Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:45 AM - Re: Kolbers in Florida (Robpen5557)
2. 04:48 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck)
3. 07:51 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Richard Pike)
4. 08:02 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle)
5. 08:44 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Rex Rodebush)
6. 09:18 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck)
7. 10:27 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Bill Berle)
8. 10:38 AM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Richard Pike)
9. 12:00 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (Jerry-TS-MkII)
10. 03:32 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck)
11. 03:35 PM - Re: Stabilizer Angle (John Hauck)
12. 05:06 PM - Kolb History (John Hauck)
13. 05:25 PM - Re: Kolb History (John Hauck)
14. 05:34 PM - Re: Kolb History (George Helton)
15. 06:07 PM - Re: Kolb History (John Hauck)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Kolbers in Florida |
Al Rodenbush. I somehow had you owning a Mark III but no matter, Im glad I got
in touch with you. Do you remember our conversation before Oshkosh. Im planning
on heading to Florida on the 29th of Sept. Probably stop for the night in
Tallahassee, then leave early Sunday to head to your place. Let me know if
that works for you. That would be Sunday AM the 30th of September. I will be
leaving the following Saturday most likely coming back the other way. So, if
that works better that would be great. Either one. Do, you know the other Kolbers
in Florida? Like Geroge Alexander in Palmetto, FL. Or John Dark in
Punta Gorda?
Thanks
Robert Lobdell
Waskom, TX
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482625#482625
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
Rick G/Kolbers:
Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The
result is a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer.
How do you compensate for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap
seals?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Girard
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
When you do get the HS where you want it, consider making seals for the
gap between the HS and the boom tube. If it responds like the Mk III
you'll find the rudder effectiveness much improved, to the point that
you can level the wings while in a stall just like a 172, something a
stock Mk III will not do.
Rick Girard
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
Use a strip of thin aluminum angle, taper it so the front is wider than the rear.
Paint it to match your airplane and glue a length of rubber u-channel along
the outside edge to barely touch the stab. Allows the stab to move fore and aft
a bit, and also to fold.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal w/potentially functional Rotax 277 (it went together
today)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482627#482627
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/gap_seal_961.jpeg
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
" Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The result is
a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer. How do you compensate
for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap
seals? "
Now I understand why the stabilizer front attach brackets have a little fore-aft
wiggle room in them. I always wondered why there was that extra space.
Forgive the intrusion, I cannot answer for Rick, but I can add something similar
that works from my experience with gliders. We use "wiper seals" or "wiper fairings"
on a lot of control surfaces. The sealing material or fairing attached
to one of the surfaces and just SLIDES on the other moving part with a small
amount of pressure holding it in place.
Same principle as a garage door seal, where it cannot be attached to both the garage
door and the floor. So the bottom of the seal slides on the floor as you
open the garage door.
In the case of the Kolb stabilizer, the seal also has to allow the stabilizer to
fold upward for storage.
One easy way to do this is to put weatherstrip foam tape on the "root rib" tube
of the stabilizer. Use thick enough weatherstrip that the non-adhesive edge of
the tape contacts the tailboom tube. Apply a layer of smooth tape over this
weatherstripping such that it is "wrapped around" from the top edge of the stabilizer
around the weatherstrip and then down around to the bottom edge of the
stabilizer.
The tape is stuck only to the stabilizer and the weatherstrip, and it is NOT stuck
or attached to the boom tube. The outside non-sticky smooth side of the tape
slides against the boom tube, held in place by the weatherstripping foam as
a "spring".
So when the stabilizer moves fore and aft the tape just slides agaainst the boom
tube, and when you fold up the tail for storage the seal just rotates out of
the way without interfering with the folding.
Because the stabilizer is at some angle to the boom tube, you may have to trim
and shape the weatherstrip to fit against the curve of the tube... do all of this
before you apply the outer layer of tape.
In practice it may turn out to be easier or more durable to mount the seal to the
boom tube instead of the stabilizer root, but the principle would be the same.
