---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/10/18: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:34 AM - Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (JC Gilpin) 2. 02:08 PM - Spads (Rick Neilsen) 3. 03:17 PM - Re: Spads (John Hauck) 4. 03:57 PM - Re: Kolb-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 08/09/18 (Tim Hrib) 5. 04:08 PM - Re: Spads (james.vanlaak@gmail.com) 6. 04:49 PM - Re: Spads (Bill) 7. 05:11 PM - Re: Spads (Larry Cottrell) 8. 05:50 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Russ Kinne) 9. 06:07 PM - Spades (james.vanlaak@gmail.com) 10. 07:34 PM - Re: Spads (John Hauck) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:59 AM PST US From: JC Gilpin Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Sure wish folks would get into the habit of deleting the ever increasing tail of previous posts that follow their post....... JG ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:48 PM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Kolb-List: Spads Hi decided to change the subject line. See the attached. I made these Spads better than ten years ago but never tired them. They fit in the fixture where the aileron balance weights go. Even drilled them to allow (I think) for the wing tip vortex. Was going to try one on one side first so if it snatched or ripped something off the plane I might still have aileron control. Then I got concerned and never went any further. Thoughts Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:17:24 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Spads You might have had a problem testing with one spade. If I decided to take on that task I'd do it with two. Seems to me the spades need to balanced. One spade would be severely out of balance, nothing to counteract the single spade except stick force. Might be a hand full. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Neilsen Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 4:08 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Spads Was going to try one on one side first so if it snatched or ripped something off the plane I might still have aileron control. Then I got concerned and never went any further. Thoughts Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:56 PM PST US From: Tim Hrib Subject: Kolb-List: Re: Kolb-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 08/09/18 i weigh 260 lbs... am i too heavy for a Firestar/Firefly? ________________________________ From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Kolb-List Digest Server Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 2:36 AM Subject: Kolb-List Digest: 21 Msgs - 08/09/18 * ======================== Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ======================== Today's complete Kolb-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Kolb-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=htm l&Chapter 18-08-09&Archive=Kolb Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt &Chapter 18-08-09&Archive=Kolb ======================== ======================= EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive ======================== ======================= ---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 08/09/18: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (Gary Aman) 2. 05:10 AM - Re: Firestar/HKS First Flight (John Hauck) 3. 10:15 AM - Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Bill Berle) 4. 11:26 AM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 5. 11:27 AM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Stuart Harner) 6. 11:44 AM - Speed (Ted Cowan) 7. 11:45 AM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 8. 11:48 AM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 9. 12:01 PM - Re: Speed (John Hauck) 10. 12:51 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Bill Berle) 11. 01:23 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (George Helton) 12. 01:26 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Stuart Harner) 13. 01:51 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 14. 02:35 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 15. 02:47 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Gary Aman) 16. 02:58 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (Bill Berle) 17. 03:22 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 18. 03:39 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (George Helton) 19. 04:00 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (John Hauck) 20. 04:27 PM - Re: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 (George Helton) 21. 05:58 PM - Re: Re: gear legs (Russ Kinne) ________________________________ Message 1 ______________________________ _______ Time: 04:26:42 AM PST US From: Gary Aman Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Spades do counter balance each other but control ease is their intended fun ction Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 12:42 AM, Bill Berle wrote : > > > Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually workin g AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: > > My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > ________________________________ Message 2 ______________________________ _______ Time: 05:10:12 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight i s added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a pro blem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of e ach aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering th e traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on t he edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough f light, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wonderin g how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was s till susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into s evere flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weigh ts from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flut ter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron beca use they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious ________________________________ Message 3 ______________________________ _______ Time: 10:15:52 AM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works a gainst flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I hav e described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the righ t significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies th e stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slo w..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous powe r (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the pro peller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the part s to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail b y 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance up grade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for no n-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 ______________________________ _______ Time: 11:26:43 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 There is in offset in the engine mount on any standard Kolb. I spent a lot of time and effort experimenting with engine off set to corre ct trim my perceived trim problems in my FS. All was for naught. Best left just like Homer Kolb designed. I did the same with the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Aga in, a waste of time. Best left centered like indicated on the plan sheet. Brother Jim fabricated the first pair of adjustable forward horizontal stab ilizer mounts. Had 3 choices of angle. I flew off most of the 40 hours on the or iginal factory MKIII. I knew what we needed to make my MKIII right. Same for moving the main gear forward, and many other modifications that were all bl essed by Homer Kolb the morning after we would make them the night before. Many of our mods were incorporated in subsequent MKIII airframes and other Kolb models from changes we made to mine, SN: M3-11. When I got to Homer's first of Jan 1991, 10 air frames had been fabricated. Brother Jim had gotten to Hom er's around the first of Dec 1990, the help out with some welding, when both Hom er's welders were laid up with health problems. I experimented with all three positions, but the center position was where the aircraft settled down and felt comfortable. The other two positions made the MKIII feel like it was ridin g on a ball. Keep wanting to fall off in all different directions. Not fun to fly. We cured the adverse yaw problem after many hours and a 17,200 mile flight. On that flight I flew a half ball out of trim the entire way. I'm still a hal f ball out of trim, but the MKIII flies straight and level by doubling the si ze of the rudder trim tab. The prop wash comes off the engine twisting, hits the left side of the vertical stabilizer and the top of the left horizontal sta bilizer. This is verified by crank case ventilation depositing oil and fuel spray on those surfaces and no place else. It is normal to have the aircraft want to drop the nose before some form of pitch trim is installed. Primarily because it is a high mounted pusher. Looks l ike Berle's Kolb could have raised the engine to run a longer prop. However, there is something that needs to be tweaked to get the aircraft to fly leve l. A few ways to do it: 1-forced trim, 2-elevator trim tab, and horizontal st abilizer. On a FS I'd go with an elevator trim tab which is adjustable, simple, and easy to install. Doesn't take a lot of trim tab to get the job done, a nd if it does it is a good way to correct a pitch problem. However, adverse p itch trim up ain't normal and should be thoroughly investigated. Has your ASI been calibrated? Most are not very accurate at slow speeds. I fly out and back on reverse headings at a constant airspeed, add them together and divide by 2 to get ASI error. May or may not help at very slow speeds. Yo u can also use a GPS, which is ground speed only, on a calm day, to get a pre tty good idea of ASI calibration. You should be at 30 or lower before stall. My MKIII will easily hit 30, sometimes less. Because a Cub and your engine turn the same way does not mean that the airc raft response will be the same. One's a tractor and one's a pusher, IMHO. Ailerons move very little in flight to get the results you are looking for. They are oversized. I reduced the area of my ailerons when I built my MKIII kno wing I had a lot more aileron than I needed. Homer designed his aircraft primar ily for safe, very slow flight, to be able to stay in contact with what was happening in the trees and on the ground he was flying over. Cut the ailer on cord in half and you may get the results you are looking for. I believe adverse yaw is caused by prop wash primarily. A rudder trim tab corrects that problem. With less than an hour's flight time, if it was me, I'd get out there and l earn how to fly the aircraft before I decided to change anything unless it was a bsolutely unsafe to fly in that condition. It takes some hours to learn your Kolb. Especially in your case where you came from GA. I came from helicopters and had no problem flying Kolbs. To me, they were a lot like rotary wing. Wow! My mind has a severe case of diarrhea, but the above are my thoughts on the situation. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works a gainst flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I hav e described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the righ t significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies th e stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slo w..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous powe r (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the pro peller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the part s to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail b y 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance u pgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals f or non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 5 ______________________________ _______ Time: 11:27:17 AM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Hi Bill, Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, the n repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect bu t is good for a quick verification. Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly th e same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had quite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the c onclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the ri ght side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher config uration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "s traighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don' t change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confuse yours elf and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-relate d they seem. Been there, done that. Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared to "cruise"? You're doing great! Keep it up. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works a gainst flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I hav e described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the righ t significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies th e stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slo w..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous powe r (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the pro peller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the part s to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail b y 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance u pgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balan ce aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fab ricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right ou t of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I cou ld get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, t o Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I w as going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron cont rol linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a gh ost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lak eland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I st uck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation .. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 ______________________________ _______ Time: 11:44:26 AM PST US From: Ted Cowan Subject: Kolb-List: Speed Howdy Hauk. Didnt mean to say my Ss was better'n yorn. Apples and organ ges. If I loaded mine as you do yours I wouldnt get off the ground!! I merely meant what I said. Been up to 110 mph indicated, 100 many times. Never tried wot straight. Would do my vne or close. Yo u see my friend, your driving a great big beautiful truck while I am a little fas t sports car. Looking to fly with you again some day. You need to go to Tho masville in october. Greatest flyin there is. Take care all and have fun with your new toys. Ted cowan SS 912 zoom zoom Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 7 ______________________________ _______ Time: 11:45:04 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 First sentence should have read, "There is no offset in the engine mount on standard Kolb aircraft". Sorry about that. I even proof read this one a couple times. I'll blame that on age. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:26 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 There is in offset in the engine mount on any standard Kolb. I spent a lot of time and effort experimenting with engine off set to corre ct trim my perceived trim problems in my FS. All was for naught. Best left just like Homer Kolb designed. I did the same with the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Aga in, a waste of time. Best left centered like indicated on the plan sheet. Brother Jim fabricated the first pair of adjustable forward horizontal stab ilizer mounts. Had 3 choices of angle. I flew off most of the 40 hours on the or iginal factory MKIII. I knew what we needed to make my MKIII right. Same for moving the main gear forward, and many other modifications that were all bl essed by Homer Kolb the morning after we would make them the night before. Many of our mods were incorporated in subsequent MKIII airframes and other Kolb models from changes we made to mine, SN: M3-11. When I got to Homer's first of Jan 1991, 10 air frames had been fabricated. Brother Jim had gotten to Hom er's around the first of Dec 1990, the help out with some welding, when both Hom er's welders were laid up with health problems. I experimented with all three positions, but the center position was where the aircraft settled down and felt comfortable. The other two positions made the MKIII feel like it was ridin g on a ball. Keep wanting to fall off in all diffe! rent directions. Not fun to fly. We cured the adverse yaw problem after many hours and a 17,200 mile flight. On that flight I flew a half ball out of trim the entire way. I'm still a hal f ball out of trim, but the MKIII flies straight and level by doubling the si ze of the rudder trim tab. The prop wash comes off the engine twisting, hits the left side of the vertical stabilizer and the top of the left horizontal sta bilizer. This is verified by crank case ventilation depositing oil and fuel spray on those surfaces and no place else. It is normal to have the aircraft want to drop the nose before some form of pitch trim is installed. Primarily because it is a high mounted pusher. Looks l ike Berle's Kolb could have raised the engine to run a longer prop. However, there is something that needs to be tweaked to get the aircraft to fly leve l. A few ways to do it: 1-forced trim, 2-elevator trim tab, and horizontal st abilizer. On a FS I'd go with an elevator trim tab which is adjustable, simple, and easy to install. Doesn't take a lot of trim tab to get the job done, a nd if it does it is a good way to correct a pitch problem. However, adverse p itch trim up ain't normal and should be thoroughly investigated. Has your ASI been calibrated? Most are not very accurate at slow speeds. I fly out and back on reverse headings at a constant airspeed, add them together and divide by 2 to get ASI error. May or may not help at very slow speeds. Yo u can also use a GPS, which is ground speed only, on a calm day, to get a pre tty good idea of ASI calibration. You should be at 30 or lower before stall. My MKIII will easily hit 30, sometimes less. Because a Cub and your engine turn the same way does not mean that the airc raft response will be the same. One's a tractor and one's a pusher, IMHO. Ailerons move very little in flight to get the results you are looking for. They are oversized. I reduced the area of my ailerons when I built my MKIII kno wing I had a lot more aileron than I needed. Homer designed his aircraft primar ily for safe, very slow flight, to be able to stay in contact with what was happening in the trees and on the ground he was flying over. Cut the ailer on cord in half and you may get the results you are looking for. I believe adverse yaw is caused by prop wash primarily. A rudder trim tab corrects that problem. With less than an hour's flight time, if it was me, I'd get out there and l earn how to fly the aircraft before I decided to change anything unless it was a bsolutely unsafe to fly in that condition. It takes some hours to learn your Kolb. Especially in your case where you came from GA. I came from helicopters and had no problem flying Kolbs. To me, they were a lot like rotary wing. Wow! My mind has a severe case of diarrhea, but the above are my thoughts on the situation. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works a gainst flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I hav e described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the righ t significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies th e stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slo w..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous powe r (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the pro peller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the part s to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail b y 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance u pgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals f or non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 8 ______________________________ _______ Time: 11:48:29 AM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Kolbs produce negligible P-factor. Can't remember where I got that tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash on the tail section, as you ment ioned. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:27 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Hi Bill, Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, the n repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect bu t is good for a quick verification. Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly th e same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had quite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the c onclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the ri ght side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher config uration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "s traighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don' t change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confuse yours elf and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-relate d they seem. Been there, done that. Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared to "cruise"? You're doing great! Keep it up. Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works a gainst flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I hav e described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the righ t significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies th e stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slo w..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous powe r (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the pro peller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the part s to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail b y 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance u pgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balan ce aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fab ricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right ou t of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I cou ld get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, t o Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I w as going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron cont rol linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a gh ost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lak eland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I st uck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation .. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 9 ______________________________ _______ Time: 12:01:21 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Speed I flew Gantt International Airport, Titus, AL, to Tallahassee to Thomasville, back to Tallahassee, then home to Alabama, in 1984, in my Ultrastar. Was my first long cross country in an UL, 600 sm. You couldn't wipe the grin off my face. I had to read my map, remember heading, time to fly, land marks, etc., before I took off because I had to sit on my sectional to keep it from blowing away. Those flights in the US were made with mag compass and my watch, until I landed and refreshed my memory for the next leg. It was very exciting to being doing this in that little airplane. Never forget the feeling. You got that right about the truck. Just need to add flying truck. Miss P'fer is like a UH-1 Huey. When necessary, sometimes, they can be coached into the air loaded far greater than authorized gross weight. Never had a problem getting my MKIII to fly not matter how she is loaded. I am very much aware of what it feels like to fly a MKIII and a SS. I always had a ball flying the SS. Brother Jim and I had a similar aircraft designed many years before Kolb Aircraft developed the SS. We just didn't have the time or money to get it done. Now I'm too old to mess with it. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted Cowan Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:44 PM Subject: Kolb-List: Speed Howdy Hauk. Didnt mean to say my Ss was better'n yorn. Apples and organges. If I loaded mine as you do yours I wouldnt get off the ground!! I merely meant what I said. Been up to 110 mph indicated, 100 many times. Never tried wot straight. Would do my vne or close. Yo u see my friend, your driving a great big beautiful truck while I am a little fast sports car. Looking to fly with you again some day. You need to go t o Thomasville in october. Greatest flyin there is. Take care all and have fun with your new toys. Ted cowan SS 912 zoom zoom Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 10 _____________________________ _______ Time: 12:51:11 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 First sentence should have read, "There is no offset in the engine mount o n standard Kolb aircraft". Thank you for that information, that allows me to eliminate one possible ca use. I was really hoping that I didn't have to make another offset engine mount plate to straighten out a built-in offset.. The explanation about the air swirling around from the prop and hitting one side of the tail more than the other makes sense to me, I can see that as being a possibility. What I have to do in order to verify that is to make a power-o ff glide. My model airplane experience tells me that if it glides straight the n it's an engine thrust offset problem, and if it needs the rudder in the gli de then it's some kind of an airframe construction/damage/repair/warp issue. To answer a question that was raised about the elevator force during the st all, it was almost the same as in level flight. I allowed the speed to drop off very slowly, so I was holding the same amount of pressure, maybe just a tiny lit tle bit less, in order to reach stall speed. I can 100% say that I did not have to "pull" the stick back to stall it like you have to do on a C-172. What I did was the exact opposite of the dramatic exaggerated "airshow" stall wher e you make the airplane rear up like a horse and then stop in mid-air. This was a level flight textbook stall. If I am remembering correctly, I believe it was Rex and Richard who mention ed they had successfully raised the front of the stabilizer to re-rig the pitch on the aircraft. I think it was Richard's EXCELLENT "Old Poops" website that I researched on this as well (THANK YOU for this website).The figure of 7/8 of an inch was mentioned, and I purposely went just a little less than that to be conservative. I have reasonably high confidence that the aircarft will still be very controllable with this change. The Cessna 180 / 182 and the Piper fabr ic aircraft all use the leading edge of the stabilizer for pitch trim, and the stabilizer travels far more than 3/4 of an inch. But I'll make sure I am paying attention during the takeoff roll to see if it is trying to nose over. If i t is doing that excessively I will abort the takeoff roll. John H mentioned reducing the chord of the ailerons. I would try to not hav e to do that, because it creates the possibility of not having enough control in an emergency. After all the discussion about the Kolb's heavy ailerons, and ha ving read a lot about it by now, my question is why are the ailerons still heavy at very low speeds? I understand 100% that the big ailerons will tend to ge t difficult at 70-80 MPH, and that it is just part of the design. Got that lo ud and clear. But several experienced Kolbers have said that slowing the airplane down wi ll make most of this problem go away. My Firestar ailerons are not as heavy as Jimm y O'Neal's Mark 3 was, but they are still somewhat heavy, even down at 40 MPH .. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking time and energy to participate in this discussion and offer their opinion/experience. Bill Berle Los Angeles -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:26 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 "John Hauck" There is in offset in the engine mount on any standard Kolb. I spent a lot of time and effort experimenting with engine off set to correct trim my perceived trim problems in my FS. All was for naught. Best left just like Homer Kolb designed. I did the same with the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Again, a waste of time. Best left centered like indicated on the plan sheet. Brother Jim fabricated the first pair of adjustable forward horizontal stabilizer mounts. Had 3 choices of angle. I flew off most of the 40 hours on the original factory MKIII. I knew what we needed to make my MKIII right. Same for moving the main gear forward, and many other modifications that were all blessed by Homer Kolb the morning after we would make them the night before. Many of our mods were incorporated in subsequent MKIII airframes and other Kolb models from changes we made to mine, SN: M3-11. When I got to Homer's first of Jan 1991, 10 air frames had been fabricated. Brother Jim had gotten to Homer's around the first of Dec 1990, the help out with some welding, when both Homer's welders were laid up with health problems. I experimented with all three positions, but the center position was where the aircraft settled down and felt comfortable. The other two positions made the MKIII feel like it was riding on a ball. Keep wanting to fall off in all diffe! rent directions. Not fun to fly. We cured the adverse yaw problem after many hours and a 17,200 mile flight. On that flight I flew a half ball out of trim the entire way. I'm still a half ball out of trim, but the MKIII flies straight and level by doubling the size of the rudder trim tab. The prop wash comes off the engine twisting, hits the left side of the vertical stabilizer and the top of the left horizontal stabilizer. This is verified by crank case ventilation depositing oil and fuel spray on those surfaces and no place else. It is normal to have the aircraft want to drop the nose before some form of pitch trim is installed. Primarily because it is a high mounted pusher. Looks like Berle's Kolb could have raised the engine to run a longer prop. However, there is something that needs to be tweaked to get the aircraft to fly level. A few ways to do it: 1-forced trim, 2-elevator trim tab, and horizontal stabilizer. On a FS I'd go with an elevator trim tab which is adjustable, simple, and easy to install. Doesn't take a lot of trim tab to get the job done, and if it does it is a good way to correct a pitch problem. However, adverse pitch trim up ain't normal and should be thoroughly investigated. Has your ASI been calibrated? Most are not very accurate at slow speeds. I fly out and back on reverse headings at a constant airspeed, add them together and divide by 2 to get ASI error. May or may not help at very slow speeds. You can also use a GPS, which is ground speed only, on a calm day, to get a pretty good idea of ASI calibration. You should be at 30 or lower before stall. My MKIII will easily hit 30, sometimes less. Because a Cub and your engine turn the same way does not mean that the aircraft response will be the same. One's a tractor and one's a pusher, IMHO. Ailerons move very little in flight to get the results you are looking for. They are oversized. I reduced the area of my ailerons when I built my MKIII knowing I had a lot more aileron than I needed. Homer designed his aircraft primarily for safe, very slow flight, to be able to stay in contact with what was happening in the trees and on the ground he was flying over. Cut the aileron cord in half and you may get the results you are looking for. I believe adverse yaw is caused by prop wash primarily. A rudder trim tab corrects that problem. With less than an hour's flight time, if it was me, I'd get out there and learn how to fly the aircraft before I decided to change anything unless it was absolutely unsafe to fly in that condition. It takes some hours to learn your Kolb. Especially in your case where you came from GA. I came from helicopters and had no problem flying Kolbs. To me, they were a lot like rotary wing. Wow! My mind has a severe case of diarrhea, but the above are my thoughts on the situation. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Bill Berle Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other aircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the parts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the airplane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM "John Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 11 _____________________________ _______ Time: 01:23:24 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Well guys, we have sure beaten this thread to death. And this I hope this will be the last of my input. Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. Youve now entered the world of flyin g an all new category of flight. You have developed some habits that will not se rve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former ultralight instructor I c an say with confidence that the worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots because, They already knew how to fly. That being said, youre not flying a 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butter fly or hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in wind direct ion, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines will change whats going on infli ght. Ultralights are not aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. Throttle back, down. Rudder is everythin g, learn to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, feet, feet ... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at cruise push it dow n and you might want to adjust you throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your thro ttle in slowly on takeoff and reduce it slowly upon approach. Fly the friggin plane. Youre in charge. Fly it all the way to the ground and then keep flying it. Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn to fly it well. Get 50 ho urs in the air and on the ground in it and then maybe we might change some thin gs. Flying is easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > Kolbs produce negligible P-factor. Can't remember where I got that tidbi t. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash on the tail section, as you mentioned. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:27 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > > Hi Bill, > > Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. > > First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedomet er (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, the n repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect bu t is good for a quick verification. > > Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had q uite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the c onclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the ri ght side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher config uration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "s traighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. > > Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail unti l you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don' t change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confus e yourself and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they seem. Been there, done that. > > Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent an d climb out compared to "cruise"? > > You're doing great! Keep it up. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > > Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safe ty issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or e qual the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. > > Test Flight Report for flight #2 > > I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. > > The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I h ave described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 mil es per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft . I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabi lizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. > > Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. Th e aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the pro peller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. > > I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the ri ght significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified t his without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. > > So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would ha ve been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm hav ing trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. > > One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This see ms pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. > > This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get th e lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. > > The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy aileron s getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, bu t the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). > > I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engi ne RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into t he propeller before the next test flight. > > After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the pa rts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tai l by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. > > Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firesta r 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded en gine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM > > Hauck" > > True. Some. But not enough to get > the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of bala nce aileron. > > When I originally built my MKIII, > before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fa bricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right ou t of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I cou ld get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. > > Right about 85 mph, where the airplane > and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence woul d set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, t o Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. > > I was getting ready to do my flight > around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron cont rol linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. > > Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun > Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a g host and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lak eland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful a nd I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying wi th flutter for 10 years by this time. > > Don't know why my design didn't work, > but Kolb's did. > > My design was ahead of the hinge line > with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I s tuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation .. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS > First Flight > > Bill Berle > > Spades will add weight forward of the > hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber > wrote: > > My understanding is that spades > are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 12 _____________________________ _______ Time: 01:26:29 PM PST US From: "Stuart Harner" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Bill, I may have missed it, but where is the CG with pilot and full fuel? What yo u are describing sounds almost like a tail heavy condition. Trying to trim out an aft CG would not be a good thing. Do you see significant elevator force changes with changes in power? Stuart -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 2:51 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 First sentence should have read, "There is no offset in the engine mount o n standard Kolb aircraft". Thank you for that information, that allows me to eliminate one possible ca use. I was really hoping that I didn't have to make another offset engine mount plate to straighten out a built-in offset.. The explanation about the air swirling around from the prop and hitting one side of the tail more than the other makes sense to me, I can see that as being a possibility. What I have to do in order to verify that is to make a power-o ff glide. My model airplane experience tells me that if it glides straight the n it's an engine thrust offset problem, and if it needs the rudder in the gli de then it's some kind of an airframe construction/damage/repair/warp issue. To answer a question that was raised about the elevator force during the st all, it was almost the same as in level flight. I allowed the speed to drop off very slowly, so I was holding the same amount of pressure, maybe just a tiny lit tle bit less, in order to reach stall speed. I can 100% say that I did not have to "pull" the stick back to stall it like you have to do on a C-172. What I did was the exact opposite of the dramatic exaggerated "airshow" stall wher e you make the airplane rear up like a horse and then stop in mid-air. This was a level flight textbook stall. If I am remembering correctly, I believe it was Rex and Richard who mention ed they had successfully raised the front of the stabilizer to re-rig the pitch on the aircraft. I think it was Richard's EXCELLENT "Old Poops" website that I researched on this as well (THANK YOU for this website).The figure of 7/8 of an inch was mentioned, and I purposely went just a little less than that to be conservative. I have reasonably high confidence that the aircarft will still be very controllable with this change. The Cessna 180 / 182 and the Piper fabr ic aircraft all use the leading edge of the stabilizer for pitch trim, and the stabilizer travels far more than 3/4 of an inch. But I'll make sure I am paying attention during the takeoff roll to see if it is trying to nose over. If i t is doing that excessively I will abort the takeoff roll. John H mentioned reducing the chord of the ailerons. I would try to not hav e to do that, because it creates the possibility of not having enough control in an emergency. After all the discussion about the Kolb's heavy ailerons, and ha ving read a lot about it by now, my question is why are the ailerons still heavy at very low speeds? I understand 100% that the big ailerons will tend to ge t difficult at 70-80 MPH, and that it is just part of the design. Got that lo ud and clear. But several experienced Kolbers have said that slowing the airplane down wi ll make most of this problem go away. My Firestar ailerons are not as heavy as Jimm y O'Neal's Mark 3 was, but they are still somewhat heavy, even down at 40 MPH .. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking time and energy to participate in this discussion and offer their opinion/experience. Bill Berle Los Angeles ________________________________ Message 13 _____________________________ _______ Time: 01:51:10 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 If you have a 60 to 80 or more mph wind blowing on the side of the rudder a nd vertical stab, on a Kolb, it will turn the aircraft. In small increments I started out with 3/4" offset of forward edge of the upper vertical stabilizer and ended up with 1 1/4" offset. The effect was negligible. The rudder trim t ab, a large one, fixed the problem. Screwing with the vertical stab was a wast e of time, but was the only way to find out if it would work. I tried to get Kolb to punch a lot of extra holes in the tail boom, but they never got around to it. I think New Kolb may have put that change in the plans for a MKIIIx , but didn't keep it there long. More than several folks have gotten into a mush stall in a Kolb, never real izing this, until it hit the ground. Completely controllable, but it would not c limb or maintain altitude. Years ago I calculated the rate of decent in feet pe r minute when the Kolb was in a mush. I don't remember all the numbers, but it was very, very close to the rate of decent of a T-10 parachute, 18 feet a second, that we jumped back in the 1950 and 60s. At that rate you shouldn't get hurt, but the aircraft will. That was for my FS. Never computed for my MK III. Stalls in Kolbs are nonevents unless very close to the ground. Then you wi ll get hurt, as will your aircraft. In order to make a classic stall you have to pull the nose up and hold the stick back to make it look like you really st alled, like Bill B said. Kolbs will spin. My FS with engine at idle, controls crossed up and locked , would not do a full turn before it flew out of the stall with the controls still crossed up. I was doing aerobatics at the Ultralight Flight Farm, Monterey , NY, in 1989, with my FS. I was able to do power off loops. Start out at 8 ,000 feet over the farm, nose straight down, when it hit 90 mph, I initiated the loop. Got to where I could do two or three loops before I ran out of altit ude and land. I could not restart the 447 by hand after it cooled off which on ly took a couple minutes during glide. I was messing around engine off one da y, and decided to try an engine off stall. Went right into it and the FS spun up like a top. I think this had something to do with that big disc when the e ngine was at idle. Needless to say, I was very surprised. I've gotten into a lot of arguments about the difference in drag with engine at idle and dead stick. Some folks say there is none. I know better, and it is easy to demonstrate .. Where were we? Your ailerons are still heavy at slow speeds because they are huge compared to what is really required for safe flight. Plus...it's a Kolb. ;-) Jimmy O's MKIII was the result of someone changing the geometry of the aile ron control system. The original owner had a terrible time contending with tha t problem. Sometimes, most of the time, it is not wise to try to reengineer a designer 's work. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 2:51 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 First sentence should have read, "There is no offset in the engine mount o n standard Kolb aircraft". Thank you for that information, that allows me to eliminate one possible ca use. I was really hoping that I didn't have to make another offset engine mount plate to straighten out a built-in offset.. The explanation about the air swirling around from the prop and hitting one side of the tail more than the other makes sense to me, I can see that as being a possibility. What I have to do in order to verify that is to make a power-o ff glide. My model airplane experience tells me that if it glides straight the n it's an engine thrust offset problem, and if it needs the rudder in the gli de then it's some kind of an airframe construction/damage/repair/warp issue. To answer a question that was raised about the elevator force during the st all, it was almost the same as in level flight. I allowed the speed to drop off very slowly, so I was holding the same amount of pressure, maybe just a tiny lit tle bit less, in order to reach stall speed. I can 100% say that I did not have to "pull" the stick back to stall it like you have to do on a C-172. What I did was the exact opposite of the dramatic exaggerated "airshow" stall wher e you make the airplane rear up like a horse and then stop in mid-air. This was a level flight textbook stall. If I am remembering correctly, I believe it was Rex and Richard who mention ed they had successfully raised the front of the stabilizer to re-rig the pitch on the aircraft. I think it was Richard's EXCELLENT "Old Poops" website that I researched on this as well (THANK YOU for this website).The figure of 7/8 of an inch was mentioned, and I purposely went just a little less than that to be conservative. I have reasonably high confidence that the aircarft will still be very controllable with this change. The Cessna 180 / 182 and the Piper fabr ic aircraft all use the leading edge of the stabilizer for pitch trim, and the stabilizer travels far more than 3/4 of an inch. But I'll make sure I am paying attention during the takeoff roll to see if it is trying to nose over. If i t is doing that excessively I will abort the takeoff roll. John H mentioned reducing the chord of the ailerons. I would try to not hav e to do that, because it creates the possibility of not having enough control in an emergency. After all the discussion about the Kolb's heavy ailerons, and ha ving read a lot about it by now, my question is why are the ailerons still heavy at very low speeds? I understand 100% that the big ailerons will tend to ge t difficult at 70-80 MPH, and that it is just part of the design. Got that lo ud and clear. But several experienced Kolbers have said that slowing the airplane down wi ll make most of this problem go away. My Firestar ailerons are not as heavy as Jimm y O'Neal's Mark 3 was, but they are still somewhat heavy, even down at 40 MPH .. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking time and energy to participate in this discussion and offer their opinion/experience. Bill Berle Los Angeles -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:26 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 "John Hauck" There is in offset in the engine mount on any standard Kolb. I spent a lot of time and effort experimenting with engine off set to correct trim my perceived trim problems in my FS. All was for naught. Best left just like Homer Kolb designed. I did the same with the leading edge of the upper vertical stabilizer. Again, a waste of time. Best left centered like indicated on the plan sheet. Brother Jim fabricated the first pair of adjustable forward horizontal stabilizer mounts. Had 3 choices of angle. I flew off most of the 40 hours on the original factory MKIII. I knew what we needed to make my MKIII right. Same for moving the main gear forward, and many other modifications that were all blessed by Homer Kolb the morning after we would make them the night before. Many of our mods were incorporated in subsequent MKIII airframes and other Kolb models from changes we made to mine, SN: M3-11. When I got to Homer's first of Jan 1991, 10 air frames had been fabricated. Brother Jim had gotten to Homer's around the first of Dec 1990, the help out with some welding, when both Homer's welders were laid up with health problems. I experimented with all three positions, but the center position was where the aircraft settled down and felt comfortable. The other two positions made the MKIII feel like it was riding on a ball. Keep wanting to fall off in all diffe! rent directions. Not fun to fly. We cured the adverse yaw problem after many hours and a 17,200 mile flight. On that flight I flew a half ball out of trim the entire way. I'm still a half ball out of trim, but the MKIII flies straight and level by doubling the size of the rudder trim tab. The prop wash comes off the engine twisting, hits the left side of the vertical stabilizer and the top of the left horizontal stabilizer. This is verified by crank case ventilation depositing oil and fuel spray on those surfaces and no place else. It is normal to have the aircraft want to drop the nose before some form of pitch trim is installed. Primarily because it is a high mounted pusher. Looks like Berle's Kolb could have raised the engine to run a longer prop. However, there is something that needs to be tweaked to get the aircraft to fly level. A few ways to do it: 1-forced trim, 2-elevator trim tab, and horizontal stabilizer. On a FS I'd go with an elevator trim tab which is adjustable, simple, and easy to install. Doesn't take a lot of trim tab to get the job done, and if it does it is a good way to correct a pitch problem. However, adverse pitch trim up ain't normal and should be thoroughly investigated. Has your ASI been calibrated? Most are not very accurate at slow speeds. I fly out and back on reverse headings at a constant airspeed, add them together and divide by 2 to get ASI error. May or may not help at very slow speeds. You can also use a GPS, which is ground speed only, on a calm day, to get a pretty good idea of ASI calibration. You should be at 30 or lower before stall. My MKIII will easily hit 30, sometimes less. Because a Cub and your engine turn the same way does not mean that the aircraft response will be the same. One's a tractor and one's a pusher, IMHO. Ailerons move very little in flight to get the results you are looking for. They are oversized. I reduced the area of my ailerons when I built my MKIII knowing I had a lot more aileron than I needed. Homer designed his aircraft primarily for safe, very slow flight, to be able to stay in contact with what was happening in the trees and on the ground he was flying over. Cut the aileron cord in half and you may get the results you are looking for. I believe adverse yaw is caused by prop wash primarily. A rudder trim tab corrects that problem. With less than an hour's flight time, if it was me, I'd get out there and learn how to fly the aircraft before I decided to change anything unless it was absolutely unsafe to fly in that condition. It takes some hours to learn your Kolb. Especially in your case where you came from GA. I came from helicopters and had no problem flying Kolbs. To me, they were a lot like rotary wing. Wow! My mind has a severe case of diarrhea, but the above are my thoughts on the situation. john h Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Bill Berle Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other aircraft. Test Flight Report for flight #2 I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick movement). I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller before the next test flight. After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the parts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the airplane left would actually be pulling it right. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM "John Hauck" True. Some. But not enough to get the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. When I originally built my MKIII, before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. Right about 85 mph, where the airplane and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. I was getting ready to do my flight around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. Don't know why my design didn't work, but Kolb's did. My design was ahead of the hinge line with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight Bill Berle Spades will add weight forward of the hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. Bill Berle On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber wrote: My understanding is that spades are for aileron flutter. Respectfully, Dennis BaberCape Coral, Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 Stay Curious The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 14 _____________________________ _______ Time: 02:35:34 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying experience with them .. I've found that the Kolbs are more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder t o keep them trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a lot of rotary wing stuck in my h ead after all these years. I don't know. Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated turn s. The aileron geometry is really good on Kolbs. Homer got that right. That's my experience and I am sticking to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little bipl ane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, wh ere I met them. They were a lot of fun. I didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his classic looking little bird. Landing was a no brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an Aeronca Champ. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Well guys, we have sure beaten this thread to death. And this I hope this will be the last of my input. Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. Youve now entered the world of flyin g an all new category of flight. You have developed some habits that will not se rve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former ultralight instructor I c an say with confidence that the worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots because, They already knew how to fly. That being said, youre not flying a 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butter fly or hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in wind direct ion, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines will change whats going on infli ght. Ultralights are not aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. Throttle back, down. Rudder is everythin g, learn to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, feet, feet ... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at cruise push it dow n and you might want to adjust you throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your thro ttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the friggin plane. Youre in charge. Fly it all the way to the ground and then keep flying it. Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn to fly it well. Get 50 ho urs in the air and on the ground in it and then maybe we might change some thin gs. Flying is easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > Kolbs produce negligible P-factor. Can't remember where I got that tidbi t. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash on the tail section, as you mentioned. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:27 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > > Hi Bill, > > Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. > > First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedomet er (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, the n repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect bu t is good for a quick verification. > > Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had q uite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the c onclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the ri ght side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher config uration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "s traighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. > > Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail unti l you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don' t change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confus e yourself and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they seem. Been there, done that. > > Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent an d climb out compared to "cruise"? > > You're doing great! Keep it up. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > > Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safe ty issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or e qual the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. > > Test Flight Report for flight #2 > > I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. > > The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I h ave described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 mil es per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft . I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabi lizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. > > Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. Th e aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the pro peller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. > > I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the ri ght significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified t his without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. > > So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would ha ve been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm hav ing trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. > > One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This see ms pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. > > This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get th e lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. > > The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy aileron s getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, bu t the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). > > I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engi ne RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into t he propeller before the next test flight. > > After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the pa rts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tai l by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. > > Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firesta r 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded en gine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM > > Hauck" > > True. Some. But not enough to get > the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of bala nce aileron. > > When I originally built my MKIII, > before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fa bricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right ou t of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I cou ld get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. > > Right about 85 mph, where the airplane > and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence woul d set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, t o Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. > > I was getting ready to do my flight > around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron cont rol linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. > > Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun > Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a g host and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lak eland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful a nd I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying wi th flutter for 10 years by this time. > > Don't know why my design didn't work, > but Kolb's did. > > My design was ahead of the hinge line > with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I s tuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation .. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS > First Flight > > Bill Berle > > Spades will add weight forward of the > hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber > wrote: > > My understanding is that spades > are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 15 _____________________________ _______ Time: 02:47:07 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 From: Gary Aman Bill ,dont be too sure about stall speeds until you can authenticate your a irspeed indicator.your prop create a swirl like a screw that twists around the fuse lage and that blast of air hits the side of the vertical and moves it.I think the mounts are straight.the vgs are doing their job, no sharp unexpected dr op,I raised the horizontal on my FS2 and still had to add some weight in the nos e to make it feel good. If I weighed 200# it would have been better .Kolbs ne ed to be a little closer to the forward end of the CG to feel right in my opin ion.I put heavier springs on pedals to stop the oscillations caused by the prop. > On Aug 9, 2018, at 1:15 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safe ty issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or e qual the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know fro m experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other a ircraft. > > Test Flight Report for flight #2 > > I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. > > The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I h ave described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 mil es per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft . I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabi lizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. > > Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. Th e aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the pro peller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same dir ection as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propel ler, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. > > I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the ri ght significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified t his without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. > > So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would ha ve been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm hav ing trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. > > One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This see ms pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports fr om several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH .. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again aft er speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first ti me. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significa nt buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead s tall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. > > This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get th e lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. > > The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy aileron s getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, bu t the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and th is was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I mov ed them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the o utboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of ailer on movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amou nt of stick movement). > > I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engi ne RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specif ically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into t he propeller before the next test flight. > > After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the pa rts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tai l by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. > > Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firesta r 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded en gine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the air plane left would actually be pulling it right. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM > > Hauck" > > True. Some. But not enough to get > the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the > out of balance aileron. > > When I originally built my MKIII, > before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron > flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance > weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I > fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple > flights went well during testing. Then, entering the > traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into > violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my > hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far > back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had > learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb > wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my > beautiful counter balance weights. > > Right about 85 mph, where the airplane > and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of > flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I > flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to > Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At > Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. > He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into > flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er > done. > > I was getting ready to do my flight > around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to > make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all > kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight > as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. > > Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun > Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He > was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got > on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL > strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week > later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from > Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced > aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month > from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been > flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. > > Don't know why my design didn't work, > but Kolb's did. > > My design was ahead of the hinge line > with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other > aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the > aileron because they aggravated the situation. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS > First Flight > > Bill Berle > > Spades will add weight forward of the > hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber > wrote: > > My understanding is that spades > are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 16 _____________________________ _______ Time: 02:58:02 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 I also have to disagree regarding the Kolb being a "rudder airplane". The s tock plans built Firestar has zero or maybe 1/2 degree of dihedral in the wings. At least on the plans I have. My Firestar has maybe 3 degrees total, or one an d one half degree each side. I did that as much for appearance as I did for a ny other reason. Also, as an old washed up model airplane pilot, having a litt le dihedral at least gives me a CHANCE to get back on the ground safe using ru dder if the entire control stick assembly falls out of the airplane :) But with this little dihedral, I cannot imagine the Kolb responding WELL to rudder like other "classic" ultralights, Quicksilvers, etc. But... I am without a doubt the world's LOWEST time Kolb pilot, about 35 or 45 minutes total flight time in this Firestar and maybe another 30 minutes in Jimmy's Mark 3. So I can easily be wrong. I understand completely what George is saying, I would be a much more diffi cult student for a UL instructor than someone with no flight time. The only thin g I will disagree with George about is that as a sailplane pilot we learned t o use the rudder continuously and we learned about micrometeorology, localized wi nds, eddy currents behind trees, etc. My big problem is that I remember all of this fondly but it has been 30 yea rs. So it is not at the front of my thinking anymore. Flying a lovely old antiq ue C-172 has spoiled me and put 9 years of rust on what were once reasonably g ood stick and rudder skills. (Part of why I wanted this airplane is because I wanted to grind off all th at rust. See if I could go back and find that young sharp pilot I used to know) With all sincere respect for John H, I will leave the spins and aerobatics in a Kolb to him. He recently posted on the Kolb List "If you want to do aerobat ics go get a Pitts..." Excellent advice :) Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance up grade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for no n-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 2:35 PM Hauck" I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying experience with them. I've found that the Kolbs are more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder to keep them trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a lot of rotary wing stuck in my head after all these years. I don't know. Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated turns. The aileron geometry is really good on Kolbs. Homer got that right. That's my experience and I am sticking to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little biplane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, where I met them. They were a lot of fun. I didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his classic looking little bird. Landing was a no brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an Aeronca Champ. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 George Helton Well guys, we have sure beaten this thread to death. And this I hope this will be the last of my input. Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. Youve now entered the world of flying an all new category of flight. You have developed some habits that will not serve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former ultralight instructor I can say with confidence that the worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots because, They already knew how to fly. That being said, youre not flying a 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butterfly or hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in wind direction, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines will change whats going on inflight. Ultralights are not aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. Throttle back, down. Rudder is everything, learn to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, feet, feet... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at cruise push it down and you might want to adjust you throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your throttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the friggin plane. Youre in charge. Fly it all the way to the ground and then keep flying it. Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn to fly it well. Get 50 hours in the air and on the ground in it and then maybe we might change some things. Flying is easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > Kolbs produce negligible P-factor. Can't remember where I got that tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash on the tail section, as you mentioned. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:27 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart Harner" > > Hi Bill, > > Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. > > First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, then repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect but is good for a quick verification. > > Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had quite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the conclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the right side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher configuration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "straighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. > > Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don't change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confuse yourself and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they seem. Been there, done that. > > Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared to "cruise"? > > You're doing great! Keep it up. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other aircraft. > > Test Flight Report for flight #2 > > I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. > > The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. > > Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. > > I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. > > So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. > > One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. > > This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. > > The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick movement). > > I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller before the next test flight. > > After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the parts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. > > Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the airplane left would actually be pulling it right. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John > Hauck" > > True. Some. But not enough to get > the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. > > When I originally built my MKIII, > before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. > > Right about 85 mph, where the airplane > and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. > > I was getting ready to do my flight > around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. > > Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun > Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. > > Don't know why my design didn't work, > but Kolb's did. > > My design was ahead of the hinge line > with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS > First Flight > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: > Bill Berle > > Spades will add weight forward of the > hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber > wrote: > > My understanding is that spades > are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 17 _____________________________ _______ Time: 03:22:09 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 My last aerobatic maneuver was 15 March 1990... Took 6 years from the time I first started flying Kolbs to learn my lesson. I still like to fly somewhat aggr essively, but without aerobatics. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 4:58 PM Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 I also have to disagree regarding the Kolb being a "rudder airplane". The s tock plans built Firestar has zero or maybe 1/2 degree of dihedral in the wings. At least on the plans I have. My Firestar has maybe 3 degrees total, or one an d one half degree each side. I did that as much for appearance as I did for a ny other reason. Also, as an old washed up model airplane pilot, having a litt le dihedral at least gives me a CHANCE to get back on the ground safe using ru dder if the entire control stick assembly falls out of the airplane :) But with this little dihedral, I cannot imagine the Kolb responding WELL to rudder like other "classic" ultralights, Quicksilvers, etc. But... I am without a doubt the world's LOWEST time Kolb pilot, about 35 or 45 minutes total flight time in this Firestar and maybe another 30 minutes in Jimmy's Mark 3. So I can easily be wrong. I understand completely what George is saying, I would be a much more diffi cult student for a UL instructor than someone with no flight time. The only thin g I will disagree with George about is that as a sailplane pilot we learned t o use the rudder continuously and we learned about micrometeorology, localized wi nds, eddy currents behind trees, etc. My big problem is that I remember all of this fondly but it has been 30 yea rs. So it is not at the front of my thinking anymore. Flying a lovely old antiq ue C-172 has spoiled me and put 9 years of rust on what were once reasonably g ood stick and rudder skills. (Part of why I wanted this airplane is because I wanted to grind off all th at rust. See if I could go back and find that young sharp pilot I used to know) With all sincere respect for John H, I will leave the spins and aerobatics in a Kolb to him. He recently posted on the Kolb List "If you want to do aerobat ics go get a Pitts..." Excellent advice :) Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance u pgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals f or non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 2:35 PM Hauck" I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying experience with them. I've found that the Kolbs are more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder to keep them trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a lot of rotary wing stuck in my head after all these years. I don't know. Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated turns. The aileron geometry is really good on Kolbs. Homer got that right. That's my experience and I am sticking to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little biplane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, where I met them. They were a lot of fun. I didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his classic looking little bird. Landing was a no brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an Aeronca Champ. ;-) john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 PM To: kolb-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 George Helton Well guys, we have sure beaten this thread to death. And this I hope this will be the last of my input. Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. Youve now entered the world of flying an all new category of flight. You have developed some habits that will not serve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former ultralight instructor I can say with confidence that the worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots because, They already knew how to fly. That being said, youre not flying a 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butterfly or hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in wind direction, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines will change whats going on inflight. Ultralights are not aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. Throttle back, down. Rudder is everything, learn to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, feet, feet... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at cruise push it down and you might want to adjust you throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your throttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the friggin plane. Youre in charge. Fly it all the way to the ground and then keep flying it. Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn to fly it well. Get 50 hours in the air and on the ground in it and then maybe we might change some things. Flying is easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" > > Kolbs produce negligible P-factor. Can't remember where I got that tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash on the tail section, as you mentioned. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stuart Harner > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 1:27 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart Harner" > > Hi Bill, > > Good to hear about your safe and successful 2nd. Flight. > > First question: Do you know your ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, then repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. Won't be perfect but is good for a quick verification. > > Next, yes to the clockwise prop and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We had quite a discussion about this back after my first flights. Short version of the conclusion is that prop wash hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the engine. Dead bugs collect on the right side of the vertical and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher configuration with a low boom tube presents no resistance between the prop and the tail unlike something more conventional that has all that covered fuselage to "straighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. > > Advice (on par with the price of it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, don't change more than one thing at a time between flights. You can easily confuse yourself and muddy the results by trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they seem. Been there, done that. > > Question two: How was the elevator pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared to "cruise"? > > You're doing great! Keep it up. > > Stuart > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 12:16 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill Berle > > Please let me clarify my comment so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any other aircraft. > > Test Flight Report for flight #2 > > I flew my Firestar again yesterday morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. > > The aircraft needed a few pounds of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would have been pretty large and bent pretty far. > > Also on the test flight, I paid specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was very surprising to me because the propeller turns the "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it was in flight. > > I briefly let off of the rudder pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being adjusted well. > > So I have a QUESTION for the experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT instead of left. > > One other thing I tried in flight was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when it did let go. > > This was disappointing, since I installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really short landings. > > The last thing I tried to pay specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick movement). > > I realized that I had taken too much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller before the next test flight. > > After the flight I spent the rest of the day making and installing the parts to raise the leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. > > Again, my most important question for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that should be pulling the airplane left would actually be pulling it right. > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS First Flight > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 5:10 AM > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John > Hauck" > > True. Some. But not enough to get > the job done, unless additional weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. > > When I originally built my MKIII, > before Kolb admitted there might be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some really neat counter balance weights and attached them, very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard end of each aileron. First couple flights went well during testing. Then, entering the traffic pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick as far back as I could get it, gets it out of flutter. I had learned that exercise early on with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter balance weights. > > Right about 85 mph, where the airplane > and I liked to cruise was right on the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was a tough flight, but we got'er done. > > I was getting ready to do my flight > around CONUS and up to Alaska, wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but I was still susceptible to flutter. > > Finally, the next year at Sun and Fun > Dick Rahill got the factory FS into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this time. > > Don't know why my design didn't work, > but Kolb's did. > > My design was ahead of the hinge line > with bullet shaped weights like I had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them on the wrong end of the aileron because they aggravated the situation. > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 11:42 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Firestar/HKS > First Flight > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: > Bill Berle > > Spades will add weight forward of the > hinge line, which is usually working AGAINST flutter. > > Bill Berle > > On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber > wrote: > > My understanding is that spades > are for aileron flutter. > > > Respectfully, > Dennis BaberCape Coral, > Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 > Stay > Curious > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 18 _____________________________ _______ Time: 03:39:23 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 I wasnt implying that Kolbs are rudder controlled aircraft. I apologize if that was way it was interrupted. The Kolb is the exception. My instructing was d one in Spectrum Beavers and Quiksilvers. High dihedral makes very stable, very rudder oriented aircraft. My Firestar is also aileron oriented. I to can cruise around with my feet f lat on the floor. And I love it. Homer did get it right. That being said, my Fi restar on takeoff and landing requires good foot work to be flown properly. Especi ally in crosswind conditions. Lazy feet and improper use of flight controls use on the ground make for expensive repairs. Time and money Id rather spend o n flying. My point is that you have learn to fly and enjoy your airplane, before you go making it a different airplane. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 5:57 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I also have to disagree regarding the Kolb being a "rudder airplane". The stock plans built Firestar has zero or maybe 1/2 degree of dihedral in the wings. At least on the plans I have. My Firestar has maybe 3 degrees total, or one and one half degree each side. I did that as much for appearance as I did for a ny other reason. Also, as an old washed up model airplane pilot, having a litt le dihedral at least gives me a CHANCE to get back on the ground safe using ru dder if the entire control stick assembly falls out of the airplane :) > > But with this little dihedral, I cannot imagine the Kolb responding WELL to rudder like other "classic" ultralights, Quicksilvers, etc. > > But... I am without a doubt the world's LOWEST time Kolb pilot, about 35 or 45 minutes total flight time in this Firestar and maybe another 30 minutes in Jimmy's Mark 3. So I can easily be wrong. > > I understand completely what George is saying, I would be a much more dif ficult student for a UL instructor than someone with no flight time. The only thin g I will disagree with George about is that as a sailplane pilot we learned t o use the rudder continuously and we learned about micrometeorology, localize d winds, eddy currents behind trees, etc. > > My big problem is that I remember all of this fondly but it has been 30 y ears. So it is not at the front of my thinking anymore. Flying a lovely old antiq ue C-172 has spoiled me and put 9 years of rust on what were once reasonably g ood stick and rudder skills. > > (Part of why I wanted this airplane is because I wanted to grind off all that rust. See if I could go back and find that young sharp pilot I used to know ) > > With all sincere respect for John H, I will leave the spins and aerobatic s in a Kolb to him. He recently posted on the Kolb List "If you want to do aerob atics go get a Pitts..." Excellent advice :) > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 2:35 PM > > Hauck" > > I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs > and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many > years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). > IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying > experience with them. I've found that the Kolbs are > more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder to keep them > trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and > taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a > lot of rotary wing stuck in my head after all these > years. I don't know. > > Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I > can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron > and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated > turns. The aileron geometry is really good on > Kolbs. Homer got that right. > > That's my experience and I am sticking > to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only > flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little > biplane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll > baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my > friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, > where I met them. They were a lot of fun. I > didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his > classic looking little bird. Landing was a no > brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that > attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I > can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or > not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an > Aeronca Champ. ;-) > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of George Helton > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 > > George Helton > > Well guys, we have sure beaten this > thread to death. > And this I hope this will be the last > of my input. > Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. > Youve now entered the world of flying an all new category > of flight. You have developed some habits that will not > serve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former > ultralight instructor I can say with confidence that the > worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots > because, They already knew how to fly. > That being said, youre not flying a > 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butterfly or > hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in > wind direction, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines > will change whats going on inflight. Ultralights are not > aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, > elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick > forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. > Throttle back, down. Rudder is everything, learn > to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, > feet, feet... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an > ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you > park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on > takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at > cruise push it down and you might want to adjust you > throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find > your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your > throttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! > ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the > friggin plane. Youre in charge. > Fly it all the way to the ground and > then keep flying it. > Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy > the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your > Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. > Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn > to fly it well. Get 50 hours in the air and on the ground in > it and then maybe we might change some things. Flying is > easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that > will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. > > George H. > Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John > Hauck > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "John Hauck" >> >> Kolbs produce negligible > P-factor. Can't remember where I got that > tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash > on the tail section, as you mentioned. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Stuart Harner >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 > 1:27 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Stuart Harner" >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> Good to hear about your safe and > successful 2nd. Flight. >> >> First question: Do you know your > ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app > for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, > then repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. > Won't be perfect but is good for a quick verification. >> >> Next, yes to the clockwise prop > and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. > P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We > had quite a discussion about this back after my first > flights. Short version of the conclusion is that prop wash > hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more > powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have > confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the > engine. Dead bugs collect on the right side of the vertical > and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher > configuration with a low boom tube presents no resistance > between the prop and the tail unlike something more > conventional that has all that covered fuselage to > "straighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. >> >> Advice (on par with the price of > it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper > cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, > don't change more than one thing at a time between flights. > You can easily confuse yourself and muddy the results by > trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they > seem. Been there, done that. >> >> Question two: How was the elevator > pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared > to "cruise"? >> >> You're doing great! Keep it up. >> >> Stuart >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 > 12:16 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Please let me clarify my comment > so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for > someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge > line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that > spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those > are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. > Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any > other aircraft. >> >> Test Flight Report for flight #2 >> >> I flew my Firestar again yesterday > morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more > confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet > above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. >> >> The aircraft needed a few pounds > of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described > before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only > 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a > properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I > needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a > couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would > have been pretty large and bent pretty far. >> >> Also on the test flight, I paid > specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required > five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, > again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also > needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was > very surprising to me because the propeller turns the > "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the > same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right > rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially > with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD > be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, > requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it > was in flight. >> >> I briefly let off of the rudder > pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. > The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified > this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this > problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being > adjusted well. >> >> So I have a QUESTION for the > experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb > engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The > way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb > fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into > the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to > compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm > having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a > "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT > instead of left. >> >> One other thing I tried in flight > was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny > starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of > altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having > read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I > fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I > slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this > again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had > actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 > indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant > buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle > straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when > it did let go. >> >> This was disappointing, since I > installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed > they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty > disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall > just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an > ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really > short landings. >> >> The last thing I tried to pay > specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better > at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were > already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has > adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far > higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was > again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the > ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along > their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron > waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were > moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I > am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess > whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the > same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick > movement). >> >> I realized that I had taken too > much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was > 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, > and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range > instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I > will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller > before the next test flight. >> >> After the flight I spent the rest > of the day making and installing the parts to raise the > leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the > tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. >> >> Again, my most important question > for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known > to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded > engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that > should be pulling the airplane left would actually be > pulling it right. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - > winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > -------------------------------------------- >>> On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck >> wrote: >> >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: > Firestar/HKS First Flight >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, > 5:10 AM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "John >> Hauck" >> >> True. Some. But not enough > to get >> the job done, unless additional > weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. >> >> When I originally built my MKIII, >> before Kolb admitted there might > be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some > really neat counter balance weights and attached them, > very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard > end of each aileron. First couple flights went > well during testing. Then, entering the traffic > pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into > violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of > my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick > as far back as I could get it, gets it out of > flutter. I had learned that exercise early on > with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. > Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter > balance weights. >> >> Right about 85 mph, where the > airplane >> and I liked to cruise was right on > the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off > quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to > Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and > then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo > shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing > to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was > a tough flight, but we got'er done. >> >> I was getting ready to do my > flight >> around CONUS and up to Alaska, > wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter > problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep > the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but > I was still susceptible to flutter. >> >> Finally, the next year at Sun and > Fun >> Dick Rahill got the factory FS > into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and > visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after > flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge > of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a > set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, > made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced > aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a > month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I > had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this > time. >> >> Don't know why my design didn't > work, >> but Kolb's did. >> >> My design was ahead of the hinge > line >> with bullet shaped weights like I > had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them > on the wrong end of the aileron because they > aggravated the situation. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On Behalf Of Bill Berle >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 > 11:42 >> PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: > Firestar/HKS >> First Flight >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: >> Bill Berle >> >> Spades will add weight forward of > the >> hinge line, which is usually > working AGAINST flutter. >> >> Bill Berle >> >> On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber >> wrote: >> >> My understanding is > that spades >> are for aileron flutter. >> >> >> Respectfully, >> Dennis BaberCape Coral, >> Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 >> Stay >> Curious >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 19 _____________________________ _______ Time: 04:00:50 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Absolutely! I agree with you 100%. Glad you set me straight. Every once in a while we get a rash of new pilots spreading the main gear a nd breaking airplanes because of what our buddy Pat Ladd, RIP, in England, called "Kolb quit". For some reason folks could not understand why the Kolb had t his nasty characteristic of falling out of the sky two or more feet above the a ir strip. Poor old Kolb had nothing to do with "Kolb quit", but it had everyt hing to do with pilot error, not flying the aircraft. Can't blame poor pilotage on the airplane. If we keep the Kolb above stall speed, it won't stall and it will not commit "Kolb quit". Best way to learn to fly the Kolb is get out there and fly a lot, every day if you can. The more you fly the more you learn about your Kolb. It is a sup er safe aircraft if flown reasonably. Normally, only time I broke something w as when I was pushing the limits, exploring unknown territory. You couldn't p ay me to do that stuff again. I don't have the guts or I have a lot more sens e now than I did 25-30 years ago. I believe in learning to fly the Kolb engine off, make dead stick landings. When the engine surprises you by getting real quiet, you'll know just what to do and how the aircraft will be with a dead stick. It is different from an id ling prop. The main thing is get out there and have fun with your Kolb. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@m atronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 I wasnt implying that Kolbs are rudder controlled aircraft. I apologize if that was way it was interrupted. The Kolb is the exception. My instructing was d one in Spectrum Beavers and Quiksilvers. High dihedral makes very stable, very rudder oriented aircraft. My Firestar is also aileron oriented. I to can cruise around with my feet f lat on the floor. And I love it. Homer did get it right. That being said, my Fi restar on takeoff and landing requires good foot work to be flown properly. Especi ally in crosswind conditions. Lazy feet and improper use of flight controls use on the ground make for expensive repairs. Time and money Id rather spend o n flying. My point is that you have learn to fly and enjoy your airplane, before you go making it a different airplane. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 5:57 PM, Bill Berle wrote: > > > I also have to disagree regarding the Kolb being a "rudder airplane". The stock plans built Firestar has zero or maybe 1/2 degree of dihedral in the wings. At least on the plans I have. My Firestar has maybe 3 degrees total, or one and one half degree each side. I did that as much for appearance as I did for a ny other reason. Also, as an old washed up model airplane pilot, having a litt le dihedral at least gives me a CHANCE to get back on the ground safe using ru dder if the entire control stick assembly falls out of the airplane :) > > But with this little dihedral, I cannot imagine the Kolb responding WELL to rudder like other "classic" ultralights, Quicksilvers, etc. > > But... I am without a doubt the world's LOWEST time Kolb pilot, about 35 or 45 minutes total flight time in this Firestar and maybe another 30 minutes in Jimmy's Mark 3. So I can easily be wrong. > > I understand completely what George is saying, I would be a much more dif ficult student for a UL instructor than someone with no flight time. The only thin g I will disagree with George about is that as a sailplane pilot we learned t o use the rudder continuously and we learned about micrometeorology, localize d winds, eddy currents behind trees, etc. > > My big problem is that I remember all of this fondly but it has been 30 y ears. So it is not at the front of my thinking anymore. Flying a lovely old antiq ue C-172 has spoiled me and put 9 years of rust on what were once reasonably g ood stick and rudder skills. > > (Part of why I wanted this airplane is because I wanted to grind off all that rust. See if I could go back and find that young sharp pilot I used to know ) > > With all sincere respect for John H, I will leave the spins and aerobatic s in a Kolb to him. He recently posted on the Kolb List "If you want to do aerob atics go get a Pitts..." Excellent advice :) > > Bill Berle > www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: > > Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 2:35 PM > > Hauck" > > I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs > and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many > years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). > IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying > experience with them. I've found that the Kolbs are > more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder to keep them > trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and > taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a > lot of rotary wing stuck in my head after all these > years. I don't know. > > Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I > can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron > and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated > turns. The aileron geometry is really good on > Kolbs. Homer got that right. > > That's my experience and I am sticking > to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only > flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little > biplane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll > baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my > friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, > where I met them. They were a lot of fun. I > didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his > classic looking little bird. Landing was a no > brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that > attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I > can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or > not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an > Aeronca Champ. ;-) > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of George Helton > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 > PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 > > George Helton > > Well guys, we have sure beaten this > thread to death. > And this I hope this will be the last > of my input. > Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. > Youve now entered the world of flying an all new category > of flight. You have developed some habits that will not > serve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former > ultralight instructor I can say with confidence that the > worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots > because, They already knew how to fly. > That being said, youre not flying a > 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butterfly or > hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in > wind direction, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines > will change whats going on inflight. Ultralights are not > aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, > elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick > forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. > Throttle back, down. Rudder is everything, learn > to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, > feet, feet... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an > ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you > park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on > takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at > cruise push it down and you might want to adjust you > throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find > your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your > throttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! > ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the > friggin plane. Youre in charge. > Fly it all the way to the ground and > then keep flying it. > Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy > the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your > Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. > Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn > to fly it well. Get 50 hours in the air and on the ground in > it and then maybe we might change some things. Flying is > easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that > will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. > > George H. > Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John > Hauck > wrote: >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "John Hauck" >> >> Kolbs produce negligible > P-factor. Can't remember where I got that > tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash > on the tail section, as you mentioned. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Stuart Harner >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 > 1:27 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "Stuart Harner" >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> Good to hear about your safe and > successful 2nd. Flight. >> >> First question: Do you know your > ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app > for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, > then repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. > Won't be perfect but is good for a quick verification. >> >> Next, yes to the clockwise prop > and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. > P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We > had quite a discussion about this back after my first > flights. Short version of the conclusion is that prop wash > hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more > powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have > confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the > engine. Dead bugs collect on the right side of the vertical > and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher > configuration with a low boom tube presents no resistance > between the prop and the tail unlike something more > conventional that has all that covered fuselage to > "straighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. >> >> Advice (on par with the price of > it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper > cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, > don't change more than one thing at a time between flights. > You can easily confuse yourself and muddy the results by > trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they > seem. Been there, done that. >> >> Question two: How was the elevator > pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared > to "cruise"? >> >> You're doing great! Keep it up. >> >> Stuart >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] > On Behalf Of Bill Berle >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 > 12:16 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / > Firestar Test Flight #2 >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: Bill Berle >> >> Please let me clarify my comment > so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for > someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge > line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that > spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those > are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. > Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any > other aircraft. >> >> Test Flight Report for flight #2 >> >> I flew my Firestar again yesterday > morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more > confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet > above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. >> >> The aircraft needed a few pounds > of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described > before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only > 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a > properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I > needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a > couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would > have been pretty large and bent pretty far. >> >> Also on the test flight, I paid > specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required > five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, > again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also > needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was > very surprising to me because the propeller turns the > "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the > same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right > rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially > with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD > be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, > requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it > was in flight. >> >> I briefly let off of the rudder > pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. > The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified > this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this > problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being > adjusted well. >> >> So I have a QUESTION for the > experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb > engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The > way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb > fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into > the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to > compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm > having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a > "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT > instead of left. >> >> One other thing I tried in flight > was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny > starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of > altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having > read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I > fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I > slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this > again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had > actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 > indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant > buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle > straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when > it did let go. >> >> This was disappointing, since I > installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed > they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty > disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall > just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an > ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really > short landings. >> >> The last thing I tried to pay > specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better > at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were > already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has > adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far > higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was > again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the > ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along > their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron > waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were > moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I > am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess > whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the > same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick > movement). >> >> I realized that I had taken too > much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was > 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, > and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range > instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I > will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller > before the next test flight. >> >> After the flight I spent the rest > of the day making and installing the parts to raise the > leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the > tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. >> >> Again, my most important question > for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known > to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded > engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that > should be pulling the airplane left would actually be > pulling it right. >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - > safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft > www.grantstar.net - > winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities > -------------------------------------------- >>> On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck >> wrote: >> >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: > Firestar/HKS First Flight >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, > 5:10 AM >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: "John >> Hauck" >> >> True. Some. But not enough > to get >> the job done, unless additional > weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. >> >> When I originally built my MKIII, >> before Kolb admitted there might > be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some > really neat counter balance weights and attached them, > very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard > end of each aileron. First couple flights went > well during testing. Then, entering the traffic > pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into > violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of > my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick > as far back as I could get it, gets it out of > flutter. I had learned that exercise early on > with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. > Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter > balance weights. >> >> Right about 85 mph, where the > airplane >> and I liked to cruise was right on > the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off > quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to > Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and > then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo > shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing > to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was > a tough flight, but we got'er done. >> >> I was getting ready to do my > flight >> around CONUS and up