---------------------------------------------------------- Kolb-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/21/18: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:46 PM - Identity Crisis (Bill Berle) 2. 07:34 PM - Re: Identity Crisis (Richard Pike) 3. 07:35 PM - Re: Identity Crisis (George Alexander) 4. 07:46 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Gary Aman) 5. 08:56 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle) 6. 08:56 PM - Re: Kolbers in Florida (big Al) 7. 10:26 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Richard Girard) 8. 11:10 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:14 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Kolb-List:Identity Crisis On the Kolb list, there have been several references by Richard Pike to the Kolb Mark 3 N420P, and the website oh2fly.net, with several modifications and upgrades to this aircraft. But the website appears to be George Alexander's website, again listing this same aircraft. Since I'm new around here, can someone explain how this aircraft N420P is associated with two different people? Richard is is you who did all the modifications, upgrades, fine tuning, and interesting stuff to "Old Poops", or was it George Alexander??? Is he the Grey Baron or are you? I'm confused..... Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/20/18, Richard Pike wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 20, 2018, 9:41 PM Pike" Adding VG's to the wing or the underside of the stab/elevator causes no pitch change. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482602#482602 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Identity Crisis From: "Richard Pike" Not complicated, but not obvious either. For a number of years our church website (bcchapel) hosted a lot of personal pages. (We bought a package as that was the cheapest way to go, and I and a number of other people in the church availed themselves of free bandwidth and put up their own web pages) Several years ago we dissolved the church and joined another larger congregation, and terminated the website. George Alexander graciously offered to host my Kolb page, and so I am now a subsidiary (?) client (?) hanger-on (?) moocher (?) of his web page hosting. It is his page, and I am merely a beneficiary, tagging along on his bandwidth. So if you want to email me, it is thegreybaron(at)charter.net The real Grey Baron was Bob Noyer, a distinguished contributor to this list for many years. He is gone now, so when we lost our church web site, (bcchapel.org) I could no longer be richardatbcchapel.org, so I adopted thegreybaronatcharterdotnet in honor of Bob. Thanks again, George! -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/potentially functional Rotax 277 (it went together today) Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482616#482616 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:53 PM PST US From: George Alexander Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Identity Crisis Richard:You explain it to Bill Berle.George On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:46 PM, Bill Berle wrote: On the Kolb list, there have been several references by Richard Pike to the Kolb Mark 3 N420P, and the website oh2fly.net, with several modifications and upgrades to this aircraft. But the website appears to be George Alexand er's website, again listing this same aircraft. Since I'm new around here, can someone explain how this aircraft N420P is a ssociated with two different people? Richard is is you who did all the modi fications, upgrades, fine tuning, and interesting stuff to "Old Poops", or was it George Alexander??? Is he the Grey Baron or are you? I'm confused..... Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com=C2- - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraf t www.grantstar.net =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- - winning proposals fo r non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/20/18, Richard Pike wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 20, 2018, 9:41 PM Pike" Adding VG's to the wing or the underside of the stab/elevator causes no pitch change. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal=C2- w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482602#482602 The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, =C2- =C2-=C2- - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! =C2- =C2- - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! =C2-=C2- - List Contribution Web Site - support! =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle From: Gary Aman my Firestar was heavy with Aerothane paint 417# empty,but within the cg range spec.It required forward stick.I raised the horizontal in 1/2 increments to a max of 2 1/2 above stock.still needed a trim spring (nose down).But it wallowed around in rough air like a boat climbing over a wake before returning to level flight.I added two small bags of shot, cannot remember the weight,sorry,to the nose cone which put it closer to the forward limit.I could not believe the difference that it made in the stability and handling.I then dropped the stabilizer down to about 1over stock and thats how it flew for the next 700 hrs.a 503 with an IVO and oil injection,5200 rpm static and 70mph at 5500rpm.I loved that FS. G.Aman FS2 503 750hrs MK3C jabiru 2200A 1060hrs > O n Aug 20, 2018, at 9:58 PM, Bill wrote: > > > Full throttle on