Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:21 AM - gear legs (Russ Kinne)
2. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
3. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
4. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (lcottrell1020)
5. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Rick Neilsen)
6. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
Message 1
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I have a set of steel legs for the Mark 3, brand new, in factory
box, never unpacked. Cant use them Make me a (good) offer!
Russ Kinne
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things
I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward
with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would
get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed
anything.
Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer
by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially
changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could be a better
solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have
seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have
also seen photos of simple trim tabs.
There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model
airplane servos, etc. etc.
What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more
appropriate than others.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Plan to fly for many hours with the
ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
much lighter.
You will lose some aileron deflection.
Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
can put them back like they were.
In the meantime, everything that
Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Droop the ailerons a tiny bit at a time. Test fly after each adjustment. Only
do one adjustment at a time, but you already knew that.
Drooping the ailerons will pull the nose down.
Increasing the angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizers will also lower the
nose a little, but drooping ailerons is easier.
Nothing wrong with trim tabs. I had one on an aileron, rudder, and elevator, on
my Firestar. Fabricated out of .016 6061. Worked perfect. As speed increased
the trim tab angles would decrease a tad. Somehow it kept the Firestar trimmed
in all 3 axis all the time. I could let go of the stick on climb out and
the FS would hold its attitude.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things
I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward
with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would
get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed
anything.
Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer
by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially
changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could be a better
solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have
seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have
also seen photos of simple trim tabs.
There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model
airplane servos, etc. etc.
What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more
appropriate than others.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Plan to fly for many hours with the
ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
much lighter.
You will lose some aileron deflection.
Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
can put them back like they were.
In the meantime, everything that
Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
- MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
via the Web Forums!
- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
Email List Wiki!
- List Contribution Web Site -
support!
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
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PQoKCgo
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Bill
Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen
brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up and
down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options. Kolb does
sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of attack to be
fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best when properly
rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim is the
exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work but why not
fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel when they aren't
using control surfaces to fix rigging issues.
You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You
are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow. Don't
rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All it takes
is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will see the
ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You experience and
training will kick in and will start your flair at 20-30'. With little
extra airspeed, lots of drag and little inertia.......Just don't do it. Do
you like rebuilding airplanes?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the
> things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick
> forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force,
> but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
>
> There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet
> installed anything.
>
> Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the
> stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch,
> essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could
> be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator.
> I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the
> past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs.
>
> There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees,
> model airplane servos, etc. etc.
>
> What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better,
> or more appropriate than others.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
>
> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> Plan to fly for many hours with the
> ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
> normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
> you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
> aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
> the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
> it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
> much lighter.
>
> You will lose some aileron deflection.
> Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
> that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
> But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
> able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
> can put them back like they were.
>
> In the meantime, everything that
> Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
> absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
> just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
> wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102
>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
> List Un/Subscription,
> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
> Email List Wiki!
> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
I don't know of anyone, Kolb Aircraft included, that can build a Kolb
that is rigged perfectly first time around. If a builder does end up
with a perfectly rigged Kolb on his first try, it is probably a lot of
luck involved. So many variables affect the rigging on a Kolb when it
is being built, covered, and finished.
I'm very limited in my knowledge of factory built GA aircraft. The ones
I flew had pitch, roll, and yaw trim. It is necessary to set up the
aircraft to fly without adverse pressure on the stick. Pilot won't last
long on a long cross country unless he can fly without unwanted pressure
on the stick and rudder pedals to keep the aircraft in trim.
Passengers, cargo, fuel all play a big role in aircraft trim.
Constantly changing.
My MKIII has a very simple bungee trim for roll, forced trim for pitch
(never needed anything but nose up trim), and a very large rudder trim
tab for yaw. Proud to say my system works just as good as "store
bought".
If your trim problems are exaggerated, you probably have a more serious
rigging problem that requires some rerigging. Changing the incidence of
a wing with the part that Steven Green designed many years ago could be
called trim and/or rerigging. Same for changing the incidence of the
horizontal stabilizer.
I believe drooping the ailerons, trim tabs, changing incidence of wing
and horizontal stabilizer, are rerigging and trimming. They are not a
poor solution. If trim tabs and forced trim were a poor solution they
wouldn't use them on many aircraft (and that is a bunch of aircraft).
Our Army helicopters, many years ago, used forced trim on the cyclic.
We didn't have trim on the anti-torque pedals. Wasn't needed because
there was not that much back pressure to overcome. We used friction to
keep the collective in place.
Respectfully disagree with my buddy Rick N's comments below, reference
trim tabs. I believe his MKIIIs rudder trim tab works great. ;-) If
not, it should.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Bill
Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen
brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up
and down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options.
Kolb does sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of
attack to be fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best
when properly rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim
is the exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work
but why not fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel
when they aren't using control surfaces to fix rigging issues.
You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You
are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow.
Don't rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All
it takes is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will
see the ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You
experience and training will kick in and will start your flair at
20-30'. With little extra airspeed, lots of drag and little
inertia.......Just don't do it. Do you like rebuilding airplanes?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of
the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the
stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not
"excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not
yet installed anything.
Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of
the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or
1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem
like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted
to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the
builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple
trim tabs.
There are of course a number of other methods, including springs,
bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc.
What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered
better, or more appropriate than others.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Plan to fly for many hours with the
ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
much lighter.
You will lose some aileron deflection.
Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
can put them back like they were.
In the meantime, everything that
Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
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