Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:59 AM - New Camera Video (snowman)
2. 06:13 AM - Re: New Camera Video (John Hauck)
3. 07:05 AM - Re: New Camera Video (K I)
4. 08:08 AM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Rex Rodebush)
5. 10:33 AM - Re: New Camera Video (west1m)
6. 11:54 AM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
7. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Rick Neilsen)
8. 12:51 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
9. 02:28 PM - Re: New Camera Video (George Helton)
10. 04:13 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
11. 04:29 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
12. 04:43 PM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (George Alexander)
13. 04:44 PM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Rex Rodebush)
14. 05:23 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
15. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
16. 05:56 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
17. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck)
18. 07:59 PM - Re: gear legs (Vern)
19. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Bill Berle)
20. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: gear legs (Bill Berle)
Message 1
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Subject: | New Camera Video |
Got a new camera (Sony) , mounted it on the nose . Here's video from Saturday's
Flight around my Home area in Western Washington ! Enjoy ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXdWGjAk6Mw&feature=youtu.be
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482144#482144
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Subject: | New Camera Video |
I like your airport and the terrain around it.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of snowman
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 7:59 AM
Subject: Kolb-List: New Camera Video
Got a new camera (Sony) , mounted it on the nose . Here's video from
Saturday's Flight around my Home area in Western Washington ! Enjoy ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXdWGjAk6Mw&feature=youtu.be
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482144#482144
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Subject: | Re: New Camera Video |
Very nice flight video! Very well done. Thanks for posting it.
Kurt
Kolb Mark III Classic
Utah
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 7, 2018, at 07:16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
> I like your airport and the terrain around it.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of snowman
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 7:59 AM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: New Camera Video
>
>
> Got a new camera (Sony) , mounted it on the nose . Here's video from
> Saturday's Flight around my Home area in Western Washington ! Enjoy ..
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXdWGjAk6Mw&feature=youtu.be
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482144#482144
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Yes, apparently all the Kolb's have different trim characteristics. When solo
I have to have a little nose down trim. I do this by moving the flaps down 5
degrees. ( I have 9 lockable positions on my flaps). With a passenger I need
the standard spring force up trim. I also have an adjustable aileron trim and
the standard rudder trim tab. John is right. Passengers, fuel amount, baggage
all change the trim. You either have to live with it or use adjustable trims
to compensate.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482149#482149
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Subject: | Re: New Camera Video |
Very nice flight. Thanks for posting.
--------
West1m
Hastings, MN
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482152#482152
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
My trim issues are definitely MINOR. Please forgive me if I let anybody think this
was a major issue. It is not at all.
Although I have a grand total of under 20 minutes of flight time on this aircraft,
during that time I did not notice any significant wing heaviness, tendency
to pull left or right in yaw, or any sort of significant vibrations, thumping,
bumping, or threatening noises or feelings from the airframe.
Obviously I have not had time to let go of the controls, or "feel" any sort of
subtle feedback from the airframe at this early stage. I also have not had the
inclination yet to experiment with throttle settings and different airspeeds.
It is entirely possible that the nose will come down at lower airspeeds, but at
lower speeds I will probably be using less power, and the engine will be producing
less "nose-down" force from the high thrust line. It may or may not require
more or less push on the stick at different speeds, which I will definitely
be checking on the next flight.
Another thing that surprised me: I had assumed the big tires and the long gear
legs (tires further below the aircraft) would be pulling the nose down and forcing
me to pull back on the stick. This was not the case. I am also assuming
that the big tires will cause enough drag to slow the airplane's "cruise speed"
down some amount. The highest indicated airspeed I saw on the brief period of
level flight was 55 MPH IAS.
By the way, the current "configuration" of the Firestar is:
No windshield at all (using a full face shield on motorcycle helmet)
Round aluminum struts (not streamlined)
No gap seals on any control surfaces
No enclosure around the cabin or fuel tank area
Vortex Generators installed on wing and under tail
21 inch bush tires (THANK YOU BOYD !!!!)
No fairings on landing gear legs
Aluminum center section gap cover forward half of the wing
Fabric center gap cover velcro'ed between bottom surface of wings
So this is meant to say that there are plenty of small drag reduction things that
I can do in the future AFTER I learn how to fly the airplane.
Again thanks to everyone who is participating in this discussion, I am happy to
have all the different opinions and experiences of more experienced Kolb pilots.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 8/7/18, Rex Rodebush <jrrodebush@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2018, 8:08 AM
Rodebush" <jrrodebush@gmail.com>
Yes, apparently all the Kolb's have
different trim characteristics. When solo I have to
have a little nose down trim. I do this by moving the
flaps down 5 degrees. ( I have 9 lockable positions on
my flaps). With a passenger I need the standard spring
force up trim. I also have an adjustable aileron trim
and the standard rudder trim tab. John is right.