takeoff and climbout gives me 5700-5800 rpm which is max continuous power. This yields 40-45mph climbing. I have not done extended full power in level flight yet but based on what I have seen so far I would expect 50-52mph and 6000 rpm. Brand new Tiny Tach installed per direct verbal installation instructions on the phone with their tech guy. Airspeed indicator tested with this same air probe stuck out thru the car sunroof, measured same as my car speedometer. Unless experienced Kolbers suggest otherwise, I will put on the short windshield as the next change. How much speed is typical improvement going from round to streamline struts?? > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > > Stuart Harner wrote: > >> >> Bill, >> >> Very glad it is not a CG problem and that it has been definitively ruled out. Sorry for the extra work, but the symptoms called for the effort to be expended. >> >> So now, we know that changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizers helped with the issue considerably even if it is "out of spec". >> >> We have already discussed the wing center section gap seal, and that would be my next area of experimentation. After all you can change that without making any structural changes and it is easy to go back to what you have. >> >> Another thought has occurred to me about your low airspeeds. A few questions: >> >> Have you done a static full power run to make sure you are getting proper RPM's? >> Or >> Have you done a full power run in the air while straight and level? >> >> Have you confirmed your tachometer with another device? >> >> Have you confirmed your ASI (I know you changed the pitot/static setup) to verify that you are truly getting what you are seeing? >> >> Idea for next flight. While straight and level, go to full throttle and see what happens. You only have to maintain it long enough to get a stable tachometer reading and to see what forces are required at the stick. >> >> At this point I am just tossing out random thoughts in hopes that something ticks in your mind to say "hey, what if I did this?". >> >> Hang in there, we're all pulling for you to figure this out. >> >> Some people like mysteries, I rather tent to like the solutions! >> >> Keep us informed, >> >> Stuart >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill >> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 3:35 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle >> >> >> OK we just did a second weight and balance to settle this issue. The aircraft was specifically put in the same configuration as it has been flown. Pilot wearing clothes, shoes, helmet, and a total of 6.5 gallons of fuel. Same digital scales. THIS Kolb has different landing gear legs than stock! Datum was wheel axles. Wing leading edge was 3.5" forward of datum. Main gear weights 331 and 300. Tail weight 67. Center of gravity was 18.36" aft of datun which is 21.86" aft of leading edge. 21.86" is 34.15% of the 64" wing chord specified by Kolb. So my CG is 34.15% which is significantly forward of the factory approved maximum of 37%. Actual flight weight in this configuration is 698 pounds, 27 pounds under gross weight. Empty weight, removing the weight of fuel and oil, works out to approx. 430. Heavier engine, tires, gear legs, exhaust, battery, and it had been painted twice. >> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T >> >> John Hauck wrote: >> >>> >>> That's a good system on the FF. I have also seen this accomplished >>> using a small lever instead of hooks. >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII >>> Titus, Alabama >>> >>> >>> >>> --> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Then there is the Firefly; we built it with this little spring loaded >>> device on the front of the stick because pitch trim changes depending >>> on how much fuel you have left. This is more than sufficient, you only >>> have to move it a notch or two from full fuel to minimum fuel. >>> >>> -------- >>> Richard Pike >>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>> Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 >>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:12 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle My proposed order of modifications is as follows: First, I want to put the windshield on, because that is one of the big differences between a "normal" Kolb and mine. Perhaps this will push the nose down a little bit. It will also add a few pounds to the front, which cannot hurt. John H mentioned that it was unlikely that the windshield would make a big difference, so I am not expecting a miracle, but the windshield adds comfort anyway and it's easy to put it on. Second, if the windshield does not do much, I will try the suggestion that John H and several others made, droop the ailerons a tiny little bit at a time and see if that brings the nose down. If it does bring the nose down without making the Firestar noticeably slower, then I will continue drooping the ailerons and lowering the stabilizer angle a little bit at a time. That will make a lot of people less nervous about this particular Kolb. Although the CG is within the factory spec, the third option is that I can start looking into what it will take to move the fuel tanks forward. This is not the most desirable option for me, because it will require structural modification and cutting perfectly good fabric off of the fuselage. But the way it is now I cannot allow other pilots lighter than me to fly the aircraft safely, and if I keep losing weight like I should then it will get closer and closer to being tail-heavy for real. This also seems to not make sense, because no other Kolbs that I know of NEEDED to move the fuel forward. I have seen website photos of Kolb owners that did it, but there are hundreds and hundreds of Kolbs that did not NEED this in order to balance the aircraft. There are several other options and possibilities, but none of these directly answer the big mystery of how and why a Firestar that is within the factory CG range, with a 210 pound pilot, would need a nose-down push on the stick. