---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/15/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:20 AM - How a Kolb Should Fly (Ralph B) 2. 08:08 AM - Re: How a Kolb Should Fly (Rick Neilsen) 3. 08:21 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill) 4. 09:39 AM - Re: How a Kolb Should Fly (Ralph B) 5. 10:43 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill) 6. 11:08 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (George Helton) 7. 11:57 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill) 8. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: How a Kolb Should Fly (John Hauck) 9. 08:52 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:46 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: How a Kolb Should Fly From: "Ralph B" I made this short video this morning to show how a Kolb should fly in calm air. My feet were neutral on the rudder pedals during this video. If your Kolb is well trimmed, it should fly like this. https://youtu.be/OmTtp7rqS7w -------- Ralph B Kolb Kolbra 912uls N20386 550 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482411#482411 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:14 AM PST US From: Rick Neilsen Subject: Re: Kolb-List: How a Kolb Should Fly Ralph/All Wow that is super but not normal. Most Kolbs are not going to fly straight and level for more than a second or two. It is always a challenge folding charts in flight. Don't get me wrong Kolbs are great flying airplanes and controlling them is easy. The require very little control pressure when properly configured but you need to fly them constantly. Mark did a fantastic job building that airplane! Personally I like to have airplanes trimmed to require just a small amount to back pressure. Did this with GA airplanes to, except when I needed to fold charts. Also Bill sounds very reasonable and knowable. His plane certainly isn't rigged like most Kolbs but come on guys lighten up. Seems like it might fly a bit slower flying so tail high but wrong or dangerous??? I certainly don't have that level on knowledge. I'm also in the opinion that the problem isn't out aft CG. Rick Neilsen Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 10:24 AM Ralph B wrote: > > I made this short video this morning to show how a Kolb should fly in calm > air. My feet were neutral on the rudder pedals during this video. If your > Kolb is well trimmed, it should fly like this. > > https://youtu.be/OmTtp7rqS7w > > -------- > Ralph B > > Kolb Kolbra 912uls > N20386 > 550 hours > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482411#482411 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:21:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: Bill Just landed after test flight #4. Aircraft is safe and controllable with stabilizer mount bolt 1.125" above original location. Still needs light forward stick. But not as much as before. NOW it is within the range of a simple trim tab. Ailerons are level with wing undersurface in flight, not trailing upward. Installed higher quality pitot/static probe and hooked static to airspeed indicator. Stall speed now down where it was expected, 30 mph. But level flight speed is still in the 40-45 mph range at 5300-5500 rpm. Putting on the windshield may solve part of this, but I still believe there is some other cause of the slow speed. I am willing to do any and all drag reduction, that is the fun part for an old sailplane racer. I also installed two rudder trim tabs which reduced the need for left rudder. That will now be manageable. So at least this is all moving in the right direction. Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T Rex Rodebush wrote: > >When I set up my wing I called Brian at TNK. He gave me the recommended wing and horizontal stabilizer angles in reference to the motor mounts. ie, get a digital level, set it on the motor mounts and zero it, then check both wings at several points and average the results. Same for the stabilizer. I would call Brian and get the angles for your model. > >Where you have your stabilizer now is so far from everyone else that something is definitely wrong. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482402#482402 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:05 AM PST US Subject: Kolb-List: Re: How a Kolb Should Fly From: "Ralph B" neilsenrm(at)gmail.com wrote: > Ralph/All Wow that is super but not normal. Most Kolbs are not going to fly straight and level for more than a second or two. > You've got that right, Rick. Only in calm air will a Kolb fly hands free for awhile if it's rigged properly. However, once trimmed up, it will be more fun to fly. I also have to say that a had a right roll problem once I installed the 912uls. I bought the U-joint adjusters from Kolb and it fixed that problem. I also have to credit Mark German for building a fine Kolb aircraft. I love his workmanship. -------- Ralph B Kolb Kolbra 912uls N20386 550 hours Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482420#482420 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: Bill I cannot find any reference in the 1993 plans that gives me the wing incidence angle. It shows "level" at 9 degrees for W&B but nothing about the angle between wing and fuselage. Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T Bill wrote: > >Just landed after test flight #4. Aircraft is safe and controllable with stabilizer mount bolt 1.125" above original location. Still needs light forward stick. But not as much as before. NOW it is within the range of a simple trim tab. Ailerons are level with wing undersurface in flight, not trailing upward. Installed higher quality pitot/static probe and hooked static to airspeed indicator. Stall speed now down where it was expected, 30 mph. But level flight speed is still in the 40-45 mph range at 5300-5500 rpm. Putting on the windshield may solve part of this, but I still believe there is some other cause of the slow speed. I am willing to do any and all drag reduction, that is the fun part for an old sailplane racer. I also installed two rudder trim tabs which reduced the need for left rudder. That will now be manageable. So at least this is all moving in the right direction. > >Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > >Rex Rodebush wrote: > >> >>When I set up my wing I called Brian at TNK. He gave me the recommended wing and horizontal stabilizer angles in reference to the motor mounts. ie, get a digital