Slight pressure from the squishy foam weatherstrip pressing lightly against
the root edge of the stabilizer. I won't know which side is better to mount
the seal on until I start making seals for mine, but I am pretty confident that
the principle will work.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
Richard and all,
I have gap seals on everything but the horiz. stabilizer to tube. Have had no
problems with the rudder but am wondering if it would be worth it to add the gap
seal?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482629#482629
Message 6
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
Never encountered a problem with any of my Kolbs or others because they did not
have gap seals on horizontal stabilizer/tail boom or elevator/horizontal stabilizer.
Not saying that it would not improve performance, but I haven't found
a requirement to do so. Sort of like VGs. Over 3.400.0 hours without them.
No problems flying. After installation of VGs there was an improvement in stall
speed, slow speed flight, and landing. These were small improvements to an
already excellent flying aircraft.
One mph, more or less, improvement if stall speed when the aircraft is stalling
at 30-32 mph without them really isn't a big improvement, but it is an improvement.
What difference is it going to make in the long run?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
" Elevator hinges are very difficult to mount exactly centered. The result is
a little fore and aft motion of the horizontal stabilizer. How do you compensate
for that fore and aft movement with tail boom gap
seals? "
Now I understand why the stabilizer front attach brackets have a little fore-aft
wiggle room in them. I always wondered why there was that extra space.
Forgive the intrusion, I cannot answer for Rick, but I can add something similar
that works from my experience with gliders. We use "wiper seals" or "wiper fairings"
on a lot of control surfaces. The sealing material or fairing attached
to one of the surfaces and just SLIDES on the other moving part with a small
amount of pressure holding it in place.
Same principle as a garage door seal, where it cannot be attached to both the garage
door and the floor. So the bottom of the seal slides on the floor as you
open the garage door.
In the case of the Kolb stabilizer, the seal also has to allow the stabilizer to
fold upward for storage.
One easy way to do this is to put weatherstrip foam tape on the "root rib" tube
of the stabilizer. Use thick enough weatherstrip that the non-adhesive edge of
the tape contacts the tailboom tube. Apply a layer of smooth tape over this
weatherstripping such that it is "wrapped around" from the top edge of the stabilizer
around the weatherstrip and then down around to the bottom edge of the
stabilizer.
The tape is stuck only to the stabilizer and the weatherstrip, and it is NOT stuck
or attached to the boom tube. The outside non-sticky smooth side of the tape
slides against the boom tube, held in place by the weatherstripping foam as
a "spring".
So when the stabilizer moves fore and aft the tape just slides agaainst the boom
tube, and when you fold up the tail for storage the seal just rotates out of
the way without interfering with the folding.
Because the stabilizer is at some angle to the boom tube, you may have to trim
and shape the weatherstrip to fit against the curve of the tube... do all of this
before you apply the outer layer of tape.
In practice it may turn out to be easier or more durable to mount the seal to the
boom tube instead of the stabilizer root, but the principle would be the same.
Slight pressure from the squishy foam weatherstrip pressing lightly against
the root edge of the stabilizer. I won't know which side is better to mount
the seal on until I start making seals for mine, but I am pretty confident that
the principle will work.
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
What difference is it going to make in the long run?
I have no idea, it was only in response to another post regarding the tail seal.
I have no idea whatsoever if it is worthwhile aerodynamically. I think he commented
that a seal might make his fin or rudder more effective???
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
The only reason I gap sealed my stab to the boom tube was to possibly cut down
on drag.
Nothing changed.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Today we paint the fabric repair and fix the nose
bowl)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482632#482632
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
Richard,
Re: You can do a pretty good job of streamlining the round lift struts with a length
of aluminum flashing, folded over and JB Welded (Liquid Nails, double stick
carpet tape, etc) to your strut, with some aluminum duct tape around the front
side to seal it up. You only fair the rear side. Not ideal, but a great improvement
over a round tube.