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/20/18, Bill Berle wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 20, 2018, 8:30 PM Berle Guys thank you all again for going down this bizarre rabbit hole with me. The aircraft flies reasonably well as it is now, with stabilizer jacked up "way too high" and additional trim tabs on the elevator. If I lowered the stabilizer back down then I would be going back to holding a lot of forward pressure on the stick, which I do not need or want to do.The only other option is a very very large trim tab ont he elevator, which would likely be 10-12% of the size of the elevator. This is also a lot less desirable to me. A large trim tab adds weight on the un-safe side of the elevator (for flutter issues),a nd also drags in the weeds when you are on the ground. Again, as it is right now I have 4 degrees of positive "decalage" angle at my current setting. This is relatively safe and very similar to Cessnas and J-3 Cubs and other "regular" airplanes.This tells me that the stock plans-built Kolb has something a lot more than that, maybe 8 or 10 degrees of decalage??? Wouldn't THAT sound excessive ? I have not heard back from Duane at Kolb Aircraft. When we last spoke he said he would talk with Bryan and get back to me via e-mail. I have no idea if they have just not gotten to it yet, or whether Bryan decideed that me and my airplane were just too crazy to get involved with :) Forgive me for being repetitive, but for reference, at this stage we have the following known configuration: Wing incidence measurement is almost perfectly matched to the measurement given to me by Duane at Kolb. Tail boom tube length has not been shortened form a stock Firestar 2. Fuselage tube structure is not obviously bent or patched, so the "upward angle" of the boom tube is likely the same as a stock FS2. Weight and balance verified at 34.15% of chord, clearly within Kolb's acceptable range for safe filght (20-37 %). One or two people have suggested that perhaps my exhaust coming out of the muffler is creating anose-up pitch, because the muffler is underneath the aircraft. I do not believe this is the case, because I have flown at low power settings, and the nose did not fall downward (which it would have done if the muffler "thrust" was lifting the nose). Perhaps all the effort I put in over months of screwing around, to keep the thrust line as low as possible, has hurt me ? If the Kolb wing and stabilizer angle were designed for a thrust line that was farther above the aircraft , and mine is a lot lower, then THAT would perhaps explain how there is a nose-up pitch... because the designers at Kolb were assuming I would have a higher thrust line that would push the nose down some ??? My thurst line (center of propeller) is 33.25 inches above the TOP of the tailboom tube. Is this significantly LOWER than most of the other Firestars? What is the height of the center or the prop above other Kolbers Firestar tailboom tubes? If everybody else's thrust line is 36 or 38 inches above the tailoom tube, then everyone else would have the engine pushing the nose down more than I do. If Kolb designed the Firestar's wing and tail angles for a thrust oline that was 36 or 38 inches high, and I only have 33.25 inches, then at least THAT would explain why my aircraft wanted to pitch upward and the other Kolbers don't have that problem. Another possibility is that having any windshield on the aircraft creates a nose-down pitch, and since I have no windshield then that nose-down pitch is missing on my aircraft.Again this sounds implausible, but it would explain this strange situation. Also, I have never flown mine without the VG's on the wing or tail. I had them on the first flight. Any Kolbers who have installed VG's... did this cause your aircraft to start pitching up where it did not do that without VG's??? Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8/20/18, George Helton wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: kolb-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, August 20, 2018, 7:51 PM George Helton Bill, those figures dont sound that bad to me. Im running a different engine of course. My original Firestars best climb rate is right at 45/46 mph. Straight and level 5500 rpm in calm air is 64/66 mph. That does require lots of forward stick pressure. It likes to cruise at 4800 to 5200rpm @ 52/55 mph. Obviously were running two completely different engines. My max. hp is 40 @ 5500rpm, thats what I consider max. rpm even though its actually 5800. My max. torque is 49ft.lbs @ 4800. So, airframe-wise( I dont think thats actually a word?) I think the performance numbers are in the ballpark. It would be nice to bring the horizontal stabilizer back where it belongs. But, its