to Alaska, > wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter > problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep > the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but > I was still susceptible to flutter. >> >> Finally, the next year at Sun and > Fun >> Dick Rahill got the factory FS > into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and > visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after > flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge > of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a > set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, > made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced > aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a > month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I > had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this > time. >> >> Don't know why my design didn't > work, >> but Kolb's did. >> >> My design was ahead of the hinge > line >> with bullet shaped weights like I > had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them > on the wrong end of the aileron because they > aggravated the situation. >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On Behalf Of Bill Berle >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 > 11:42 >> PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: > Firestar/HKS >> First Flight >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted > by: >> Bill Berle >> >> Spades will add weight forward of > the >> hinge line, which is usually > working AGAINST flutter. >> >> Bill Berle >> >> On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber >> wrote: >> >> My understanding is > that spades >> are for aileron flutter. >> >> >> Respectfully, >> Dennis BaberCape Coral, >> Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 >> Stay >> Curious >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS > WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST > WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution > Web Site - >> support! >> >> -Matt Dralle, List > Admin. > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - > Navigator to browse > List Un/Subscription, > 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > via the Web Forums! > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > Email List Wiki! > - List Contribution Web Site - > support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > ________________________________ Message 20 _____________________________ _______ Time: 04:27:21 PM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Amen to that John. After living in SoCal for 43 years its taken some gettin g use to only having 4 or 5 flyable months a year living in the great white north .. Im over 70 now and still enjoy every moment that I get to spend in my old F irestar. I never did like that Kolb Quit crap. There is no substitute for real deadsticks. I never soloed a student without them experiencing one for real .. George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 9, 2018, at 7:00 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > Absolutely! I agree with you 100%. Glad you set me straight. > > Every once in a while we get a rash of new pilots spreading the main gear and breaking airplanes because of what our buddy Pat Ladd, RIP, in England, cal led "Kolb quit". For some reason folks could not understand why the Kolb had t his nasty characteristic of falling out of the sky two or more feet above the a ir strip. Poor old Kolb had nothing to do with "Kolb quit", but it had everyt hing to do with pilot error, not flying the aircraft. Can't blame poor pilotage on the airplane. If we keep the Kolb above stall speed, it won't stall and it will not commit "Kolb quit". > > Best way to learn to fly the Kolb is get out there and fly a lot, every d ay if you can. The more you fly the more you learn about your Kolb. It is a sup er safe aircraft if flown reasonably. Normally, only time I broke something w as when I was pushing the limits, exploring unknown territory. You couldn't p ay me to do that stuff again. I don't have the guts or I have a lot more sens e now than I did 25-30 years ago. > > I believe in learning to fly the Kolb engine off, make dead stick landing s. When the engine surprises you by getting real quiet, you'll know just what to do and how the aircraft will be with a dead stick. It is different from an idling prop. > > The main thing is get out there and have fun with your Kolb. > > > john h > mkIII > Titus, Alabama > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server @matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton > Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 5:39 PM > To: kolb-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 > > > I wasnt implying that Kolbs are rudder controlled aircraft. I apologize i f that was way it was interrupted. The Kolb is the exception. My instructing was d one in Spectrum Beavers and Quiksilvers. High dihedral makes very stable, very rudder oriented aircraft. > My Firestar is also aileron oriented. I to can cruise around with my feet flat on the floor. And I love it. Homer did get it right. That being said, my Fi restar on takeoff and landing requires good foot work to be flown properly. Especi ally in crosswind conditions. Lazy feet and improper use of flight controls use on the ground make for expensive repairs. Time and money Id rather spe nd on flying. > My point is that you have learn to fly and enjoy your airplane, before yo u go making it a different airplane. > George H. > Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth > 14GDH > Mesick, Michigan > gdhelton@gmail.com > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 9, 2018, at 5:57 PM, Bill Berle wrote : >> >> >> I also have to disagree regarding the Kolb being a "rudder airplane". Th e stock plans built Firestar has zero or maybe 1/2 degree of dihedral in the wings. At least on the plans I have. My Firestar has maybe 3 degrees total, or one and one half degree each side. I did that as much for appearance as I did f or any other reason. Also, as an old washed up model airplane pilot, having a little dihedral at least gives me a CHANCE to get back on the ground safe using ru dder if the entire control stick assembly falls out of the airplane :) >> >> But with this little dihedral, I cannot imagine the Kolb responding WELL to rudder like other "classic" ultralights, Quicksilvers, etc. >> >> But... I am without a doubt the world's LOWEST time Kolb pilot, about 35 or 45 minutes total flight time in this Firestar and maybe another 30 minutes in Jimmy's Mark 3. So I can easily be wrong. >> >> I understand completely what George is saying, I would be a much more di fficult student for a UL instructor than someone with no flight time. The only thin g I will disagree with George about is that as a sailplane pilot we learned t o use the rudder continuously and we learned about micrometeorology, localize d winds, eddy currents behind trees, etc. >> >> My big problem is that I remember all of this fondly but it has been 30 years. So it is not at the front of my thinking anymore. Flying a lovely old antiq ue C-172 has spoiled me and put 9 years of rust on what were once reasonably g ood stick and rudder skills. >> >> (Part of why I wanted this airplane is because I wanted to grind off all that rust. See if I could go back and find that young sharp pilot I used to know ) >> >> With all sincere respect for John H, I will leave the spins and aerobati cs in a Kolb to him. He recently posted on the Kolb List "If you want to do aerob atics go get a Pitts..." Excellent advice :) >> >> Bill Berle >> www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performanc e upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - winning proposal s for non-profit and for-profit entities >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck wrote: >> >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, 2:35 PM >> >> Hauck" >> >> I can't speak for other ULs, only Kolbs >> and a couple flights in the Howland Honey Bee (too many >> years ago to remember all its flight characteristics). >> IMHO Kolbs are not rudder airplanes, based on my own flying >> experience with them. I've found that the Kolbs are >> more aileron aircraft, with a little rudder to keep them >> trimmed, and of course more rudder on takeoff, landing, and >> taxiing. Maybe I'm different because I still have a >> lot of rotary wing stuck in my head after all these >> years. I don't know. >> >> Once the Kolb is trimmed up in yaw, I >> can put my feet on the deck, and fly the Kolb with aileron >> and elevator, trim ball centered, making coordinated >> turns. The aileron geometry is really good on >> Kolbs. Homer got that right. >> >> That's my experience and I am sticking >> to it. I can't speak for other ULs because I have only >> flown one other UL other than Kolbs, Burt Howland's little >> biplane, the Honey Bee. It was a little doll >> baby. Burt and Ellen Howland, rest in peace my >> friends, attended The Ultralight Flight Farm in NY, 1988-89, >> where I met them. They were a lot of fun. I >> didn't ask, but Burt offered me the chance to fly his >> classic looking little bird. Landing was a no >> brainer. Set it up on final at 25 mph, hold that >> attitude, and a tiny flare, it's on the ground. I >> can't remember if the Honey Bee was a rudder plane or >> not. Been too long ago. Certainly wasn't an >> Aeronca Champ. ;-) >> >> john h >> mkIII >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On Behalf Of George Helton >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 3:23 >> PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / >> Firestar Test Flight #2 >> >> George Helton >> >> Well guys, we have sure beaten this >> thread to death. >> And this I hope this will be the last >> of my input. >> Bill, you are are GA/ Sailplane Pilot. >> Youve now entered the world of flying an all new category >> of flight. You have developed some habits that will not >> serve you well in ultralight type aircraft. As a former >> ultralight instructor I can say with confidence that the >> worst times were spent converting GA pilots to UL pilots >> because, They already knew how to fly. >> That being said, youre not flying a >> 1400lb spam can anymore. Youre a butterfly or >> hummingbird. You need a new mind set. Every little change in >> wind direction, wind speed, thermals, hills and tree lines >> will change whats going on inflight. Ultralights are not >> aileron controlled aircraft. They are primarily rudder, >> elevator and throttle. You know how to control speed. Stick >> forward, fast. Stick back, slow. Throttle forward,up. >> Throttle back, down. Rudder is everything, learn >> to have busy feet. Takeoff, cruise and decent. Think feet, >> feet, feet... you cannot let you feet get lazy in an >> ultralight.Thats from the time you taxi to the time you >> park at the end of the flight. If the nose goes right on >> takeoff, push the left pedal. If your nose is lifting at >> cruise push it down and you might want to adjust you >> throttle a bit. Find your best climb speed and use it. Find >> your decent or guide speed and use it. Learn to feed your >> throttle in slowly on takeoff and redu! >> ce it slowly upon approach. Fly the >> friggin plane. Youre in charge. >> Fly it all the way to the ground and >> then keep flying it. >> Stop Engineering and go out and enjoy >> the airplane youve worked so hard at completing. Your >> Firestar will never fly like my Firestar or Johns MKIII. >> Learn to fly an ULTRALIGHT. Learn your airplane, and learn >> to fly it well. Get 50 hours in the air and on the ground in >> it and then maybe we might change some things. Flying is >> easy! Its landing and all the stuff on the ground that >> will screw ya up. Love ya man, go flying. >> >> George H. >> Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth >> 14GDH >> Mesick, Michigan >> gdhelton@gmail.com >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Aug 9, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John >> Hauck >> wrote: >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: "John Hauck" >>> >>> Kolbs produce negligible >> P-factor. Can't remember where I got that >> tidbit. Yaw problems on takeoff are probably prop wash >> on the tail section, as you mentioned. >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII >>> Titus, Alabama >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On Behalf Of Stuart Harner >>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 >> 1:27 PM >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Flutter / >> Firestar Test Flight #2 >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: "Stuart Harner" >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> Good to hear about your safe and >> successful 2nd. Flight. >>> >>> First question: Do you know your >> ASI is accurate? You can get a speedometer (GPS based) app >> for your phone and do a straight path for a couple of miles, >> then repeat the other direction for a quick and dirty check. >> Won't be perfect but is good for a quick verification. >>> >>> Next, yes to the clockwise prop >> and left rudder. My Firefly does exactly the same thing. >> P-factor should cause it to turn left but it does not. We >> had quite a discussion about this back after my first >> flights. Short version of the conclusion is that prop wash >> hitting the right side of the vertical stabilizer is more >> powerful than P-factor and easily overrides it. I have >> confirmed this by observing the tail while warming up the >> engine. Dead bugs collect on the right side of the vertical >> and the rudder deflects to the left. The pusher >> configuration with a low boom tube presents no resistance >> between the prop and the tail unlike something more >> conventional that has all that covered fuselage to >> "straighten out" the airflow between prop and tail. >>> >>> Advice (on par with the price of >> it): Don't go messing with the tail until you get the proper >> cruise set up with RPM/Pitch and confirm the ASI. Also, >> don't change more than one thing at a time between flights. >> You can easily confuse yourself and muddy the results by >> trying two things at once, no matter how un-related they >> seem. Been there, done that. >>> >>> Question two: How was the elevator >> pressure during the stalls, descent and climb out compared >> to "cruise"? >>> >>> You're doing great! Keep it up. >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >> On Behalf Of Bill Berle >>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2018 >> 12:16 PM >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Kolb-List: Flutter / >> Firestar Test Flight #2 >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: Bill Berle >>> >>> Please let me clarify my comment >> so it does not accidentally cause a safety issue for >> someone. I believe that adding weight forward of the hinge >> line works against flutter. BUT I did NOT mean to imply that >> spades would replace or equal the Kolb tip weights. Those >> are there for a reason, as many of you know from experience. >> Flutter would scare the s*** out of me in a Kolb or any >> other aircraft. >>> >>> Test Flight Report for flight #2 >>> >>> I flew my Firestar again yesterday >> morning for about 20-25 minutes. I was a little more >> confident in everything, so I took it right up to 1500 feet >> above the airport and flew several laps above the runway. >>> >>> The aircraft needed a few pounds >> of forward pressure on the stick, as I have described >> before. However, this was at an indicated airspeed of only >> 45 miles per hour. A lot slower than one would expect for a >> properly rigged aircraft. I realized at this point that I >> needed to raise the leading edge of the stabilizer as a >> couple of people have mentioned. A "trim tab" for this would >> have been pretty large and bent pretty far. >>> >>> Also on the test flight, I paid >> specific attention to the rudder trim. The aircraft required >> five or six pounds (guess) of LEFT rudder in level flight, >> again at the 40-45 mile an hour speeds I was flying. It also >> needs left rudder on takeoff to keep it straight. This was >> very surprising to me because the propeller turns the >> "conventional" direction, meaning that it is turning the >> same direction as a Cessna or J-3 Cub, where you need right >> rudder on takeoff. The torque from the engine, especially >> with a high ratio gearbox and a big wide propeller, SHOULD >> be trying to roll and yaw the aircraft to the left, >> requiring right rudder. But this is the opposite of how it >> was in flight. >>> >>> I briefly let off of the rudder >> pressure and the airplane yawed to the right significantly. >> The air flow direction and the view from the seat verified >> this without a doubt... so it does not seem that this >> problem could be caused by the rudder pedals not being >> adjusted well. >>> >>> So I have a QUESTION for the >> experienced Kolb builders/owners here: Dies the stock Kolb >> engine mount have a thrust offset angle built into it??? The >> way this aircraft is behaving would be explained by the Kolb >> fuselage having several degrees of RIGHT thrust built into >> the engine mounts. Perhaps this would have been done to >> compensate for engines that turn the other direction . I'm >> having trouble understanding how an engine that turns a >> "right hand" propeller is making it steer to the RIGHT >> instead of left. >>> >>> One other thing I tried in flight >> was to slow the aircraft down. This seems pretty funny >> starting from 40 and 45 miles an hour, but I had plenty of >> altitude. With the vortex generators installed, and having >> read the flight reports from several other Kolb owners, I >> fully expected the aircraft to stall at 30 MPH. But as I >> slowed down to 35 MPH it gently stalled. I repeated this >> again after speeding back up to 40, to make sure I had >> actually stalled it the first time. Once again at 35 >> indicated, it provided a fairly gentle stall. No significant >> buffeting or shaking before the break, but a pretty gentle >> straight-ahead stall with the nose dropping 20 degrees when >> it did let go. >>> >>> This was disappointing, since I >> installed the VG's specifically to get the lower stall speed >> they usually provide. To be honest, I was pretty >> disappointed, since the old Taylorcrafts and J-3 Cubs stall >> just under 40 MPH, and a big part of the reason I wanted an >> ultralight style aircraft was to fly really slow into really >> short landings. >>> >>> The last thing I tried to pay >> specific attention to was the heavy ailerons getting better >> at lower speeds. But again on this flight my speeds were >> already slow..I moved the stick left and right and it has >> adequate roll control, but the stick forces were far far >> higher than the elevator or rudder forces, and this was >> again at only 40 and 45 indicated. Looking out at the >> ailerons as I moved them, they were deflecting equally along >> their length... meaning that the outboard tip of the aileron >> waas moving as much as the inboard end of the ailerons were >> moving. The ailerons were not "twisting" very much. Since I >> am not yet familiar with the Kolb I was not able to assess >> whether the amount of aileron movement in flight was the >> same as it was on the ground (with the same amount of stick >> movement). >>> >>> I realized that I had taken too >> much pitch out of the propeller. The engine RPM was >> 5200-5300 when I was flying around at 40-45 miles an hour, >> and I specifically wanted to be in the "cruising" RPM range >> instead of maximum continuous power (which is 5800). So I >> will probably put two degrees more pitch into the propeller >> before the next test flight. >>> >>> After the flight I spent the rest >> of the day making and installing the parts to raise the >> leading edge of the tail. I raised the leading edge of the >> tail by 3/4 of an inch. using short steel extension plates. >>> >>> Again, my most important question >> for Kolbers is whether the Kolb Firestar 2 fuselage is known >> to have tight hand thrust offset built into the welded >> engine mount. Only this would explain why an engine that >> should be pulling the airplane left would actually be >> pulling it right. >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> www.ezflaphandle.com - >> safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft >> www.grantstar.net - >> winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities >> -------------------------------------------- >>>> On Thu, 8/9/18, John Hauck >>> wrote: >>> >>> Subject: RE: Kolb-List: >> Firestar/HKS First Flight >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Date: Thursday, August 9, 2018, >> 5:10 AM >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: "John >>> Hauck" >>> >>> True. Some. But not enough >> to get >>> the job done, unless additional >> weight is added to equal the out of balance aileron. >>> >>> When I originally built my MKIII, >>> before Kolb admitted there might >> be a problem with aileron flutter, I fabricated some >> really neat counter balance weights and attached them, >> very securely to 6061 plates I fixed to the inboard >> end of each aileron. First couple flights went >> well during testing. Then, entering the traffic >> pattern at my local airport, the MKIII went into >> violent flutter. Snatched the stick right out of >> my hand. Chopping power and corralling the stick >> as far back as I could get it, gets it out of >> flutter. I had learned that exercise early on >> with my US and FS, but Kolb wasn't buying it. >> Landed and promptly removed my beautiful counter >> balance weights. >>> >>> Right about 85 mph, where the >> airplane >>> and I liked to cruise was right on >> the edge of flutter. Turbulence would set it off >> quickly. I flew the MKIII in this condition to >> Sun and Fun 1993, to Homer's to paint the Lasers, and >> then to Oshkosh. At Oshkosh I had to fly a photo >> shoot with a Cessna 208. He was having trouble slowing >> to 85 and I was going into flutter at 85. It was >> a tough flight, but we got'er done. >>> >>> I was getting ready to do my >> flight >>> around CONUS and up to Alaska, >> wondering how I was going to make it with the flutter >> problem. I dreamed up all kinds of cures to keep >> the aileron control linkage as tight as possible, but >> I was still susceptible to flutter. >>> >>> Finally, the next year at Sun and >> Fun >>> Dick Rahill got the factory FS >> into severe flutter. He was white as a ghost and >> visibly shaken when he finally got on the ground after >> flying from Lakeland South to the UL strip on the edge >> of a severe thunderstorm. A week later I got a >> set of FS aileron counter balance weights from Kolb, >> made them fit my MKIII, and never again experienced >> aileron flutter. It was wonderful and I was a >> month from beginning my big flight of 1994. I >> had been flying with flutter for 10 years by this >> time. >>> >>> Don't know why my design didn't >> work, >>> but Kolb's did. >>> >>> My design was ahead of the hinge >> line >>> with bullet shaped weights like I >> had seen on other aircraft. Guess I stuck them >> on the wrong end of the aileron because they >> aggravated the situation. >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII >>> Titus, Alabama >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com >>> [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] >>> On Behalf Of Bill Berle >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2018 >> 11:42 >>> PM >>> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: Kolb-List: >> Firestar/HKS >>> First Flight >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted >> by: >>> Bill Berle >>> >>> Spades will add weight forward of >> the >>> hinge line, which is usually >> working AGAINST flutter. >>> >>> Bill Berle >>> >>> On Wed, 8/8/18, Denny Baber >>> wrote: >>> >>> My understanding is >> that spades >>> are for aileron flutter. >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Dennis BaberCape Coral, >>> Flbaberdk@gmail.com305-814-7218 >>> Stay >>> Curious >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >>> Navigator to browse >>> List Un/Subscription, >>> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >>> - MATRONICS >> WEB FORUMS - >>> via the Web Forums! >>> - NEW MATRONICS LIST >> WIKI - >>> Email List Wiki! >>> - List Contribution >> Web Site - >>> support! >>> >>> -Matt Dralle, List >> Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> The Kolb-List Email Forum - >> Navigator to browse >> List Un/Subscription, >> 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, >> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> via the Web Forums! >> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> Email List Wiki! >> - List Contribution Web Site - >> support! >> >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 21 _____________________________ _______ Time: 05:58:55 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Re: gear legs I frankly dont know; got them from Kolb for the Xtra I had then. I can measure if you want me to Fair winds, Russ > On Aug 7, 2018, at 10:59 PM, Vern wrote: > > > Do your gear legs fit a Mark 3 classic. I might be interested if they do. > > Thanks Vern > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482172#482172 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:50 PM PST US From: james.vanlaak@gmail.com Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spads Gents, I have mostly been enjoying other people's posts and staying quiet but decided there was enough safety issue here to comment. I was an F-106 and A-10 driver years ago and went on to a career in NASA spacecraft design. But my passion is aviation, and especially low and slow like Kolbs. As part of that I built an original Firestar and later owned a Mark3X. Loved them both but made a point to learn a lot about them too. Spades obviously lighten stick forces by adding aerodynamic balancing. They do this by digging in to the wind on the "other" side of the aileron hinge from what the pilot input is doing. This helps you deflect the aileron. And yes, Kolbs do have heavy ailerons, especially that M3X with flaperons. But Kolbs are very unusual in a very important way. The ailerons are heavy because they have lots of area with no aerodynamic balance. If the aileron structure were rigid, they would feel even heavier. That is because much of the movement you have in your stick comes from the aileron spar bending and twisting. I used to be amazed that even with a bunch of stick input on the M3 the tip of the aileron hardly moved at all. But what really got my attention was when I would stand at the wingtip and twist the aileron with the mass balance and see how easy it was to move it 3 or 4 inches after the stick had hit the stops. This is not what I consider to be a safety issue because that big aileron is trying to stay streamlined and will not do anything funny (assuming you have mass balanced the faster ones), but it is unusual in aircraft design. Now imagine that you have a spade out there on the end so that instead of the aileron spar bending against the predictable resistance of that big aileron there was a spade applying a booster force. I assume that with small spades like in the picture installed symmetrically the handling would not change too much, but it might. And if you did put just one on the aileron on that side would deflect much further both directions and could really mess with the handling. I love Kolbs which is why I read this list all of the time. And I would like all of you to enjoy them safely. Jim On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:16 PM, John Hauck wrote: > You might have had a problem testing with one spade. > > > If I decided to take on that task I'd do it with two. > > > Seems to me the spades need to balanced. One spade would be severely out > of balance, nothing to counteract the single spade except stick force. > Might be a hand full. > > > john h > > mkIII > > Titus, Alabama > > > *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Neilsen > *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2018 4:08 PM > *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Kolb-List: Spads > > > Was going to try one on one side first so if it snatched or ripped > something off the plane I might still have aileron control. Then I got > concerned and never went any further. > > > Thoughts > > > Rick Neilsen > > Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spads From: Bill Jim what about spades mounted at mid aileron? It seems to me that the spade will reduce the amount of strain and deformation of the aileron system components. Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T james.vanlaak@gmail.com wrote: >Gents, > >I have mostly been enjoying other people's posts and staying quiet but >decided there was enough safety issue here to comment. I was an F-106 and >A-10 driver years ago and went on to a career in NASA spacecraft design. >But my passion is aviation, and especially low and slow like Kolbs. As >part of that I built an original Firestar and later owned a Mark3X. Loved >them both but made a point to learn a lot about them too. > >Spades obviously lighten stick forces by adding aerodynamic balancing. >They do this by digging in to the wind on the "other" side of the aileron >hinge from what the pilot input is doing. This helps you deflect the >aileron. And yes, Kolbs do have heavy ailerons, especially that M3X with >flaperons. > >But Kolbs are very unusual in a very important way. The ailerons are heavy >because they have lots of area with no aerodynamic balance. If the aileron >structure were rigid, they would feel even heavier. That is because much >of the movement you have in your stick comes from the aileron spar bending >and twisting. I used to be amazed that even with a bunch of stick input on >the M3 the tip of the aileron hardly moved at all. But what really got my >attention was when I would stand at the wingtip and twist the aileron with >the mass balance and see how easy it was to move it 3 or 4 inches after the >stick had hit the stops. This is not what I consider to be a safety issue >because that big aileron is trying to stay streamlined and will not do >anything funny (assuming you have mass balanced the faster ones), but it is >unusual in aircraft design. > >Now imagine that you have a spade out there on the end so that instead of >the aileron spar bending against the predictable resistance of that big >aileron there was a spade applying a booster force. I assume that with >small spades like in the picture installed symmetrically the handling would >not change too much, but it might. And if you did put just one on the >aileron on that side would deflect much further both directions and could >really mess with the handling. > >I love Kolbs which is why I read this list all of the time. And I would >like all of you to enjoy them safely. > >Jim > >On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:16 PM, John Hauck wrote: > >> You might have had a problem testing with one spade. >> >> >> >> If I decided to take on that task I'd do it with two. >> >> >> >> Seems to me the spades need to balanced. One spade would be severely out >> of balance, nothing to counteract the single spade except stick force. >> Might be a hand full. >> >> >> >> >> >> john h >> >> mkIII >> >> Titus, Alabama >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- >> server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Neilsen >> *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2018 4:08 PM >> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com >> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Spads >> >> >> >> Was going to try one on one side first so if it snatched or ripped >> something off the plane I might still have aileron control. Then I got >> concerned and never went any further. >> >> >> >> Thoughts >> >> >> >> Rick Neilsen >> >> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC >> ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:32 PM PST US From: Larry Cottrell Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spads Why don't you give it a shot and see what happens. I wouldn't mind lighter forces myself. You are in probably the best situation to try this. Larry On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:50 PM Bill wrote: > > Jim what about spades mounted at mid aileron? It seems to me that the > spade will reduce the amount of strain and deformation of the aileron > system components. > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > > james.vanlaak@gmail.com wrote: > > >Gents, > > > >I have mostly been enjoying other people's posts and staying quiet but > >decided there was enough safety issue here to comment. I was an F-106 and > >A-10 driver years ago and went on to a career in NASA spacecraft design. > >But my passion is aviation, and especially low and slow like Kolbs. As > >part of that I built an original Firestar and later owned a Mark3X. Loved > >them both but made a point to learn a lot about them too. > > > >Spades obviously lighten stick forces by adding aerodynamic balancing. > >They do this by digging in to the wind on the "other" side of the aileron > >hinge from what the pilot input is doing. This helps you deflect the > >aileron. And yes, Kolbs do have heavy ailerons, especially that M3X with > >flaperons. > > > >But Kolbs are very unusual in a very important way. The ailerons are > heavy > >because they have lots of area with no aerodynamic balance. If the > aileron > >structure were rigid, they would feel even heavier. That is because much > >of the movement you have in your stick comes from the aileron spar bending > >and twisting. I used to be amazed that even with a bunch of stick input > on > >the M3 the tip of the aileron hardly moved at all. But what really got my > >attention was when I would stand at the wingtip and twist the aileron with > >the mass balance and see how easy it was to move it 3 or 4 inches after > the > >stick had hit the stops. This is not what I consider to be a safety issue > >because that big aileron is trying to stay streamlined and will not do > >anything funny (assuming you have mass balanced the faster ones), but it > is > >unusual in aircraft design. > > > >Now imagine that you have a spade out there on the end so that instead of > >the aileron spar bending against the predictable resistance of that big > >aileron there was a spade applying a booster force. I assume that with > >small spades like in the picture installed symmetrically the handling > would > >not change too much, but it might. And if you did put just one on the > >aileron on that side would deflect much further both directions and could > >really mess with the handling. > > > >I love Kolbs which is why I read this list all of the time. And I would > >like all of you to enjoy them safely. > > > >Jim > > > >On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:16 PM, John Hauck wrote: > > > >> You might have had a problem testing with one spade. > >> > >> > >> > >> If I decided to take on that task I'd do it with two. > >> > >> > >> > >> Seems to me the spades need to balanced. One spade would be severely > out > >> of balance, nothing to counteract the single spade except stick force. > >> Might be a hand full. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> john h > >> > >> mkIII > >> > >> Titus, Alabama > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:* owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list- > >> server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Rick Neilsen > >> *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2018 4:08 PM > >> *To:* kolb-list@matronics.com > >> *Subject:* Kolb-List: Spads > >> > >> > >> > >> Was going to try one on one side first so if it snatched or ripped > >> something off the plane I might still have aileron control. Then I got > >> concerned and never went any further. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thoughts > >> > >> > >> > >> Rick Neilsen > >> > >> Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC > >> > > -- *The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.* *If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:37 PM PST US From: Russ Kinne Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Flutter / Firestar Test Flight #2 Right on, JG - hope some people listen Russ K > On Aug 10, 2018, at 4:33 AM, JC Gilpin wrote: > > Sure wish folks would get into the habit of deleting the ever increasing tail of previous posts that follow their post....... > > JG ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:53 PM PST US From: james.vanlaak@gmail.com Subject: Kolb-List: Spades I am a big fan of aerodynamic balances for well balanced control forces, and I would love to see a nice set of spades for the Kolbs. But remember that right now only a small fraction of your ailerons are moving and contributing to the roll rate. If you put the aerodynamic balance in the middle there will be more movement in the outer part of the aileron and that would increase your rate. I like sprightly controls so sounds good at first blush. But remember there are 40 years of Kolbs flying with that springy aileron spar. you would be a bit more of a test pilot than when you build from a well established kit. I like that but not everybody does. Point is to understand the implications of your changes. One of the planes I built was a Talon II and it had its wing split between flaps and ailerons. With pushrod control to the middle of the ailerons they were nice and powerful yet reasonably light. I was comfortable in 15 knot direct crosswinds which is saying something when you land at 35 knots. But it was designed that way and I made no significant changes. Kolbs are great little airplanes with an excellent record. If you want to change it that is your right but do be careful. If I were going to build another one I would start with smaller ailerons outboard of nice big flaps. But that is just me. Jim ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:24 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Spads Why have spades at all? Why have VGs? Neither are a necessary mod. I put VGs on my MKIII after I flew it 3400 hours for the past 34 years. Then I got an itch to give them a shot. I did not need them to comfortably fly my aircraft. It was a novelty to give them a try. Yep, they helped a little. I could fly a few mph slower, and best of all VGs did help clean up my full stall landings. At my age I was not as sharp as I once was, and found myself occasionally screwing up my landings. I didn't need them but they did improve an already good handling airplane. I got mine from John Gilpin, STOL Speed VGs. You can also order them from Aircraft Spruce. What started this thread was a very low time Kolb pilot and builder. I think he has less than an hour flight time already. This is the same guy that initially came on the List denigrating Kolb's elevator hinge system. Had to go get an aerodynamic engineer to tell thousands of us Kolb pilots and builders that we were doing it wrong, not the way the book dictated. So...we've flown thousands of hours without losing a single elevator, yet we are flying in an unsafe condition according to these experts. Now...Bill Berle has flown his FS 20 minutes and he wants to redesign it because it does not fly the way he wants it to. Kolbs fly like Kolbs. That is one of the things that make them a unique aircraft, one that I have flown for many years. The reason I have stuck strictly to Kolbs is because I love them, the way they fly, the way they look, and best of all their superior crash worthiness. Maybe one of these days some of you all will be able to experience Kolb's crashworthiness first hand. I sincerely hope not. I too complained to Homer Kolb many, many years ago about his heavy ailerons. I thought they should be light like a rotary wing cyclic, the aircraft I had some experience flying. Homer told me to be gentle with the Kolb and it would do just what you wanted it to do. Homer was absolutely correct. Imagine that. I've learned to use Homer's advice and have been privileged to fly in some pretty exciting places in some pretty exciting weather. I don't ever recall wishing I had spades to get me out of any situation. I didn't need them to get me home. OK...something to think about when you're screwing with Kolb ailerons. Kolbs will not fly very long without aileron control. If you don't believe me, try to fly your Kolb with the ailerons locked, using rudder and elevator only. Those that put a bunch of dihedral in the wings can probably toot around all day flying without aileron input, but the plans built and rigged Kolbs won't. They'll maintain heading for a bit and then roll over and dive to the ground. Your rudder and elevators can't get you out of that situation. They will fly with one aileron. We've had folks lose aileron control on a single aileron. If Bill B wants nice light aileron control and can come up with safe, workable spades, that is fine with me. I am not trying to encourage Bill to stop his experimentation. That's what it is all about, but I prefer to fly my MKIII just the way it is without them. The above are my thoughts and opinions only. Not intended to influence anyone. I don't encourage anyone to do stuff the way I do it. Good luck Bill B. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama -----Original Message----- From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 6:49 PM Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Spads Jim what about spades mounted at mid aileron? It seems to me that the spade will reduce the amount of strain and deformation of the aileron system components. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.