up the > topic. I replaced my little Rotax 377 with new low rpm Hirth > 2702 over the winter. I really hadnt measured the > distance between the prop hub and boom tube. You sparked my > interest so I stopped by my hanger this morning to check it > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > which translates to 2400 rpm prop speed @ the engines > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. This > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I did have to move the > engine forward 2.625 to compensate for the extra weight > of the new gear box. I went with a 64 3 blade Powerfin > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. This setup gives me 3.5 > of clearance from the boom tube. Thanks for inspiring me to > check it out. Im sure there is a good combination > of prop out there for an HKS. > George Helton > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, Bill > Berle > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Everybody THANK YOU for taking > time for this discussion. >> >> I spoke to the Kolb factory today > by phone, and went out to the local UL flying field to see > an HKS engine run. >> >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were asked > one specific question by me: What is the maximum > number of inches allowable or advisable between the center > of the propeller and the top of the tailboom? >> >> Bryan said that 36 inches is about > standard for a "normal" Firestar, and he would not want to > fly an airplane with that distance raised to 39 or 40 > inches. >> >> I went back to my hangar and > measured, and the distance on my Firestar would be over 40 > or 41 inches if I turned the gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > factory owner says 40 inches is too high, I can only be > humble and assume that I wouldn't want to fly it at 40 > inches either. If any of the highly experienced Kolbers on > this forum are flying with their thrust line 40 inches above > the tailboom, I REALLY would like to know about it pronto. >> >> As big of an ego as I have had a > few times in my life, and as much as I think of myself as a > reasonably skilled pilot, I don't need to be a test > pilot here and try to push any envelope at this early stage. > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a favor... if any of you are > flying a Firestar with the engine thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > incvhes above the tailboom please post this on the list and > let me know ifyou have any issues with the handling, > pitch-over, etc. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities >> >> > -------------------------------------------- >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > wrote: >> >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > Thrust Line Question >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, 4:38 > PM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Richard >> Pike" >> >> Bill; notice the extent to which > Rick >> raised his engine. (Great > pictures) Maybe you can leave the >> gearbox down and raise the engine > up? >> >> -------- >> Richard Pike >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >> >> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven > is >> wonderful, and God's grace really > is amazing. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ========== -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List ========== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ========== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ========== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ========== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:47 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question Bill, I was wondering? Did you buy this HKS engine and gearbox combination from a HKS distributor? If so, is HKS in such a state of financial insecurity that it wont even consider swapping the the gearbox you have for one you need for say a 20 to 30% restock or exchange fee? It sure disturbs me to think of that kind business practice. Id think they would have a hard time selling engines in the future. I mean I understand that you ordered the wrong gearbox, but come on. Maybe I just spent to much time in sells, rental and customer service. -George- Sent from my iPhone > On May 11, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. > > After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. > > The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. > > Onward ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM > > Bill I > can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with > A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 > prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 > rpm. > With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person > operation was fine but with two I would run out of up > elevator at full power. > The 60 prop turned large amount of power into > noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the > thrust. > If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop > recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the > engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the > apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft > change. > You might find the big reduction ratio a better > overall fit. > Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered > MKIII > > > > > On Wed, May 9, > 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox > case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and > slide them into place. > > > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other > potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced > aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can > make a simple prop extension that is held on with one > central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller > before folding the wings. > > > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville > Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel > washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is > tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression > force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut > until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be > confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the > propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, > elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides > a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of > havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the > bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or > 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's > recommended distance from the tailboom. > > > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will > never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane > into a major engineering project :) > > > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe > the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. > If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my > mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you > get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > > > > Helton > > > > Bill, I know that this might sound > > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears > for > > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement > parts. > > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of > it. > > > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > > from buying one. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: Bill Berle > > > > > > I have been pulling out what's > > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want > to > > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved > reliability. > > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > > afford to change it. > > > > > > What I have learned thus far is: > > > > > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > > actually "correct" for the height of the > thrust line > > on the Kolb airframe. > > > > > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks > is > > advisable. > > > > > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > > > > > I have considered many possible > > solutions or "work-arounds" : > > > > > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of > the > > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all > the > > "solutions". > > > > > > 2) Remove the wings after every > > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 > blade > > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me > to > > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to > be > > removed and installed by myself alone. > > > > > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like > > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades > fold > > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex > ground > > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a > propeller > > will be prohibitvely expensive. > > > > > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot > afford > > it. > > > > > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > > > > > Any other/better/wiser/workable > > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > > www.grantstar.net > > - winning proposals for non-profit and > > for-profit entities > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > > Thrust Line Question > > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > > AM > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: George > > > Helton > > > > > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > > the > > > topic. I replaced my little Rotax > > 377 with new low rpm Hirth > > > 2702 over the winter. I really > > hadnt measured the > > > distance between the prop hub and > > boom tube. You sparked my > > > interest so I stopped by my hanger > > this morning to check it > > > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > > > which translates to 2400 rpm prop > > speed @ the engines > > > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > > > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > > This > > > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > > did have to move the > > > engine forward 2.625 to > > compensate for the extra weight > > > of the new gear box. I went with a > > 64 3 blade Powerfin > > > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > > This setup gives me 3.5 > > > of clearance from the boom tube. > > Thanks for inspiring me to > > > check it out. Im sure > > there is a good combination > > > of prop out there for an HKS. > > > George Helton > > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > > 14GDH > > > Mesick, Michigan > > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > > Bill > > > Berle > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: Bill Berle > > >> > > >> Everybody THANK YOU for > > taking > > > time for this discussion. > > >> > > >> I spoke to the Kolb factory > > today > > > by phone, and went out to the > > local UL flying field to see > > > an HKS engine run. > > >> > > >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > > asked > > > one specific question by me: > > What is the maximum > > > number of inches allowable or > > advisable between the center > > > of the propeller and the top of > > the tailboom? > > >> > > >> Bryan said that 36 inches is > > about > > > standard for a "normal" Firestar, > > and he would not want to > > > fly an airplane with that distance > > raised to 39 or 40 > > > inches. > > >> > > >> I went back to my hangar and > > > measured, and the distance on my > > Firestar would be over 40 > > > or 41 inches if I turned the > > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > > > factory owner says 40 inches is > > too high, I can only be > > > humble and assume that I wouldn't > > want to fly it at 40 > > > inches either. If any of the > > highly experienced Kolbers on > > > this forum are flying with their > > thrust line 40 inches above > > > the tailboom, I REALLY would like > > to know about it pronto. > > >> > > >> As big of an ego as I have had > > a > > > few times in my life, and as much > > as I think of myself as a > > > reasonably skilled pilot, I > > don't need to be a test > > > pilot here and try to push any > > envelope at this early stage. > > > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > > favor... if any of you are > > > flying a Firestar with the engine > > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > > > incvhes above the tailboom please > > post this on the list and > > > let me know ifyou have any issues > > with the handling, > > > pitch-over, etc. > > >> > > >> Bill Berle > > >> www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > > safety & performance upgrade > > for light aircraft > > >> www.grantstar.net > > > - > > winning proposals for non-profit and > > > for-profit entities > > >> > > >> > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > > > Thrust Line Question > > >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > > 4:38 > > > PM > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: "Richard > > >> Pike" > > >> > > >> Bill; notice the extent to > > which > > > Rick > > >> raised his engine. (Great > > > pictures) Maybe you can leave the > > >> gearbox down and raise the > > engine > > > up? > > >> > > >> -------- > > >> Richard Pike > > >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > >> > > >> Forgiving is tough, being > > forgiven > > > is > > >> wonderful, and God's grace > > really > > > is amazing. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Read this topic online here: > > >> > > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > >> Navigator to browse > > >> List Un/Subscription, > > >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > >> - > > MATRONICS > > > WEB FORUMS - > > >> via the Web Forums! > > >> - NEW > > MATRONICS LIST > > > WIKI - > > >> Email List Wiki! > > >> - List > > Contribution > > > Web Site - > > >> support! > > >> > > > > > > > >> -Matt > > Dralle, List > > > Admin. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > > Navigator to browse > > > List Un/Subscription, > > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > - MATRONICS > > WEB FORUMS - > > > via the Web Forums! > > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > > WIKI - > > > Email List Wiki! > > > - List Contribution > > Web Site - > > > support! > > > > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > List Un/Subscription, > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > via the Web Forums! > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > Email List Wiki! > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > support! > > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:41 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled. But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before the startup. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains the same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:44 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also acted as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the old capacitor was reinstalled. But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before the startup. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. image1.jpeg I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remains the same. George Helton 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: You could check a boat shop. I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no idea how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. Boyd Young ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:38 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality Check the Harley parts suppliers, too. I put a capacitor system on an early Sporty so the generator could power the lights without a battery. The mag fired the engine just fine and the cap smoothed out the pulse that made the lights flash at low rpm. Here's one: https://vintagetriumphparts.com/Sparx_Capacitor_w_Spring_Battery_Eliminator /p2461?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMta4eQwdngZeCsMKKy3DwS2e7iCL5XCs0ltB vTU9DrxzliYE4UvKixoC4-YQAvD_BwE and another: https://www.jpcycles.com/product/381-043/accel-battery-eliminator-capacitor ?mrkgcl=444&mrkgadid=1330269437&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&ut m_term=74945772970product_type_l1vehicles_%26_parts%26product_type_l2land _vehicles%26product_type_l3mot&utm_campaign=PLA+-+Shopping+Campaign&produ ct_id=381-043&utm_content=pla&adpos=1o1&creative=42040095730&device =c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMkQZwoIKEyhHP eBf2y0zGR3qpkDT8T0IpuyT1KfRw0BoV87owOSD3xoColEQAvD_BwE Rick On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:43 PM, John Hauck wrote: > Back in the 80's JC Whitney had what they called a "battery eliminator". > Purpose to have lights on your dirt bike without the weight of a battery. > It worked on my 447. The small capacitor that came with the kit also act ed > as a noise filter for my STS handheld VHF. Didn't realize that until I > rebuilt the FS and eliminated the capacitor. After the first flight the > old capacitor was reinstalled. > > > But...to use the pump as a primer, it's got to have battery power before > the startup. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *George Helton > *Sent:* Friday, May 11, 2018 9:34 AM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: primer bulb quality > > > I agree with you guys. A facet electric fuel pump is the way to go. I > don=99t use a electric starter so I run it off a small 1.3 amp AGM battery > that charges off the rectifier regulator with capacitor in the charging > circuit to balance the voltage output. I didn=99t figure this stuff out. It=99s > all thanks to you guys on the Kolb-List . Gotta go with experience. [imag e: > image1.jpeg] > I=99ve since relocated the battery to the nose but the system remai ns the > same. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar,FS100, 2702 Hirth > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 11, 2018, at 10:12 AM, B Young wrote: > > You could check a boat shop. > > > I bought a used boat in the late 80s, 2 stroke outboard,,, have no ide a > how old the primer bulb was when I bought it, I had the boat 20 years, > and was still using the same bulb when I sold the boat. > > > Boyd Young > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:27 PM PST US From: mojavjoe Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question BILL My two cents. On my FSII I could fold the wings with a two bladed prop horizontal by loosing the rear mount and lifting the engine slightly. Take a few measurements and you might be able to use a four bladed prop. joe > On May 11, 2018 at 1:44 PM Bill Berle wrote: > > > > THANK YOU Rick, I appreciate the feedback. > > After all this enormous discussion and exchange of information, I am strongly leaning towards turning the gearbox upward and running a large propeller. > > The reason for this is that I believe I would have an "out" if I needed it... if I do run out of elevator control because of the thrust line being high, I can find a fairly straightforward way to increase elevator authority to overcome it. I can increase the chord or span of the elevator, add VG's under the elevator, add the outboard part of the stabilizer to the movable part of the elevator (called an "aerodynamic balance" on Cub type aircraft), etc. > > Onward ! > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Fri, 5/11/18, Rick Neilsen wrote: > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, May 11, 2018, 10:30 AM > > Bill I > can only speak about the MKlll with a VW. I have run It with > A 72 inch prop with 7 clearance, 1 clearance, a 60 > prop turning 3200 rpm and 72 at 2000 > rpm. > With a 72 prop and 7 clearance one person > operation was fine but with two I would run out of up > elevator at full power. > The 60 prop turned large amount of power into > noise. The three blade 2000 rpm 72 prop gives twice the > thrust. > If you can fit a 70-74 prop depending on prop > recommendations with close to 1 clearance by raising the > engine do it. If you keep the prop clearance the same the > apparent thrust line change is half the prop shaft > change. > You might find the big reduction ratio a better > overall fit. > Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered > MKIII > > > > > On Wed, May 9, > 2018 at 8:58 PM Bill Berle > wrote: > Bill Berle > > > > The replacement gear set does not fit into the same gearbox > case. So unfortunately I cannot just buy two new gears and > slide them into place. > > > > BUT... I am making progress towards one of the other > potential solutions. After consulting with an experienced > aircraft structures and metallurgy engineer, I believe I can > make a simple prop extension that is held on with one > central nut (a great big nut !) and remove the propeller > before folding the wings. > > > > The key to doing this SAFELY is called the Belleville > Spring, or Belleville Washer. It is a conical spring steel > washer that becomes flat (like a regular washer) as it is > tightened, providing a known, reliable tension/compression > force over a reasonable range of installation torques. > > > > This means that I can install the propeller, tighten the nut > until the Belleville Washer is more or less flat, and be > confident that there is plenty of tension/compression in the > propeller mounting without having to use a torque wrench, > elaborate bolt stretch charts, etc. etc. This also provides > a much more convenient and error-proof option instead of > havign to torque six propeller bolts and safety wire the > bolts, install six Cotter Pins, etc. > > > > All of this means I will be hopefully able to use a 4, 5, or > 6 blade prop with the thrust line within Kolb's > recommended distance from the tailboom. > > > > The only downside is that Kolbers around the world will > never stop making fun of me for turning a simple airplane > into a major engineering project :) > > > > The HKS engine is a VERY good quality engine and I believe > the other Kolb/HKS owners will agree they love the engine. > If you wish to use this engine on a Kolb, don't hold my > mis-adventures against the engine... just make darn sure you > get the 2.58 gearbox ! > > > > Bill Berle > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > www.grantstar.net > - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit > entities > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > wrote: > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 11:37 AM > > > > > Helton > > > > Bill, I know that this might sound > > crazy but, cant you just buy a different set of gears > for > > the gearbox? Being a mechanic may be a benefit here but I > > cant imagine that HKS cant supply replacement > parts. > > The gearbox case doesnt care what gears fit inside of > it. > > > > If they dont, Id sure shy away > > from buying one. > > George Helton > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > 14GDH > > Mesick, Michigan > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 PM, Bill > > Berle > > wrote: > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: Bill Berle > > > > > > I have been pulling out what's > > left of my hair over this issue. I really don't want > to > > quit, I LIKE the Kolb airframe and it will fit my mission > > well. I like the HKS fuel economy and improved > reliability. > > I just wound up with the wrong gearbox on it and cannot > > afford to change it. > > > > > > What I have learned thus far is: > > > > > > 1) My 3.47 to 1 gearbox really > > wants to swing a larger propeller than what is > > actually "correct" for the height of the > thrust line > > on the Kolb airframe. > > > > > > 2) Turning the gearbox upwards > > will solve the prop diameter problem, but it creates a > > thrust line that is higher than the Kolb factory thinks > is > > advisable. > > > > > > 3) I could easily go to a 4 or 5 > > blade propeller, solves the gearbox AND thrust line > > problems, but that interferes with folding the wings. > > > > > > I have considered many possible > > solutions or "work-arounds" : > > > > > > 1) Get a 5 blade propeller and > > remove it after every flight, which would allow ALL of > the > > problems to be solved, at the cost of additional time and > > effort every time I fly. This will cost the least of all > the > > "solutions". > > > > > > 2) Remove the wings after every > > flight instead of folding the wings. This allows a 5 > blade > > propeller to be used but adds complexity and requires me > to > > build a complicated ground fixture to allow the wings to > be > > removed and installed by myself alone. > > > > > > 3) Make a folding propeller, like > > the electric R/C model gliders have, where the blades > fold > > rearward. This solves all of the problems, no complex > ground > > equipment, but designing and manufacturing such a > propeller > > will be prohibitvely expensive. > > > > > > 4) Buy another gearbox from HKS. > > This is the best solution mechanically, but I cannot > afford > > it. > > > > > > 5) Turn the gearbox upwards, > > install the right propeller, and live with the possibly > > dangerous or funky flight handling of the airplane. > > > > > > Any other/better/wiser/workable > > ideas from the Kolb List are very very welcome! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Berle > > > www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > > > www.grantstar.net > > - winning proposals for non-profit and > > for-profit entities > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > > On Wed, 5/9/18, George Helton > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: High > > Thrust Line Question > > > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > > Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018, 9:39 > > AM > > > > > > --> Kolb-List message posted > > by: George > > > Helton > > > > > > Well Bill, thanks for bringing up > > the > > > topic. I replaced my little Rotax > > 377 with new low rpm Hirth > > > 2702 over the winter. I really > > hadnt measured the > > > distance between the prop hub and > > boom tube. You sparked my > > > interest so I stopped by my hanger > > this morning to check it > > > out. The Hirth uses a G50 gearbox > > with 2:29 to 1 ratio. > > > which translates to 2400 rpm prop > > speed @ the engines > > > max. HP rpm of 5500rpm. > > > Anyway, it measures 35.5 inches. > > This > > > is on a Kolb original Firestar. I > > did have to move the > > > engine forward 2.625 to > > compensate for the extra weight > > > of the new gear box. I went with a > > 64 3 blade Powerfin > > > prop set at 6.4 degrees of pitch. > > This setup gives me 3.5 > > > of clearance from the boom tube. > > Thanks for inspiring me to > > > check it out. Im sure > > there is a good combination > > > of prop out there for an HKS. > > > George Helton > > > 1986 Firestar, FS100 > > > 14GDH > > > Mesick, Michigan > > > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On May 8, 2018, at 11:08 PM, > > Bill > > > Berle > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: Bill Berle > > >> > > >> Everybody THANK YOU for > > taking > > > time for this discussion. > > >> > > >> I spoke to the Kolb factory > > today > > > by phone, and went out to the > > local UL flying field to see > > > an HKS engine run. > > >> > > >> Duane and Bryan at Kolb were > > asked > > > one specific question by me: > > What is the maximum > > > number of inches allowable or > > advisable between the center > > > of the propeller and the top of > > the tailboom? > > >> > > >> Bryan said that 36 inches is > > about > > > standard for a "normal" Firestar, > > and he would not want to > > > fly an airplane with that distance > > raised to 39 or 40 > > > inches. > > >> > > >> I went back to my hangar and > > > measured, and the distance on my > > Firestar would be over 40 > > > or 41 inches if I turned the > > gearbox upward. So if the Kolb > > > factory owner says 40 inches is > > too high, I can only be > > > humble and assume that I wouldn't > > want to fly it at 40 > > > inches either. If any of the > > highly experienced Kolbers on > > > this forum are flying with their > > thrust line 40 inches above > > > the tailboom, I REALLY would like > > to know about it pronto. > > >> > > >> As big of an ego as I have had > > a > > > few times in my life, and as much > > as I think of myself as a > > > reasonably skilled pilot, I > > don't need to be a test > > > pilot here and try to push any > > envelope at this early stage. > > > So if I can ask the Kolb ilst a > > favor... if any of you are > > > flying a Firestar with the engine > > thrust line 39 or 40 or 41 > > > incvhes above the tailboom please > > post this on the list and > > > let me know ifyou have any issues > > with the handling, > > > pitch-over, etc. > > >> > > >> Bill Berle > > >> www.ezflaphandle.com > - > > > safety & performance upgrade > > for light aircraft > > >> www.grantstar.net > > > - > > winning proposals for non-profit and > > > for-profit entities > > >> > > >> > > > > > -------------------------------------------- > > >> On Tue, 5/8/18, Richard Pike > > > > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High > > > Thrust Line Question > > >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018, > > 4:38 > > > PM > > >> > > >> --> Kolb-List message > > posted > > > by: "Richard > > >> Pike" > > >> > > >> Bill; notice the extent to > > which > > > Rick > > >> raised his engine. (Great > > > pictures) Maybe you can leave the > > >> gearbox down and raise the > > engine > > > up? > > >> > > >> -------- > > >> Richard Pike > > >> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > > >> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > >> > > >> Forgiving is tough, being > > forgiven > > > is > > >> wonderful, and God's grace > > really > > > is amazing. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Read this topic online here: > > >> > > >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479963#479963 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > >> Navigator to browse > > >> List Un/Subscription, > > >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > >> - > > MATRONICS > > > WEB FORUMS - > > >> via the Web Forums! > > >> - NEW > > MATRONICS LIST > > > WIKI - > > >> Email List Wiki! > > >> - List > > Contribution > > > Web Site - > > >> support! > > >> > > > > > > > >> -Matt > > Dralle, List > > > Admin. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > > Navigator to browse > > > List Un/Subscription, > > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > > - MATRONICS > > WEB FORUMS - > > > via the Web Forums! > > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST > > WIKI - > > > Email List Wiki! > > > - List Contribution > > Web Site - > > > support! > > > > > > > > -Matt Dralle, List > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > > Navigator to browse > > List Un/Subscription, > > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > via the Web Forums! > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > Email List Wiki! > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > support! > > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > ========== > > -List" rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" > target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer" > target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:51 PM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: High Thrust Line Question From: "Richard Pike" Increasing the size/shape of the horizontal stab ought to solve a whole bunch of apparent control authority issues. It would not be a big deal to increase the chord of any Kolb horizontal stab, and it would not take but a little creative thinking to make it work very well and still retain the folding ability. As long as you keep the basic concepts the same, all you can do is make things better. (Also - does nobody know how to edit/remove a whole boatload of previous/extraneous posts from their posts? So that we don't have posts that are full of scroll down/scroll down/scroll down extraneous/previous posts? Not that I want to be the list Hall Monitor; but seriously? This is stuff that we knew how to deal with back in Windows 3.5!!) Flame on... -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. 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