level, set it on the motor mounts and zero it, then check both wings at several points and average the results. Same for the stabilizer. I would call Brian and get the angles for your model. >> >>Where you have your stabilizer now is so far from everyone else that something is definitely wrong. >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482402#482402 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:41 AM PST US From: George Helton Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle I think youre doing fine Bill. As for speed? I wouldnt worry a lot about it right now. Your speed actually sounds pretty good. Learn to fly her at 45 or 50 thats good ultralighting speed. Work on your landings alittle. Im sure if you crank up the rpm itll do 55 or 65. You might have to push forward on the stick alittle more but, shell go faster. My little old Firestar loves cruising around at 52 to 55 mph. Go have some fun! George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 15, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Bill wrote: > > > I cannot find any reference in the 1993 plans that gives me the wing incidence angle. It shows "level" at 9 degrees for W&B but nothing about the angle between wing and fuselage. > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > > Bill wrote: > >> >> Just landed after test flight #4. Aircraft is safe and controllable with stabilizer mount bolt 1.125" above original location. Still needs light forward stick. But not as much as before. NOW it is within the range of a simple trim tab. Ailerons are level with wing undersurface in flight, not trailing upward. Installed higher quality pitot/static probe and hooked static to airspeed indicator. Stall speed now down where it was expected, 30 mph. But level flight speed is still in the 40-45 mph range at 5300-5500 rpm. Putting on the windshield may solve part of this, but I still believe there is some other cause of the slow speed. I am willing to do any and all drag reduction, that is the fun part for an old sailplane racer. I also installed two rudder trim tabs which reduced the need for left rudder. That will now be manageable. So at least this is all moving in the right direction. >> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T >> >> Rex Rodebush wrote: >> >>> >>> When I set up my wing I called Brian at TNK. He gave me the recommended wing and horizontal stabilizer angles in reference to the motor mounts. ie, get a digital level, set it on the motor mounts and zero it, then check both wings at several points and average the results. Same for the stabilizer. I would call Brian and get the angles for your model. >>> >>> Where you have your stabilizer now is so far from everyone else that something is definitely wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482402#482402 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:57:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: Bill Just spent 45 minutes on the phone with Duane at Kolb. Great guy! He also thinks the stabilizer should not be that high. He will show the pictures to Bryan. Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T Bill wrote: > >I cannot find any reference in the 1993 plans that gives me the wing incidence angle. It shows "level" at 9 degrees for W&B but nothing about the angle between wing and fuselage. > >Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > >Bill wrote: > >> >>Just landed after test flight #4. Aircraft is safe and controllable with stabilizer mount bolt 1.125" above original location. Still needs light forward stick. But not as much as before. NOW it is within the range of a simple trim tab. Ailerons are level with wing undersurface in flight, not trailing upward. Installed higher quality pitot/static probe and hooked static to airspeed indicator. Stall speed now down where it was expected, 30 mph. But level flight speed is still in the 40-45 mph range at 5300-5500 rpm. Putting on the windshield may solve part of this, but I still believe there is some other cause of the slow speed. I am willing to do any and all drag reduction, that is the fun part for an old sailplane racer. I also installed two rudder trim tabs which reduced the need for left rudder. That will now be manageable. So at least this is all moving in the right direction. >> >>Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T >> >>Rex Rodebush wrote: >> >>> >>>When I set up my wing I called Brian at TNK. He gave me the recommended wing and horizontal stabilizer angles in reference to the motor mounts. ie, get a digital level, set it on the motor mounts and zero it, then check both wings at several points and average the results. Same for the stabilizer. I would call Brian and get the angles for your model. >>> >>>Where you have your stabilizer now is so far from everyone else that something is definitely wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482402#482402 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:51 PM PST US From: "John Hauck" Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Re: How a Kolb Should Fly I flew this Kolbra not long after Mark built it. I can attest it is a good flying, well built Kolb. Had the 912 UL on it then. john h mkIII Titus, Alabama You've got that right, Rick. Only in calm air will a Kolb fly hands free for awhile if it's rigged properly. However, once trimmed up, it will be more fun to fly. I also have to say that a had a right roll problem once I installed the 912uls. I bought the U-joint adjusters from Kolb and it fixed that problem. I also have to credit Mark German for building a fine Kolb aircraft. I love his workmanship. -------- Ralph B Kolb Kolbra 912uls N20386 550 hours ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:39 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Back from the airport. This morning I got in a 30-35 minute test flight which included four or five landings. The stabilizer was raised to 1.125" above the original bolt hole for this flight. As I mentioned earlier, the aircraft flew acceptably well, the stick force was less than before. However, I understand my stabilizer is higher than almost any other Kolb. This has everyone up in arms, including Duane at Kolb, and including me, since I want to know what it so strange about the aircraft I am flying. As mentioned, I spent 45 minutes on the phone with Duane today at Kolb. He gave me the exact measurements that the wing and tail incidence is supposed to be on a Firestar 2. The WING incidence is set bu where you drill the hole in the main spar pin attachment at the steel fitting that rivets to the spar tube. The measurement is supposed to be 3 inches form the bottom surface up to the center of the hole. My aircraft is 3 and 1/16 inches HIGHER than the lower surface. This means that my wing will be 1/16 of an inch LOWER when the pin goes through the hole in the fuselage carry-through... which means my wing incidence is LOWER than a perfect plans built Firestar. By all logic this means that I should be pulling back on the stick a little, not pushing forward. The stock plans-built Firestar has the stabilizer bolt 3/8 of an inch above the top of the fuselage boom tube., Mine is a LOT higher than that as we can all see from the photos posted previously. So we have an aircraft that: 1) Has the main wing incidence very close to a perfect plans-built specification, and it is even 1/16 inch lower. 