Passengers, fuel amount, baggage all change the trim.
You either have to live with it or use adjustable trims to
compensate.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482149#482149
The Kolb-List Email Forum -
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Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
We have been dancing around this subject for a few years so it seems this
is a good time to explain why I don't like to use trim tabs any more than
necessary.
Induced drag is the drag you get when you have the airplane do something
useful like throwing air at the ground to make lift. Flaps are a good
example of how their deployment effects an airplane and it is easy to
understand how they work. Depending on the amount of deployment they
produce different amounts of drag and lift. With just a bit of deployment
they produce more lift than induced drag and at full deployment mostly
induced drag and little lift. But flaps and drooped ailerons aren't very
efficient in producing lift without inducing a higher amount of induced
drag than say a wing. A side effect of flaps on a Kolb airplane is that it
shifts the center of lift aft causing a nose down trim change. Most people
will not cruise with their flaps down because it slows your plane down.
Some people have even found that raising their flaps and ailerons a bit
will add speed. There is also a very short moment arm for changing pitch
trim with ailerons as apposed to the tail where the moment arm is much
longer. The induce drag would be an order of magnitude greater with
ailerons changing pitch trim than at the tail. So why would you fly in
cruse with your ailerons drooped?
Bill has an airplane that pitches down in cruise. The horizontal stabilizer
is pulling the tail down too much so Bill has to push the elevators down to
compensate. In other words his horizontal stabilizer is throwing air up and
the elevators are throwing air down to keep the plane level. The horizontal
stabilizer and the elevators are causing wasted induced drag while they are
fighting each other. Adding a trim tab to the elevators adds even more
induced drag as it is throwing air up to lower the elevators. If you have a
1.5 to 2 passenger Kolb you will have a trim spring and you will need it
for passenger flying. If you fly with a passenger all the time rig your
plane for the passenger and may be reverse the trim spring.
So just learned Steven Green designed the universal joint adjuster, not to
surprised he is a very smart guy. I used Steven's adjusters to get my
MKIIIC flying level flying solo in cruise with no control pressure tabs or
bungee. More than 90% of my flying is solo so that is where I set my all my
rigging. With a passenger I need a small amount left aileron pressure but
never enough to be tiring. Never noticed any aileron pressure when loaded
with a aux fuel tank and a weeks camping gear.
The rudder trim is a problem. As John says moving the vertical stabilizer
doesn't help. I moved mine and it didn't noticeably help, had to put a trim
tab on the rudder but the vertical stabilizer is still moved off center
(can't hurt).
As John says the trim changes depending on the load. Set your rigging to
fly as level as you can get it in your normal cruise loading. Don't rig
your plane to fight other parts of your plane to fly right.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:55 PM John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
> I don't know of anyone, Kolb Aircraft included, that can build a Kolb that
> is rigged perfectly first time around. If a builder does end up with a
> perfectly rigged Kolb on his first try, it is probably a lot of luck
> involved. So many variables affect the rigging on a Kolb when it is being
> built, covered, and finished.
>
>
> I'm very limited in my knowledge of factory built GA aircraft. The ones I
> flew had pitch, roll, and yaw trim. It is necessary to set up the aircraft
> to fly without adverse pressure on the stick. Pilot won't last long on a
> long cross country unless he can fly without unwanted pressure on the stick
> and rudder pedals to keep the aircraft in trim.
>
>
> Passengers, cargo, fuel all play a big role in aircraft trim. Constantly
> changing.
>
>
> My MKIII has a very simple bungee trim for roll, forced trim for pitch
> (never needed anything but nose up trim), and a very large rudder trim tab
> for yaw. Proud to say my system works just as good as "store bought".
>
>
> If your trim problems are exaggerated, you probably have a more serious
> rigging problem that requires some rerigging. Changing the incidence of a
> wing with the part that Steven Green designed many years ago could be
> called trim and/or rerigging. Same for changing the incidence of the
> horizontal stabilizer.
>
>
> I believe drooping the ailerons, trim tabs, changing incidence of wing and
> horizontal stabilizer, are rerigging and trimming. They are not a poor
> solution. If trim tabs and forced trim were a poor solution they wouldn't
> use them on many aircraft (and that is a bunch of aircraft). Our Army
> helicopters, many years ago, used forced trim on the cyclic. We didn't
> have trim on the anti-torque pedals. Wasn't needed because there was not
> that much back pressure to overcome. We used friction to keep the
> collective in place.
>
>
> Respectfully disagree with my buddy Rick N's comments below, reference
> trim tabs. I believe his MKIIIs rudder trim tab works great. ;-) If not,
> it should.
