Kolb-List Digest Archive

Mon 08/06/18


Total Messages Posted: 6



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 07:21 AM - gear legs (Russ Kinne)
     2. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
     3. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
     4. 11:27 AM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (lcottrell1020)
     5. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Rick Neilsen)
     6. 06:53 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 07:21:56 AM PST US
    From: Russ Kinne <russk50@gmail.com>
    Subject: gear legs
    I have a set of steel legs for the Mark 3, brand new, in factory box, never unpacked. Cant use them Make me a (good) offer! Russ Kinne


    Message 2


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    Time: 09:28:00 AM PST US
    From: Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
    Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes. There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed anything. Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs. There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc. What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more appropriate than others. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net> Plan to fly for many hours with the ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out, you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot; it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become much lighter. You will lose some aileron deflection. Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call. But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you can put them back like they were. In the meantime, everything that Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.


    Message 3


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    Time: 11:21:56 AM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
    Droop the ailerons a tiny bit at a time. Test fly after each adjustment. Only do one adjustment at a time, but you already knew that. Drooping the ailerons will pull the nose down. Increasing the angle of attack on the horizontal stabilizers will also lower the nose a little, but drooping ailerons is easier. Nothing wrong with trim tabs. I had one on an aileron, rudder, and elevator, on my Firestar. Fabricated out of .016 6061. Worked perfect. As speed increased the trim tab angles would decrease a tad. Somehow it kept the Firestar trimmed in all 3 axis all the time. I could let go of the stick on climb out and the FS would hold its attitude. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 11:28 AM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes. There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed anything. Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs. There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc. What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more appropriate than others. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net> Plan to fly for many hours with the ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out, you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot; it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become much lighter. You will lose some aileron deflection. Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call. But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you can put them back like they were. In the meantime, everything that Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin.


    Message 4


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    Time: 11:27:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
    From: lcottrell1020 <lcottrell1020@gmail.com>
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    Message 5


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    Time: 05:44:06 PM PST US
    From: Rick Neilsen <neilsenrm@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
    Bill Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up and down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options. Kolb does sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of attack to be fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best when properly rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim is the exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work but why not fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel when they aren't using control surfaces to fix rigging issues. You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow. Don't rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All it takes is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will see the ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You experience and training will kick in and will start your flair at 20-30'. With little extra airspeed, lots of drag and little inertia.......Just don't do it. Do you like rebuilding airplanes? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the > things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick > forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, > but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes. > > There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet > installed anything. > > Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the > stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, > essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could > be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. > I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the > past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs. > > There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, > model airplane servos, etc. etc. > > What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, > or more appropriate than others. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and > for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote: > > Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM > > Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net> > > Plan to fly for many hours with the > ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly > normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out, > you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the > aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving > the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot; > it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become > much lighter. > > You will lose some aileron deflection. > Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think > that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call. > But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be > able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you > can put them back like they were. > > In the meantime, everything that > Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is > absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly > just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is > wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102 > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:53:15 PM PST US
    From: "John Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
    I don't know of anyone, Kolb Aircraft included, that can build a Kolb that is rigged perfectly first time around. If a builder does end up with a perfectly rigged Kolb on his first try, it is probably a lot of luck involved. So many variables affect the rigging on a Kolb when it is being built, covered, and finished. I'm very limited in my knowledge of factory built GA aircraft. The ones I flew had pitch, roll, and yaw trim. It is necessary to set up the aircraft to fly without adverse pressure on the stick. Pilot won't last long on a long cross country unless he can fly without unwanted pressure on the stick and rudder pedals to keep the aircraft in trim. Passengers, cargo, fuel all play a big role in aircraft trim. Constantly changing. My MKIII has a very simple bungee trim for roll, forced trim for pitch (never needed anything but nose up trim), and a very large rudder trim tab for yaw. Proud to say my system works just as good as "store bought". If your trim problems are exaggerated, you probably have a more serious rigging problem that requires some rerigging. Changing the incidence of a wing with the part that Steven Green designed many years ago could be called trim and/or rerigging. Same for changing the incidence of the horizontal stabilizer. I believe drooping the ailerons, trim tabs, changing incidence of wing and horizontal stabilizer, are rerigging and trimming. They are not a poor solution. If trim tabs and forced trim were a poor solution they wouldn't use them on many aircraft (and that is a bunch of aircraft). Our Army helicopters, many years ago, used forced trim on the cyclic. We didn't have trim on the anti-torque pedals. Wasn't needed because there was not that much back pressure to overcome. We used friction to keep the collective in place. Respectfully disagree with my buddy Rick N's comments below, reference trim tabs. I believe his MKIIIs rudder trim tab works great. ;-) If not, it should. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up and down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options. Kolb does sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of attack to be fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best when properly rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim is the exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work but why not fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel when they aren't using control surfaces to fix rigging issues. You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow. Don't rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All it takes is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will see the ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You experience and training will kick in and will start your flair at 20-30'. With little extra airspeed, lots of drag and little inertia.......Just don't do it. Do you like rebuilding airplanes? Rick Neilsen Redrive VW powered MKIIIC On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes. There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet installed anything. Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs. There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc. What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better, or more appropriate than others. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote: Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net> Plan to fly for many hours with the ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out, you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot; it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become much lighter. You will lose some aileron deflection. Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call. But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you can put them back like they were. In the meantime, everything that Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution




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