2) We have an aircraft that balanced at 32% of wing chord, and is allowed to go up to 37% of chord. 3) We have an aircraft that has the full-length, un-cut tailboom tube. 4) We have an aircraft that has no warps, twists, or bends in the wings (they are flat on the bottom, root to tip). 5) We have an aircraft that does NOT have the ailerons reflexed upward in flight with air loads on them. And yet the aircraft still has some amount of nose-up pitch with the stabilizer at 3/8 inch, 3/4 inch, AND 1.125 inch above the tailboom tube. I DO NOT want to raise it any higher, because the Kolb List and the Kolb Aircraft Company and a bunch of experienced Kolbers are already thinking it is way too high. It looks pretty darn high to me too. So today I put two small aluminum trim tabs on the elevator to "fine tune" the last little bit of trim so I can let go of the stick for two seconds. I did this because so far all the guesses and possibilities about the stabilizer angle and wing incidence and aileron position are apparently NOT the cause of this. Which means if we weigh& balance it agaain and it is NOT outside of the Kolb approved range... then you and me and everyone else is just about out of ideas. Unless Bryan Melborn knows something the rest of the Kolbers don't know, then everyone is out of ideas. I had also installed two small rudder trim tabs, which are 3/4 of the way to "fixing" the yaw trim. Today's test flight included some final approaches with little or no power. I paid attention to the rudder during these approaches,a nd sure enough the amount of left rudder needed is a lot less with little or no power. So my aircraft is not significantly "bent" or warped in the yaw directiton, the rudder trim issue is directly related to the engine and prop wash just like everyone suspected. So a rudder triim tab is an easy and obvious fix. Maybe someday in the future I will put the engine on at a different angle, but that will be after I have fun flying it for a while. Today's test flight also was equipped with a higher quality pitot and static probe, and it verified that the aircraft is making a lot more drag than it could be. 45 miles an hour cruise speed (downwind in the pattern) at 5600-5700 RPM. But I have not done any drag reduction on this aircraft yet, no fairings, no streamline struts, no tape over the control gaps, etc. etc. So I am guessing that I can find another 10-15 mph as I fiddle with the drag stuff. I was supposed to meet with the guy who did the weight and balance today but he had to postpone it till Friday. The only thing that would explain all of this aircraft's strange behavior is if it is REALLY tail-heavy, and I do not believe it is outside of the Kolb CG range. Anyway, again I REALLY appreciate everyone's interest and participation in trying to solve this puzzle. If any of the mroe highly experienced Kolb pilots want to come fly this aircraft themselves and try to figure it out, let me know. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 8/15/18, Bill wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2018, 11:56 AM Just spent 45 minutes on the phone with Duane at Kolb. Great guy! He also thinks the stabilizer should not be that high. He will show the pictures to Bryan. Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T Bill wrote: Bill > >I cannot find any reference in the 1993 plans that gives me the wing incidence angle. It shows "level" at 9 degrees for W&B but nothing about the angle between wing and fuselage. > >Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > >Bill wrote: > >>--> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill >> >>Just landed after test flight #4. Aircraft is safe and controllable with stabilizer mount bolt 1.125" above original location. Still needs light forward stick. But not as much as before. NOW it is within the range of a simple trim tab. Ailerons are level with wing undersurface in flight, not trailing upward. Installed higher quality pitot/static probe and hooked static to airspeed indicator. Stall speed now down where it was expected, 30 mph. But level flight speed is still in the 40-45 mph range at 5300-5500 rpm. Putting on the windshield may solve part of this, but I still believe there is some other cause of the slow speed. I am willing to do any and all drag reduction, that is the fun part for an old sailplane racer. I also installed two rudder trim tabs which reduced the need for left rudder. That will now be manageable. So at least this is all moving in the right direction. >> >>Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T >> >>Rex Rodebush wrote: >> >>>--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Rex Rodebush" >>> >>>When I set up my wing I called Brian at TNK. He gave me the recommended wing and horizontal stabilizer angles in reference to the motor mounts. ie, get a digital level, set it on the motor mounts and zero it, then check both wings at several points and average the results. Same for the stabilizer. I would call Brian and get the angles for your model. >>> >>>Where you have your stabilizer now is so far from everyone else that something is definitely wrong. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482402#482402 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message kolb-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Kolb-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/kolb-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/kolb-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.