>
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
>
>
> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Neilsen
> *Sent:* Monday, August 06, 2018 7:44 PM
> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
>
>
> Bill
>
>
> Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen
> brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up and
> down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options. Kolb does
> sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of attack to be
> fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best when properly
> rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim is the
> exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work but why not
> fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel when they aren't
> using control surfaces to fix rigging issues.
>
>
> You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You
> are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow. Don't
> rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All it takes
> is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will see the
> ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You experience and
> training will kick in and will start your flair at 20-30'. With little
> extra airspeed, lots of drag and little inertia.......Just don't do it. Do
> you like rebuilding airplanes?
>
>
> Rick Neilsen
>
> Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of the
> things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the stick
> forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not "excessive" force,
> but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
>
> There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not yet
> installed anything.
>
> Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of the
> stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or 1/4 inch,
> essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem like it could
> be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted to the elevator.
> I think I have seen this described on one of the builder's websites in the
> past, but I have also seen photos of simple trim tabs.
>
> There are of course a number of other methods, including springs, bungees,
> model airplane servos, etc. etc.
>
> What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered better,
> or more appropriate than others.
>
> Bill Berle
> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
> www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
> for-profit entities
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
>
> Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
>
> Plan to fly for many hours with the
> ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
> normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
> you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
> aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
> the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
> it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
> much lighter.
>
> You will lose some aileron deflection.
> Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
> that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
> But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
> able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
> can put them back like they were.
>
> In the meantime, everything that
> Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
> absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
> just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
>
> --------
> Richard Pike
> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
> Kingsport, TN 3TN0
>
> Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
> wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482102#482102
>
>
> The Kolb-List Email Forum -
> Navigator to browse
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> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
> via the Web Forums!
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
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> - List Contribution Web Site -
> support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
>
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Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Rick Nielsen wrote: Do you like rebuilding airplanes?
Well I sure don't want to rebuild this one just yet. Took two years just to do
a "simple" engine swap because of a million little details.
I am in 100% agreement that this is a dangerous moment. Just enough time in the
airplane to know it is manageable, not enough time to know where it will bite
you.
The only thing I have in my favor (in the area of steep landing approaches) is
that I have a fair amount of experience flying gliders with powerful "dive brakes",
which allowed a very steep approach. This is of course not an exact match
for a Kolb UL style airplane, but it is a lot closer than the average long shallow
approach training they give you in a Cherokee or 172.
So my job at this stage will be to fly safely, don't do anything stupid, but still
begin to explore and learn how the airplane flies at different speeds and
power settings.
As far as the aileron heaviness issue, I have gone back to the archives and found
the old posts from "Jet Pilot" regarding the boosters/spades mounted on the
ailerons. It appears that Kolb Aircraft (Dennis) built these spade mounts to
rivet onto the aileron, and that Jet Pilot put 8 by 9 inch plates on these mounts.
From everyting I had read, he indicated that they worked well, and did not
"snatch" the stick out of his hands or cause any other significant problem.
Once again, I am NOT looking for an aerobatic aircraft. I am NOT going to go around
pretending to be a Top Gun combat pilot dogfighting with other aircraft.
But where I live we do have crosswinds, and gusts, and eddy currents from wind
flowing around hangars or trees. We do have people groundloop their Cubs and
T-crafts because of this. When a 15 knot crosswind represents 50% of the landing
speed of the aircraft, you do not want to run out of control to fight back
against a gust, or be unable to keep a wingtip off the ground.
Can anyone here on the Kolb list tell me anything positive or negative regarding
experimenting with the spades ? Does anybody here know Jet Pilot who did experiment
with the spades and found them to be useful?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: New Camera Video |
Beautiful video. Which model of Sony is it. You sure have some beautiful country
to fly in.
George H.
Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth
14GDH
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 7, 2018, at 10:05 AM, K I <wrk2win4u@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> Very nice flight video! Very well done. Thanks for posting it.
>
> Kurt
> Kolb Mark III Classic
> Utah
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Aug 7, 2018, at 07:16, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I like your airport and the terrain around it.
>>
>> john h
>> mkIII
>> Titus, Alabama
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of snowman
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 7:59 AM
>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Kolb-List: New Camera Video
>>
>>
>> Got a new camera (Sony) , mounted it on the nose . Here's video from
>> Saturday's Flight around my Home area in Western Washington ! Enjoy ..
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXdWGjAk6Mw&feature=youtu.be
>>
>> Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482144#482144
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Let me address drooping ailerons or raising ailerons to adjust pitch
trim. The amount of lowering or raising the ailerons is minute. Maybe
one or two turns of the rod end bearing. Doubt we can measure the
induced drag by changing aileron rigging that much. Might even gain
some depending on which way you go..