your decision. Keep tinkering. And enjoy some flying. Aero liftstruts? They claim 6 to 8 mph. But, that sounds alittle iffy to me? But, I did order a set of 3:1 aero fairings for mine so Ill let you know how they work, like maybe next week. I think I just threw some money down the drain? George H. Firestar, FS100, 2702 Hirth 14GDH Mesick, Michigan gdhelton@gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 20, 2018, at 9:58 PM, Bill wrote: > > --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill > > Full throttle on takeoff and climbout gives me 5700-5800 rpm which is max continuous power. This yields 40-45mph climbing. I have not done extended full power in level flight yet but based on what I have seen so far I would expect 50-52mph and 6000 rpm. Brand new Tiny Tach installed per direct verbal installation instructions on the phone with their tech guy. Airspeed indicator tested with this same air probe stuck out thru the car sunroof, measured same as my car speedometer. Unless experienced Kolbers suggest otherwise, I will put on the short windshield as the next change. How much speed is typical improvement going from round to streamline struts?? > > Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T > > Stuart Harner wrote: > >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Stuart Harner" >> >> Bill, >> >> Very glad it is not a CG problem and that it has been definitively ruled out. Sorry for the extra work, but the symptoms called for the effort to be expended. >> >> So now, we know that changing the angle of the horizontal stabilizers helped with the issue considerably even if it is "out of spec". >> >> We have already discussed the wing center section gap seal, and that would be my next area of experimentation. After all you can change that without making any structural changes and it is easy to go back to what you have. >> >> Another thought has occurred to me about your low airspeeds. A few questions: >> >> Have you done a static full power run to make sure you are getting proper RPM's? >> Or >> Have you done a full power run in the air while straight and level? >> >> Have you confirmed your tachometer with another device? >> >> Have you confirmed your ASI (I know you changed the pitot/static setup) to verify that you are truly getting what you are seeing? >> >> Idea for next flight. While straight and level, go to full throttle and see what happens. You only have to maintain it long enough to get a stable tachometer reading and to see what forces are required at the stick. >> >> At this point I am just tossing out random thoughts in hopes that something ticks in your mind to say "hey, what if I did this?". >> >> Hang in there, we're all pulling for you to figure this out. >> >> Some people like mysteries, I rather tent to like the solutions! >> >> Keep us informed, >> >> Stuart >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill >> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 3:35 PM >> To: kolb-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle >> >> --> Kolb-List message posted by: Bill >> >> OK we just did a second weight and balance to settle this issue. The aircraft was specifically put in the same configuration as it has been flown. Pilot wearing clothes, shoes, helmet, and a total of 6.5 gallons of fuel. Same digital scales. THIS Kolb has different landing gear legs than stock! Datum was wheel axles. Wing leading edge was 3.5" forward of datum. Main gear weights 331 and 300. Tail weight 67. Center of gravity was 18.36" aft of datun which is 21.86" aft of leading edge. 21.86" is 34.15% of the 64" wing chord specified by Kolb. So my CG is 34.15% which is significantly forward of the factory approved maximum of 37%. Actual flight weight in this configuration is 698 pounds, 27 pounds under gross weight. Empty weight, removing the weight of fuel and oil, works out to approx. 430. Heavier engine, tires, gear legs, exhaust, battery, and it had been painted twice. >> >> Sent from my Samsung Captivate(tm) on AT&T >> >> John Hauck wrote: >> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" >>> >>> That's a good system on the FF. I have also seen this accomplished >>> using a small lever instead of hooks. >>> >>> john h >>> mkIII >>> Titus, Alabama >>> >>> >>> >>> --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" >>> --> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Then there is the Firefly; we built it with this little spring loaded >>> device on the front of the stick because pitch trim changes depending >>> on how much fuel you have left. This is more than sufficient, you only >>> have to move it a notch or two from full fuel to minimum fuel. >>> >>> -------- >>> Richard Pike >>> Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) >>> Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 >>> Kingsport, TN 3TN0 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. The Kolb-List Email Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - via the Web Forums! - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - Email List Wiki! - List Contribution Web Site - support! -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:13 PM PST US From: big Al Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Kolbers in Florida I'm in Lakeland Fl My firefly is at x49 south Lakeland Airpark Call or email me Al 863. 838 0334. Skydiveal@ AOL.com Give you as much one on one with a kolb as you need! anytime you are welcom e. Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, August 20, 2018 Robpen5557 wrote: Looking for any Kolbers in Florida. I had contact with Al Rodenbush from La keland. But, haven=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t been able to contact him. Hope everything is okay with him. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m planning a trip to visit my Dad in late Sept. early October. Wanted to visit someone along the way who has a completed Kold I could look at and possiblely see the wings fold. I=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2m traveling from Texas through Louisiana sou th on I49 to I10 all the way to Lake City where I head south on I75. Please contact me if you or someone you know has a Kolb I could check out. I went to Oshkosh but The only had a firefly and wearn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t f olding the wings.. Plus they were being pelted with questions from all dire ctions. So, I still would like to sit in one, who knows ride if possible. A t least see one up close and perhaps fold the wings once. I=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2m not adverse to going out of my way 50 or even a hundred miles to see a Kolb. Thank You Robert Lobdell Waskom, Texas Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482575#482575 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:25 PM PST US From: Richard Girard Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Bill, Can't speak for the Firestar but I expect it would be similar to the Mk III. A proper gap seal and covering the lower frame on the Mk III DOUBLED its climb rate and greatly relieved stick pressure. The PFH had the opposite pitch issue, she was a lawn dart. I reset the wing angle of incidence to the least angle recommended by Kolb and lowered the horizontal stabilizer incidence and she still needed small trim tabs on the elevators. Then she flew with fingertip pressure on the stick. When you do get the HS where you want it, consider making seals for the gap between the HS and the boom tube. If it responds like the Mk III you'll find the rudder effectiveness much improved, to the point that you can level the wings while in a stall just like a 172, something a stock Mk III will not do. Rick Girard On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:41 PM, Richard Pike wrote: > > > Adding VG's to the wing or the underside of the stab/elevator causes no > pitch change. > > -------- > Richard Pike > Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) > Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 > Kingsport, TN 3TN0 > > Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really i s > amazing. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482602#482602 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- =9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light.=9D Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:19 PM PST US From: Bill Berle Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle Thank you Rick, but can you clarify what you mean by covering the lower frame? Do you mean the lower fuselage frame below the fuel tanks, or are you referring to the frame behind the cockpit under the wing, or something else. I have taped up the gap between the wing and aileron, including the torque tube. It seemed to make a difference but I was not set up for measuring anything. Bill Berle www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 8/21/18, Richard Girard wrote: Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle To: "kolb-list@matronics.com" Date: Tuesday, August 21, 2018, 9:00 AM Bill, Can't speak for the Firestar but I expect it would be similar to the Mk III. A proper gap seal and covering the lower frame on the Mk III DOUBLED its climb rate and greatly relieved stick pressure. The PFH had the opposite pitch issue, she was a lawn dart. I reset the wing angle of incidence to the least angle recommended by Kolb and lowered the horizontal stabilizer incidence and she still needed small trim tabs on the elevators. Then she flew with fingertip pressure on the stick.When you do get the HS where you want it, consider making seals for the gap between the HS and the boom tube. If it responds like the Mk III you'll find the rudder effectiveness much improved, to the point that you can level the wings while in a stall just like a 172, something a stock Mk III will not do. Rick Girard On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 11:41 PM, Richard Pike wrote: "Richard Pike" Adding VG's to the wing or the underside of the stab/elevator causes no pitch change. -------- Richard Pike Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops) Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/incredibly obnoxious Rotax 277 Kingsport, TN 3TN0 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/ viewtopic.php?p=482602#482602 ==== ============================== = -List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?Kolb-List ==== ============================== = FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com ==== ============================== = WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com ==== ============================== = b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution ==== ============================== = -- Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light. 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