Or you can get really serious like Jack Hart: http://jackbhart.com/firefly/firefly91.html
I did look at his link. And it makes me CRINGE when I think of someone A) sealing
up their most important part, and B) after sanding on the aluminum with a
drywall sponge block. Every scratch, (or carbon pencil mark) on aluminum, is
where it will break later!!
I have done lots of progressive composite work. The example shown was one piece,
with walls as thick as paper, and it weighed the same as one sheet of paper
too. While it's not a strut cover application, I'll be making similar sections
which are slightly thicker, removable, and won't be scratching the struts either!
My stabilizer gap seal will look like the aluminum one posted recently,
but will also be of composite materials. Great stuff, no corrosion, no stress
fractures!
Jerry
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482633#482633
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/paperthin_524.jpg
Message 10
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
I think I was talking about a mph or two stall speed when I am already at 30-32
mph.
How accurate is my ASI indicator at those slow speeds?
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Berle
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
On Wed, 8/22/18, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
What difference is it going to make in the long run?
I have no idea, it was only in response to another post regarding the tail seal.
I have no idea whatsoever if it is worthwhile aerodynamically. I think he commented
that a seal might make his fin or rudder more effective???
Bill Berle
www.ezflaphandle.com - safety & performance upgrade for light aircraft
www.grantstar.net - winning proposals for non-profit and for-profit entities
--------------------------------------------
Message 11
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Subject: | : Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle |
As I has said many times, the Kolb is the epitome of drag. Lift struts and
a 4 inch faring on the windshield did more than anything else on my FS.
After that, forget it. On the other hand fat tires/small tires made no
difference. I flew one Alaska flight with 6x6 tires and the next with 8x6.
Absolutely no difference.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Pike
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List:Stabilizer Angle
The only reason I gap sealed my stab to the boom tube was to possibly cut
down on drag.
Nothing changed.
--------
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kolb Firefly Part 103 legal (Today we paint the fabric repair and fix the
nose bowl)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0
Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is
amazing.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=482632#482632
Message 12
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A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are,
for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they
are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like
they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron
stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger
of not having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when
I got scared. ;-)
This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 13
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It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even proof
read that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a geriatric Kolber.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History
A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are,
for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they
are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like
they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron
stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger
of not having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when
I got scared. ;-)
<<...>>
This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Kolb History |
John, that has to be the prettiest Firefly of all time.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 22, 2018, at 8:25 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
>
> It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even proof r
ead that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a geriatric Kolber.
>
> john h
> mkIII
> Titus, Alabama
>
> From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@
matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM
> To: kolb-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History
>
> A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces are,
for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look like they a
re slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes it look like t
hey are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the right aileron stop
once during serious turbulence on landing. I was never in any danger of no
t having enough aileron authority. Was probably my overreaction when I got
scared. ;-)
>
> <<...>>
>
> This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies.
>
> john h
>
> mkIII
>
> Titus, Alabama
Message 15
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Bryan Melborn built and finished it. It was a beautiful airplane.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George Helton
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Kolb-List: Kolb History
John, that has to be the prettiest Firefly of all time.
George H.
Firestar
Mesick, Michigan
gdhelton@gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 22, 2018, at 8:25 PM, John Hauck <jhauck@elmore.rr.com> wrote:
It's Hell getting old. Change reflexed to drooped. I think I even
proof read that msg before I punched it off. Be patient with a
geriatric Kolber.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-kolb-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Hauck
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2018 7:06 PM
Subject: Kolb-List: Kolb History
A FF from 2004 that flew perfectly IIRC. Notice the control surfaces
are, for the most part, where they belong. Notice the ailerons look
like they are slightly below the bottom surface of the wing, which makes
it look like they are slightly reflexed. During that week I bumped the
right aileron stop once during serious turbulence on landing. I was
never in any danger of not having enough aileron authority. Was
probably my overreaction when I got scared. ;-)
<<...>>
This was Sun and Fun 2004. My how time flies.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
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