Our Kolbs are designed to be one big mass of induced drag. They were
not designed to go fast, to be sleek and clean aerodynamically. That's
why they don't fly really fast no matter how much power you put on them.
All three of my Kolbs, US, FS, MKIII, have an effective top speed, then
they hit an invisible wall. With more power it will fly a little
faster, but it is really loud and uncomfortable. Not where the Kolbs
want to fly.
I've had a chance over the years to fly hours and days on long cross
country flights with friends. During those long days we fly close
formation, chase coyotes and antelopes, fly with our wheels nearly
touching the grass. Gave me plenty time to observe other Kolbs in
flight. For the most part rudder and elevators are straight and level.
My elevators are drooped a tad. I see no difference reference drag from
trim tabs or forced trim, and both are minute.
I wouldn't want to try and cruise with flaps drooped on a MKIII. You'd
have a Hell of a lot of pitch down and drag. Flaps are very effective
for landing in short, rough fields and unimproved terrain. They aid in
increased decent rate and slowing air speed. They help slow us down
when we flare for landing and roll out.
I seldom use flaps for takeoff, but when I do I normally start my roll
clean, then pop full flaps as I go through 30 mph. Soon as I am off the
ground and gain a tad of airspeed I ease the flaps back up.
Guess I'm putting down words as my mind rambles. I think my bottom line
is three trim tabs to tweak the trim of you Kolb is negligible and you
won't be able to detect the difference in airspeed between no tabs and
with tabs.
Hope ya'll can decipher my wonderings.
I may be entirely wrong. I am definitely not an aerodynamic engineer
and don't want to be one. This is how I think a few things work for me.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
We have been dancing around this subject for a few years so it seems
this is a good time to explain why I don't like to use trim tabs any
more than necessary.
Induced drag is the drag you get when you have the airplane do something
useful like throwing air at the ground to make lift. Flaps are a good
example of how their deployment effects an airplane and it is easy to
understand how they work. Depending on the amount of deployment they
produce different amounts of drag and lift. With just a bit of
deployment they produce more lift than induced drag and at full
deployment mostly induced drag and little lift. But flaps and drooped
ailerons aren't very efficient in producing lift without inducing a
higher amount of induced drag than say a wing. A side effect of flaps on
a Kolb airplane is that it shifts the center of lift aft causing a nose
down trim change. Most people will not cruise with their flaps down
because it slows your plane down. Some people have even found that
raising their flaps and ailerons a bit will add speed. There is also a
very short moment arm for changing pitch trim with ailerons as apposed
to the tail where the moment arm is much longer. The induce drag would
be an order of magnitude greater with ailerons changing pitch trim than
at the tail. So why would you fly in cruse with your ailerons drooped?
Bill has an airplane that pitches down in cruise. The horizontal
stabilizer is pulling the tail down too much so Bill has to push the
elevators down to compensate. In other words his horizontal stabilizer
is throwing air up and the elevators are throwing air down to keep the
plane level. The horizontal stabilizer and the elevators are causing
wasted induced drag while they are fighting each other. Adding a trim
tab to the elevators adds even more induced drag as it is throwing air
up to lower the elevators. If you have a 1.5 to 2 passenger Kolb you
will have a trim spring and you will need it for passenger flying. If
you fly with a passenger all the time rig your plane for the passenger
and may be reverse the trim spring.
So just learned Steven Green designed the universal joint adjuster, not
to surprised he is a very smart guy. I used Steven's adjusters to get my
MKIIIC flying level flying solo in cruise with no control pressure tabs
or bungee. More than 90% of my flying is solo so that is where I set my
all my rigging. With a passenger I need a small amount left aileron
pressure but never enough to be tiring. Never noticed any aileron
pressure when loaded with a aux fuel tank and a weeks camping gear.
The rudder trim is a problem. As John says moving the vertical
stabilizer doesn't help. I moved mine and it didn't noticeably help, had
to put a trim tab on the rudder but the vertical stabilizer is still
moved off center (can't hurt).
As John says the trim changes depending on the load. Set your rigging to
fly as level as you can get it in your normal cruise loading. Don't rig
your plane to fight other parts of your plane to fly right.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:55 PM John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
I don't know of anyone, Kolb Aircraft included, that can build a Kolb
that is rigged perfectly first time around. If a builder does end up
with a perfectly rigged Kolb on his first try, it is probably a lot of
luck involved. So many variables affect the rigging on a Kolb when it
is being built, covered, and finished.
I'm very limited in my knowledge of factory built GA aircraft. The ones
I flew had pitch, roll, and yaw trim. It is necessary to set up the
aircraft to fly without adverse pressure on the stick. Pilot won't last
long on a long cross country unless he can fly without unwanted pressure
on the stick and rudder pedals to keep the aircraft in trim.
Passengers, cargo, fuel all play a big role in aircraft trim.
Constantly changing.
My MKIII has a very simple bungee trim for roll, forced trim for pitch
(never needed anything but nose up trim), and a very large rudder trim
tab for yaw. Proud to say my system works just as good as "store
bought".
If your trim problems are exaggerated, you probably have a more serious
rigging problem that requires some rerigging. Changing the incidence of
a wing with the part that Steven Green designed many years ago could be
called trim and/or rerigging. Same for changing the incidence of the
horizontal stabilizer.
I believe drooping the ailerons, trim tabs, changing incidence of wing
and horizontal stabilizer, are rerigging and trimming. They are not a
poor solution. If trim tabs and forced trim were a poor solution they
wouldn't use them on many aircraft (and that is a bunch of aircraft).
Our Army helicopters, many years ago, used forced trim on the cyclic.
We didn't have trim on the anti-torque pedals. Wasn't needed because
there was not that much back pressure to overcome. We used friction to
keep the collective in place.
Respectfully disagree with my buddy Rick N's comments below, reference
trim tabs. I believe his MKIIIs rudder trim tab works great. ;-) If
not, it should.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2018 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Bill
Yes this is a common practice. Did that on my MKIIIC. I have also seen
brackets that were made to allow the forward stabilizer to be moved up
and down to a number of different holes, they may be factory options.
Kolb does sell a optional universal joint that allows the wing angle of
attack to be fine tuned by moving washers around. Our planes fly best
when properly rigged. Trim tabs are usually a poor solution. Rudder trim
is the exception. Yes drooping the ailerons, trim tabs etc. will work
but why not fix the problem. An airplane flies faster using less fuel
when they aren't using control surfaces to fix rigging issues.
You are in a most dangerous point of learning to fly your Kolb. You
are/were a GA pilot and that works against you now. Take things slow.
Don't rush into the slow flight landings. I know where you are at. All
it takes is one approach to landing no power, maybe a slip too, You will
see the ground approaching much faster than you are used too. You
experience and training will kick in and will start your flair at
20-30'. With little extra airspeed, lots of drag and little
inertia.......Just don't do it. Do you like rebuilding airplanes?
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:29 PM Bill Berle <victorbravo@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
Thanks to everyone again for participating in this discussion. One of
the things I noticed on my brief flights so far is that I am holding the
stick forward with a few pounds of force for level flight. Not
"excessive" force, but it would get tiring after 20 or 30 minutes.
There were no trim tabs on this aircraft when I got it, and I have not
yet installed anything.
Is it considered acceptable or advisable to raise the leading edge of
the stabilizer by moving the forward attach bracket upwards by 1/8 or
1/4 inch, essentially changing the "decalage" angle? This would seem
like it could be a better solution that a bent aluminum trim tap riveted
to the elevator. I think I have seen this described on one of the
builder's websites in the past, but I have also seen photos of simple
trim tabs.
There are of course a number of other methods, including springs,
bungees, model airplane servos, etc. etc.
What I would like to ask the group is if one method is considered
better, or more appropriate than others.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and
for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 8/5/18, Richard Pike <thegreybaron@charter.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Sunday, August 5, 2018, 8:18 PM
Pike" <thegreybaron@charter.net>
Plan to fly for many hours with the
ailerons just like they are. Heavy ailerons are perfectly
normal for a Kolb. Once you know your airplane inside out,
you might want to try drilling a couple of holes in the
aileron bellcrank a bit closer to the pivot point and moving
the bottom ends of the aileron pushrods closer to the pivot;
it will change the leverage arm and the ailerons will become
much lighter.
You will lose some aileron deflection.
Possibly some control authority. Some on this list think
that is anathema, others are comfortable with it. Your call.
But after you have 50-75 hours in your airplane, you will be
able to decide for yourself, and if you don't like it; you
can put them back like they were.
In the meantime, everything that
Stuart, John and Larry - among others - have said is
absolutely correct. Kolbs have heavy ailerons, and they fly
just fine with heavy ailerons. So do Stearmans.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is
wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Bill B/Kolbers;
Homer Kolb called me his best test bed because in my early days of building and
flying Kolbs I broke a lot of them. I've flown a lot where you fly and a lot
of other places that have a lot of wind and turbulence. Never ran out of aileron
or ground looped my MKIII or any other aircraft.
My feelings about spades is not to install them on my airplane. I think the added
stress on the ailerons will prove detrimental down the road. I've never had
a problem with roll control on a Kolb, except a FF with small ailerons in some
terrific turbulence and rollers. Even then I bumped the stop on one side
and landed the aircraft safely. The UL airstrip at Lakeland is notorious for
high cross winds, turbulence, and a lot of stuff you cannot predict. It will
keep you busy.
If I was flying GA aircraft then jumped in a Kolb, with no Kolb experience, I'd
think the ailerons needed some boost. I fly only Kolbs and never think about
what it takes to maintain roll control. Never really had a problem keeping them
right side up.
I've never seen or heard of another Kolb with spades except Jet Pilot's MKIII.
A little difficult to follow Jet Pilot's posts back then. He seemed to be 180
degrees out from most of us unwashed, uneducated Kolbers. Haven't heard from
him in years. I can't remember if he ever flew his MKIII to Sun and Fun.
To me it seems spades will put undue stress on the ailerons. Wouldn't want to
lose one.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Rick Nielsen wrote: Do you like rebuilding airplanes?
Well I sure don't want to rebuild this one just yet. Took two years just to do
a "simple" engine swap because of a million little details.
I am in 100% agreement that this is a dangerous moment. Just enough time in the
airplane to know it is manageable, not enough time to know where it will bite
you.
The only thing I have in my favor (in the area of steep landing approaches) is
that I have a fair amount of experience flying gliders with powerful "dive brakes",
which allowed a very steep approach. This is of course not an exact match
for a Kolb UL style airplane, but it is a lot closer than the average long shallow
approach training they give you in a Cherokee or 172.
So my job at this stage will be to fly safely, don't do anything stupid, but still
begin to explore and learn how the airplane flies at different speeds and
power settings.
As far as the aileron heaviness issue, I have gone back to the archives and found
the old posts from "Jet Pilot" regarding the boosters/spades mounted on the
ailerons. It appears that Kolb Aircraft (Dennis) built these spade mounts to
rivet onto the aileron, and that Jet Pilot put 8 by 9 inch plates on these mounts.
From everyting I had read, he indicated that they worked well, and did not
"snatch" the stick out of his hands or cause any other significant problem.
Once again, I am NOT looking for an aerobatic aircraft. I am NOT going to go around
pretending to be a Top Gun combat pilot dogfighting with other aircraft.
But where I live we do have crosswinds, and gusts, and eddy currents from wind
flowing around hangars or trees. We do have people groundloop their Cubs and
T-crafts because of this. When a 15 knot crosswind represents 50% of the landing
speed of the aircraft, you do not want to run out of control to fight back
against a gust, or be unable to keep a wingtip off the ground.
Can anyone here on the Kolb list tell me anything positive or negative regarding
experimenting with the spades ? Does anybody here know Jet Pilot who did experiment
with the spades and found them to be useful?
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
John Hauck wrote:
>
> ..S..N..I..P..
>
> I seldom use flaps for takeoff, but when I do I normally start my roll clean,
then pop full flaps as I go through 30 mph. Soon as I am off the ground and gain
a tad of airspeed I ease the flaps back up.
>
>
> ..S..N..I..P..
>
Attached is a picture of John Hauck using his flaps to "jump off the ground" at
John B.'s Nauga Field in Louisiana. Notice his left hand on the flap handle.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482166#482166
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nauga_field_036a_687.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Just to be a little clearer on my flap adjustment for trim. When I'm alone at
cruse I usually use about 5 degrees of down flap for trim. The 5 degrees is measured
on the ground. Because of hysteresis (fancy word for mechanical slop)
and aerodynamic loading I suspect at cruse the flap is only 2 or 3 degrees down,
if that. I'm sure there is a drag penalty but it's comfortable to fly and
I don't care if it takes me an extra minute or so to fly 60 miles.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482167#482167
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Rex R got that right.
I can take my flap lever out of the detent while flying. It will seek a
position of 1/2 to 1/3 of the way between 0 and 20 degrees. The handle does
not move. It has found its happy place.
Has it increased or decreased drag in this position?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rex Rodebush
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 6:45 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Just to be a little clearer on my flap adjustment for trim. When I'm alone
at cruse I usually use about 5 degrees of down flap for trim. The 5 degrees
is measured on the ground. Because of hysteresis (fancy word for mechanical
slop) and aerodynamic loading I suspect at cruse the flap is only 2 or 3
degrees down, if that. I'm sure there is a drag penalty but it's
comfortable to fly and I don't care if it takes me an extra minute or so to
fly 60 miles.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482167#482167
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Thanks for posting that photo, George A. Brings back some fond memories of
days gone by.
Yep, I had just snatched the flap handle all the way down and the MKIII was
popping off the grass. She didn't roll far before she was airborne.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 6:43 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
John Hauck wrote:
>
> ..S..N..I..P..
>
> I seldom use flaps for takeoff, but when I do I normally start my roll
clean, then pop full flaps as I go through 30 mph. Soon as I am off the
ground and gain a tad of airspeed I ease the flaps back up.
>
>
> ..S..N..I..P..
>
Attached is a picture of John Hauck using his flaps to "jump off the ground"
at John B.'s Nauga Field in Louisiana. Notice his left hand on the flap
handle.
--------
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482166#482166
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/nauga_field_036a_687.jpg
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
Thank you all again for continuing this discussion, I am enjoying the exchange
of ideas and having new things to consider!
As regards to using the flaps for pitch trim, I have flown a type of aircraft that
uses the flaps for adjusting lift, trim, and drag at various speeds. In the
contest sailplanes they were essentially a primary control. However, my Firestar
does not have flaps and I doubt I would ever try to install them on this
aircraft. I'm a crazy tinkerer but I'm not that crazy :)
As for drooping the ailerons I'm worried that this would essentially create "wash-in"
or positive wing twist, which makes an aircraft more prone to having the
wingtip s stall first. Established principles for safe flight characteristics
show that you want the root end to stall first, with the stall progressing outward.
This usually provides safe and controllable behaviopr at low speeds. Almost
all of your certified light airplanes have a couple of degrees of nose-down
twist ("wash-out") at the wingtips... Cubs, Champs, T-crafts, etc.
I must agree with John H regarding the differences between re-rigging (adjusting
the "decalage" angle of the tail) versus bendable trim tabs. The difference
between doing this the technically correct way... and doing it the quick and dirty
way... are probably irrelevant at the speeds and drag levels that the Kolb
operates with. In fairness it is technically correct that adjusting the tail
angle is the "cleanest", "correct", and lowest drag way to get the airplane to
fly hands off. The plain aluminum trim tab is certainly 99% as good, John H's
success flying halfway around the world with plain old aluminum trim tabs certainly
bears this out.
Regarding the aileron spades / aerodynamic boosters, I have to say that it appears
to me that these spades would REDUCE the stress on the aileron tube as much
or more than they would create stress. The reason for this is that without the
spades you are twisting the entire 12 foot long aileron and its torque tube
from the root end, and applying all of the air resistance 8 or 9 feet away near
the other end. The outboard half of this tube (the aileron itself) is trying
to to oppose what you are doing at the inboard end (the control horn/attachment).
The more aileron deflection you put in, the more twisting force is put
through this 12 foot length of tube. If you had the spades, they would be "helping"
or "boosting" the ailerons to move in the SAME direction you want them to
move. Not resisting or opposing the movement. So they apply the twisting force
right at the aileron itself (where you want it), instead of just twisting the
whole tube harder at the (wrong) inboard end.
The number of rivets attaching the control horn to the root end of the aileron
tube is something like 6 or 8 if I recall. The number of rivets that Jet Pilot
used to attach his spades was 2 or 3 times that, spread out over a larger area.
I think that was overkill but that is what Dennis came up with.
So as long as you have adequate space (metal) between these rivet holes it seems
to me that you would not be weakening or wearing out the aileron tube any more
with the spades then you already do with the original control horn. Does this
make sense to anyone else besides me?
Before I experimented with anything like this I would continue to fly the aircraft
as-is for a while. I haven't even figured out at what speeds the ailerons
get heavy enough to be an annoyance.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
This spade thing may be like VGs. For years I was accused of not liking VGs because
I didn't them installed on my airplane. Tried to explain I didn't about
VGs one way or the other. I had no need for . I flew 6000+ hours in Kolbs without
VGs.
A couple years ago I got a set of STOL Speed VGs for wings and horizontal stabilizers
from John Gilpin. They lowered my stall speeds, gave me more control authority
at slow speeds, and help cushion my full stall landings. That said,
my Kolbs flew great without VGs, but not bad having a little help at 79. I don't
fly as well today as I did a few years back
Maybe someday I would install spades, but I'll let someone else do the experimentation
and testing. When they have all the bugs ironed, I might give'em a shot.
;-)
Homer Kolb's wing stalls inboard first, then outboard. Super forgiving. Gentle
stall. Will mush with full with full control. Doubt you will twist the wing
drooping the ailerons or flaps, especially the MKIII wing.
Slow down and the ailerons free up so you can slap the stick stop to stop. I don't
know what airspeed they start getting stiff, probably over 50 mph. 50 mph
is a good maneuver speed for a FS.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight
Thank you all again for continuing this discussion, I am enjoying the exchange
of ideas and having new things to consider!
As regards to using the flaps for pitch trim, I have flown a type of aircraft that
uses the flaps for adjusting lift, trim, and drag at various speeds. In the
contest sailplanes they were essentially a primary control. However, my Firestar
does not have flaps and I doubt I would ever try to install them on this
aircraft. I'm a crazy tinkerer but I'm not that crazy :)
As for drooping the ailerons I'm worried that this would essentially create "wash-in"
or positive wing twist, which makes an aircraft more prone to having the
wingtip s stall first. Established principles for safe flight characteristics
show that you want the root end to stall first, with the stall progressing outward.
This usually provides safe and controllable behaviopr at low speeds. Almost
all of your certified light airplanes have a couple of degrees of nose-down
twist ("wash-out") at the wingtips... Cubs, Champs, T-crafts, etc.
I must agree with John H regarding the differences between re-rigging (adjusting
the "decalage" angle of the tail) versus bendable trim tabs. The difference
between doing this the technically correct way... and doing it the quick and dirty
way... are probably irrelevant at the speeds and drag levels that the Kolb
operates with. In fairness it is technically correct that adjusting the tail
angle is the "cleanest", "correct", and lowest drag way to get the airplane to
fly hands off. The plain aluminum trim tab is certainly 99% as good, John H's
success flying halfway around the world with plain old aluminum trim tabs certainly
bears this out.
Regarding the aileron spades / aerodynamic boosters, I have to say that it appears
to me that these spades would REDUCE the stress on the aileron tube as much
or more than they would create stress. The reason for this is that without the
spades you are twisting the entire 12 foot long aileron and its torque tube
from the root end, and applying all of the air resistance 8 or 9 feet away near
the other end. The outboard half of this tube (the aileron itself) is trying
to to oppose what you are doing at the inboard end (the control horn/attachment).
The more aileron deflection you put in, the more twisting force is put
through this 12 foot length of tube. If you had the spades, they would be "helping"
or "boosting" the ailerons to move in the SAME direction you want them to
move. Not resisting or opposing the movement. So they apply the twisting force
right at the aileron itself (where you want it), instead of just twisting the
whole tube harder at the (wrong) inboard end.
The number of rivets attaching the control horn to the root end of the aileron
tube is something like 6 or 8 if I recall. The number of rivets that Jet Pilot
used to attach his spades was 2 or 3 times that, spread out over a larger area.
I think that was overkill but that is what Dennis came up with.
So as long as you have adequate space (metal) between these rivet holes it seems
to me that you would not be weakening or wearing out the aileron tube any more
with the spades then you already do with the original control horn. Does this
make sense to anyone else besides me?
Before I experimented with anything like this I would continue to fly the aircraft
as-is for a while. I haven't even figured out at what speeds the ailerons
get heavy enough to be an annoyance.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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Do your gear legs fit a Mark 3 classic. I might be interested if they do.
Thanks Vern
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482172#482172
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Subject: | Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight |
That makes sense, from what I have read John H has done more than his share of
testing and development over 30+ years of association with the Kolb design.
Jet Pilot has done some spade testing years ago, and found the spades to be promising.
So if my soon-to-be Kolb experience leads me to explore the possibility
of spades to lighten the stick force, then I will gladly step up to the plate
and experiment with them.
Considering that the Kolb community has shared many years of experience and assistance
with me, doing this testing and sharing whatever data or results are gained
is the least I could do. I would have an obligation to "put my aluminum
where my mouth is" :)
Bill Berle
Firestar 2 / HKS
Los Angeles, CA
Hauck" <jhauck@elmore.rr.com>
This spade thing may be like VGs.For years I was accused of not liking VGs because
I didn't them installed on my airplane. Tried to explain I
didn't about VGs one way or the other. I had no need for . I flew 6000+ hours
in Kolbs without VGs.
A couple years ago I got a set of STOL Speed VGs for wings and horizontal stabilizers
from John Gilpin. They lowered my stall speeds, gave me more control authority
at slow speeds, and help cushion my full stall landings. That said, my
Kolbs flew great without VGs, but not bad having a little help at 79. I don't
fly as well today as I did a few years back
Maybe someday I would install spades, but I'll let someone else do the experimentation
and testing. When they have all the bugs ironed, I might give'em a shot.
;-)
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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Also, if anyone is in need of this, I have a set of the original aluminum Firestar
gear legs. Might be useful for someone trying to keep a Firestar (or perhaps)
Firefly as light as possible.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
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On Tue, 8/7/18, Vern <verdixbo@sisqtel.net> wrote:
Subject: Kolb-List: Re: gear legs
To: kolb-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2018, 7:59 PM
<verdixbo@sisqtel.net>
Do your gear legs fit a Mark 3 classic.
I might be interested if they do.
Thanks Vern
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482172#482172
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